Wow. Fucking Seattle. Pretty. Plus no one's shooting at us. because there aren't that many wolves. Welcome back to the official podcast for the HBO original series, The Last of Us. I'm Troy Baker, and I played Joel in The Last of Us video game. Here with me today, as always, are the series showrunners Neil Druckmann. Hello, Troy. And Craig Mazin. Hello, Troy. That was very ominous, Neil. Hello. Hello. Hello. I'm excited to unpack episode three of season two.
And just for those listening, there are spoilers ahead. So if you haven't watched the episode yet, please, by all means, stop listening to this. Go watch the episode and then come back and join us for the rest of the conversation. This episode is called The Path. It was written by Craig and directed by Peter Hoare. And I want to point out, boy, we just get right into it.
Yeah. Cool. So the episode starts with these epic shots of Jackson in the aftermath. Not only the attack on Jackson, but also the attack on Joel. we see this very somber, almost ritualistic thing that's happening between Tommy and... Someone underneath the sheet that we can assume is Joel. We see the wrist and the watch. Tommy begins doing this beautiful cleaning of the body. And he says, give Sarah my love.
What were your, both of your mentality going into this episode, obviously knowing what would follow after? Episode two, was there hesitation? Was there trepidation? Was there excitement? What were you feeling going into episode three? Well, I felt every single thing that you just said. We knew that...
Joel's death was going to impact the audience in a profound way. It certainly impacted us in a profound way. And it seemed to us that these first moments needed to show a kind of respect for the character. and needed to acknowledge what had happened here. And we wanted to begin with family because all the way back in the beginning, before... Boston, QZ, and the world ending, and Ellie, there was Joel and Tommy and Sarah.
And now it's down to Tommy. Joel and Sarah are gone. And starting with family there was incredibly important. And we wanted to get a sense that this town was going to need to heal. This episode, I find, is one of the more special in this season. It's something, you know, in the game. Joel dies. And then we have a very short period of time because we have to get back to an action because we made an action game where we have like a sort of a wake.
where you're honoring who this person was, and you get to sit with these characters who are just grieving. They don't have a new goal yet. They're not doing anything other than just grieving. And this was such a great opportunity to work with Craig. expand on it in the show we get to spend like all like quite a bit of this episode just seeing
The weight of not only Joel dying, but something that's new for this story, this version of the story, is what happened to Jackson. And he wasn't the only one to die. A lot of people have died. The town was destroyed. The town... was wrecked in many ways and that scene that uh you know beautiful scene that craig wrote with tommy and joel I find it very moving. And I remember there used to be more dialogue there. And Craig and I discussed it, went back and forth.
But that Sarah line does bring it back to the beginning in an interesting way, because there's also something lovely we would like to all believe, which is when people pass away, they are reunited with their loved ones. And the most horrific thing that has ever happened in Joel's life is the loss of his daughter. Out of that beautiful line, give Sarah my love, the camera begins to move back.
And we see that it's not just Joel and Tommy that are in this room, but there are the bodies of presumably everybody that died in that attack. And Joel died. And Tommy is taking care of Joel. But look at all these other people. Do they count? What do their families do? What do their brothers and children do? Do they seek justice for what's happened? Do they go out there and find more infected and punish them?
Everybody is grieving, but there are certain kinds of grievances and certain kinds of people that when they are consistent with each other... then this kind of potential violence emerges. And that is something that's going to come up over and over, which is to say, why do you get the right? to seek and deliver justice while the rest of us do not. And we cut from there straight into...
Another person that was deeply impacted by this death, and that's Ellie. Who is in the hospital, which is obviously overrun with people that are... need a medical attention because of the attack that just happened, but she's in really bad shape. And this is something that Neil and I talked about quite a bit, which was... How to give Ellie time to create narratively the ability for her to have to sit there in her... Grief and her despair and her anger.
And take away her ability to do anything about it for a long time. So that we understand that when she finally is released. now she is ready she has thought it through at least as best as ellie can to do what she thinks needs to happen but she is forced
to live with this. And at least initially here, when she wakes up, we understand that while her body may be healing from what is almost certainly a cracked rib and pneumothorax, Her mind is right there in that room watching Joel die over and over. is not something that is going to heal as easily as a punctured lung. No question. It seemed to me like, Neil, this is kind of an opportunity.
to explore the psyche of the character that is impacted by that. Can you talk to me about the development of this specific scene of finding Ellie in the hospital? Because it's quite different than the game. Yeah, it goes back to what Craig was saying earlier, is we wanted to buy time. And every one of these scenes, you know, in the game, it was more... just about Joel and Ellie and the impact of Joel, because whatever attacks happened in Jackson didn't happen in the same exact moment.
