Mum Guilt Can Get In The Bin

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Hi It's analyse here from Muma MIA's parenting podcast, This Glorious Mess.

Do you get mum guilt? I'm sure you.

Do, whether it's about what you feel like you haven't done, or maybe it's about the things you have done, like a weekend away or.

Just taking time for you.

I'm dropping into your fee today to share an episode of This Glorious Mess all about mum guilt and to get the full perspective. We've invited a dad on the show to ask if he gets dad guilt. The answers will probably not shock you, but in some ways they also will surprise you. This is this glorious mess, and guilt can get.

In the bin.

Hello, and welcome to this Glorious Mess. We're embracing the chaos together, ditching the judgment. I'm Anali's todd and as well as.

Ditching the judgment.

We hope by the end of this episode we're ditching the guilt it needs to do on the bin Well, I'm teaking to Tolly and I'm a guilt to Hollegu, So I can't wait to find the guilt bin Well, I'm gonna help you find a teased because today on the show, we're diving into mum guilt, which.

I hate that. I hate that that's even a term.

Have you ever heard of dad guilt? No, no, you haven't. So while parent guilt is real for everyone, there's a unique type of guilt that many mothers experience, and it's something that impacts women in ways that men often don't feel. I think that we're going to find and it affects us every single day.

I feel like mum guilt is a truly wired thing, like and as you are a mum, you're wiring completely changes.

Or even I was thinking, for example, with my first pregnancy, all I could stomach was toasted cheese and tomato sandwiches, and then I felt guilty that I wasn't eating a range of nutrients because all I could eat was cheese, bread.

My gosh, it starts, it starts so early and we'll go into that later. But my gosh, there's some real cans of worms to open in the guilt depart.

Yeah, we want to hear from dads, and we're actually going to do that today, which I'm so excited for.

She's got her interrogation ready to go, her intermigation because.

We're actually going to chat to out this glorious mess songwriter and Dada three Tom lyons.

Well, she says, we're going to chat, but she's got to intomigate him.

I'm going to intermigate him because I want to find and really understand in heterosexual relationships, do they notice their partners carrying more guilt or even care?

Yeah.

See that's the interesting part.

Like I say to my husband all the time, like, oh my god, I feel so guilty, and he'd be like why, Like he just can't even fathom what I would feel guilty about, let alone feel guilty himself. Like he doesn't even understand my guilt.

It's not even a thought factor.

If one of my kids are upset and we go out for dinner or something, I'd be like, oh, I feel really bad, Like why.

Like what do you mean why?

Yes, first foughtigus I would like to dive into what's happening in my group chat. Recently, I went on a little cruise holiday.

Oh did you ever?

I did?

I watched it unfold yes on the Instagram.

Watch what happens live otherwise on his analytics' Instagram stories. And I went with my sons and my mum and it was beautiful and we had fun. But what I realized was I was sitting by the pool and having a little day cocktail and I just didn't have to do anything. And the kids ran around and they had found holiday friends and started a new little commune. And I thought, this is the ideal mum holiday. And I sent a group to my girlfriends and I said, we

They're keene. I think we should do it.

I have been longing for a cruise, like my husband is so not.

A cruiserh my god, we'll go together.

What I want to do is go on a cruise. Yes, I want buffet.

Breakfast, no cooking, no cleaning, no washing, no thinking.

I want a slippery dip thing on all the kids stuff that happens, shows and bingos by night.

Group work and circle work on the dance floor.

Oh, it's just everything in one place. I don't even have to drive anywhere.

You're stuck in a boat with me.

Okay, maybe I'm not a groupers anymore.

The evolution of mum guilt, which we have decided we hate that phrase.

Well, it just is what it is.

I know, but I don't want it to be.

But it is, But it is. It's a thing. It's not going away.

Even if there was the guilt bin, it would all just still be sitting in the guilt.

Bin, bubbling and boiling over like yeah.

Like all together and like pondering and like an infection spreading and multiplying.

Yes, it's like COVID in a bit.

You know, motherhood really opened a can of worms for me because I was never a guilty person, because I'm such a goody goody, like I never really did anything to feel guilty about motherhood. I reckon, I feel guilty every single day. Yeah, definitely, there's a level of guilt.

And yeah, like I said, mine started from the toasted cheese and tomato sandwiches when't Yeah.

So same mine.

So as soon as I found out I was having twins, I was like, oh my god, am I gonna love both of them enough?

