Okay, I know you're scared. Please don't. But I need you to understand something. Please don't make this any harder than it has to be. Wait! Why did you do that? Why the fuck did you have to do that? Please listen to me. I would die for you. I would. But that is not what just happened. Fuck, I'm immune. I can't get infected. Welcome back to the official podcast for the HBO original series, The Last of Us.
I'm Troy Baker, and I'm joined as always with the showrunners of the HBO series, Craig Mazin. Hello. And Neil Druckmann. Hi. We are unpacking episode four of season two, which is titled... day one it was written by craig and directed by kate heron wonderfully let me start off by saying i had no idea what to expect going into 204 and it might be my favorite episode so far whoa all right
I'm sure that I'm going to end up eating my words. But I was blown away. And what I loved about the opening of this is the vibe is completely different than anything else we've ever seen. We start on the inside of a Fedra truck. It's 2018 in Seattle, and we... We meet these gregarious soldiers that are going into battle, it seems, but just telling a funny story and laughing it up, which is something that we don't get to see a lot of.
in this world. And things quickly take a turn after the punchline when we meet a new character. Named Isaac. Yeah. Wonderfully, beautifully played by Jeffrey Wright. Just that voice is unmistakable. Took away their right to vote and somebody started calling them voters to mock them. Till now you know. I didn't mean anything by it. Of course you didn't. You're thoughtless. That entire sequence was inspired by a moment you have where you're wandering around in the game.
Neil, you put all these little moments inside the game, these little stories that are optional, people can find them or not. One of them are these notes that are left behind by some FEDRA officers who are long dead. But you understood that in Seattle, there was a moment where FEDRA officers started turning on FEDRA because it was...
not working well, and that there was, in fact, a kind of internecine warfare. And you also do find a Fedra truck at one point that you can climb into. And so, like, all those things were bopping around my head. Yeah, in the game, there's a lot of... What we call environmental storytelling. As you're exploring the city, we give you evidence that, you know, Fedra used to rule this quarantine zone, just as you've seen in season one or game one. And then they fell and they fell to this.
two groups that had an uprising. One were the Seraphites, the Scars, that we'll talk about later, and one was the WLF. And then yet, to Craig's point, there is a truck that you find that has been blown up with the people still inside as part of this uprising. And so then, in my weird head, I start thinking, What was that like? And then there's this notion of whence Isaac, you know, so Isaac is.
the leader of the WLF. He's the leader of the WLF when you meet him in the game, but there isn't necessarily a sense of where he came from. And so this was one of those mornings where I called Neil and I say, I've got a crazy idea. And this is, to me, a very fun way to open an episode. It's very contained. It also allows us to begin to tell a separate story, which is the story of this rookie.
This kid who's played by Ben Allers. And it's clearly his, what, I don't know, first week on the job. His helmet doesn't fit very well. And he doesn't quite understand. this brutal nature that these guys have this us versus them you know the people are beneath us And perhaps that is why Isaac chooses to give him a choice as opposed to just... fragging him like he does the rest of these guys well this is a conversation that we have a lot about these factions and how
Sometimes they'll see people within a warring faction, a different tribe, as they're too far gone. I cannot bring them back, so the only choice I have left is to kill them in order to save my tribe. And here is someone that is fresh enough. They're still malleable. I could give them the choice to come around. And Isaac makes that calculation in that truck. You know, when I was playing the game, and when most people, the way that we experience this story is...
We're kind of, like you mentioned, Craig, we're seeing these almost voyeuristically, these conversations that we're picking up after they've happened. You guys have done this several times. We've even seen it in this season with the introduction of the Sarah fights where we get to be with those people as opposed to seeing them through the lens of Joel or Ellie or Abby.
in the game. And so this is an opportunity for us to kind of give a little sympathy for the devil before we see characters that if you play the game. are at least antagonistic, we're going to see them as the good guys before we see them as the bad guys. This kind of stuff is some of my favorite bits to work on with Craig and to discuss. And that Isaac...
was also played by Jeffrey Wright in the game. But you only see him for a short period of time because you only see him when the characters you play as meet him. With the show, we don't have that restriction. We could jump around in time. We could jump to different characters. So from the get-go, there was always this excitement, oh, we get to explore more of this character, of who Isaac is, what makes him tick.
