Ontario Sheep Farming: Insights from Dr Mark Ferguson

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This week we thought we'd actually have a chat about my trip to Ontario . Sophie and I were having a bit of a yarn about it and we thought , well , we might as well press record and let the listeners listen along as well . So Sophie and I are sitting with a Mike H chatting about Ontario .

Yeah , I was there for 10 or 11 days , put plenty of socials up so anyone that was following would have seen plenty of images and stuff , but yeah , it was a great experience .

I was there at a great time of the year in terms of autumn , leaves and all that stuff to look at and yeah , I guess probably on reflection , like very different environment , very different production systems .

But I don't know when you're sitting around in a hotel room as the clock strikes 12 and it's just the same as you , as if you're in australia or new zealand great people that farm sheep all over the world , it seems yeah , it's the joy of it .

So Anita O'Brien actually is a listener , hopefully she's listening along today . She was the one that suggested to Erin Morgan , who's the Executive Director at Ontario Sheep Farmers , to look me up , and so , yeah , I guess there was a couple of jobs .

One was to critique three different businesses , their sort of breeding strategies , which is always a bit , I guess , confronting in front of 150 people talking about someone else's business . But I guess that's kind of what we do , so that's , that's fine . Um , and then and then a presentation as well , a keynote on uh profitability and sheep .

I also spoke to the large flock operators group the morning before that uh , which was a group of I think they're cut off as 650 maybe sheep , and so , yeah , a lot of those are actually grazing outdoors , whereas a lot of others are also indoors and outdoors people in that group .

But , yeah , I guess they're the more uh , the more that are primarily doing doing sheep production without other parts , that will have other parts of business as well , but but are genuine , genuinely producing sheep as for profit , whereas and then that goes across the group is a range from those with a small number of sheep through to those that have a combination

of other incomes . I guess , like lots of places in australia , new zealand , where , where sheep don't pay all the bills , um , yeah , so they were the , they were the kind of core things to do . But to do that , um had the great opportunity to to jump the car .

I went to 14 different farms , so erin was kindly chauffeured me around and , uh , yeah , so literally got off the plane at 10 30 at night after the longest thursday of my life , and then , I think , seven o'clock that next morning we're off and spent , yeah , ended up on two islands that first day , so , uh , which was pretty cool .

So the first one was , yeah , like a boat to a boat out to see the sheep , and the second one a ferry out to see the sheep . But , um , yeah , so , and we went from there pretty much it was pretty similar to a next-gen trip .

There wasn't a lot of time , downtime , it was getting the car and go and um , which was , which is good , like we like to get a lot done in a day I suppose we can .

That's where they take harvest , just the corn cob , and then grind the entire , just the cob , into a , so it's got the moisture , obviously before it's dried , and then ensile that , and so that's quite a good feed , quite a good balance feed .

There's obviously corn silage or whole , whole crop silage that we'd be used to , and then sort of two versions of that , one more grain than the other , and then distillers grain , which is corn , with the obviously starch removed through distillation , um , and so that's actually high protein , I guess it's sort of 22 protein and quite good fat .

So it's quite a good creep feed and really good lamb tucker , uh . And then what else we got ? Um , yeah , then we saw a couple people grazing whole , whole crop corn . So you sort of start off before the , before the cob was fully formed , and so they're sort of grazing I guess . I guess like a whole , like our normal sort of break free gazing .

You're grazing , you're doing in new zealand , and then by the end of it , as the corn's maturing , they're only eating the cob . And yeah , I've never seen sheep demolish something so quickly as jumping in a crop of whole , whole corn and and they know they've got to push it down to get to the , to get to the cob .

So , um , that was pretty interesting , but I guess that's more normal how we would handle , uh , how we would feed off forages , I suppose . But yeah , definitely , obviously , land is at a premium , expensive land often and yeah , cash cropping so soybeans and corn being for ethanol production as well as stock feeds has pressure on grazing , we saw .

But then there's a few people who are pasture-based and yeah , I guess one of the . You kind of think , oh , it's going to be similar to NZ , but a lot of these areas go from sort of minus 30 winters through to kind of plus 30 in humid summers and so pasture growth goes from zero for a long period of time to like 200 kilos a day .

