Hell and Gone Murder Line: Jennifer Judd Pt. 2

guilty in a court of law. Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening.

if there was something that police missed. As we said last week, there were several things that were unusual going on in the day Jennifer was murdered, including the fact that at around eleven forty five that day, Justin's friend Chuck Chance, showed up at Justin's work. Chuck hung out with Justin for a couple of hours and was with him when he shift ended at two thirty. Then they

drove back to Justin and Jennifer's apartment. When Justin got home, he noticed that Jennifer's car was in the driveway, and when he and Chuck got to the door, it was unlocked. Once they got inside, Justin found a horrific sight. Jennifer was lying on the kitchen floor in a pool of blood. Her killer had attacked her and stabbed her multiple times with so much for that the knife broke off in her body, and the killer went back for a second knife.

Last week, we talked about how over the years police considered several suspects, but so far no one has been arrested or charged. Jennifer's case, however, does have ties to a man who claimed to have killed over twelve women around the country and was charming enough to be nicknamed the redneck Ted Bundy, and this serial killer wasn't just

a random stranger. He actually knew Justin Judd. He was someone who lived in Baxter Springs, was Justin's neighbor, and when on a killing spree shortly after Jennifer was murdered. I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past eight years of making my true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've learned that there's no such thing as a small town where murder never happens. I've received hundreds of messages from people all around the country asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them,

their families, and their communities. If you have a case you'd like me and my team to look into, you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight seven four four, six one four or five. That's six seven eight seven four four, six, one four or five, or you can send us a message on Instagram at Helen Gonepod. This is Helen Gone

Murder Line. We talked to Justin and he told us last week that, according to what he had been told by police, law enforcement considered his friend shut Chance a suspect, but Justin still has questions about Chuck's story. Justin claims that back when they first talked to police, he believed he caught Chuck in an inconsistency.

mind there's still something there. We went to the police station and we both wrote down, you know, they want to detail everything that happened that day, from what you had for breakfast, you know, every little detail you could remember of your day. And I wrote that down, you know, and he'd done all his stuff down, and there was

a discrepancy. He told me at work that he went to a job interview in Pittsburgh, which is a few miles away, and then he went to his sister's house, which lived out by my parents outside of Quapas, and changed clothes and then come to my work. Well, he calls me and he says, why did you tell the KBI that I went to my sisters and changed clothes and I said, well, because you told me you went to your sister's and changed clothes, doesn't No, I didn't.

And right then, that's whenever I thought, because the KBI was already trying to convince me that you know, this is the guy that had done it. And right then I just told him, I said you better get a lawyer and hung the phone up. And what she did, and he pled the fifth and then come to find out he'd actually went to the bank in Commers and

went to his house and Commers and stuff. In my mind, the reason why he wanted to recant on telling me that he went to his sisters is because his sister had a babysitter there and he didn't actually go to his sisters, So you know, he knew they was going to be asked a question, so he tried to racing that part of the story. So his stories just didn't add up on what he done that day.

Justin's work. Because Chuck told police he and Justin had talked about going to the gym that afternoon after they left Justin's work and stopped to check on Jennifer. Justin said they did talk about going to the gym that afternoon, but he questioned why Chuck would have stopped at the gym twice that day. He said, twice a day workouts were not something that Chuck did normally, so Justin questioned that part of the story.

Most studies mentioned twenty five or more stab winds and other factors like victims being positioned in sexual poses after death. We have not seen crime scene photos, so we don't know for sure if Jennifer's body was moved, but just And did mention it seemed to him as though her shirt might have been pulled over her stab wounds, he believed, maybe in an attempt to disguise them, or maybe just because her body was moved slightly which pulled the shirt up.

