LIVE: A Prison Designed to Inspire Penitence, or True Regret, in the Hearts of Prisoners

episodes begin on January five. So in the meantime, follow me on social media at Amy Bruney on just about everything, or you can join us on a Strange Escapes trip by heading to Strange dash escapes dot com. We have a ton planned for, including a European cruise that I am especially excited about. Also, new episodes of Kindred Spirits, my TV show on Travel Channel and Discovery Plus, start on December. So have a wonderful season and cheers two

lots of spookiness in so enjoy. Oh my goodness. All right, can everyone hear me? Okay, before we get started, I want to warn you that some of the accounts and experiences I am going to relate to you are absolutely horrifying and disturbing. Usually usually when listening to Haunted Road, there is a pause or fast forward button. You all don't have that option, but I promise we won't judge you if you need to leave at any point. But this is a live recording, so please don't slam the

door on the way out. That being said, I have an apology to make. On the season one finale of Haunted Road. During the interview with Adam Burry and John Tenney, Adam brought up the story of a painting here at the Mount Washington Hotel where we are recording right now, and I said I would tell the story of the painting at the end of the episode. But guess what I didn't do. So the episode was released and immediately my social media went wild with folks dying to know

the story of the painting. So here, actually, sitting inside the Mount Washington Hotel, I will tell you so. First of all, if you have not listened to the season finale of Haunted Roads, stop right now and head back to season one, episode twelve, then rejoin me here for this, especially macab Tail. Except for all of you sitting here, you are stuck hanging just off the lobby of the resort, here, just inside the hallway. To the right of the front desk,

you will see two large paintings. One is Caroline Stickney and one is Joseph Stickney, the man who built this hotel and died just a year later. There they are regally looking down at you as you pass, an homage a reminder of their prominence in the history of the hotel. Except there is something very very off there. In April of seven years before the Mount Washington Hotel was built, a horrible bank robbery took place in Somersworth, New Hampshire.

The cashier, a gentleman seventy years of age, was brutally murdered by the bank robber. A description of how he was found is described in a clipping from the United Opinion as on the floor, in a great pool of blood was the body of the cashier. His head had been nearly severed from the trunk. The head was marked with several deep gashes made by a blackjack, and the skull was fractured. The body was covered with blood, and the walls and furniture bore additional evidence of the terrible deed.

It could be seen at a glance that the cashier had not died without fighting desperately for the Book's chairs and other furniture were scattered over the floor behind the counter. Physicians who have examined the body say it is apparent that the victim was pounded to death after being rendered unconscious. Another fact brought out by the autopsy is that the weapon used to cut the victim's throat was a medium sized knife, the blade of which was very dull and

left a deep, but irregular wound. The jugular vein was severed and the wound extended from one side of the head across the throat to a point under the other ear. Now, the bank robber was eventually caught. His name was Joseph Kelly. The Somersworth police caught onto him and learned he had

traveled north. They traced his movement to a town in Quebec. There, he had paid a hotel keeper ten dollars in gold for a woman's dress and left the hotel wearing the dress, saying that he wanted to surprise his wife, who lived in Montreal. Kelly was found in a Montreal brothel, sitting between two prostitutes and still wearing the dress. He was subsequently arrested and jailed for his crime. But what of the bank cash here, Well, it turns out the bank

cashier's name was Joseph Stickney. Decades later, the hotel commissioned portraits of Caroline Stickney and Joseph Stickney to hang in the lobby, except the artist somehow got his hands on a rendering of the bank cashier, not the Joseph Stickney who built this hotel. So the portrait you see in the lobby is not of the wealthy business tycoon Joseph Stickney, but of the seventy years old murdered bank cashier, Joseph Stickney.

So now that we've cleared that up, and speaking of crimes and criminals, let's take a journey to another notoriously haunted location, a place not nearly as charming or bougie as where we are now. Friends, we are headed to Eastern State Penitentiary. I'm Amy Brune, and this is haunted road. In sevente Dr Benjamin Rush founded the Philadelphia Society for Alleviating the Miseries of Public Prisons, the first prison reform group in the world. Benjamin Franklin joined the group on

August thirteen. Just two years later, Dr Rush oversaw the formation of penitentiary house with a capacity of sixteen cells. It was built in the Walnut Street Jail in Philadelphia, and an experiment with day and night solitary confinement began. Dr. Benjamin Rush and others in the Society hoped to outlaw public punishments and replace the current overcrowded and corrupt prison

system with a system of private solitary confinement. Rush proposed a radical idea to build a true penitentiary, a prison design to inspire j new and regret and penitence in the hearts of people convicted of crimes. From the inception of the Society in the late seventeen eighties, it took more than three decades before Eastern State Penitentiary was constructed.