So , like the ability to stock to that , to have enough animals to eat , yeah , to get through the winter but then be able to eat that amount of feed is obviously impossible . So , yeah , it's quite a challenge to handle that .

So the first um island we went to , which was matt and liz's um , and I don't know if they own all the island , but a big chunk of it anyway . The uh , yeah , so they , yeah , obviously boat over in the summer , but then can four-wheeler , like you can drive on top of it over there in the winter , but which has some bonuses .

But he talked about how , like sometimes , if it's not quite , if it's sort of starting to melt , you can kind of see a bit of a wave forming in the ice as you're driving in the four-wheeler , and I don't think that's something I'd want to see . That's not something .

able to do it and then get them out onto the pasture as it starts to , as you start to thaw out and things start to grow .

So they are the reto arcot , which is a canadian developed breed which has got fin and frisian and random stuff in there , but yeah , I guess selected for for high for candy , lots of multiples .

Um , so some of those doing kind of three lambs per year , like 300 lambing and then we'll , and then obviously the fall lambing , which is , yeah , so the spring lambing they do that and then the fall lambing is is a bit less as you get the photo period working against you .

Um , but they'll be , yeah , sort sort of accelerated , like some on the five-star system , some on other variations of .

Yeah , just kind of always thinking like some of them lamb five , six times a year , obviously not the same sheep , but yeah , so it's kind of , yeah , it's all intense I guess when , which is sort of , yeah , it's obviously hard to work out in your head how that all works , but I guess , once you're in , once you've got a sheep and you're going to feed it

everything it needs , it may as well either be pregnant or lactating is kind of the theory . How old ?

I don't know what the average was , to be honest , but yeah , but certainly when they're young , like they do , particularly those indoor systems will have like a creep available from a couple of weeks old and so the animals are already kind of undergrown and then weaned and then stuck again obviously just bore further corn into them .

So , yeah , quite fast growth for the genetics probably aren't super growthy , from what I can work out through a few size of venues and looking up their data , but probably comparable to New Zealand but not comparable to Australian sort of terminals and yeah , but still getting some really good growth rates through , yeah , concentrated feeding

. Obviously Big issues with worms . There's not a lot of actives available .

Yeah , I guess what I quickly realised is how many things that we have that they don't have , like through veterinary products , drenches , vaccinations , a range of things , and kind of stopped , started off sort of commenting about , oh , it'd be better if you had this and this and this , but quickly realised that that's not very helpful to people to tell them the

stuff that they can't have because of , obviously , market size . People aren't willing to go through the approvals process for small markets like your . Big corporations need to sell stuff .

So , yeah , a lot of which is a bit limiting , but I think , yeah , I guess what I took away from that is that genetics is going to be sort of number one , two and three on the solutions list for a lot of their problems , because if you don't have the chemicals or the vaccinations or whatever , then you're going to have to select for the resistant ones .

So barber's pole big battle in those . Yeah , so anyone grazing outdoors obviously can get a fair load up of larvae and then that obviously , without appropriate treatments , can cause a fair bit of grief .

Coccidia are the other parasitic problem and getting outbreaks in barns was like one of the , I think , probably saying coccidia out loud amongst an Ontario sheep farmer , putting a shiver down their spine .

I think that's probably their number one concern and I was there in kind of yeah in fall autumn and a really good week 16 , 17 degrees and blue sky , lovely , and everyone was telling me how lucky I was .

At the time it was actually snowing back in New Zealand which was yeah , both out of season , you can imagine that some of those barns get quite cold and humid and wet and damp and imagine that there's some health . Well , there are some health issues associated with that .

Yeah , so fast growth or pushed to that . Some sold direct , a lot sold through what they call sale barns , so sale yards and all entire some males with tails on . But yeah , no , yeah , no males .

Well , not many males castrated , which I'll talk about before the podcast is out , and yeah , so that most people were sort of no real , I guess not the structure that you've got here . So not much , not many , not that great availability , just sell store lambs or whatever , like a lot .

Most people are finishing some of the pasture guys were , um , were had a sort of custom feeders that were taken from from them , but a lot of people were sort of taking everything through to to finish product just on the scale of things and I mean the price . I think it's , um , yeah , kind of depending on .