Here, there's this interesting back and forth where it's like, we're with Ellie. As an audience, we're rooting for Ellie because we know her, but we can't help but notice all the chaos and mayhem around her. Whatever is happening to her is happening to a lot of other people around here. And this is also starting to plant some seeds.
This is something we also explore in the game and that Heli Gross was largely responsible for, is this PTSD, this idea that this trauma just keeps recurring over and over and over, and it's so hard to move past it. And this is the first instance where it's happening to Ellie. But we get the sense that, yeah, this is not something she's maybe will ever shake. And just to give credit to Bella Ramsey, which we do frequently because it's well-deserved.
She's come out of this episode two where we asked her as a performer to do this kind of impossible moment of shock and grief and terror and then rage. And here we are at the beginning of the very next episode, and we're asking her to do it again, but in this way that is so gut-wrenching. Her ability to... portray an honest horror, true horror, is just remarkable. It makes me cry every time I see it because I believe it so much. She's really...
We had this shot in the trailer where she's screaming in this particular moment. And it speaks to how well she's performing here that everybody thought, oh, this is the moment of the event. This is the moment where Joel dies. And in a way it is and in a way it isn't, right? Because it is happening again in her head. But that's not the exact moment.
And there is a powerlessness that is expressed here, which is also very important to just take Ellie, who's such an active character, who's always impulsive and ready to, I'm going into the supermarket. Let's go fight a clicker. Let's go do this. And we take it all away. She can't even move. And now what happens when your method of control in the world is taken away and now you are passive and you have to watch this over and over?
You can imagine how over the course of three months, this is going to ferment in her brain into something that is very dangerous and very angry. And we cut from that moment straight to three months later, where now Ellie is raring to go. But there's one more person that she has to see, and that's Gail. When I got home, he was on the porch. And I should have talked to him. But I didn't.
Do you regret that? Yeah, of course. But your final moment with someone doesn't define your whole time with them. It shouldn't, but it often does. In my last moment with Joel, he said he wronged you. Maybe bad. What is it that he said that he did? Well, that's the thing. It didn't really make sense. He said, I saved her. Peter and I, Peter who directed the episode, Peter and I talked a lot about this scene as a fight, like an action fight, like a fist fight. But take away all the violence.
and use your words and your wiles. and your craft, both of them. And it is such a joy to watch. Catherine O'Hara and Bella Ramsey duel like this. And it's very simple. Gail wants to get to the bottom of what was really going on there because she's worried about Ellie. And Ellie needs to convince her that nothing happened. And inside of that, we start to wonder if Ellie isn't just lying to Gail, but also lying to us.
She says, yep, that's the thing I saw him on the porch. I should have talked to him and I didn't. I don't believe her, but maybe I do. It's hard to tell. Gail keeps pressing this notion that Joel wronged Ellie. What is she getting at? And I think her concern is that somebody has been psychologically damaged. I assume she's seen dozens of situations where children were hurt by their parents physically, emotionally, sexually. There's all sorts of abuse that occurs, and it can ruin people.
And she knows that Joel did something because he admitted it. He admitted that he did something to her. He said, I didn't hurt her. Well, what did you do? I saved her. What does that mean? And all Gail knows is that whatever Joel did, it's wrecking him inside. And Gail also knows that Joel and Ellie are not on good terms.
Angel is incredibly intelligent, like Ellie, like Maria. And I guess like Maria, she knows Joel has done horrible things before he came to Jackson. He might be a good guy now, but he wasn't always. I mean, just the fact what he did with her husband, which we still don't have the full picture of, something's really dark there. And Gail's primary concern, and it's the reason why she has to sign off before Ellie can walk out, is, are you okay?
And part of okay is not just how are you doing now that your father figure passed away three months ago. Part of okay is what did he do? And Ellie. It's hard to tell based on her response. Does she know what he did? Does she not know what he did? Does she care? We don't yet know. And it's pretty clear to Gail that... If Ellie knows, she's not saying a damn thing. You definitely see someone who is quite adept at...
working the system. This is a kid who has been in front of a counselor before, and I say this, then you say this, and then I say this, and you go, okay, and you get me out of here. That specific line that she says where your final moment with someone doesn't define your whole time with them. Let's talk about that as a thesis statement. Ellie's the one who interjects that notion. Well, just think about how many final moments Ellie's already had.
