This is he said, a ya viho with Eric Winter and Rosalind fantev.
All right, welcome back to another episode of he said, He said, because my wife is going to be gone still for another month. This is ongoing, this new series. Are we liking this he said? He said, No, I missed my wife. She needs me back. Listen. I just got back from Puerto Rico. She's crushing it out there directing her movie. I'm so proud of her. A lot of work. She has no breaks. I've never seen her work so hard. But I truly couldn't be more happy
for her. Everything coming together. My experience in the movie was very interesting because I spoke a lot of Spanish that I normally would not speak. Not a lot of Spanish, but way too much for me to be acting with Spanish. I can tell you that much. It is so tough acting in another language. I have so much respect now and I understand, you know, for Roslin, her first language
is Spanish. She obviously learned English a bit more in her twenties, but like to speak in another to act in another language, hit everything the right way with the intentions and try to eliminate an accent. I mean I probably sounded ridiculous half the time. I was so nervous. Twenty years in this business and I was probably some of my most nerve wracking scenes were acting in Spanish. But I made it to Puerto Rico. Long story short, it was a disaster to get there. I had my
flight canceled twice. Went to one airport, they canceled my flight when I got to the lounge they had and I had to work the next morning after a red eye, so they had to give me a cab certificate to get me to a different airport to then jump on a plane and finally make it there after a red eye and then go straight to work. So it was a whirlwind week, but great to see the wife and see her in her element doing great things. And we
shall be back an action on the show soon. Look today, well for this episode, we have a two part episode coming up. But this, this episode coming up is exciting to me. And you know, we've talked about this many times that I'm not the Fufu or the wouie one like we know with all this stuff mediums and psychics and all that, like my wife, but I've become more open to this stuff and I definitely believe that people
can communicate with the afterlife. I do believe it's possible because I've had some wild experiences in my you know, and a few different sessions I've had with various mediums and psychics, and it's been spot on things that people could never know. And I'm so excited. We have a guest today on the show, Jonathan Mark, who's one of the world's most sought after mediums. He initially pursued a career to be a police officer, which is amazing to me,
and somehow that shifted over into being a medium. So I can't wait to dive in about that. But you know, the fact that he wanted to be a cop, I'm all for it. I want to hear you know, being a rookie member here, I have so much respect for law enforcement and everything I've learned. And now he actually works with law enforcement, the NYPD, FBI in particular to help solve some true crime cases. A lot of them are cold cases, and he uses his abilities to help
solve the crime. And I can't wait to dive in about that. I'm fascinated by it. He also has a podcast, first season out, Connect with Jonathan Mark, which launched July thirtieth. This is going to be a lot of fun. He's going to actually do a reading with me, So I'm a little nervous to see what happens. One time I had a reading and nobody showed up, like the meetium was like, sorry, there's nobody that wants to talk to you. Was wild. It was wild nobody. But the last time
I had a reading, my dad was clearly there. So we'll see what happens. Let's bring him in listen. Thank you so much for coming on, he said, Aado. I know you also have your own podcast. I'll start right away with that Connect with Jonathan Mark, which you just launched July thirtieth, exciting, diving in a bunch of readings with and I know you've actually one of my co stars, Jenna Duwan I think did a reading with you, which I have to talk to her about that. I want to hear all about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we didn't get to record yet.
Oh she's going to be coming on.
Yeah yeah. I read her a while back and we were going to do a project together, and with her schedule and having a baby kind of put a little you know, a little hinder on things, which is completely justified.
So for sure, Now I wanted one of the things that my producers brought it to me right away, and I wanted to jump in about this. Is that. Sure, so you became a medium, but before that, you actually wanted to become a police officer. Yeah. And I work on a show all about cops, so I have I have mad respect for cops and what they've you know, what they go through on a daily basis, and just how important they are to what we you know, serving
our community and everything that they do. What what was your impetus to want to even be a police officer to start? And then what made you deviate from that?
Yeah?