Obviously it fluctuates a bit , but they're kind of over 10 bucks a kilo canadian , so probably more like 12 , so 300 , like a 25 dealer , 25 kilo carcass making sort of 300 canadian which is whatever , that is 363 , 73 , 80 or something . So plenty of um . So yeah , high , high value lamb um .

So I guess that kind of explains how you can go intensive if you're getting that sort of price . Even mutton was like . There wasn't much depreciation on mutton , they were getting that similar sort of money or even better .

But the other thing I just want to mention on production is quite a few grazing under solar panels . So Chris Moore , lindsay Smith and a few others we caught up with were grazing under solar panels . So Chris Moore , lindsay Smith and a few others we caught up with were grazing under solar panels .

So in that model you get paid for taking the grass away and obviously the sheep are a bit of a bonus . Sounds like a perfect model

. There is challenges with that because you've got to obviously break fence through panels and shift stuff around panels and there's no water on a lot of those panels areas and stuff . So kind of a fair bit of work . Well , there's no water on a lot of those panels areas and stuff , so kind of a fair bit of work .

Well , there is a lot of work but you get the benefit of , I guess , well paid to graze it as well .

But I think that's going to be a big opportunity across most of our production areas , like for those areas where panels are going in , there's a lot of pasture underneath the panels and , yeah , the big production challenge was coyotes or coyotes depending on which person you ask because those things , yeah , will kill any class of stock and everything .

Yeah , the challenge with grazing outside is both the winter , but more often is the dogs or the coyotes .

I kind of put them all out across ewes and yeah , I think yeah , there's definitely over-ram use , as in lots like down to probably I don't know one ram per 20 ewes often , and I mean they're all in close proximity . We know that a ram in New Zealand will get 100 , 120 ewes on a hill , let alone in a yard where they can see everyone .

So yeah , I think the kind of concept was that a RAM can only handle a few years a day , like two or three years a day , whereas we know that's higher than that . So yeah , and I think everyone's going oh , it doesn't matter , we've got the RAMs anyway . But the genetic merit of all those RAMs isn't equal .

So if you've only used the top three rather than the top 15 , it means your genetic gain , like your selection intensity , goes up , your average genetic merit goes up and your selection genetic gain should go up . So yeah , I think there's a definite scope there to reduce the number of rams used and sort of that .

I mean I think there's a bit of an excuse that you just chuck them all in , because then you don't have to worry about feeding that rampant at the moment because they're all in the use . But but I think , but I think , I think that , um , yeah , I reckon there'll be some lost , lost opportunity there so we'll get on to genetics .

. So I think that bit , there wasn't a lot to say . But yeah , genetics , I think there's still plenty of opportunity . I guess the breeding happened sort of in the 60s and 70s . They developed these couple of breeds like a Canadian Arcot and a Rideau Arcot and then the sort of .

So the Dorset has been sort of well , they've selected more maternal Dorsets , I suppose , so lacking less carcass and more , yeah , I guess , more carcass than a Rideau , but generally less carcass than what some of the terminals we'd see getting around these days and a dorset that we would have as a terminal . So , yeah , sort of a maternal dorset .

So a lot of people were um had a cross of dorsets and ritos , um like an f1 or a or a fixed composite with a few other breeds in there , um which I thought they were good shape , um , they were big shape , the .

I think one of the challenges I think in their industry will be kind of how to balance that and the reto sort of is that like a small maternal with that's highly fecund and then hit it with a guy with a bigger terminal or whatever ? But yes , I think there's , there's opportunity there to , I guess , maybe more efficient on some of that stuff .

I think the big opportunities are around , like the selection for coccidia resistance it's . I found one paper that was correlated with worm resistance and so but no one , like no assist counting and stuff to work out , yeah , like there didn't seem to be . I don't know anyone in the world that's doing that .

But I think that would be a game changer for that industry if we could find some um , some selection sort of processes . They do um , they have a , a pneumonia , progressive pneumonia , um problem which is caused by maddie visner , which is a virus , I assume . Um , and yeah , it's , it's a , a major problem for them .

So you get and so and there is a gene test they've developed for um that's been developed for that , which I think , from what I can find is actually could be a bit effective . Like there's a couple of haplotypes that are very susceptible to that disease and some that are less so Scrapy .