So it was a lot of fun, and it was very cool for Jeffrey Wright to come back and replay this role in the same way that Merle Dandridge came back from the game to season one to play Marlene. We get to see him in another scene. And we're talking about the evolution, the adaptation, the opportunity to spend a little bit more time with the character. Who wrote the saucepans? Whose idea was that? That's a very craggish sort of thing to do.
You know, when I was a younger man and I wanted to impress a woman, well, you have to know your strengths. I was kind of shy. I didn't know how to talk to women. It made me nervous. So what I would do is cook for them. And I was good. Good enough to deserve quality tools. Ah, but did I have the money for that? No, I did not. I would go into... to William Sonoma's cookware store, you wouldn't know. And I would stare at these.
I'm always thinking about how almost everyone in the apocalypse that we meet is doing something extraordinary. If they're not, we probably won't meet them. But they didn't start extraordinary. So even when we think about David in season one, the leader of the cannibal cult, he lets Ellie know that he used to be a teacher. It was an incredibly mundane thing. He was a teacher. Everybody was kind of okay. And then the world collapses. There is something that is both...
revealing about Isaac here. It's a little bit of his story of before all this. We don't necessarily know what he did for a living, but we understand, you know, he liked to date. This is how he would attract women, you know, he would cook for them. But it becomes pretty clear that this is not the first time he's told this story.
And that there's a purpose behind it. And the purpose is to intimidate, is to intimidate somebody because Isaac gets to relax and tell a story while somebody else is in chains bleeding. We see him sear his hand and to see that person go into the repetition of the praying. And then the second time it comes back, the hand is already out. That right there is a level of conviction and obsession with one's beliefs that allows them to transcend even torture.
Yeah. And then Isaac understands it's pointless to continue any further. This one is just way too devoted to the cause. There's another piece of information we get from Isaac that is interesting, I think, here. Because when we first met the Seraphites in our third episode, we meet them through a father and a daughter. They seem peaceful.
The daughter asks, why can't she keep us safe, the prophet? She says, Ezra says the prophet is eternal and moves through the sky, whoever Ezra is her friend. And her dad's like, no, prophets are just people. Well, here, Isaac says something to this kid. He says, you know, some of you know that she's not some magic fairy in the sky. Some of you know she was just a person. And this beaten young man, who has every reason to not argue, argues and says,
So we understand not only is there the WLF and the Seraphites, there's a schism inside the Seraphites themselves. There are some of these people who are perhaps... a bit more secular, and then some who are really, really fanatical. And what we have not yet seen is any evidence that the Seraphites are anything but victims.
That, of course, will change. Just to take it a little bit further, which is, you know, we talk a lot about how much this show is about love and how much you're willing to do for the people that you love. But there so far have been grounded people that are next to you. With this season, it actually has gone further. It's like now Ellie is chasing the idea of someone that is no longer around, right? Joel is gone. Nothing she will do will ever bring him back.
But there's a belief within inside her that in pursuing justice to the ends of the earth, that she will do right by him. And these people, you can take it a step further, they are in love with a religious figure. They love this prophet so much. that they're willing to do whatever it takes to protect the idea of her. And this person is probably young enough that he's never even met her. He doesn't know who she really was.