The moment with Tess, the moment with Riley, the moment with Henry and Sam. And those relationships meant so much more than those awful last moments that in order to convince someone of a lie, you have to tell them some truth. And Ellie is very, very smart in that way, in the way she's talking to Gail.
And it's interesting because there's a few lies throughout this episode that Ellie does. And we see that she never quite lets anybody in the way she's let Joel in. And that's why that loss is so impactful to her. There is one possibility that while she is saying her last moments with Joel don't define their relationship. Maybe it is. Not because it should, but because that's how it is in her heart. That maybe that last moment, and her last moment wasn't seeing him on a porch.
Because they sort of glide by that. Her last moment was seeing him on a floor in a ski lodge being murdered. That's the last moment. That's the one that maybe... is going to define her memory of Joel. What does she do now if she's locked inside of that? She was locked inside of it when we saw her in the hospital bed. Is she still locked inside of it? She's not screaming anymore. But that doesn't mean she's not still there. We go from the hospital to seeing Ellie alone. Going...
Joel's house the house that she shared with Joel I'm curious for you, Neil, what was that like for you? Again, kind of experiencing that. You had already done it for the game, and now we're going to put this, something that's very important to the game, now into the show. What was that like?
I remember making that sequence. I remember working on that sequence. You know, it's a level in the game. And just like the TV show, you know, we have to be so economical. Like, what are the parts? We show you these glimpses. And it's just enough to work your imagination so you can fill in the rest, right? You don't actually get to see Joel's funeral, but you can imagine.
And there are certain senses that you don't have that, you know, this was put in. I actually don't even know the source of this, but I just know one of the animators put this in. They're constantly, like, pitching stuff to me of, like, what should go in the game. And there was this. particular instance, if someone had this idea that Ellie should smell Joel's jacket. Yeah. And it was so powerful because there's something about that sense of smell that just immediately triggers your memory.
And then to see it honored in such a way, and again, just with so many praises we could throw at Bella, but it just feels so believable that there's this loss. You get these glimpses of this person. Oh, they wore this thing. They held this thing. This was their weapon. This was their smell. And you can't talk to them. You can't reach them. They're instantly gone. They're right there. So complex and rich. And now it's this empty house.
So it's this really beautiful and sad moment, as you know, she's making her way through it and seeing these totems, these artifacts that used to represent this person. And you're just flooded with memories. And Bella has taken us through this journey.
we have a few totems in the room the jacket obviously there is his watch that has been now carefully placed inside this red tin but it's not alone there's there's another item in there and that's joel's revolver well i'll tell you one thing that i love is that she opens that box sees the watch and immediately moves it aside The watch meant so much to Joel. That watch is a memory of his daughter. That watch is a memory of his past and the way his life got stuck.
What matters to Ellie is the gun. Because her relationship with Joel... was cemented in a kind of, no, in actual violence. He saved her with violence. She saved him with violence. She is going to avenge him with violence. It's also worth noting the flowers outside the house. That, you know, we get to experience Joel's loss through Ellie, but there's constant hints and evidence that Joel meant a lot to this community beyond Ellie.
There's this loss just of Joel that other people are feeling and the anger that other people are feeling as well. There's some interesting... moments of mystery in this that I enjoy. Well, for starters, It's pretty clear once she walks in that house that she's not okay. Even when she walked out of the hospital room and down the hallway and her face just darkens, we understand, oh.
There's murder on her mind. When she gets to this house and she wanders through, there's a kind of tentative nature. It feels like somebody who's entering kind of a sacred space, but she's not emotional. She's just a bit numb. And then she enters Joel's room, and that moment from the game, the jacket was just burned in my brain. And even I felt it on another level because...
I can't tell you the journey to deciding that that would be Joel's jacket in season one. And then just seeing Pedro every day in that jacket. It became part of it. We were all looking at that jacket feeling like, oh my God, we have to let go of this thing that is so connected to us. And then, once again, what Bella does there is so extraordinary because now you see the truth. She is broken. Absolutely broken.
And when she hears Dina's voice downstairs, the very first thing she does is panic and then wipe away the tears. Because no one gets to see what's inside the smallest community of all, which is her and Joel. That moment is, as you said, interrupted. The tears are cut off by hearing Dina downstairs. Dina shows up with cookies. Peace offering. Peace offering. And we find out that Dina knows more than she's told Ellie.
Please just listen. The doctors told me not to upset you. I don't give a fuck. And I knew that if I told you where they were, you'd just start pulling your tubes out and crawling on your hands and knees to get there. I don't give a fuck. You cost us time. You let them get away. This goes to our conversation of the clue chain. We get Ellie the information she needs to follow Abby and her crew back to where they live. But the clue chain couldn't come too soon.