They do a lot of testing for , or some people do a lot of testing for , genetic resistance to scrapy . So a couple of gene tests which people are using to different levels , which have shown a bit of promise .

And then , yeah , I guess , like most industries , there's sort of some people trying pretty hard to measure stuff and using Genovese , which is their genetic evaluation system . Probably one of the challenges was that Genovese doesn't have heaps of traits .

You can imagine maybe Sill and Landplan 25 years ago or whatever , before , a lot of the traits were developed like sort of . Some of the core traits are there , but at the scale the industry is out , it's difficult to invest in all the different . Yeah , to develop new trades into those evaluation systems . But yeah , I think there's probably .

Yeah , I mean the sort of comment was , if you go to 2,000 farms in Canada you'll find 2,000 different production systems , which is kind of true , but then kind of isn't there's sort of core similar things ? I think around genetics there's a bit of haphazard stuff going on . I could use this round this year and this one next year .

So I think , yeah , probably opportunity to tidy that up a little bit through . I'm a bit of a fan of maternal sort of composites and some of the ones I saw there , like some of the combination of Rideau and Dorset , but then it'd been and they'd put a bit of New Zealand composite in there as well and a bit of New Zealand Cootworth in different places .

So yeah , I think there is opportunity in there to probably to make sure that the genetics are tailored for the system . I think obviously you need a different youth or a grazing system than you do for a barn system . I think I know I haven't done the modeling , but we need to do the modeling on how big mature size needs to be in those those systems .

It seems to be a lot of people were sort of running everything the same , whereas I don't know . I feel like there's an opportunity for a small number at that for country . Like you can turn over a lot of ewe lamb , so I think there's an opportunity for a small number At Fecundity .

You can turn over a lot of ewe lambs , so I think there's an opportunity to have a small number of maternals and then lots of animals going to terminals , which was something I was harping on a bit while I was there . But yeah , I think that would be interesting to see how that rolls . There's no preg scanning for multiples there .

There's preg scanning but no one . I think the accuracy , from what I could tell , the accuracy wasn't sufficient with the people local people to get accurate singles and twins and that and a few people doing it themselves , that sort of stuff . So I don't know , I felt like that was a bit of a to me .

Managing that level of energy and all that sort of stuff and not knowing who's a single , twin , triplet would be a , would be a severe challenge . Obviously not many singles in those highly for gun breeds , but but having twins and triplets and in the same group and then yeah , so I think I think that stuff was .

Yeah , I couldn't really get my head around how you could manage energy appropriately with without , because I knew a lot of them were doing quite targeted breeding , like they're really good with their short matings and a lot of people using cedars in the off season and stuff . So they were probably really well .

They definitely were good at sort of synchronising lambings and stuff . But then I feel like you get the full value out of that if you knew who was a twin , who was a triplet and a few things like that . But yeah , that would be . Yeah , there's plenty of things to reasons why that's hard . I suppose Like it's because of all those different lambings .

Like your preg scan would be full time on the road and while it's not quite the expanse of Australia , there is still plenty of yeah , like plenty of area they would need to cover . So and and for small groups , which would make it fairly difficult to assault the economic . So you can kind of see what the where the challenges are coming from .

Yeah , the other thing I was keen to mention was probably probably at the convention we had lamb for the dinner and then the next day we had like a pulled lamb shoulder and , without sounding offensive , it's not the best lamb I've ever eaten and I kind of got well .

I kind of , I guess , reminded me that perception is everything really Like for the canadian lamb eater . That was good lamb and was . It was very tender . Um , you could definitely taste I could taste anyway the ram taint and and it was quite fatty , being corn fed . So it was a very different kind of almost .

If you didn't tell me it was lamb , I wouldn't have known what I was eating . Um , oh and definitely the pulled lamb shoulder was definitely because of the fat cooked into the meat . You could definitely taste the ram taint and which , yeah , it's not something that I enjoy , but obviously if you've grown up with that sweat taste then that's fine .

And a lot of the market in Canada are cultural lamb eaters , so from the Middle East or subcontinent or whatever , and particularly Middle East , where often they want entire animals and that's what they're used to eating , so that you can kind of see why , that's how , how that that rolls .