So so basically I always wanted to help people and that was my biggest thing. And you know, I wasn't fantastic at school. I definitely wasn't. I you know, I played college lacrosse, and I always attest to the fact that if I didn't play a sport, you know, I needed structure in my life and like some like aspect
of it. And I was thinking about, you know, because I was getting recruited to like the Army and Navy, the play lacrosse and I always wanted to be a military guy, and you know that didn't obviously, you know, go down the path I wanted to. So when I graduated college, I was working at an advertising agency just like right like right aft school, and then I got the call for NYPD. I got, like, you know, to
start the process. So I went through the entire process, went through everything, and then eventually as I got to the academy and stuff like that, and after I kind of had a conversation with a high level police officer who knew that I was a medium, like just based on like a like a family friend, like he knew I was doing this kind of like privately on the side. I wasn't really sharing it with anyone at that time besides like like personal family friends and you know, things
like that. And he pulled me aside and had a conversation with me, and he was like, when you develop your gift, like we want to use you on a different way, like protect yourself, protect your family, be able to come home at night. He goes, these are things that like I had to battle it for twenty five years. And he's like, I don't want to put you or
your family or anyone through that. So he's like, I want you to kind of like stop and then kind of focus on this, and that's kind of how it like happened.
Wow, So that far into the process and you got sort of talked out of it for a greater purpose and a greater good to help the department in your own way.
Still, yeah, I still do. I still work very heavily with them.
So that's fascinating. But I want to talk a ton about that. But before so, you were already doing some side work as a medium. But at what age did you realize there was something here that you had a gift?
Yeah, so when I was really young. A long story shortened my pass when I was about six months old, and so I never really got to like obviously know her. Besides, like you know, my family had pictures of her, and you know which I'm I'm sure many families have with their like you know, relatives have crossed over, passed away, whatever. And you know, when I was about probably around four, four or five, I it was Easter Sunday. My mom says,
she'll never forget this. It was Easter Sunday and my grandfather, their father, we were sitting on the couch about to have dinner. And I walk up to him and I go, Susan's here, like ann, Susie's here. And my Grandpa's like, okay, cool, you know, like one of those He's like cool. And he's like this little kid over here, you know, imagination, you know, And and then I started going. I said, I'm like, she's grabbing like a jacket, like and I kept pointing at like a like a denim and I
kept saying, she's, you know, you know, grabbing this. And my grandfather's like, what the hell is he talking about? And my mom starts crying. I starts crying, and then my grandfather's like, really, like what is this kid talking about? So my mom like walked up to us and go and I guess I she like pushed me aside because I was so young, and she was like, you know, when Susan passed away, they lived together and like Flushing Queen's and you know, they would steal each other's clothes
like that was their thing. They lived together, and there was this one denim jacket. There's one denim jacket. And after the service happened, like the funeral, everyone went into their cars to go to the cemetery, and my mom walked back in and buried her in that jean jacket, so like no one was in there. So my mom
like walked to the car. Everyone walked in, and she wanted a very like private moment it likes, like she didn't want people to know, like, and so when I said that, you know, my Grandfa was like, what the hell's wrong with this kid? You know, like the typical like cause I'm Italian and my family is just like,
you know, what was wrong with this kid? Like, Because then as I got older, I was starting to see things about my family members, like you know, aunts and you know, cousins and stuff that I don't think I should have known at that age, like very personal things about like people.
That were living still or people that already.
So it was people that have crossed over that did things to people that were living. Got it like very intimate things, and I probably shouldn't have known that at like a certain age. But then I didn't really understand it. So I didn't really know like one, what I was seeing in two, like what certain things like truly meant. And as I got older, you know, I started to kind of realize that, like the people like my friends weren't seeing they weren't you know, you know I see more.
So like it's they weren't seeing the things that I was seeing. So then I felt like I was weird. So I didn't want to share it with anyone, and I wanted to be as normal as you can. So I just picked up lacrosse and got big in lacrosse and wrestling.
So you try to push these things to say, yeah, this is what's fascinating to me. So like even for your mom to embrace what you said at that age, because a lot of parents can also still be like, you know, John stop like yeah, come on, you're five, right, Like you're not going to fully buy in. She clearly brought into something, but maybe I can't imagine she still thought at that moment, my son's a medium. She probably just thought you had this weird vision that happened and
it made her emotional. Yeah, so you basically your mom thought, okay, you maybe had this one off experience, right, and then you were keeping things to yourself. But like for the average person like me, is it were you, you know, eight, nine, ten years old and you were seeing spirits in the house.