So I find this kind of fascinating in the exploration of love to a person that the further you get away from them being alive, just becomes less of a real person, more of an idea. That's a really good point. There is something. that is inside Ellie that almost feels like Joel is a prophet. And we see this in drama all the time, going all the way back to the Greeks where...
you'd have the chorus that was kind of hanging out behind you. And George Lucas has Obi-Wan Kenobi showing up as a force ghost. What does he say? He says, if you strike me down, I'll be more powerful than ever. So Joel has been struck down and yet he does hover over Ellie like a force ghost, like a prophet, like somebody that needs to be followed and pursued and then justified through her actions.
This young man is pursuing this other ghost out there and the prophet. And the question is, what is Isaac pursuing? And these questions about this war... may not be fully answered this season. There will be some mysteries. Now that we're renewed for season three, we could say you will definitely get those. That's the thing. We just didn't know if we were getting canceled, guys. We will absolutely find out.
exactly what they're about exactly what he wants which is the most important thing to understand about characters but There will be some mystery to sit with for a while. Duality is always something that's on seemingly permanent display, and that is prevalent in this scene as well. As we see outside of this ruthless interrogation to the two soldiers that are standing guard, one of them...
we see the rookie played by Ben Allers. And now he's no longer this bright-eyed, bushy-tailed recruit, but he's someone who, as Jeffrey Wright's character Isaac has said, has made his choice. And his response is, Scar got what he deserved. Fucking animal. This was a kid who theoretically was nice and not on any side and wasn't with these...
brutal guys, and now here he is as a soldier fully dehumanizing them. So the idea of community is something that calcifies and turns us against each other is in full effect here. And it's also... a quiet condemnation of whatever has happened to Isaac over these years. Because...
Even though we meet him committing violence, we kind of get it. I mean, these guys are brutal. They're literally making fun of brutalizing people. And now here he is, and the people that follow him seem pretty brutal, and he's torturing people. So there will be a time, I can't promise it will be this season, but there will be a time where we will get to find out just how all of this came to be.
Do you, when you're writing or even when you're shooting, at what point do you go, hey, just in case we don't get to have a third season? How do you wrangle those, those fears and go, let's just sneak this in real quick, just in case we can't get. That was impossible with this season. No, no, no, no. You got it. You got it right with confidence. You know, I mean. If you write defensively, just in case we get canceled, you're going to mess your season up.
I can't imagine, you know, the guys who are in the Severance writing room going, just in case we get canceled, we should probably explain what the hell is going on here. So, I mean, you get some answers and then there are a whole bunch of mysteries that get left. That's the way it ought to be. I mean, maybe that would have worked on season one, but this season, there's no way. No. Which do you prefer? Do you love laying out the mystery or unraveling it more? Yes.
Well, I mean, I do love the unraveling. I love a reveal. I mean, every magician should love The moment where you do take that card that they picked and reveal that it was in their back pocket, you know, somehow you forced it there. But the only way to get to the reveal is through very careful setup. So setup is math.
Setup is science and reveal is music. And so, of course, I look forward to the music part. That's always the most fun. I'd love to say that we had perfect planning and we know every setup and every payoff on the first pass. I find that never is the case. It's like it's iterations, it's layers, and you uncover like, wait, this thing that we really like, this juicy moment later in the season, let's go back and set that up properly in a previous episode.
I think that's the real benefit of having written all the episodes before starting shooting, is that we can have the whole season in our mind. We do have Ellie and Dina that are exploring, you know, this fractured Seattle. And when they find it is, you know, 11 years after the opening of the episode.
And we're seeing already the remnants of whatever that conflict is. The burnt skeletons that were like in the... Tank. In the other tank. And she even says, you know, they... what they're smelling and they're just just like the apollo 1 astronauts which we get to see you know a nice little uh insight into her love for space um but then we also see is things like the pride and the rainbow flags and just the absolute unawareness
So there's these wonderful markers of what we would consider, you know, the past for them and how just like visually we've seen the world grow up around that in a lot of ways. occlude or completely cover that but there's still some things that that poke through and like in this music store ellie finds a guitar yeah this section in my mind, is one of the most true to the game sections.
