Okay a, welcome to Healthy Ish. Thanks for joining us on the podcast from Body and Soul. I am your host for listening, Haley, get this. A third of Ossie's feel stressed or anxious on a weekly basis, according to our recent Health of the Nation report. Is this you do? You fall into this group right now? Well, this is
the episode for you. I'm joined by a psychiatrist and author, doctor Kieran Kennedy, and we're chatting all things stress, of course, what is healthy stress versus unhealthy stress, How to actually practice mental fitness habits rather than just thinking about them as many of us do, and whether we should turn to AI for help with our mental health. Kieren is going to help us make sense of all of the above, Doctor Kieren, welcome back.
Hello, thank you for having me. It's so so nice to be back.
As always, you're a regular now I think this is a friend of the pod as you as.
You say, yeah, it's been a few times now, so it's so nice coming in and love having a chat with you guys. So thanks for you know, my key accent can't be too bad if you've had me back a few times now, So thank you.
Well, I still forgive it, but then how are you staying healthy this year?
Very good Christian. Lots of swims lately, which.
Is just the time swimmer or an ocean swimmer.
Ocean swimmer and definitely not like a ocean swim swoman, but you know, jumping in and you know, jumping off the wharf and stuff like that. Just yeah, down near Rose Bay and things. It's morning swims. It's just sets me up for an amazing day. So been loving that.
It's amazing. How just refreshing and inspiring a swim in the morning, and you say, go down to well, that's the harbour side in the Sydney at Rose Bay and sometimes we have a pool and sometimes I'm jumping the pool with my kids, and I mean, I'd much prefer the ocean, but it's just so refreshing and such a great way to kick start your day.
Yeah, and you know that plus.
A coffee yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a perfect start. So I think that's been like a really nice little gratitude point for my staying healthy ish so far this Yeah, I like it.
It's pretty impressive. Now let's talk about well some stats out of body and Soul's recent Health of the Nation report, one in four Australians are experiencing mental health challenges, with the mental health of those suffering getting worse. What are some of the common reasons you hear, you know, with your patients and just people around you. I mean you're in this space.
Yeah, I mean a lot of varied ones, you know. I think important for people to know there can be so many reasons why we feel we're struggling. And I think, especially with society at the moment and the weight of the world in some ways at the moment, there's a lot going on to impact them into mouth potentially, you know.
I think the busyness of modern life now is a big one that I hear, especially lately with my own patients, And I think it's juggling financial strains and work and families and kids and partners, and I think it's the sense often that we're left with very little time at the end of the day to actually maybe sometimes even stop and think about our mental health. So I think that kind of busy, chaotic convey about type way that modern life can feel at the moment, I think is a big contributor.
I think that, I mean, I feel like that is just on point from what I'm hearing, you know, from listeners, from friends, from family members, like you just can't find the time to stop and drink that coffee. Yeah, you're like doing it while you're doing everything. And I often I've started to just notice that I'm always living in the future. So I'm always like, Okay, what am I doing tomorrow? What am I doing the next day? What's happening? And I'm like, I am failing to live right now.
And I think that, I mean, it can affect your mental health. Another thing. Let's talk a bit about finances. One of the main reasons in the survey what people said, we're financial, Yeah that are you finding that more and moral or how does this plant your mental health?
Absolutely? You know, and I think obviously the financial strains in terms of the prices, costs of things, someone suddenly get hit with an increase in their rent, you know, all of these things are significant parts of our lives in terms of you know, staying financially followed and managing
our finances and things. And I think there's just more and more of the pointing into that for a lot of people in terms of that being a real stressful anxiety provoking, you know, difficult part of life, and it is something that can profoundly affect our mental health, I think, especially if we're talking about stress levels and anxiety, so that a big one, you know, and I've had more people talking about that, especially lately with inflation and everything, so it's a lot.
Yeah, a third of Aussie's responded to saying they feel stressed or anxious on a weekly basis. This was interesting, And what I want to ask you is talk to us about healthy stress versus unhealthy stress, because I feel like there's a thin line and often you can think I'm really stressed, But am I to the point of where it is actually a concern or is it just normal because we should be stressed at some point.