But it certainly was , yeah , a bit , yeah , a bit different and , uh , for me and and yeah , I guess I guess . Yeah , it's um interesting . Just you get used to eating it in a particular way and tasting it in a particular way . But I would struggle to .

Yeah , I can't imagine new lamb eaters who haven't eaten anything with rame taint , sort of tasting that and thinking it was amazing . But I don't know .

We weren't eating the best stuff and and even like saying that we we're gap rated here , which is a global animal partnership , which means we don't castrate our ram lambs and we send them over to america to go to whole foods .

And I just tried to think who's trying lamb for the first time from whole foods , thinking they're buying a nice expensive cut of fancy new zealand meat and it's an eight month old ram .

there's lots of reasons why you would do it , but I think , yeah and I guess that . So there's that , plus the corn fed versus grass fed , um , like I think the I mean a lot of australian lamb is is feedlocked finish , but it's been on , so it's a very pale mate , obviously very young mate um , because it's killed early .

So anyway , just different um and very tender though like um , so no trouble there , like , but yeah , anyway , it's just . Yeah , it's just intriguing , uh definitely one more question .

the end ? But , um , you visited a sheep dairy and that's my thing , and yeah , just thoughts and opinions . You mentioned clean points and the breeding of them and the redos and stuff yeah , certainly , uh , clean , yes , clean , pointed shape .

So it's a sort of a relatively fledgling industry in canada . So , um , this is their form of co-op , uh , and they're doing , doing good things , have brought in the different people pronounce differently , but the corn or whatever , the french , french dairy genetics and , uh , which are clean points .

And yeah , I reckon , I don't know , they're a nice-looking ewe , I reckon nice-looking rams , clean points , they don't need to do any teat spraying or anything or teat dipping because there's no wool around the teats or whatever . And yeah , just a really , really good-looking animal , obviously high performance , selected by the French for milk production .

So , yeah , doing all barn fed and mated and getting long I don't know , like I haven't spent a lot of time in that industry , but getting quite long lactations and , um , I think sort of over a kilo a day right through for a long , for a long lactation which , sorry , later today , which I think some of the kiwi sort of versions I've heard here get down to

quite low yields and lactation is not lasting that long , but obviously the corn would help with that . But , yeah , mating while still lactating , yeah , sort of all sorts of stuff that you need to do to keep things ticking over .

Finishing all their , yeah , so , bringing all males and females through as lambs and then on to , obviously , to milk powder robots , and and then and then on to creep and go , and then on and then fed through the production production system .

So we went past some pretty fancy looking dairy barns . We didn't go into any of them but did see an indoor beef feedlot , yeah , which some of the fattest cattle ever . Great , he was just grabbing , he was just trading , so he was just grabbing . He was just trading , so he was just grabbing .

He was sort of grabbing whatever was available at the sale yards , almost like just stuff , and then bringing them through in groups and feeding them . So sort of an opportunistic feeder .

But yeah , really really nice setup , a lot of focus on ventilation in those barns and making sure that the air movement is right , and so big fans and some fancy , fancy , fancy , fancy sort of computer systems which shut the shutters down on one side if it's running from that angle and wind's coming this way , and yeah , so like fully computerized and and high

tech , some of those , some of those barns others were like the bank barns , which is your kind of traditional um , put a barn on the side of a hill and put the feet upstairs and the animals downstairs , so so they're . Quite I don't know if I'd want to spend too much of my life working in one of them . They were quite dark and shady .

Yeah , so obviously people do what they need to do and obviously building a fancy half-million-dollar barn , is not , yeah , no , they make it work .

And then there's a whole heap of crew and a whole heap of farmers that I met that were just an absolute pleasure . I got to go to my first ice hockey game , which was awesome . I had a fight , the local team won . The game is completely nuts like nothing else I've ever watched .

But I got to enjoy that with Chris Moore and Lindsay Smith , which was a whole lot of fun as well , and Aaron , which was fantastic . But yeah , I mean , the highlight shouldn't be going to a hockey game , but it was certainly up there to see that first hand and just see how insane that game really is . So that was good fun .