But from what Justin described and what has been publicized about the crime scene, Jennifer's body did not appear to be overtly sexually staged. There was physical evidence at the crime scene, including fingerprints on the knife piece that was sticking out of Jennifer's back, but law enforcement has never publicly revealed exactly what kind of testing was done on that murder weapon. Over the years, there have been several people named as possible suspects by police. One was a

man named Jeremy Jones. Jeremy Jones was born on April twelfth, nineteen seventy three. In nineteen ninety, he was a teenager and assaulted a high school classmate of his. That classmate's mother actually came to the young man's defense, and then Jeremy turned on the mom and assaulted her as well. But Jeremy could turn on the charm. Charges in that assault were eventually dropped, and in high school, apparently he was a ladies man who hooked up with a lot

of women. In nineteen ninety five, Jeremy was arrested for his first rape, but he paid his bill and was released. In nineteen ninety six, Jeremy was arrested in Oklahoma. This time he was charged with rape and possession of methamphetamy. He was convicted of the drug charges and sentenced to two years in prison. Jeremy mainly worked odd jobs in construction for many years. He traveled around and did not have a fixed address. After being paroled in nineteen ninety seven,

he was re arrested in connection with the rapes. He ended up pleading guilty to assault and sexual harassment and was put on probation for five years. In two thousand, a warrant was issued for his arrest. He became a suspect in two more rapes. Jeremy moved to Joplin, Missouri, and met a woman whose son was in prison. The son's name was John Paul Chapman, so Jeremy ended up using his charm to convince John Paul Chapman's mother to sell him her son's identity for fifty dollars. From that

moment on, Jeremy Jones became John Paul Chapman. In October of two thousand and three, Jeremy was arrested in Georgia. He was charged with indecent exposure and disorderly conduct when he was arrested, even though since two thousand he was technically a wanted man and there were warrants out on him.

When law enforcement finger printed Jeremy, and when his prints were run through the FBI's Integrated Automatic Fingerprint Identification System, law enforcement got a match, but not to his real name, Jeremy Jones. Instead, police got a hit to his alias, John Paul Chapman. So police never figured out that this guy's real name was Jeremy Jones, or that he was wanted in Oklahoma on a rape charge. Instead, he was

released the next year. In two thousand and four, Jeremy was arrested again, this time charged with criminal trespassing, but once again that finger printing system failed. Once again, Jeremy was released. This happened two more times. He would be arrested and charged and released after the finger printing system failed to find a match. This meant that Jeremy Jones was a free man, free to rape and free to kill. And it wasn't long before he found his next victim.

On September eighteenth, two thousand and four, Hurricane Ivan was hitting Mobile, Alabama hard. In that chaos, forty four year old Lisa Marie Nichols was fatally shot in her home in Turnerville, Alabama. Her killers set her body on fire in her bathroom. The fire spread and burned down her house. Lisa's mutilated body was found among the smoldering remains of her home. After his arrest in two thousand and four, police discover Jeremy Jones had shown up at the home

of a local couple who lived near Lisa. He was pretending to be John Paul Chapman. The couple believed him and they let him do some construction work. At some point, Lisa Nichols, who was a neighbor, showed up at their house. Jeremy waited until everyone had left, then he took a six pack of beer to Lisa's house, where he broke in and raped her. Police found a fingerprint on a

beer can at the crime scene. When they ran it, it was a match for John Paul Chapman, but when they sent the information on John Paul Chapman to Missouri, the authorities in Missouri said the real John Paul Chapman was behind bars there. So authorities tracked down John Paul

Chapman's last known address. They talked to his mother. That's when they realized that John Paul Chapman they were looking for was actually someone else, and the real John Paul Chapman's mother gave law enforcement the name of the man who'd bought her son's id for fifty dollars, Jeremy Brian Jones. Police arrested Jeremy a few days after Lisa's remains were found. At first, he denied killing Lisa, but eventually he confessed to her rape and murder. But that was just the beginning.

Jeremy Jones eventually confessed to more than a dozen murders across several states, and one of them was Jennifer Judd. In fact, Jeremy said Jennifer Judd was his first killed. After getting arrested for the murder of Lisa Nichols, Jeremy ended up admitting to thirteen murders in six states. He told police he had killed even more people, he said as other victims were sex workers, mainly concentrated in the areas of Atlanta, Georgia, and Mobile, Alabama. Jeremy said that

he had murdered Jennifer Judd in nineteen ninety two. But was that actually true. Was Jeremy Jones credible or did he just confess as he later claimed, to get better conditions in prison, or maybe because he had nothing to lose or to gain status inside prison, Jeremy was telling the truth about at least some of his crimes. There were three murders the police were able to link him to definitively. One of his victims was a sixteen year old named Amanda Greenwell. She went missing on March twelve,