Which is totally yeah, and it can be you know, I think we can it's easy to gaslight ourselves a little bit in terms of like, well, am I any more stressed than the average person is? Or I'm stressed, but actually I've got half of the mental load that my neighbor does next door or my best friend does, and it can be really hard to kind of quantify that in our mind. And I guess it's just as you say, it's to point out that's some level of stress and anxiety, which can be closely related, is normal.
It's adaptive, it's healthy in a way, whereas it can tick away and cross a line where it starts to become I guess what we call maladaptive and potentially negatively impawerful to our health and the line can you know, very doctorly response can look different for everyone, But I think in general, if we think about adaptive or healthy levels of stress in our day to day lives, there are a few key features. So normal or adaptive stress is often triggered to a specific situation or setting, and
it's in keeping with the level of that situation. So if I miss the bus, I might feel stressed. But if I miss the bus, but then that flips me into having a panic attack and not being able to wind down for the rest of the day, that might be an example of something that's above sort of a justified trigger level for that stressor I guess the other place stress can become not so adaptive is when it's not short lived or contained to that stressful situation or
that trigger point. So I think if people are finding that their stress and general anxiety levels are persistent or becoming maybe nearly constant, regardless of what's going on around them. If it feels like it's much higher, then maybe the setting or situation might call for adaptively, or if it's just starting to negatively impact things like our sleep, our
mental health, our physical health, our relationships. Those are kind of key points to say, well, maybe this isn't an adaptive, helpful level of stress.
That's a great example that the bus one. Yeah, like it's such a simple one, but you know, we can probably all identify a time in our lives where of just let it go and we're fine in a manner of half an hour whatever. But then other times in our life where that sets.
Us off for the whole day, absolutely and just.
Piles on top of everything else that's going on.
Definitely, And I think when our general lives are a lot busier, we are more stressed in general, it can actually be easy for those levels of stress and triggering
to start to really you know, snowball that way. You know, I think if everything's going well and we're well slept, and we're feeling motivated and happy and things are going well, if we miss the bus, we might be more prone to be like, well, that's annoying and I'm a bit stress because I'm going to miss the meeting, but fine, Whereas this is what it is generally juggling a lot in our lives, what's around us is more stressful, triggering,
we're not coping so well understandably. That's where something like missing the bus can then start a bit of an avalanche for the rest of the day being really pretty stressful and difficult.
The other thing I suppose in mine experience is that I often realize that I'm stressed in hindsight, so oh really yeah, Like even I'm sitting here right now, in the end of last year, I was very stressed, and I probably didn't appreciate that at the time, and then when I look back, I mean, my body reacts. I get z risis when I'm stressed. And how can we get better at realizing when we're in the moment rather than going, oh, yeah, the end of last year was actually really stressed.
It was actually a full long time exactly. I mean it's tricky, because isn't it often It again comes down to that fact that we don't actually get a whole lot of moments in our day to day life for our week or our year to maybe actually stop and, you know, even if it sounds slightly naff or cliche,
check in on ourselves, you know. So I think it's very easy to just sort of habituate to this level of feeling a certain way, stress included, and not actually having a moment to sort of stop and reflect and consider how am I feeling? Am I feeling quite stressed?
Have I been really anxious this week? So little pockets of time to do that or to really check in with ourselves is an important part of managing stress and anxiety, because otherwise it's so easy to just kind of get whipped up into that snowball and to not even realize it's kind of rolling and getting pretty better.
I like that idea of asking questions, asking yourself questions, always putting yourself, coming out of your body and asking yourself, you know. Am I like this where having those kind of a list of questions that you ask.
Yourself absolutely, you know, And a lot about that with a lot of mental health and a lot of work with patients and things, whether it's struggling to focus because of ADHD or it's struggling with mood, its struggling with stress. That's often a key part of any aspect of supporting our mental health is first learning to kind of check in and almost be our own therapist in the opposite chair, to say, well, how am I actually doing in regard how am I feeling today? What has this week been like?
Because it is very very easy. So don't worry if you're sitting there listening to this thinking, God, I need you do that. I try to, but you I understand. I have to be honest. I'm absolutely not perfect, and I also know what it feels like to have some weeks where it's just it feels chaotic and you're flying by the city of Pants and it's busy, and we get to the end of the word, we can thank God that I even stop and check in on how I'm feeling or doing this week. So it's I think
it's normal. And it's also very easy, as we said, with the way modern life is at the moment, to fall into that.