Because if Ellie knows on her second day in the hospital who the people are, where she has to go, then the second she gets out, she should be packing and going. Or talking to people about it. Everyone should know about it. Her choices were smart. There was nothing Ellie could do in those three months when she was physically healing to avenge Joel, but she would have tried.
Dina knows Ellie well enough to know that Ellie would have crawled out of there. She would have done something stupid. Nothing can stop her when her mind is set to something. And so Dina waits for the day she gets out. Not one moment later, as soon as Ellie is out, Dina does the correct thing, which is to say, now this is information I have. Well, I guess arguably the correct thing. Yeah. Because...
She's doing what Ellie would want her to do, which is telling her, but she also knows the consequence of giving her this information. In my mind, Dina's down. Oh, yeah. I think she's down. Right, because this is the thing that's great about this version. Dina was there. Yes. Dina is also traumatized by this moment. This was an important thing that Neil brought up when we were working on the story here, and I took this and just put it right in there.
I loved him too, you know. And Isabella Merced is delivering this other way. Throughout this episode, and it's brilliant. I think she just does a brilliant job of showing how you can be hurt and you can grieve, you can be heartbroken, but still engage your... frontal lobe. Yeah. And think and plan and be smart about it. I think what Dina is going to correctly do is say, now that you're out... You and I should follow the right channels. Go to Tommy. Tell him what we know.
And let's get a posse together and let's go kill this woman. That is the smart plan. There's also a certain honor there, what Dina is doing, because Dina could have done this while Ellie was in the hospital. But some part of Dina knows it would have been wrong to go after these people without Ellie. I don't think Dina is even considering that it would just be her and Ellie yet. I think Dina thinks it's going to be me and you.
and 12 other people, and we're going out with horses and guns and overwhelming force to track them down and kill them. That is the smart thing to do. That should be plan A, and it is plan A.
I think it's even beyond smart for these two, which is like, to them, it's the only real option. Of course, everyone should arm up and go after these people. They did something horrific. The big difference between Joel and every other person that died in that town, everybody else that died in that town has died by... A natural disaster in a way. That's what the infected are. These people were done by another human's choice to torture and kill Joel. They must pay the price.
Well, in order to get those other 12 people that we have to have... Again, we go back to community and we see the town hall meeting. We get to see Seth again, which was a surprise, especially for the fact that now Seth is... They came into our house. They took one of ours. My God, somebody shoots your brother. You want to take the locks off your doors? Grow up. You idiots. They'll come back. They'll come back because we didn't make them pay. And when they come back, they'll be laughing.
Bunch of goddamn victims. We had talked about that scene quite a bit before anything was written and just the mechanics of that scene. And then I remember Craig sent me a draft of it. And I read it all the way through. And I got to that Seth, even before I got to the Ellie part, I read the Seth part. I started crying. It just hit me so hard that someone was advocating for Joel in that manner that felt right.
And he was making such a valid point. And the fact that it came from Seth, it was more impactful and felt more honest because Seth has every right to hate Joel, right? Joel pushed him down, humiliated him in front of the whole town. But he knows what was done to Joel was wrong and the people who did it must pay or they will be next.
And I love that. Yeah, I called Craig right away and I just gushed about that scene. We wanted to... be true to the story we had created inside of jackson so in the game in the first game you never get inside of jackson but in our first season we did and part of getting inside of jackson was understanding its mechanics There is a council. It is democratically elected. They make decisions as a community. There is law. Maria was a district attorney.
So law and democracy and order are how Jackson functions. And it was incredibly important to say, hey, even though we were attacked, what are we doing? We're repairing the fence. We're making it stronger. And we are recommitting to our ideals that we talk about these things together as a community. And that means Ellie has a chance.
to make her case, which is very perilous for Ellie. Because as Jesse understands, her case is going to be, what is wrong with all of you? Why aren't we already on horses going? That's her impulse. And what's fascinating here, and I love watching Bella's reaction, is that Seth, who has a dark side, clearly, who, when drunk, lets out some pretty ugly stuff.
is articulating exactly how Ellie feels, which is a very uncomfortable thing for her because she doesn't like him. And this happens sometimes in life, where somebody who we think is the opposite of us suddenly becomes a mirror of us. It makes us question those instances. To me, watching that, especially... off of the advice that Jesse had given, saying, don't go in angry. They'll say no to angry. And she sees it on display.
the chastisement, the admonishment that he gives to everybody in the room, the yelling, and the attempt to saber rattle the entire town into a lynch mob. Yes. And that's when we see Ellie pull out the note. You say it's a democratic thing, but in some ways, and I don't know if this is intentional or not, but again, I think it's not a bug. It's a feature. It's something cool when someone can look at the scene in a different way. Jesse clearly indicates that there is something...