two thousand and four. Her remains were found in Douglasville, Georgia, a few weeks later. Amanda had been stabbed multiple times and strangled. Jeremy's girlfriend, Vicky Freeman, provided some corroborating evidence. When police talked to Vicki, she told them that on the day Amanda Greenwell vanished, Jeremy had come home from doing drugs for days, and when he came home, he

had unexplained scratches on him. Police were all also able to conclusively link Jeremy to the brutal murder of Catherine Collins. Catherine's body was found in February of two thousand and four in New Orleans. Jeremy said he met Catherine Collins in the French Quarter when he went to New Orleans for Marty Grass. He said he ended up doing methamphetamine

during a week long binge. He claimed he and Catherine went to an abandoned house to do drugs and have sex, but he said after she took her clothes off, he refused to pay her. He said after that they got into an argument and that Catherine tried to run away, but he said he tackled her to the ground while she was naked and stabbed her multiple times. He told police, quote the bitch deserved it end quote. Jeremy said he stabbed Catherine Collins in the eye, strangled her, and mutilated

her vagina. After examining Catherine's autopsy report and comparing her injuries to the ones Jeremy described, police decided his story matched her graphic and horrific injuries, and so they charged him with Catherine's murder. Police took Jeremy's confessions of meth fuel murder seriously. They believe there could be more victims out there. They searched Jeremy's storage unit in two thousand

and four. They found photographs of several different women. They made these photos public and asked that anyone who knew who these women were to come forward. So the women did. One was one of Jeremy's family members, others just some random women he knew. Eventually, all of the women were identified from those photos. They were all confirmed as being alive and safe. One of Jeremy's alleged victims was Tina Mayberry. Tina was stabbed to death after attending a Halloween party

in Douglasville, Georgia. She was at a place called Gibson's Restaurant. In two thousand and two, She went outside and came back inside the bar covered in blood. This attack happened very quickly. She was rushed to the hospital but lay or died of her stab wounds. Like in Jennifer's case, there was no robbery and no obvious signs of rape or sexual assault. However, police were unable to link Jeremy to that killing, but they did find out that he

had been in that area. Jeremy Jones was a regular at Gibson's during that time period, so some of his confessions are unclear, and in other cases he appeared to be stretching the truth or lying outright, like the unsolved kidnapping and murder of sixteen year old Laura Bible and Ashley Freeman, along with Ashley's parents, Kathy and Danny Freeman in Welch, Oklahoma. Laura and Ashley were two friends who were hanging out at Ashley's house to celebrate her sixteenth

birthday on December twenty ninth, nineteen ninety nine. Early the next morning, on December thirtieth, law enforcement responded to reports of a fire at the house. Once the blaze was extinguished, they found the bodies of Ashley's parents, Danny and Kathy inside the home. Both of them had been fatally shot before the home was set on fire. Laura and Ashley

were gone. No trace of them was ever found. During that two thousand and four confession, Jeremy claimed he had killed the two teens and dumped their bodies in a mind shaft that mine was a real place, but when police searched in the spot where Jeremy claimed he dumped

the remains, they found no trace of the teen's bodies. Later, Jeremy recanted these confessions, but police couldn't figure out how even though he lied about the body locations, how Jeremy seemed to have details about that crime scene, details police say had not been made public at that time. In twenty eighteen, a local drug dealer named Ronnie Dean Busick was arrested in charge with four counts of first degree

murder in connection with Ashley and Laura's murders. Witnesses told police that Ronnie and two other men, Warren Philip Welch the second and David Pennington, who were both dead at the time of Ronnie's arrest, bragged about holding the girl's captive and eventually raping and murdering the teens and taking photographs of them. The torture and the fate that these young women suffered was horrific, but there was no evidence

that Jeremy Jones was involved in any way. Jeremy also claimed he killed Patrese Andres, a mother who worked at a hairdressing salon in Coming, Georgia on April fifteenth, two thousand and four. Patrese was having a normal day at work, and then sometime during lunch, in what police later said was only a thirteen minute window of time, she vanished without a trace. Patrese's lunch was still there at the salon Uneaten, her car was parked outside in the parking lot.