We back after this short break with more from Kieran. Now. Interestingly, the ways we safeguard our mental health according to the Health and Nation, weren't that surprising to me. Forty four percent of people will exercise thirty nine percent health focus on healthy eating. What I want to talk about, which I really like is thirty five percent. I suppose focus or do their hobbies and interests. I feel like, let's
talk a bit bit about hobbies and interests. Is I feel like we don't actually focus about Yeah, focus on these enough and the importance of the way in which they can boost your mental well being.
Yeah. I really loved this too, and I loved that the survey. You know, the Body and Soul team included the specifically in the survey because it is really important. And I agree we don't think about it that much when it comes to physical or mental health, but there is a lot of research and evidence around hobbies or activities or time just for the self and just being something that we do for the pure pleasure and enjoyment
of it. There's a lot of research around those things being very protective when it comes to our mental health. And interestingly, when I saw that in the survey, I looked up what is the actual definition of a hobby? Is what actually is a hobby? And it said it's something that we regularly do in our own time that brings us pleasure. So again, it's this very I think at least empowering, protective way of thinking about making time
for something that is just for us, you know. And I think hobbies, whether it's you know, painting, music, it's fitness, exercise, nature, whatever it might be for you, it dovetails into so many things that we know are so important and impactful for mental health, like joy and gratitude. We talk about flow states where we get lost and stuff.
I was just going to say that. I was just thinking, Yeah, you're in when you're doing your hobby, whatever it is, you just get lost, and the mental load or the whatever you're stressing over it, and just over it just kind of pauses one hundred where you enjoy that experience.
Yeah, and it's so powerful and potentially impactful for our mental health. And the other thing that I really love when it comes to hobbies is we know there are things that so often connect to our hobby that are also beneficial for our mental health. And so if we think about hobbies as an example of a way to protect our mental health, I think we can think of it as a bit of a loading the table or stacking the deck. So if our hobby happens to include a social element. We know that that will be an
additive booster. If it includes being outdoors, or it's physical with exercise, that's a booster. If it involves creativity, that is a boost. So in a way, I think we can think about hobbies as almost a way that we can kind of supercharge, yeah, things that can really benefit our mental health.
Many of us are obviously aware of what we should be doing for mental health and fitness, whether it's doing our hobbies or going to the gym or whatever it is. Yet we don't do it, you know, yet when we're in that stress let's just call it the stress state, Yeah, we don't do it. We don't take time out, we just get caught up. Well a lot of the time
we're actually busy, Yeah, we don't have time. Yeah yeah, But why do we struggle to do the things that we know are going to help us help our mental health.
It's really fascinating because even for physical health, is decades, if not centuries of evidence now that even if our doctor, for example, gives us a treatment plan or a set of clear things we should do to help this physical or mental health condition. As a species, you know, we're actually pretty bad sometimes at actioning those things. So again, we're all in the similar boat here, and it can be really hard to action things that we know can
benefit our health. But I think when it comes to mental health, there's a few things still stuck in the back of our mind. I think, at least when it comes to stereotypes and stigma, that makes it even more hard to action. I think if we think about actioning something to help our mental health because we're struggling, we then also in some part of our mind need to admit that we are stressed or struggling or not doing
so well. And I think even subconsciously that's still quite hard because a lot of the time we do equate stress and struggling and mental health issues with not being able to hold all the balls. You know.
I'm glad you point that out, because I feel like we've come so far in the mental health conversation, but there are but you still feel shame and like I can't do it, I'm not good enough. You know. You can go into this negative spiral one.