I'm not gonna have enough love or maybe I'm not gonna be moth of them enough.

And then I had another one so quickly, so then it was like more guilt, like three times guilt. And then you feel so guilty that you need a break, and then you feel guilty about going on a brain.

Yeah, you feel guilty because you want time away from them. Then you get time away from them, and then you feel guilty about sending time away from and then you go back to work, which is lovely, but then you feel really that's.

When said, when I'm choosing the steam train of.

Guilt, I am choosing to do this over that, Like that's when you're like guilt in.

First dag and I remember, like, you know, scenes from picking up my youngest from daycare and he was like standing at the bars with his hands up screaming, and I.

Was like, they haunt you forever, kid jail. And I'm like, how long has it we doing this? Just an hour and a half. And I was like, oh, oh, you could have liked you could have said thirty seconds.

You know, I'll send me the text. He's fine now, yeah, just something like that anyway.

So then even now, so like we've talked about the journey from the first moments of impregnation.

Guilt.

I feel guilty that I gave my twelve year old phone and he spends a lot of time on his phone.

Yeah.

I feel guilty about letting my youngest watch a lot of YouTube.

Yep. Same.

I feel guilty when I miss something at school, like an award or like.

Oh they're the worst ones too, like because then they'll be like, oh why can't you come mom, or like oh you weren't there or.

You missed it.

Yeah.

The other day, like Benjo was getting an award and he had walked himself into the principal's office and said, hey, I'm getting a book award. Like book awards are like, sorry, I'm gonna feel guilty about saying this, but not that much of a big.

Deal, Like you just read.

A certain amount of books.

Like, yeah, now I tell guilty, but truly they're not that much of a big deal. He'd gone into the principal's office and said, Hey, I'm getting a book award. Can you call my mum and tell us she's got to come to assembly this sufternoon to watch for me to get it. So the principal emailed me and was like, hey, Banjo's just come in and asked me to tell you to come to assembly.

But I couldn't come. So then what did I do all day?

Felt guilty?

Of course I did feel guilty all day.

What was interesting becoming a single mum. It gave me so much time back so that now when I do things for myself, I don't have guilt because my kids aren't.

There wasn't an option. It's like, oh, it's guilt free, old free time.

So that's that is a relief because I've got time to do selfish things and I don't feel guilty about In terms of the working mother's guilt, I do have perspective on this. I was raised by a single mom who worked a billion hours, like eighty.

Hour weeks, yeah, which is pretty rare.

Yeah, for the nineties.

She had her own business and she worked a lot, and I do have core memories of being a very wingy child like me and my sister crying at the door. She'd have clients over and we'd be like mum. And I know that she's crippled with guilt from that time and the time that she missed, and now she tries to overcompensate with my kids.

And she's very, very very hands on her Grandmam when she's around.

I will say that as an adult reflecting on that time, all I have is gratitude. I don't have memories of being like, oh, I wish my mum was here, you know, I wish mum was doing this. I don't have memories. Yes, actually her missing out on you're.

Now looking back going wow, what she sacrificed for us, Like there's no bad. Oh she should feel really bad because she wass she missed my book award.

And I don't care about that now.

I can only just sort of live in gratitude and think, wow, look what she did.

Yeah, the sad what she missed out on. Yeah, and thank you mum.

And I hope and for anyone listening who's a working parent that is crippled by guilt.

I hope that really you get that.

Way off later in life when they're adults and they realize what you did.

Yeah, because I am a guilty colleague, I try to remind myself that those are my feelings. Like no one's making me feel bad or expecting me to feel bad, do you know what I mean? Like no one said like, oh, well, you didn't show up and I'm so so you should do. But like you know what I mean, Like this is all my creation of my own expectations. It's almost like we're so hard on ourselves and how we expect to be all the things all the time. Like we've got

And if you actually isolate the feeling, someone can't make you feel guilty.

No, it's completely from within yourself.

But then that's when I need to realize to just shut up.

Doesn't that mean if we can create it, can't we squash it? Oh?

Well, live if you say so.

We had a chat to some of the Muma Mere dad's and partners friends. We put a call out to this glorious mess listener, send us some of your dad voices because we want to hear from dads.

Does your partner feel dad guilt?

It's the same like do the men feel it? Our men and women wired differently.

And here's what they had to say.

I am sure that I have felt dad guilt.