All of this stuff is pulled from the source material, all of it. The fact that we had The Last of Us Part II game available when we made the first season is why we put... Ellie talking about Sally Ride and going to the moon. In the first season, because we understood that this was some place to go. So it's a little bit like what Neil was saying. You kind of go back. You realize where you want to go. You run backwards to set it up and to feel.
So the tank and the skeletons, the fact that these two young women, one of whom is openly gay, are walking through a gay neighborhood and they do not know. what these rainbows mean. That's right from the game. That was so, I remember just thinking how both beautiful and sad that was. What's up with all the rainbows? I don't know. Maybe they were all optimists.
I think it's even more drawn forward in the show because the world ends a bit sooner in the show. It ends in 2003, not 2013. Even more progress. was stopped dead in its tracks. And of course then, the moment where Ellie plays the guitar for Dina... That's about as close to the source material as you can get. I mean, of course, Bella and Isabella are delivering performances that are fresh and complete to them.
From a writing point of view, my challenge for the script was, how do I get the stuff that I love from this section from the game and put it in here in a way that feels like... it belongs and it's seamless and it's natural because there's so much i mean what neil and hallie did there It's a little bit like a duck press, you know, like I got to get so much.
stuff into a small amount of time without it feeling episodic or perfunctory. It's kind of a fascinating process to me, you know, having worked on the game for so many years at Naughty Dog and a lot of these ideas are not just, you know. It's me, Hallie, and then 300 other people. But all these things that we discussed so far, the tank,
the van with the blown-up Fedra people, even this moment where Ellie plays guitar for Dina are all optional in the game. That means you can play through the game and miss all of them. So I'm always fascinated, what is Craig going to be drawn to? And sometimes I push for certain things, but often it's like, I want this and I want this. It's almost like he's at a supermarket or something, just picking his favorite moment.
And I love this moment. You've gotten pretty good. Thanks. All those lessons from Joel. As part of the process, you know, when we made the game, we were looking for the right song. Hallie Gross, my co-writer, worked on the game and is working on the show, was friends with the wife of the guitarist of AHA who wrote that song.
His name is Paul. So when I was there on set, I was recording their performance off the monitor, and I texted it to him, and he was so moved by it. He loved that their song was being used in this kind of gorgeous way on the show. And if you're going to stop a television show. To have somebody sing most of a song. One of the important things is...
There needs to be something happening inside of it. It cannot simply be a performance. There must be, you know, what Neil and I talk a lot about is how in our action sequences, the action is there to either reveal information about a relationship or to change a relationship. And that had to happen here too because it's not optional for the viewer. So something has to be occurring here.
By the point this happens in the game, Ellie and Dina have already become romantic partners. That's not true here yet. Dina is still... She's not ready. And maybe she's unsure. And then Ellie sings for her. And you can watch. Isabella perform Dina falling in love. And I say perform.
It's not adequate to describe. Really, what you're seeing is Isabella falling in love. It's a pretty remarkable moment. And I remember Kate and I were talking to Bella and saying, you know, there's this thing that happens when you play guitar. You can either serenade somebody to seduce them, or you can be shy. and exposed and vulnerable, and don't make eye contact. If you do, briefly, and then go right back to your song. You just do your song.
And then while you're doing that, this other person is going to feel everything. And the two of them did such a gorgeous job. I was so proud of that moment because, of course. on the beginning of a day like that my heart is racing i can't screw that up i cannot screw that scene up it it means too much to too many people and I love that we presented a version of it that is both.
true to the game and its own thing because of its slightly different context. There's some interesting development that occurs there. And the change in their relationship that happens in this moment is pretty profound. It leads up to everything. Everything is led up to that moment. And if that moment doesn't happen, then maybe the way the episode ends doesn't happen either.
It's this moment of joy and connection and intimacy between characters and all the chaos that you can have that, that people, no matter what condition they're in, they find some level of normalcy. So these teenagers, right, 19, they're still teenagers. can still have these innocent moments. They haven't been completely corrupted by this world. That was very important for our story.