Hundred, you know, and even if we don't consciously believe it or we know it's not true, there can still be this underlying sense of well everyone else seems to be coping and doing fine, and they're not freaking out or stressed or struggling. So why should I have to kind of meditate for ten minutes a day to help me manage this or make sure I do my hobby
three times a week to help with my anxiety. So I think there can be this very normal, understandable, kind of even subconscious barrier to actioning some of these things, because it means we first need to acknowledge how we're feeling and that we might not be doing so well. So when it comes to actioning things for our mental health,
that's quite powerful. And also, I think we've long had this viewpoint that we can action things to improve our physical health, like our diet, like going to the gym, like going for a walk, and so we've grown up with this understanding that we can change and influence our physical health. But for a long time, mental health or mental illness was seen as something that was kind of you know, either had it or you didn't, or if you struggled with it, it was because it must be
a personal kind of flaw or faith. We're very slowly coming around to this idea of mental fitness being something that we can actually action things in our day to day lives to improve our mental.
Health because we put in it will idea, at least put in the calendar what I'm going to do for my physical health, and I yet still don't put in the calendar what I'm going to do for my mental health. But I absolutely should, and I know I should, but I just I just don't.
Absolutely. It's still, unfortunately kind of a little bit lower on the list for a lot of people. And when we add just juggling stuff with work and the kids and partners and all these other things, it's really easy for health and especially mental health to kind of just fall to the bottom of the list in terms of I should do that, or I will do that, or a meaning to do that. So it does take a lot of kind of mph to really pull it to the top of the list in then usual week.
What are your thoughts on turning to AI for help with me to health?
Yeah, there's quite a lot out there at the moment about this, which is super interesting.
You've been on chat GTPE and put something in I have.
Yeah, Yeah, you know, it's really interesting to ask it.
Questions just what's your thoughts I mean, I.
Think it's it's a bit of a double edged sword, and I think it can be and is really helpful. Dare I say it's probably slightly better than doctor Google in terms of just typing in do I have a brain tumor into Google? You know, I guess the AI is able to draw information and give a bit of a more nuanced specific answer. But again I think I guess the concern around it for doctors potentially is that at the moment at least, it's kind of just filtering
a whole lot of them fo off the internet. It might not be giving us specific answers to our health needs. And also, as we know when we ask chat, GPT anything, it depends on the way we ask it and how we ask the question. So again I think if we're asking for specific health mental health advice, it could be very informative and potentially helpful, but we just have to be aware that at the moment at least it's not a replacement for if we have legitimate questions or concerns,
you know, seeing your GP talk therapy. But even with loneliness and stuff, it's really interesting, Yeah.
Because one in four Australians are experiencing loneliness.
Yeah, which is I've seen even this week stuff about AI friends and AI partners and how that's filling a bit.
Of a whole for loneliness, and again and what are your thoughts on that, well, I mean.
I think positives and negatives in terms of I think if people are quite isolated, lonely, they struggle with real world meetings, I think it could be incredibly helpful to give a bit of a support point for people. But it's again remembering that there are certain ways that it might not be able to be the same.
As a human seem to watch it develop over the next five to ten years and how it will exist and whether at the end of the day, you know, as humans, we've thrived for millions of years because of connection and that's what we need. So will the AI connection be able to well replace human connection? She knows what's space. We won't figure that out.
I need a little bit long to figure that out. Now.
One other thing that came up was asking for help. Seems to be a barrier in people when it comes to mental health. And this surprised me in some ways because I feel like there's a lot out there that you know, are you okay? Day? Like, there's a lot out there now encouraging people to put the hand up, but people are still struggling with this. How do we raise issues or things that we might be struggling with with or family or friends or whoever.
Yeah, really interesting, and as you say, we've come a long way, Like, I think there's so much more out there about this now, and I think we're a lot more open compared to the past when it comes to talking about mental health and reaching out for help. But it's still a massive struggle. And I think if people are sitting there feeling like this has been difficult or is difficult for them, they're not alone because this is
really kind of triggering deep difficult stuff. And to ask for help or talk about it, or even ask someone else about how they're doing it takes us first having to actually look at and acknowledge some often pretty uncomfortable, difficult feelings. And naturally that's just hard. And our brain, as Freud talked about, for better or worse, our brain is very good at throwing up a range of defense. Yeah,
you know, mechanisms to protect us from that feeling. So I think you know, one of the ways to really work on it is to just work on acknowledging again what's there and how we're feeling, and checking in on ourselves around how we're doing. And then I think it's to know as well, whether whether one reaching out or whether one wanting to reach in to ask someone else that we're worried about. It's knowing that there's no right
or wrong way to do it. You know, I talk to a lot of people who get very worried that they're going to say the wrong thing, not be able to explain it how they feel it, ask the wrong question make the person worse. But we know now just through experience but also research, that if we ask, however we ask, the outcomes and benefits for that person are far and away better than if we just didn't talk about it or ask at all. Other little tricks and tips are to lead with care and concern rather than
noting things we've noticed. It's human nature to kind of try and explain what we're thinking and seeing and feeling
by specific kind of things that we've observed. But it's more helpful if we're trying to talk about our mental healthful concerns to sort of talk about us being worried and concerned and how we're feeling, rather than again, if we're asking someone else rather than saying you've been off lately, or you've been quiet, or I've noticed you have been dropping the ball on this, that can obviously be quite triggering. And yeah, you know, make a bit of a defense.