I can't think of the scenario.

Maybe when I've upset her for some reason and I felt bad because she was crying.

In the last couple of years, I spent a fair amount of time working from home, and it's made me realize how much I missed when I was in the office every single day. The little conversations when they get home from school, going to see their sports days, their parents' nights, their assemblies, stuff that I never got to do while I was working full time in an office because it was just too much to be able to somehow get

I do feel dad guilt because quite regularly I forget which days of the week are sports uniform day versus regular school uniform day, and after you're reminded constantly, I forget what the boys are doing after school continuously, whether it's football, whether it's basketball, whether it's swimming. Who would know? But I do actually feel really guilty about that dad guilt.

What is that guilt? So we wanted to hear from the other side. We wanted to ask a man.

We want the intel, the goths, the tea, and ask a dad about his parental guilt, if he has any, does it exist? Tom Lyon, welcome back to this glorious mess.

Hello, it's so good to be back. I've been preparing for today talking about mental load with my wife last night, and I think, yeah, I've got a lot to learn, but I'm here to share guys.

So, Tom, do you get dad guilt? And if so, on what type of issues.

Do I get Dad?

Well?

Is the sky blue? I definitely get dad guilt. And I have to say, like hearing you guys before, mum guilt is far more pervasive than dad guilt. See everywhere for you, guys, I see that trade wives, trand and it's like you guys could be cooking a pasta. Are you cooking that pasta from scratch, or did you buy the shells from the shops? So I get it. It's more pervasive for you guys, but for men, we definitely

Can reach into your appendix and just like, give me a couple of tangible examples of what you felt guilty about.

Yeah, So we work so much these days. Life is so busy. I work from home, and my kids will often come to my door and want to play because they can't delineate when I'm working, when I'm not. Overall, I feel awful that I am missing out on key times with them, and I'm not connecting as much as I would like, a little voice in my head will be saying, you should have taught your three year old

As you can.

Yeah, I think presence would be a big one for particularly dads, because in a lot of cases they are the providers or often going off to work as well and not being there must play that part quite a bit.

Can I ask you, do you feel guilty like if you went out with your mates? Like would you be like, oh, I feel bad for missing out of time with the kids and going out in a boys' night.

Funnily enough, not at all.

See, this is the key difference.

This is different. This is the key difference.

Our brains are different, so that won't hit us, but something more, I guess subconscious level. For us. In the old days, how could get by on one income and the man was the main provider. And because of the world we live in now cost of living, that's not attainable for most And my wife and I both have big career dreams, so we wouldn't want it that way. But for a lot of men, there's still this unspoken expectation that we need to be the main provider so

Right, and when men get together, like when you are on your boys' night and you're not feeling guilty about being on your boys' night away from the children, do you sort.

Of sit around the mums at home with the child?

Yeah, do you sit around and do you talk about these feelings or do you talk about, oh, you know, I feel bad I haven't seen the kids much lately, or is it really just sport?

Oh man, this is going to disappoint you. We don't like.

Really disappointing at all. It's what we expected.

We're that surface level most of the time.

Okay, I've got one.

Do you feel guilty when you do something for yourself? So if you were like, oh, I've got us all back, so I'm gonna pop out and get a massage, or like, oh, I'm gonna go get a haircut because I'm jew or you know what, I'm just gonna go to the movie, Like there's this movie I want to see, So I'm going to go go watch a movie.

Yeah, I mean, when would I ever do that?

I don't know when I would. But I was getting to the bottom of my example.

Something for yourself.

If you're doing something like solely of your own benefit, in your own time, by yourself self care.

It's true. I've got a heavy self care routine that I implement, but I do have like a ticking clock in the back of my brain. So if I went to get a haircut and I knew Jessica had the kids at that point in time, I'm anxious to get back home. Yeah, and I would find it hard to relax in a massage.

I've got more. I've got more.

Yeah, do you worry?

It is an interrogation, Tom, Yes, sorry, Thomas is going to be a casual chat.

Another thing, Why am I strapped in this chair? What's this helmet I'm wearing?

What about things like?

So these were other things we're talking about before Oh, we're giving the kids too much screen time?

Are we rotting their brains on screens? Are they eating enough? Broccoly? Are they nourish enough?

Like do you sit around worrying about the things that you're not doing enough of or providing enough on that sort of tiny level and like micro level, do you worry about that stuff?