So which is kind of interesting. Is it originated like that where I would physically see and it was just typically my aunt at the time when I was physically seeing it, But then it became I guess I can relate it more to this now, like a screen shot on your phone. So it was like screenshots in my head. So like I was getting like screenshots of like things that I didn't really understand what it was, because at first it started as like a pictionary, so like I would see images.
And stuff in like the kitchen, like you just see something walk by.
Yeah, well not yeah, kind of, I guess kind of.
I'm trying to understand, like how I would imagine what you're seeing.
Okay, So when I was a kid and I would see my aunt, I would, you know, wake up to use the restroom and stuff, and I would see my aunt down the hall and like waving and I would freak out and.
Run my mom's room.
Yeah yeah, I would. I freaked out my mom's like what just happened? And I would like jump under her covers as like a kid, and like I would like start shaking and stuff. And then eventually it became less and less and less like it it became less of me seeing physically her versus like seeing things that like
are like I guess considered screenshots in your head. But it originated like that just to get my attention I think of like what this gift is, because you know, I like, like I said, even as I was getting older, like my first instinct was to ignore it, like it
was to like not dive into it. And then when I started doing this a little bit more and I was like kind of like looking into it and kind of doing it, it became more of like screenshots and then symbols like I would stare at a wall right like a blank wall, and then all of a sudden, I would see images of like like an anchor, which meant like navy, and then it would go from an anchor to I would see a jo so like for John, I'm using my name Massing example, and then it kind
of like started slow to go fast because I try to explain to people like you're learning a new language, I guess, so it's like imagine you're learning Spanish for the first time if you don't know Spanish or things like that. So it kind of escalate just to get my attention to that.
So do you think and I mean, now that you become more of an expert in this space, do you think there's any truth to the fact of if spirits in the afterlife are being recognized and you start accepting it and diving into it more, they might become or
the sign everything might become more readily available. But if you're somebody that's constantly pushing it away, pushing it away, ignore, ignoor, ignore, it's very easy that you can maybe just suppress this entire gift and maybe those images, like you said, it went from seeing or to just scenes, it became less the more you ignored it, it became less. Is that possible?
Definitely? Yeah, I mean it for I think my circumstance was different compared to other people, but yes, and mine was like it kept going because they wanted I'm assuming
they wanted me to be medium. I mean, like again, I was in the process for NYPD and stuff, like I was pretty far long into it, like with everything, and you know, i'd I try to explain to people like I didn't like ask for this, like I wasn't like you know, like there's some people that really study this and try to like enhance their gift to like because everyone has a gift, like everyone can sing, but
not everyone can sing like Frank Sinatra for sure. But I do think like the more you push it down, the more you're not going to see things, because their whole purpose is like they're not trying to scare you. They're not trying to do anything. They're trying to get your attention to let you know that they're there. So the moment that you start pushing it away, they're like, then why we're not going to like battle someone that doesn't want, you know, to like see this essentially.
So like when you were in high school, the older you were getting and you were doing other things, was it still at a lower level or was it continuing to fight its way in to your life to where you finally, like you said, accepted it and started doing some stuff on the side.
Yeah, it continued to fight its way through. I mean I was, you know, playing lacrosse. I was wrestling, and then like things were coming through and I was like, what the hell is this? You know, like, you know, like I'm in the middle of a lacrosse game and all of a sudden, I'm seeing a coach on the other side, like their brother that passed away and stuff, and I'm like, it was also so distracting, but also like I no one validated that I was a medium at that time, so it's like I didn't know if
I was mentally ill or not. Like I really was battling that side of things too. I was like, am I mentally ill?
Like?
Am I not mentally ill?
And Yeah, I've always wondered that that has to be so much for a young person to wrestle with about like, like you said, I'm szophenic one, Am I just seeing things? Is this real? Is it not real? Like I'm freaking out and to have to rein it all in and still have a normal life. And I'd hear stories from different mediums. I've had a couple meetings in the past, and I was never somebody fully open to this stuff.
My wife is always way more accepting of these things, yea, And she got me to try it for the first time. And I've had a couple different things happen that were pretty remarkable in that sense. But as I've talked to some people, they said, yeah, it's often like you could be in a room and you're just hearing tons of voices like it because you're trying to have a normal dinner.
Let's say, but all these people in this restaurant have people that want to cross through and speak to them, and You're just like, oh my god, let me just have dinner with the person I'm with right now. I don't need to have all this noise. Is that how what it's like for you too?