She was just gone. Jeremy told investigators that he dumped her body into a creek, but when police looked in the area where Jared described disposing of her remains, they found nothing. He blamed his wrong information on the fact that he had been on meth at the time. Jeremy blamed a lot of his wrong information on the fact that he was doing a lot of drugs. That he was on meth at the time of a lot of the killings. He said because of that drug use, his

memory was faulty. Later, though, on December six, two thousand and five, Patrese's remains were found behind Lebanon Baptist Church in Dawson County. Now, this was sixty to seventy miles from where Jeremy Jones claimed he had dumped Patrese. Patrese's case, by the way, is still unsolved, so after they realized Jeremy had given them wrong information, police started doubting Jeremy's

involvement in the other murders he was claiming. But Jeremy had been telling the truth about the murders of Lisa, Catherine and Amanda, like the unsolved murder of Tina Mayberry, which Jeremy claimed to have committed, though police were never able to conclud lusively link him to that killing. Jeremy was in proximity of the place where Justin and Jennifer lived, Baxter Springs, and it turned out he also knew Justin

Judd personally. It's been reported that Jeremy was in the Baxter Springs area in nineteen ninety two, but that he broke up with his girlfriend in late nineteen ninety two and left the area. But there have also been a lot of rumors online about Jeremy's connection to Justin Judd that aren't true that they were friends in high school. For example, Justin says he never met Jeremy until years later in the mid nineties after Jennifer's murder. At the time,

Justin was married. He said Jeremy moved next door to him with his girlfriend at the time. Justin claim they never even had a real conversation, though he said he did hear Jeremy and his girlfriend getting into loud arguments. Jeremy Jones had claimed that he and Justin hung out together and said that never happened. Jeremy Jones also claimed that at one point he worked with Chuck Chance. We have no idea if that's true or not. Again, Jeremy Jones lied a lot, so we have to take everything

he said with a massive grain of salt. Was Jeremy Jones lying or telling the truth about Jennifer Judd. That's what Jennifer's family was trying to figure out after he confessed. Some of them wondered if Jeremy could have been the stalker who was supposedly frightening Jennifer. Remember, Jennifer's father said that Jennifer thought someone might have been following her to work, and later that someone had pounded on the door and

scared her. Jeremy Jones claimed that he stalked Jennifer for several days before he showed up to her apartment and fatally stabbed her. According to what Jennifer's father said in the press, Jennifer told someone at her apartment complex that she had gotten freaked out when a few days before the murder, someone was pounding on the front door hard. She believed they were trying to get inside, so she actually ended up hiding behind the sofa and the person

eventually went away. Could Jeremy Jones have been the person who knocked on Jennifer's door that day. Jeremy told police that he met Jennifer at a party. He claimed they started seeing each other romantically and that they were having an affair at the time of the murder. Now, Jennifer's family says these claims are ridiculous. There's no evidence this ever happened. In fact, there is zero evidence that Jeremy

ever met Jennifer at all. Jeremy claimed the reason for killing Jennifer was because she did not return his feelings he told police he murdered her due to unrequited love. Could Jeremy have been lying about his relationship with Jennifer but telling the truth about killing her. There were some details that did not seem to match. One thing that didn't match was that police asked Jeremy Jones to describe what Jennifer's duplex looked like where her body was. He

reportedly drew a sketch for investigators. Now, according to media reports, the drawing of the home he did was different than the reality of the layout of her home, But Jennifer's duplex looked different in nineteen ninety two than it did in two thousand and five when Jeremy drew the sketch for detectives. The investigator claimed that Jennifer's home did look more like his drawing back in nineteen ninety two. Jeremy also apparently got the type of soda that had been

at the crime scene wrong. It was a minute may, he called it something else. There were also some other details that didn't quite match. Still, Alabama authorities who took Jeremy's confession apparently took him seriously enough to tell the police in Kansas about it, and the police last in Kansas did interview Jeremy Jones in two thousand and five. The fingerprinting mistake that had set Jeremy free and allowed

him to kill three women made national news. The fact that a killer who had confessed to multiple murders had not been caught because of the computer glitch understandably outraged a lot of people, and journalists and people in general were rightfully asking the question, how in the world was this allowed to happen. The Georgia Bureau of Investigations Assistant Deputy Director Terry Gibbons told reporters that it was quote very infrequent for the Bureau to have this type of

fingerprinting air. But what exactly does very infrequent mean? Because the FBI also made some statements about the mistake, They claimed they were conducting an official review they were going to figure out exactly how this happened, But they haven't really given any more details on whether they did the review and what it involved. So how often does the system make mistakes? FBI's Supervisory Special Agent Joe Parris was quoted as saying the finger printing system IAFIS makes fifty