Definitely not. I so I worry about screen time. That's massive for me because the research says too much of it ain't good. But when it comes to food, in comparison to my lovely wife Jessica, she will turn the packet over, consider all the minutia of what is exactly inside of it, and feel awful if we're giving them a prepackaged dinner. And she really absorbs the brunt of that guilt where that sort of stuff doesn't cross my mind. Yeah, and I'm just being honest.

That is good.

Has your wife ever pulled you up about the difference in labor or difference in guilt or mental load and all those things.

Labor, no mental load. Absolutely, Like this is a huge thing in our marriage. Even over the weekend we were discussing it and I'm learning she's so awesome with a big picture. You know she might be doing those little annoying things like what's a childcare subsidy? Or when is Jones KINDI start date, Donnie has a Carols night coming up, and I might not even know about the Carols night until we're in the car. But I am making a

Yeah, that's true.

If she's got to write you a list, it's still it's still her load.

And in her delegating yeah, okay, that's still a work on for me. But as far as labor, we're very happy in that area. Like she does mornings with the children, I do the witching hour. Because of our work, I feel like that counts for double but that's another day. I do all the fixing odd jobs around the house, and then she might do a bit more of the planning. But overall, mental load is yeah, it's a big factor, and I'm still learning.

Well, it sounds like you're giving it a really good crack, so good on you.

We're on a journey, aren't we.

All.

Well, I feel like I've very much uncovered a lot of behind the mind of a man.

Yeah, the inner sanc thing in his world.

There's not a lot of guilt going on.

That's what I mean by the look on your face, Annalise, there wasn't a single surprise in there.

I just feel like it just comes down to wiring. We're wired differently.

We really are.

Absolutely are we wasting more mental load getting the shits at men for them home? It's like, why don't we just acknowledge we are wired differently? So let's think of some productive things to do. Like you said, Okay, if there's a bit of a list, I know it's not fixing the problem that you're still having to think of it first, but at least I can take a few things off that list, Like that's helpful.

So we need to rewire our brains to be more like and literally, when we have that little pang of guilt rising up in your chest, out of your tummy into your heart, just push it down and say what would Tom do?

Wwtt store it in your appendix.

Oh, and then, and then, and then get your appendix removed and put it in the bin.

I don't know, appendix. Maybe that's why I have so much guilt.

No, mum, guilt's in the binch.

That's it.

We've solved it.

You don't need it.

Thank you so much, Tommy for sharing your your life and your lack of guilt and giving us a little peek behind the curtaining to your marriage behind.

Tommy. Also, we are loving your.

Silly and glorious songs and so our this glorious miss listeners.

Please keep them coming.

We're going to send you more challenges because it just brings so much joy at a time when we all really need it.

I love doing it. I'm working on something for Christmas, so and mental load as well, because that's a yeah, that's a big thing. And I'm working on understanding Christmas mental loads. So that's on the way.

We love it already.

Well, I think that was great insight into even just opening up the conversation with your partner. I know it, Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of times I'm like, oh my god, I feel so guilty and just like what but just getting to understand each other's thought processes about the mental load and about feeling guilt and maybe how we can help each other. Yeah, I think I think it's an important conversation. I'm sure people are not having with their partners, Like Tom is one person, but

Each other's yet.

And sometimes I like when I talk to Jason about how I feel guilty and then when he's like so like it kind of calms me down a bit because I'm like, oh, okay, all right, I'll just put that one back in my appendix.

As Tom would say.

So let's officially call it I'm guilt.

I can't. I'm not sure if I can officially do.

It, but I'll join the the way of risk the pencil in an operation for appendix and roove on next.

Actually don't have any appendix. I'll join the ritual in binning the guilt. Yes, but we might have to do an update on whether or not it's working.

It'll be an evolution. Yeah, I don't think this is going to happen checking in six months.

Yeah, let's do it.

Well, thank you for listening to this glorious mess. We've hoped you've binned your guilt and you've enjoyed the episode. And if you've loved it, we hope you could leave us a rating or review.

And if you have a dilemma you'd like Sarah Marita solve or even maybe a song from Tom or anything else we can intommigate him on.

We love intermmigating.

Tell us what we can intomigate him on next. You can leave us a voice note by following the link in the show notes, or get in touch at TGM at mamamea dot com dot au, or find us on socials.

Yes.

This episode was produced by Grace we Breay with audio production by Lou Hill.

Bye, see you next time.