Neil, for you, you know, obviously you spend years working on making the game and it's not just, oh, here's the first pass of the script and we'll go shoot it with the actors on the vocab stage and then we'll put it in the game and we'll add lighting and it's done. I know that you iterate and iterate and iterate to get it perfectly, even before it hits the page, much less hits the stage or is an engine.
But what is it like for you when you see, okay, here's another opportunity to adapt one of these really impactful and almost iconic scenes from the game? When you see that's going to go up for adaptation, like what's your process like of like letting go? Cause you could just sit here and iterate on it again. Is there a way you go? We found the perfect version or is it, how do you let go of it? I guess is the question.
The letting go has been a lot easier this season. And it's like, look, it's not even mine to let go of. You know, I'm just happy to be on the journey. I've seen Craig and everybody else just... treat this material with such respect and reverence, it was easier for me to be gone for a large swath of this season while it was shot, and knowing it's in the best possible hand. And that actually was my first day on set. for this season was this scene. And it...
It wasn't meant to be that. It was just kind of serendipitous. And I remember walking onto that set and just being in awe of it. Because it's all practical. It's all there. You walk through that music store. The team did such an incredible job of recreating it and like with real lighting and real vegetation and all those records.
And the other thing that was just an anecdote, you know, I'm there with Mike McCready, the lead guitarist of Pearl Jam, walking him through that guitar store, showing him, oh look, there's a Pearl Jam poster, there's a Temple of the Dog poster. So the whole thing just felt so surreal and extra special. But the letting go, it's...
Honestly, I don't even think about it much these days. There are certain things I want to be there, and I want to chime in more than other things, but it speaks to the level of trust we have in each other. After they leave the music store, Ellie and Dina travel to the TV station. And what they find there is...
In no uncertain words, horrifying. When Ellie and Dean are there, and they see all the disemboweled WLF soldiers, and then the soldiers arrive, and they have to escape. And it goes by so quickly, but it's such an important character development. They shoot and kill a WLF person and they move on and they don't think twice about it. Think about what a difference from Ellie who shot that man in season one and was broken over it.
Now death doesn't have the same cost to her. She knifes a guy in the neck and kills him as if he were a clicker. And Dina shoots a man in the back of the head. Why? Well, Ellie is fighting for them both to escape. Dina. I think maybe if she weren't pregnant, if she weren't falling in love with Ellie, if she hadn't heard that song, maybe Dina is scared to pull that trigger. Maybe Dina is, but no, here, now, Dina is doing this.
for them you know like out of love i also love the look that's on ellie's face bella's face if i know how to attack this person because what we saw in episode one is jujitsu you have no idea what you did you are fucking with the wrong person and takes him down. It's so good. So good. That also, the scene in the TV station especially, find the disemboweled seraphites just that moment of them hiding is
just such, I mean, it's like, man, I felt like I was watching the game. It's like, I want to pick up a controller and move from hiding. I've said it a million times, like, I'm a stealth guy. I love stealth. Me too. But stealth, is also a kind of gameplay that is, I think, easier to adapt to television.
Running in and shooting can turn a little bit into, I used to work with David Zucker who made Airplane and I worked with him on the scary movies and he taught me everything I know about comedy. And he had a great term for when.
Things on screen were just a lot of noise and action without purpose. He would call it manic dumb show. And if you just start running around and shooting people willy-nilly, it becomes manic dumb show. Everybody's seen that a million times. It's just, you know, cops and robbers. And stealth is suspenseful. Stealth is exciting.