Yeah? I have a funny story about that. I was in college and at that time, it was my fifth year. I did a fifth year just because I red shirted one year, so I wanted to play like my four years. And I was in a class and all of a sudden, I'm sitting there and like I'm seeing stuff. But it was the first week of class. It was like sill this week as everyone calls it and stuff, and I
see my professor and she lost a son. And I never would go up to someone and start saying stuff like never, I'm that's not me, Like I don't know
what came over me. I'm not really sure. I kind of pretended to pack my backpack up like really slow, so like as people are leaving, I'm like slowly putting my stuff away about to go to lacrosse practice, Like I'm slowly going and then everyone left and I walked up to her and I go, you know your son and I said his name is here, and I start talking about him and I'm like, wait, I don't even know you like believe in mediums or people that do that, and she flipped out like was get out of my
class like so like so like yeah, because of that, I've like become a little nervous to like do that to people, because I also realize now that it's such a personal thing, like you shouldn't just go up to someone and bombard someone with something like that, like you should always like ask if they're like okay to do it. But yeah, like anytime I go out, it's like I'm seeing stuff for each person or like there's a bunch
of like energy. I guess that's in like a bar because I try to be as normal as possible, like I'll well have to, I'm sure. Yeah, Like I still play volleyball like the NYPD guys on Wednesdays, like you know, like I still do that. So it's kind of like if I'm around everyone and it's just so much energy that's coming at you, it's like do you do that? Do you not? I'm like, nah, I'm not doing anymore.
I'm like, no more of that for sure. And let me ask you this, is it different when you're inny physical place? Because I've had readings face to face with somebody, and I've had it over the phone, yeah, and never on a podcast. I don't know a video. But is it different if you're in the physical presence of the person or it doesn't matter. You just need to sort of see that person and see their energy or or or whatever it is and things will still happen.
So I will say this like the reading side, like, no, it's pretty similar the intimacy. The intimacy side, sorry, is a little different. Like when you're doing it in person, it's way more intimate because you're sitting with the person face to face. And what I struggle with is like when I because I have clients like everywhere, so it's like I have to do through zoom and I don't want them to feel like it's so transactional. And I think that's that's where I kind of struggle with with
that because I don't want it to be transactional. This is like an intimate experience, so it's like I want it to feel that way, but when it comes like the actual reading portion of it, it's it's the same. I would think it's just like the intimacy factors like a little thrown off with it.
That makes sense. And when you now you have this total not would it's called a side profession, but you know, an aspect act in an arm to your profession of working with law enforcement FBI, NYPD tell him. I mean, I'm sure there are tons of stories that you could share, but is there like any one in particular that you, without question they caught the person, found the whatever it was because of your direct involvement that led to that that result of a cold case closing. Yeah.
So I think the one that people know me probably the most about that get Abbybatito side of things, when I helped locate the body and I helped kind of navigate to find Brian Laundry at the time because he was on the run.
For a very long time. Yeah, he was the he was the it was his name. Oh yeah, that's right, that's right. This is the one that was out in the desert when they found her body and the parents were involved, right yeah, yeah, so.
Yeah, it's it's it's kind of like so I I did the stuff with like the readings and stuff with like law law enforcement, and and I kept saying about the parents and like this things like that, and they're like there's no way, there's no way. And even when the parents were, you know, being a little weird, and then all of a sudden they jumped right into like help the church. I kept saying, I'm like no, no, no,
the like blah blah blah. And I explained like how he was going to do it, and like how not far away he is, so like they're looking at crazy distances, like he traveled all the way up to like the Carolinas. And for people that don't know they were in Florida, so like for him to go from Florida on foot to the Carolinas, that's one a little like crazy. Yeah,
But I was kind of like doing that stuff. And then once it got solved, that's when I got a little bit of like, you know, their respect on with these different like agencies, because like the FBI has like the New York sector, the Florida sectors Wyoming, like they're all very different. And even with the law enforcements that were involved in this case, there was like three to four different like law enforcements from Utah to Wyoming to
Larda and all these different places. So it was interesting because I couldn't even speak about it for like a really long time because the case was still like ongoing on like a like a legal matter. So then when I was able to, I was able to like take a picture of like Gabby's mom and like finally meet her.