That he knows that he can't tell. She's like, what? You're my friend. Tell me what's going to happen. He's like, I can't tell you. All I can tell you is. So it seems as if she is going in knowing the cards are stacked against her. And she was able to convince. Only three. Here's how I read Jesse's thing played beautifully by Young, which is it's not clear how he's going to go.
Clearly, he has attachment to Joel and attachment to the town, and he's wrestling with this idea, but he's so honorable. He tells Ali, if you have any chance to succeed, this is what you must do. And just my interpretation, that moment, he doesn't know yet how he'll vote. Even though he might disagree with her, he's still setting her up for success or the best version of success to make the best case.
And then whatever the outcome is, that is the correct outcome. Yeah, I completely agree. I think he's being a good friend to her there. And she does her best. This was a very difficult writing challenge and a very difficult acting challenge for me and for Bella. Write a speech that is pretty good.
but not honest, not true to yourself. So there's something synthetic about it and then perform it in a way where you're trying to convince people it's honest, but it's a little off. I know what I'm asking is a lot. I'm asking us to risk more people and resources and at the worst possible time. And I want everyone to know. It's not because I want revenge. It's not. It's not about revenge. What I want is what you used to give people.
Because it's either that or we do nothing. That's what everyone else out there is going to do for us. Nothing. A whole world of people who won't lift a finger if something bad happens to me or you. We have a word for these people. They're called strangers. There's this beautiful moment where we see Gail all the way up there on the balcony level listening to this. Everyone is listening so respectfully. And she's like, oh, please.
She knows exactly that this is a kind of calculation on Ellie's part to try and get people to do the thing that she wants to do out of pure anger. And it doesn't work. Not only does it not work. But the vote isn't really close, which is important. It wasn't like, okay, I can go back and just convince one person. It's not happening. They're not going for it. And if you were running Jackson, you'd probably vote no too.
It's interesting to get the kind of varied reaction to Joel's death by people that cared a lot about him. And we have Tommy, who's Joel's brother, who we see at the opening of this episode. He's wrecked, right? He's broken by his brother's death. And he, well, we don't get to see exactly how he voted. We could probably imagine.
And yet he respects the town's decision to not go after Joel. He's committed to this community above his own wants and needs. And he stays behind. He's part of rebuilding it. He's there hammering stakes in the ground. And he does articulate Joel's point of view, which is that vengeance is second. But he also says to Ellie, I got you. I'll back you. Of course I've got you. Because I'm theoretically the only family you have left.
I'm just going to throw in here, I don't think it's obvious how Tommy voted. You're wrong again. All interpretations are correct, except for yours. Except for yours. I could see a version of this where Tommy's like, I now have to protect her. That was Joel's job. It's now my job to protect her. And if she goes out there, she's going to get killed. What would Joel want? That's fair. I think you're right that his desire to protect Ellie probably overwhelms his desire for justice.
So you're all right, Troy. I apologize. I think you're both wrong. We go from that scene to... The baseball game, which is great. And Tommy joins Gail sitting there, of course, with an ice chest. Turns out nurture can only do this much. The rest is nature. If she's on a path, it's not one that Joel put her on. No. No. I think they were walking side by side from the very start.
Tommy, I get it. You inherited her and you want to keep her out of trouble. Take it from a psychotherapist of 40 years. Some people just... Some people just can't be saved. This is sort of the question of the entire thing. What does it mean to be saved? And can it happen at all in this world? Is someone doomed to go down a path that we would call wrong? Is there a redemption that is possible? And Gail's point here is arguable. I don't know if she's right.
She is presenting the fatalistic point of view, which is Ellie's broken. She started broken. She got more broken. Now she is really broken. So stop blaming yourself or worrying about being responsible for her, fixing her. You can't. She's busted. She might be right, but so much of me wishes that she's not. And that is the question for everything that comes from this point forward. Do you feel like Gail is writing her off? Oh, yeah.
Oh, for sure. I mean, Gail's not wrong about a whole bunch of things. Gail says she's a liar. There's a difference between lying and being a liar. Oh, I know. And that one, liar. Correct. We have seen Ellie lying from the beginning. She didn't even tell the fireflies her real name. She lies all the time. It's part of her survival mechanism. She says... Nurture can only do this much. The rest is nature. You are who you are. And it sure seems like that's the case too, because when we meet Ellie...