And it was a chance, especially for me. I mean, I said to Don, hey, the TV station, let me show you how it was in the game. And let me explain why we need to make it like the game. You see where these stairs are? You see where these crates are? There's going to be a stealth thing because that's what I did. Stealth my way up those stairs. That's what I did. And that's what we're going to do. But before we can get to that, there is this horrifying moment.
where Ellie and Dina realize that the people that they thought were victims, and maybe the people that I think the audience members who have not played the game might think of as victims, are not just victims. They're another side of a war, and they are brutal. They're so brutal that not only do they hang people and disembowel them, but they then took the studio lights and arranged them. so that when their fellow soldiers find them, they will be horrified by this terrible pestice.
And then to make it worse, they take some of their blood and they paint these words on the wall. And that is terrifying to me. That symbol that suddenly was like, what is this symbol I've never seen before? You just think maybe these are peaceful people and this is their peaceful symbol. It is now painted in blood on the wall. Dina says, and I believe this is straight from the game unless you tell me otherwise, Neil. Dina says, What the fuck is wrong with Seattle?
There's a lot of what the fuck is wrong with Seattle in the game. Yeah. And a lot of fuck Seattle too. But what the fuck is wrong with Seattle is such a great bit of dialogue. You know, I love mining those things because... that's when they realize they are in something that is beyond anything they've been before. So far, the biggest threat that we have encountered has been either the wolves or the seraphites, the wolves or the scarves.
we get to see the other threat that is lurking. And that is in the tunnel where we encounter our first horde. There's something that the little girl says in episode three when she's hiding with her dad and she knows there's trouble coming. And she says, demons? And he says, wolves. Well, who are the demons?
Oh, there's an infected problem in Seattle. Of course there is. Of course there is. In fact, we have now introduced the third army because there are three factions in Seattle all fighting for dominance. Our poor characters are once again caught between a battle like that and what was a fun way for Dina and Ellie to interact with the minimal infected that they thought were in Jackson.
The way that they'd become so casually confident in their abilities. You just count one, two, one-on-one. We can handle that. Well, the counting begins here again. And very quickly, Dina comes to understand there's no point in counting. It's a horde. And now the question is, how do you get through this? As always, why are we doing this? How does it change the relationship? There are these wonderful moments in episodes like this
where I have two shows that I'm watching. One is the episode on the screen, and the other is the episode that's happening on the couch next to me with my wife. who is covering herself with a pillow because it's so intense. Now I know you guys, I know how much you just enjoy what will end up being torture for the audience. how much fun was this to think up and then also execute i can't imagine
Thinking up was fun. Executing was so hard. Let's start with Don McCauley, our production designer, who finds, along with Nicole Chartrand, our location manager, finds this. unused, former, I think it was a paper mill of some sort. And it had railroad tracks because they would bring big freight train cars in, load them up with this stuff, and then send them back out.
so we have train tracks we have this big open facility and then Don goes and transforms it with his team into a metro tunnel and gets actual train cars to put in, derail. connect, redress, and then we all go in there for what seemed like nine years. Just nine years of smelling the flare smoke. God knows how many extras and God knows how many prosthetics.
And Joel Wist, our special effects wizard, had rigged the trains with his guys to rock back and forth with these little hydraulic levers. And we filled the train cars with skeletons. So it was an enormous undertaking. to do and it's one of those sequences where you begin it and you say to everybody here we go this is very exciting look how great the set is and then when you finally leave it you are torch it hollow you are broken and hollow
Well, for what it's worth, it really paid off on screen. Neil, how was it watching for you, just like being able to see this scene play out now on a different medium, a different screen? It's so surreal and moving and John Sweeney was the art director for the game on Last of Us Part II. And he and his team thought up this visual language for this story and how to use red as a form of danger and death. And you'll see this recurring in the show as well.
I know the challenges of what it takes to bring this to real life, and they're very different challenges than doing it purely in a digital form. So to see it at that scale and to know the actors are touching and feeling and Barry Gower and his team and the prosthetic, the incredible prosthetic that they've done.
a bunch of people and like there's so many infected are there like extras and you know there's varying levels of prosthetics based on how close they get to the camera and how much detail they have to do because you have to make so much of that stuff. So to wrangle all of that, it's literally an army of people that have to put all that together. Hundreds of people working for how many minutes of screen time? Five? Yeah, it is. Like I said, a duck press. It takes so much time. People ask why.