And it was complicated. It kept crossing jurisdictions everywhere that he went everywhere there. Yeah, it was a big mess that side, on the on the you know, legal side of things. Yeah, so you kept pointing the finger at the parents saying, there's something more to explore here, there's something more to explore here. And did you know quickly like you knew it was them or you just knew that there was more information that they needed to share and that they needed to take it serious the police.
Yeah, so basically when they when I helped find Gabby's like like body and stuff, it was the part two of like obviously the manhunt of like Brian Laundry. But then also like there was also like a lot of different factors of like who was involved as far as like who knew what was going on and just all all this stuff. So like after I kept pointing at the parents and I was just like, you know, they're leading you on a wild goose chase right now, like
they are. And I go, not just like literally, but like in every way like mentally and everything like you and They're like, no way, no way, like their attorneys doing this. No way, no way, no way. And I'm like no, no, no, Like I go listen. I know I'm not amissible in any way, but I might just trust me on this. So we were going back and forth a little bit, and then like eventually it all came to fruition that like the parents knew from the moment it happened, and yeah, everything.
Are you able to share what gave you that knowledge? Like is that was it her? Yeah?
So when I connected to Gabby, when she became connected to her, yeah, So so basically what happened was I was contacted weeks or like a week before they found her body probably, so like they still thought that she was possibly alive, Like they thought that there was not like there was a chance that she was alive. And it was hard for me to like say this, but
like like when I was doing this. I spoke to the like one of the law enforcement people, and I asked like everyone to kind of get off the like the zoom because it was through zoom, and I said, I go, hey, if I'm connecting with someone, that's not a good sign. That means that they're not here.
Let me back it up for a second. Before they reached out to you, because you said it's a week before they found the body. Yeah, were you putting yourself out there already going like doing the work to try to to find her? Or did did like what made you how did you get involved? And yeah? And A and then B did you have to like give pick where they giving you know, items to you of her
or pictures of her? Or is something that would make you have to try to I'm assuming put an effort into to tap into her spirit, right versus you're just you weren't just up in New York or you weren't playing lacrosse and all of a sudden, you know, she's in your ear, like you had to put some effort out to go make that connection. Yeah.
So I went on someone else's podcast and they asked me about it, and I just said, like, it's hard for me to do anything if I'm not speaking to someone that's related to them, because like, I don't want
to cross a line. And then an FBI person that I know, I guess heard it and they reached out and they and I spoke to someone that was a family member of Gabby's and that's how I was able to connect because it was really direct and like again, like that's how I became close with Gabby's mom, Nicole, because of stuff like you know, like we weren't allowed to talk to each other, yeah, for like a year and a half, and then they gave us the green
light to talk. And then she came back to Long Island because she originally was from Long Island, and I met up with her and her kids and like everyone because it was such an interesting relationship where I do my reading. Then I don't speak there ever again, you know, like because they wanted to keep us like separate. They didn't want us to I guess developed like a friendship because it could blur lines of things.
For sure, could dilute the case and evidence and yeah, probably just make things less credible in the long run of you guys, exactly what makesure isolating? So it's like a one off experience. I'm getting information for you. It's a transaction, you're doing your doing business. Yeah.
Yeah, it was like a ten to fifteen minute thing and then they would click it off and then that I wouldn't hear from them for like a little bit.
But as soon as you met with that family member, as soon as you met with the family member, you connected and knew she was.
It was pretty fast on. Yeah, it was pretty fast on. It was probably like like four minutes in, like you know, like enough for me to be like, this is uncomfortable for me to say something when everyone is like on, you know, like, and that's when I wanted to I wanted to respect every party that was involved when I was doing it, So I tried to do it in the like the best way that I knew, which was like say it to someone personally before it goes right into work kind of with it. And yeah, it was.
It was a little uncomfortable. I'm not gonna like lie because I didn't want to be the one on to like say any like.
I don't know, yeah, yeah, no, I hear you.
It was really uncomfortable.
Was that your first ever interaction with law enforcement or had you already been doing little things with law enforcement.
I was already doing stuff with them.
You were already working with IPD and all that.
Yeah, because I got the like everything is like in that world when you do it's like word of mouth, Like it doesn't matter about anything. It matters about word of mouth. Who you've helped, how you helped, and like, yeah, it's just like they they're skeptical but open minded, if that makes sense. Like they they believe in it, but they have to see it to believe it and see like movement to believe it. Like they're not just gonna like take off of someone.