Before she ever met Joel, when she's just a kid in federal school, she's punching people in the face. She's a problem. She was born in blood. And there is that nature in her. And in fact, her relationship with Joel seems like a combination of two people that had very similar natures. So Gail says they were walking side by side from the very start. I think that's true.
And the question is, what are the subtle differences between their natures? And Tommy's going to articulate one very carefully, and that was something that Neil really zeroed in on and so important. But he does it with... with Ellie, he says, Joel wouldn't go after people to punish them for what they did. Joel would try and save people. and he would blame himself if he failed, which we know is true.
But he wouldn't pursue vengeance. That wasn't what motivated him. And therein is a difference between their natures. And maybe Gail is zeroing in on that, that Joel... had a secret, something that he did that he was ashamed of and yet needed to do. Ellie has an anger that is dangerous and goes outward. And where she goes from here, hard to say. But yes, in my mind, Gail has written her off. No question.
We have the outcome of the vote. And as you said, Craig, it wasn't even close. It was an absolute shutout. But it's clear that nothing is going to deter Ellie from going out and seeking her revenge. And then Dina shows up. So, uh, what's your plan? Go to Seattle and kill Abby. What route? Northwest and is that all guns or do you have medical supplies in there? No? Well, better not land weird on an ankle or get a fever on your well-charted path northwest.
Ellie is not good at planning. Ellie is amazing at doing things. And Ellie is incredible when it comes to persistence. dedication and single-mindedness. And Dina, once Dina sees the outcome of the vote, I think she spends the rest of the day planning. because she knows exactly what Ellie is going to do. And sure enough, when she gets there,
Ellie's plan is not a plan at all. Her plan is go to Seattle, kill Abby. That's it. Yeah. If Dina got there an hour later, Ellie might have already been gone. Exactly. We make sure people understand how formidable Dina is. And how smart she is. And how, in fact, Ellie will need her to survive. But we also can see this interesting thread beginning here that started in episode one. where Ellie has more than a little bit of a crush on Dina. Even saying, we'll share a horse.
you can see Ellie's heart skip a beat or two. There is something exciting about the thought of her being able to do this specifically with Dina. There's also a few important things to note. When Dina talks about, she got some of the information about the WLF from Eugene. And she thinks it's not going to be that big of a group. She turns out to be quite incorrect at the end of the episode.
But even with that, it's still an incredibly dangerous mission to go across a section of the U.S. to try to find these people in the city. We don't know what's waiting for us, how many infected are going to be there, any of that. And there's two things that Dina cares a lot about, and it's not clear at this point which one outweighs the other, which is like, she cared a lot about Joel, and she saw him get horribly tortured and murdered.
And she cares a lot about Ellie. And she would probably die for her. That's how much she loved her. And that's why she's committed to go on this. What should have been a 12-person posse has now been whittled down into two teenagers. Yeah, I guess they are. They're 19. Yeah. We've talked a lot about Seth and...
You know, in the game, he is kind of a one and done character. But here he does represent a lot more seemingly. And he stands up, as you said, Neil, he defends Joel in a way that nobody else really has. And ultimately... Seth is the one that helps them escape. Yeah, you know, we show that Seth has a limp now, that somewhere in that attack on Jackson, he got hurt, probably irreparably. He's played brilliantly by Robert John Burke.
And we see actually that he's the one waiting at the gate. He is the one that Dina has been talking about that's going to give them the supplies that they need. to seek out the revenge, to seek out justice. And you get the sense that if his leg was okay, he'd be riding along with them. That's how strongly he believes in it. There's, to me, a fascinating moment where he puts out his hand.
To shake. And she doesn't like him. Even after his defense of Joel and the town meeting, she's not going to forgive this guy. But then he's done this thing to help them. He puts his hand out and there is a pause. And then she puts her hand out and they shake their hands in this kind of classic masculine concession. And I think of it as concession. And this is interesting because... Ellie is an us or them, black and white, good and bad, me and you sort of person. And Seth has screwed that up.
And I think she's very conflicted here. It is that weird thing of thinking you were them and then suddenly, but you look a whole lot like us. So what does this say about me? Early in the episode, Tommy says, we buried them outside of town. And she says, I'll go see him on my way. Out. Well, on my way to Seattle is when I'll go see him. And we get that moment. First of all, I could ask you why so far away from town? Most towns have a graveyard.
inside. Yeah. I think they picked that spot because it was beautiful. They live in an unpopulated Wyoming, which by the way, currently is barely populated. Wyoming is the least populated state in our nation. It's got the most. I think other than Alaska, it's got the most space per person. So there's a lot of land, and they can choose. And I think that they don't want to have a graveyard inside their fences. I think they want to use that space carefully. And I think...