Do these shows take so much time between seasons? Well, because we don't have the luxury of a workplace with a standing set. Mostly talking and walking around. We are making movies. There's also meetings months in advance for something like this. So many meetings.
Just again, just focus on prosthetics for a second. It's like we would sit in meeting after meeting after meeting of like iterating on the infected and their clothing and deterioration of the clothing and the staining. And that's just the infected. Right. All that goes into every detail that you're seeing on screen. Do you feel like it would have been pulled off without meeting after meeting after meeting? No, I can't imagine how it would. No, no. I mean, listen.
Everybody that has worked with me on the show, if they heard me just say what I said, they would start laughing because nobody complains more about meetings than I do. Nobody. I don't enjoy a meeting. That meeting and the 4,000 other meetings is why no one gets hurt. Because we're doing a lot of dangerous work out there. Just the shot. of Ellie and Dina running along the top of the train. When we're following them, we've got our cameraman.
suspended in a chair that's hanging by wires that is connected to rigging that the gaffers have put over all of this so that he can sort of... It's like a ski lift behind them. I don't know how they do these things. I really don't. But this all gets figured out and it's all done safely. And it takes all those meetings to make sure that when we get there, we're at least...
94% of where I would like it to be. And then, you know, my job is to be annoying to get the rest of the 6%. One of the things that stands out to me is not only is it, of course, obviously it pays off to do these big, huge set pieces with all this action, but to also... infuse and inject an incredible plot moment with now revealing this is where Dina gets to see Ellie is not only getting bit, she's using that almost as...
As a defense, it's almost as a shield, and she's willfully letting someone bite her. Dina is now faced with the decision. She knows that Ellie's been bit, and she knows what she has to do next. Yeah, that's right from the game. That choice that Ellie makes, that moment, it takes place in a slightly different context because in the game, they're in spores. Right, they're wearing gas masks. They're in gas masks, and Dina's mask breaks, and Ellie takes hers off and gives it to Dina.
And in that moment, Dina discovers right away that Ellie is immune because there's no other way Ellie could be breathing this. We have a slightly different circumstance. And I think anybody who's listened to Neil and I talking about the season and who carefully watch a trailer know that spores are coming, but not yet. And what's interesting about this moment is there's a chance for a delay. There's a chance for Ellie to escape with Dina, not even realize.
In the moment, like, oh yeah, in the heat of the moment, I forgot. She doesn't know. Right. and then to turn around and see Dina holding a gun on her. And for Ellie to have to figure out how to convince somebody to not shoot her. That scene was so much fun to do because it was one of those classic acting exercises. You don't want to kill her, but you must. You have to convince her to not kill you even though there's no reason for her to believe you. Go. And to see how...
Isabella got right to this incredibly emotional place. She's already mourning the loss of Ellie even before she pulls the trigger. and to see Bella engaging in a panic exercise in rationality to talk her down. And she has to talk fast. Fast. Fast. That this is like defusing a bomb. I know you don't believe me. I get it. I wouldn't believe me either.
I'm gonna walk over there, nice and slow, with that big fucking chair, and I'm gonna banish my arm, and I'm gonna go to sleep. You're gonna sit as far away from me as you want, and you're gonna keep that gun pointed on me. If I turn, shoot me, but I promise. a lot of times i wish this wasn't true i'm gonna wake up exactly as i am right now
And what Ellie goes to is what she remembers. And what she remembers is how Joel and Tess treated her when they found out. They made her sit across the room and they kept their guns on her all night. And that's what she reverts back to. It's not the only time she's going to revert back to that old memory in the season. But this, I think, is the first time it happened.