thousand fingerprint comparisons a day. He claimed that it had a ninety five percent accuracy rate. That sounds good, but ninety five percent of fifty thousand would be about forty seven thousand, five hundred, which means around two thousand, five hundred could be wrong, which to me is actually kind of scary to think about, because that could be a significant number of people if they rely solely on the fingerprinting system and don't have another way to verify this information,

and these mistakes can have very serious consequences. In Jeremy's case, it was literally a matter of life and death for his victims. Once Jeremy heard about the fingerprinting mistake, the case took kind of a wild twist because he started denying the confessions that he had given. At that point, he probably realized if he had not told police about his other killings, he would only be facing rape charges in Oklahoma. He would not be dealing with capital murder

charges that could get in put to death. So Jeremy Jones now said he was not a serial killer. He made statements to the media saying, quote, I ain't no Ted Bundy end quote. It was hard to tell fact from fiction with Jeremy because sometimes his stories were a mixture of lies and the truth. For example, he admitted to a WP and My news journalist that he had been inside Lisa's house, but he said he didn't kill her. He was just there when she happened to overdose on drugs.

Jeremy told the journalists, quote, was I there when she died? Yeah, I was there when she died. She overdosed on drugs. ME and her sat there and talked about drugs. End quote. Then the journalist asked Jeremy, if that was true, how she got three bullet holes in her head and how she was set on fire. Jeremy said he had no idea. According to the detectives who interviewed him, Jeremy could be intelligent and charming and yet at the same time completely

devoid of any kind of remorse. One detective told The Times Picking You that Jeremy's confession was the most frightening he had heard ever during his career. He said that, in his opinion, Jeremy was reliving and getting excited about the murders when he talked to law enforcement. But like a lot of killers, Jeremy lied a lot. According to medi reports, when it came to Jennifer Jud's case, police did not believe they had sufficient credible evidence to charge

Jeremy with anything. Also, Jeremy is a convicted rapist, and unlike the rest of Jeremy's known victims, Jennifer Judd showed no sign of sexual assault. So Jeremy seemed to have been dropped as a suspect in Jennifer's case. But some people still believed that he could have been telling the truth about killing Jennifer, and that there could be other reasons why law enforcement might not be super motivated to

find Jeremy's other victims. And it's true that every time another victim is mentioned, presumably that does focus the spotlight again on the fingerprinting mistakes and their catastrophic consequences. Jennifer's family hopes DNA could help provide answers. According to the Who Killed Jennifer Judd Podcast, the KBI did DNA test back in twenty fourteen and came up with a profile of a suspect. Sarah Kalin claims this profile was not a match to Chuck Chance. Law enforcement have not confirmed

or denied this. There's also been no word on whether or not the DNA on the knife was ever entered into codis. This should have meant that it would be compared to Jeremy Jones's DNA. It would seem as though it should have been given the fact that he confessed and police would have had the correct DNA the system by then, But honestly, because of the mix up, it's really hard to know for sure what was done, especially

when police aren't confirming anything. I also wonder why, if they have a profile of the suspect, if they were able to use the DNA from the knife to build that profile, why they have not made it public so that the public could help catch the killer. If this case has taught us anything, it's not to take information for granted until it's absolutely confirmed. Jeremy Jones is currently on death row with the Holman Correctional Facility in Atmore, Alabama.

His case is currently going through the state appeals process, which will be followed by the federal appeals process. But whatever happens, he has no possibility of parole, and so one way or another, barring some kind of legal miracle,

Jeremy Jones will die behind bars. Justin says that to this day he goes back and forth about whether or not Jennifer knew her killer, but her behavior leading up to the murder makes him wonder if she was worried about something or someone that she wasn't sharing with him. He still wonders if someone close to him, maybe even someone still living in the community, could have knocked on his and Jennifer's door that day, and he hopes that someday someone will come forward.

and LC Crowley. Listen to Helen Gone ad free by subscribing to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel on Apple Podcasts. If you are interested in seeing documents and materials from the case, you can follow the show on Instagram at Helen Gonepod. If you have a case you'd let me and my team to look into, you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder line at six seven eight seven four four six' one four. Five that's six seven eight seven four four six' one. Four five