So many people die in this world so often that— the inside of your town will slowly become all cemetery. So you don't want to ride over this every time you go out on patrol. You want to pick someplace that feels... sun-kissed and warm and beloved by God above. And let's keep death out. Yes, and let's keep death out. We get this beautiful, as you said, this sun-kissed area. This is nice. This is where they would, quote, want to be. Yeah. And we find Ellie at Joel's grave. And...
Yeah, this is different from the game. You know, I always tell Craig, if we're going to change something, it better be really good. This is really good. In the game, you know, she kneels by the grave and she picks up the dirt and she touches the earth as if like the dirt is some connection to him. Again, graves are such a weird, it's a weird thing if you think about it. There's like this body there, but consciousness is gone.
But you're somehow using this location to try to communicate with this person. Again, there's no way to really talk to them anymore. And she leaves him this gift, these coffee beans, because coffee meant so much to Joel and became this rare thing after the outbreak to find. And we see this little smile on her face. It's just a really beautiful moment. This is a chance for all of us to say goodbye.
We are pretty much where Ellie is. I think people have been hopefully looking forward to this episode, but it's been a rough week. since what happened. And when it begins, we're all in that space of just ripped up. And by this point, my hope is that everybody can kind of be where Ellie is, which is to say heartbroken. but quietly and calmly saying goodbye. on our way to avenging him.
I love the idea of coffee beans because she didn't like coffee. She thinks it tastes like burnt shit. And she never got it. This was for him. This was a him thing. And the smile that Bella does there that turns into this, it's different. It's not screaming. It's not crying anymore. There's tears in her eyes, but they're not rolling. This is the next level of grief. This is the long pain, the long ache, not the acute misery.
She does still put her hand on that dirt because I think it's so beautiful. And then we all get to say goodbye to him. And I thought it was important to honor him. You know, we love Joel. And it hurt all of us. Sometimes stories go this way, where you create heartache. on the journey of narrative to arrive somewhere that is hopefully better or healed or meaningful. Okay, but I have a stupid question. It's about New Year's Eve and, you know, the kids.
Dina is engaging in behavior that I would describe as tricky. And a little manipulative. Dina says, who are you taking to the dance? You should take Kat. You know what? You don't want to take Kat? Come with me. It'll be fine. We'll have fun as friends. Then she's at the dance. high as a kite, and essentially seduces Ellie and kisses her in front of everyone. And when we see them together in this tent, sleeping together, although, you know, side by side for the first time.
There's this additional level of teasing and trickiness. And the question is, why is Dina doing this? Why is she asking, rate my kiss? Why is she saying, well, I'm not gay. You are. And then why does she say at the end, I wasn't that high? All of this. weird mindfuck behavior.
Am I allowed to say mindfuck on this? You just did. It's great. This mindfuck behavior should be, I think, frustrating for everyone to watch. It's definitely frustrating for Ellie. Where do I stand with her and what is her deal? For people who have played the game, the relationship changes in a different way and much earlier.
So there may be right now some consternation. And it's well-learned consternation because it's funny. Sometimes you write these things and you think, I don't like what you just did. I don't think I like what Dina is doing here, but my hope is that... There will be some sort of explanation and perhaps some additional level of honesty yet to come. Something else that's interesting about the relationship at this point is Joel knew Ellie the most. If there's someone second to that, it's Dina.
And likewise, I think if Ellie is trusting of anybody else other than Joel, it's Tina to that large degree. And they're riding into Seattle and they're talking about, tell me about the first person you killed. Jesus, really? Yeah, fun stories of childhood. Okay, well the first one's too fucked up, but I can tell you the second one. I accept. And it's important who Ellie says because the first part that Ellie actually killed is Riley. Right. And she does not bring that up because that is too...
Soft of a spot for her. Yeah. The first one is too fucked up. It's actually almost a moment of levity. She's like, we're not even going to talk about that one. That's really fucked up. So the way that she addresses that, but then she goes into such specific detail. about the second. Well, what I find interesting, and this conversation was drawn from the game, I love... how two 19-year-olds having a chat, 19-year-olds now, tell me the first time you kissed somebody. What was your first kiss?
They get to say, who's the first person you killed? Not, have you killed a person? And they're not talking about infected. This is sort of something that everybody grows up with. And so Ellie, yeah, casually tells her about the second one. I think because she's kind of proud of it, it's messed up. What happened is messed up, but she saved Joel's life there. That's what kind of matters.