So especially when it's something so severe, I mean so serious, you know what I mean, Like you're talking about someone going to jail, not going to jail. You know, they're using this as part of their evidence. It's a lot.
Yeah.
So in other cases you've worked on, Yeah, have you also complete cold cases that have been you know, skipped over for years they couldn't have more information. They bring you in and you start talking to them and you help them put pieces together that actually read led to an arrest as well. Yeah.
So there's a bunch of cases where like I try to explain to people like I'm never their first option, I'm always their last typically, and it's typically to help them go down a different avenue of sorts to kind of like keep a case either kind of moving along, or to help like make an arrest for someone. And there's been like a new like a couple of cases where some of the things I said led to it,
like an arrest. I got flown out to like Lima, Ohio like randomly by one of the sheriffs like people, and they literally block like they gave me a fake address, like they didn't want me to know anything. So I flew into like I think Dayton Airport if that's like I'm not even sure, and someone picked me up, drove me for like two hours. I had no idea where I was. They put me in a hotel and then they're like, well, come and grab you in the morning.
So they grabbed me in the morning. They blindfolded me because they don't want me to like know where I'm going to like google like an address, because if I google an address and I could probably google the case and you can always backtrack kind of like what it is. They pulled me up and just so I'm sure, I mean, I didn't know this. I don't know if you know, but like lime Ohios are very like industrial area, so there's industrial plants everywhere, so where they make my car
parts and like everything. And they pulled me in into like an industrial lot and then they took my blindfold off and they're like, here's another one, and they put it on, and then they drove me like wow, to like a they lived in, like in a trailer home, I guess, but it was creepy, at least for me because when I walked in, it's just like imagine like you walk into like a shell of a house. They took all pictures, all furniture, like gone, like they took everything.
They didn't want me to know who I was talking to, what was going on, nothing, And I said some stuff about this case. This case was this guy was outside smoking a cigarette and there was a hidden run and the way that the body was positioned was like it was like if someone took a baseball bat to the back of your head and they put the hood up there's no blood on it, and laid him on his side.
You're seeing all this the moment you walked into the trailer bar.
No, so like the When I walked in, I saw was the son and I saw the impact to the back of the head, and then I was helping to like uncover, like yeah, and then they kind of filled me in after. They're like, this is where it happened. Where you pointed to the edge of the driveway, that's actually where it was happened. They're like, you're right, and then they're like and then they start showing me pictures after because they wanted me to see what I was
like talking about. And I was saying someone's name over and over again. I kept saying this guy's name. I didn't hear from them for like eight months, and that happens a lot where I don't hear from them for a long time. I get a call from the mom and the sheriff and they're like, the person that you said, who we skipped over so much, is actually a lead.
So now based on some of the stuff you bring us to our attention, gaining footage from what you were saying and stuff, he was there that night and he said he wasn't there that night, and they're like, we saw him in the car because I kept saying, I'm like he was involved. I don't know if he did it, but I'm like, he's your key person to get to who you need to get to, but you need to start at this person, and they did and they were able to. I don't know how far along they are
now made. I just I heard from them like a couple of months ago about it, so I don't know how far I put at least exactly because they like skipped over him because they thought, like based on relationship. They're like, there's no way that that's possible, and like he has an alibi, so they're like, there's no way relationship and alibi you put that together. They're like no. And also people don't realize that when you go into like these smaller towns, their police departments have like twenty
two people max. So they're stretched so thin, so they don't even like have resources to even like continue cases. So it was like a really interesting thing for me just to be blindfolded and kind of going. I mean, yeah, I was freaking out, Like I was calling I'm not gonna lie. I called my mom.
Yeah, it was like I may not come back. I'm trying to help some people, but.
Yeah, I'm like I'm like this, I'm like, I don't know what you have to do, but you may have to find me. I'm like, wow, yeah, it was freaky.
This is I mean, I could go on for hours with you. This has blows my mind. We're gonna wrap up this first part of the show, and I know the producers have talked about I guess you're gonna talk with me about some stuff. But sure, thank you this again. I can't wait to come on your show. I want to talk more about this stuff. I'm blown away by it all. But thank you for sharing about all this. Yeah all right, Wow, that was fascinating with Jonathan. I can't wait to dive into our second episode where I
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