But I guess what it showed was that the similar challenges just sort of housed in different ways , I suppose , and I guess I didn't have any real feel for those systems and came away thinking yeah , and probably thought , oh well , like outdoors is the best way and whatever , but whereas indoors , done well , is really efficient and really

like . It kind of made me think about which I didn't expect to be thinking about , but it kind of made me think about well , if and we actually had a client talk about this a while back like , if you can get cheap grain in Australia , why could you just put up a shed and do exactly the same thing ? Like what's sort of stopping us doing that ?

Like when we spend a lot of our time and there'll be heaps of . I haven't done the economics and maybe you do need $350 a lamb to make it work , but certainly you kind of had this theory that people were just doing it because that's the way they'd already done it and hadn't thought about it .

But it does make good sense if you've got a limited amount of land and you need to grow it , grow the maximum amount of feed on that and a maximum amount of energy and then feed it through a production system . I think , um , yeah , so probably it was challenged on on those sort of things .

Um , probably went there with the concept that two lambs is always plenty , like triplets is never going to be useful , whereas probably came away going that there are people that can like under those systems . A lot of people take that weaker triplet off and feed it on a feeder , but a lot of those probably aren't taking those lambs right through on like .

So a lot of people working on half a bag of milk powder per lamb and so that kind of improves the economics a fair bit rather than maybe a bag or whatever , depending .

And so that kind of improves the economics a fair bit , rather than maybe a bag or whatever , depending on how long you leave them on there , but getting them on a creep quick and um , so , yeah , I guess . Yeah , probably my dislike for triplets and quads probably reduced a little bit , although , um , it's still is challenging , but they can triplets with creep .

You can , you can do it yeah , yeah , yeah , and that's probably one thing , um , and then , yeah , probably , yeah , just a complete lack of appreciation for all of the like the importance of bedding and airflow and all that sort of stuff , like that whole new world .

This is music to my heart yeah , like stuff that I've never , because we only ever like they're in a shearing shed to to get shawna gone again or whatever . Or I mean we have done I've had animals in doors for my studies and stuff before and like , yeah , so you see some of the same challenge .

It was probably , um , I was probably also blown away , but you didn't see a lot of I don't know like behavioral . Like you know , you see zoo animals that are rocking back and forth because they're not meant to be locked up or whatever .

And the same with when you put sheep in pens , they start chewing wool and being silly because they're not meant to be locked up or whatever . And the same with when you put sheep in pens , they start chewing wool and being silly because they're bored .

But maybe it's a variation of feed or variation of system or the fact that I don't know , but you didn't seem to see many kind of behavioural issues or whatever where animals were just bored from being inside . Maybe that's because they were still in groups of 100 or whatever , or 50 , 100 , like they weren't individually penned or whatever .

So , yeah , I don't know , like it's challenges what you think about . Like I guess that you think about the sort of animal welfare type angle and like freedom to display normal behavior which you kind of , they kind of were . Like they were , they were being sheep , they're in , they're warm in the house and the shed , not being chased by a coyote .

I didn't see any cases where you're like I didn't see any sheep . That didn't look happy .

But yeah , it is something that Kiwis and Australians do struggle to wrap their head around until you see it in person and see why . And yeah , the sheep are happy .

Yeah , like some of those barn systems that have been like thought out well thought out , really efficient ways to get stuff fed and like get things done and get out of there fast . And then there's others that have kind of evolved from a bank barn , a bit here and a bit there , which is just the way you have to .

It's the same as we'd all love the the best fences and the best farms or whatever , but you have to make do with what you got .

why we do get to focus on the genetics and stuff , because we don't have to think about feed rations for sheep , we don't have to think about ventilation . You know , we have the freedom to .

I mean , obviously we know how to manage pastures , but kind of don't know what their energy requirements are each day or whatever , whereas , like , their ability to match feeds and think about what's going on is high and again , there's some great support people out there helping them do that . But yeah , no , it was a good trip .

up . Thanks for listening along . Thanks to all those Canadians that listened . I think on the stats there's about 50 or 60 of you . I think I met all of you , but if I go through names I'll forget a few . So I'll try I won't do that .

But yeah , thanks to all those folks that were kind enough to host me , kind enough to come and say g'day at the convention and , yeah , it was great to get to know you all and , as I've already said , make sure you look me up if you get anywhere near where we live , and we can certainly try and pay back the favour .

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