But the other thing that I find so interesting, Ellie doesn't ask Dina about the first person she killed. And I feel like if someone goes, all right, let's talk about the first person you killed. The natural next question is... Now your turn. Yeah, exactly. And so perhaps that turn will come. There's a new danger. We were introduced in episode one and two to a new group of people that ultimately would bring about the destruction of Joel.
And now there's a new group that we see lurking somewhere. They have scars on their faces. They carry hammers. They communicate with whistles. They are running from, as we see. Why can't you tell me where we're going? Because we don't know yet. I told you the reason we're going. I know, but why can't she just keep us safe? The prophet? She's been dead 10 years, Constance. I'm going to count on her to help. But Ezra said the prophet is eternal. Well, she is in a way.
When we're working on the sequel, Last of Us Part II, with each group, let's go even back to season one. With each group, we wanted to represent a different way of survival. The whole planet has had a traumatic moment with the outbreak. And now you have FEDRA has decided to deal with it by imposing martial law, removing voting rights. And that's how they protect their people. That's how they save.
We saw Kansas City was another version. They overthrew FEDRA. They were hunting people down. Again, they didn't quite have the rule of law of FEDRA. And we'll get into another group that's similar to that. Then we had David's group. Which again, we saw a hint of like, okay, here is like a religious fanatic and how he leads his people and ultimately leads them to cannibalism.
And we were very curious about what if we leaned even more into the religious aspect? What if like in the outbreak, a different kind of religion arose? There was some leader that through their scriptures, through their teaching, through their philosophy. was able to protect a large group of people and then like many cults that often become religions those ideals then evolve and change and have turned this group that referred to themselves as the Serv Fighters.
And they have certain rituals, which is why you see the scars across their face, which is why they dress the way they do. They're sort of Luddites, it seems like. They're carrying bows and arrows and hammers, as you said. But we'll get to see this other group that has survived through their belief system that has kept them alive. And that's why they lean so heavily into it. This is our first view of Seattle, or at least Seattle adjacent.
We meet these people who seem quite kind and quite peaceful. They're refugees. They are leaving a war. They're fleeing a war zone to try and find peace. And they are led by a father and a little girl, which seems very, very familiar. The way they talk to each other has that kind of true lived-in father-daughter thing. I mean, Neil always talked about Cormac McCarthy's The Road and how influential that was on The Last of Us. And I remember reading The Road and thinking if there's...
One thing that Cormac McCarthy got right, and there's about a billion things he got right in that, it's that children never stop asking goddamn questions. It goes on and on and on. Question, question, question, question. And this little girl has that curiosity. And he's doing his best. And I love them. When she gets that hammer, that look of joy and...
And then in a very fatherly way, the little lesson he gives her, which is, guess what? The hammer's not going to work. Distance. We got to get away from the bad people. And then there is that warning and he hides with her and she says, demons? And he says, wolves, which is almost worse. But what are the demons?
And what's going to happen to them? I mean, I don't know about you, but when I meet them, I'm on their side. Well, especially when we find them later in the episode and we see the aftermath of these wolves. So much so that it causes a very interesting reaction to Dina. She throws up. She says it must have been the smell.
I mean, that is a moment from the game that has changed somewhat. I think in the game, you encounter a dead horse and some dead infected possibly, and that smell does it, and here it's this. But it's the same thing. It is a bit confusing for Dina and for Ellie. It's also important for the viewers to pay attention to how you're viewing all these bodies. There's constant violence and conflict in the show.
But there's something about seeing the dead kid that makes you judge whoever killed him immediately. What kind of group would do this? Yeah. Would murder this innocent child that was just, to Craig's point, just asking all these innocent questions and wanting, like... is filled with curiosity about this world. It almost seems simple. Seattle seems maybe like there are good guys and bad guys.
You know, let's see. That's how we end this episode actually, is seeing our first kind of look at Seattle in full force with... The Wolves on Parade, Tank and All, which is where we will pick up next week's episode. This has been the official podcast for the HBO original series, The Last of Us. Our senior producer is Emmanuel Hapsis, our producer is Elliot Adler, and Darby Maloney is the editor. This episode was mixed by Raj Makhijar.
Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis and Barry Finkel. Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Alison Cohen, Aaron Kelly, and Kenya Reyes from the Max podcast team. Production music is courtesy of HBO, and you can watch episodes of The Last of Us on Max. Make sure to join us next week when we talk through Season 2, Episode 4. And until then, endure and survive.