Which gets mindful of our language, lead.
With kind of care and concern. And we might have touched on it in the past actually as well. But you know, I love this idea of like a chat lap or like diffusing some of the intensity. So one of the things that I talk to patients and family members are patients about is just generating a talk around mental health and feelings and life and stress when we might also be doing something else. So it might be on a drive in the car, you know, the whole car therapy type thing with our friends.
I love that, kids.
It's a real thing for a reason. So it might be in the car, it might be over the dishes, it might be while we're doing something in the backyard. We actually know, even just neurologically, that things can flow and come better doing something. It diffuses it a bit.
Actually, my one of my sons said to me the other day it was either tom my husband or I pick hm up from school. It's like, oh, Mom, can you pick me up? Because we have a good chat in the car. And then I actually made a mental note of I'm going to pick you up once a week now so we can have a chat because that's our space.
Yeah, and that's it is, and god, that's so beautiful. But like you say, it's just the car is like a it's almost protected time. We don't have other people coming in, rushing in and out. And it's also you know, because there are even just some background things to hold elements of our attention. Otherwise, it often makes it easier to talk, especially about kind of bigger, deeper emotional type things because in some ways we're kind of and you're.
Not looking people straight in the eyes.
Side or there's radio in the background. We can look at other cars as we're driving.
Now, just quickly before we go. We know what you do for your hobbies. How do you safeguard your mental health?
Yeah? I think I mean again fits with the hobby in a way for me. You know, exercise in the gym is just if I've had a really full on day with patients, you know, or it's been a stressful week. Even if I feel like I am dragging myself in there, I very rarely have a workout or an exercise session where I don't come out of that feeling so much more relaxed and kind of having discharged things. Probably the other way I look after my mental health is no surprise.
But I've always been a bit of a sharer, a bit of a talker, you know. And I guess it's also lucky in terms of I've had friends and family to just discharge things to a little bit, you know. And I think we underestimate even if we're sending a meme to a mate about you know, the day being like a hurricane or you know. I think even those tiny little touch points of just checking them with someone and then having them shoot.
Yeah, like just one simple text can actually just boost you. If you're just feeling like shit.
And it's been a stressful day and we're feeling like shit, we underestimate. I think how just that little check in or that little text, that meme, that little laugh with
a friend can kind of really diffuse things. And so I think for me, you know, for better or worse, my family and best mates know that I'm kind of a near constant yeah, text, the communication and stuff, so it's I think that is also if I reflect on it a way for me that I really kind of just buffer any stresses or difficult days and kind of look after my mental health as well. Send a text, yep, send.
Them me, Karen, thanks for coming back on healthy.
Thank you so much for having me.
How do you safeguard your mental health? What's your list? Do you actually action it? I hope this episode has inspired you to do it, just at least one thing on the list, because you know you'll feel better afterwards. It's that run so hard to get out the door, but once you do it, you feel amazing. Have you come across our Health of the Nation Challenge? Yes, we have joined up with the kick app to offer you
one month free access to the app. It is a four week challenge design to get you moving with Steph and Laura's favorite workouts. There are lots in there. Jump on board. There's something for everyone. We'll leave a link to this in the show notes. Now tell us what you thought of this chat, Share with a friend. You can DM me at Felicity Harley anything else. Head to Bodyansoul dot com dot you follow us a Body and
soul on socials. Grab our print edition which is out in your local Sunday paper, and of course stay healthy.