And, you know, we were talking about setups and payoffs earlier. Think back to episode one of this season where Dina comes around jovially and asks Ellie, are you bitten? Am I going to have to shoot you in the face? And they joke about it. But now it's dead serious. Yeah. My favorite thing here... is this kind of explosive thing from Dina. Dina is emotionally kind of explosive in the way that is opposite from Ellie. Ellie explodes in anger and rage. And Dina explodes in positivity and light.
And she has been sitting there this whole night. praying that Ellie will be okay. And she is. And she gets close enough to make sure. And in that moment, she decides, I'm going to give you... Not a little bit. I'm going to give you... Everything. Everything. Everything. I'm going to tell you that I'm pregnant and then I'm going to give myself to you in every way and reveal who I am and reveal how I feel about you and be as intimate with you as two people can be.
All in a kind of explosive moment, which she explains after is because she thought she'd lost her. I thought you were gone. And then all of a sudden, this future I was imagining wasn't going to happen. where we're together and we have a kid and i don't even know if you want that By the way, this is quite different from the game. In the game, Ellie and Dina hooked up way back in Jack.
before they set off on this journey. This was a change that Craig and I discussed very early on that we wanted to do. And you can see there's a bunch of knock-on effects that required it. Tommy not being with Joel, that's different from the game he was defending Jackson. Spores versus a bite. All those things led to a very different moment that I find beautiful. And I love this version of how they get together. It's really well done. There's this moment after.
In some ways, it's the morning scene and the conversation they have that is, you asked earlier, you know, what's more fun, the setup or the reveal? Well, this is the reveal. This is the part where because you did all that work, you get to play the song. And the music here is dina explaining and one of the things we talked about was how different the world is now than it was in 2003 and and if you don't have any of that progress it's a lot easier to imagine how
Somebody who isn't just plain old straight is going to feel how they're going to be scared. And we saw what Seth said in the town. He can hardly be the only one. So that fear, not that people aren't afraid now, I mean, they are too, but it is different now. I see that with my kids' generation. They never get there, right? So this is a scary thing for Dina.
And there's also this, oh my gosh. So Emily Mendez, our editor, is just like really masterful at cutting these scenes together and figuring out where to go and when. And finding the moments that are so true. And one of the moments I love is when Dina says, Not everyone's as brave as you. I'm not brave. Just obvious. Ellie is so confident in who she is. So confident. Ellie couldn't possibly be closeted she doesn't have time for that she's just not
That's not possible for her. Her closeting is about other things. Her closeting is about her rage. Her closeting is about her immune status. Watching the two of them have that conversation in this very real, beautiful way. And here we see how Isabella and Bella's chemistry is...
As far as I'm concerned, it's kind of unparalleled in my experience. Working with actors who need to be in love, that's a hard thing, you know? They're just so good at it, and it's so natural to them. I'm very grateful for that. We end the episode with all cards on the table, on the rooftop with explosions in the distance. Things are different now. We have to make a decision. Do we go back or do we go on?
Let's talk about the decision that Dina makes. Ellie's decision is, do I go on by myself because you're pregnant? And now we're in love. I finally got you. You know, I mean, Ellie's been pining for Dina for a long time. Well, she has her now and she's pregnant. She's not going to take her into that war zone. And Dina's argument is, no, no, we are together. So we are doing it together.
Warzone on the horizon and the stakes raised. That's where we will leave this episode. Thank you both for joining me here again today. Thank you. Thank you, Troy. This has been the official podcast for the HBO original series, The Last of Us. Our senior producer is Emmanuel Hapsis, our producer is Elliot Adler, and Darby Maloney is the editor. This episode was mixed by Raj Makhijan.
Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis and Barry Finkel. Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Alison Cohen, Aaron Kelly, and Kenya Reyes from the Max podcast team. Production music is courtesy of HBO, and you can watch episodes of The Last of Us on Max. Make sure to join us next week as we talk through episode five of season two. Until then, no matter what, you keep finding someone to fight for.