The group of Philadelphians who conceived and designed Eastern State Penitentiary were working within the framework of the newly industrializing cities. Formal institutions of many sorts were being developed to replace the informal methods of managing community life. Everything from banking to the education of the deaf was becoming specialized, professionalized, and controlled. These leaders promoted the development of orphanages, almshouses, schools,

and cemeteries. ESP then takes some of its importance from the fact that it was an integral part of an urban renovation that included many new facilities for community improvement. After Russia, society spent years advocating for a new way of imprisonment beyond the seventeen ninety Walnut Straight Jail. The Pennsylvania legislature approved funding to build the Eastern State Penitentiary in eighty one. Once construction was greenlit by the state,

four hopeful architects submitted their designs for consideration. Of those, John Havelind, a British architect who had settled in Philadelphia, won the commission. He received a one hundred dollar prize for his design. Rival, architect William Strickland, whose design had been rejected, was chosen to oversee the construction. Strickland, however, was fired from this position the following year, and Haveland was hired in his place to oversee the construction of

his initial design. Havelan saw the project through to its completion in eighteen thirty six. The bones of the building were shaped to reflect the religious aspirations of its creators, Although modern these were still sparse and austere spaces. Prisoners could choose between reading the Bible or honest work like shoemaking or weaving. The interior of the penitentiary resembles a church with its thirty foot barrel vaulted hallways and tall

arch windows. In contrast, the exterior is a menacing medieval Gothic facade built to intimidate that ironically implies that physical punishment took place behind those grim exteriors. Virtually all prisons designed in the eighteen hundreds were based on one of two systems, New York State's Auburn system or the Pennsylvania

system embodied by the Eastern State Penitentiary. During the century following Eastern States construction, more than three hundred prisons in South America, Europe, Russia, China, Japan, and across the British Empire were based on its plan. Robert vo of the Philadelphia Society, who had been extensively involved in the planning

of the penitentiary, summarized the basic principles of the system. One, Prisoners shouldn't be treated, not vengefully, but in ways designed to convince them that through hard and selective forms of suffering, they could change their lives too. To prevent the prison from being a corrupting influence. Solitary confinement of all inmates

should be practiced. Three. In his seclusion, the offender was to have an opportunity to reflect on his transgressions so that he might repent for Solitary confinement is a punishing discipline because man is by nature a social being. And five. Solitary confinement is economical because prisoners do not need long periods of time to benefit from the penitential experience, Fewer keepers are required, and the costs of clothing are reduced.

The strong faith in reformation coupled with deterrence is very evident. Eastern State Penitentiary was the world's first true penitentiary, a prison designed to inspire penitence or true regret in the hearts of prisoners. ESP refined the revolutionary system of separate incarceration first pioneered at the Walnut Street Jail, which emphasized principles of reform rather than punishment. The penitentiary originally consisted of seven cell blocks that radiated from a central surveillance rotunda.

In this concept, each prisoner had their own private cell, centrally heated with running water, a flush toilet, and a skylight adjacent to Each cell was a private outdoor exercise yard contained by a ten foot wall. These blocks may represent the first modern building in the United States. The physical design of the structure was as much of a marvel as were the inward methods. The building has been expanded numerous times, but the earliest parts of the construction

were the first seven blocks. Some interesting context, This modern design was particularly impressive for its time. Even the White House, with its new occupant Andrew Jackson, had no running water and was still heated by coal burning stoves. In eighteen thirty six, the initial footprint was finally completed. ESP covered an area of eleven acres with state of the art plumbing,

sewage systems, and four hundred fifty centrally heated cells. The whole endeavor had cost nearly seven hundred eighty thousand dollars, making it one of the most expensive buildings of its day in the United States. According to the Official Data's inflation calculator, seven thousand dollars in eighteen thirty six would

be over twenty three million dollars today. In the eighteen seventies, four additional cell box minus the original attached exercise space, were added in between those already constructed, so when Eastern State originally opened, it was designed to hold two hundred fifty prisoners. In eighteen twenty nine, the first prisoners arrived. Two years later, in eighteen thirty one, the first female

prisoners arrived. According to travel writer Quinn Mosby, when the earliest prisoners were brought into the facility, they were examined and given a number. At that point they lost their humanity. The hood was placed over a prisoner's head as guards add them to their cell. They were locked in their cells for the entire day, fed through a slot in the door, and only given a half hour to exercise. The institutional dedication to silence was thorough and complete, at

least in the early years. According to Mosby, the most devastating blow was the sound of silence. Prisoners were not allowed to speak, sing or hum. This was a place of absolute quiet. Some prisoners were gagged with a metal tongue clamp if they did not abide by the code of silence. There was one death from cholera in eighteen

thirty two, and in the nineties many inmates died from tuberculosis. Honestly, the number of deaths that took place there from suffering from chronic and untreated conditions throughout the years is staggering. Along those lines, I'm not sure that it's possible to overstate just how isolated and bleak early life for ESP prisoners truly was. Not only were they hooded during the few moments outside of their cells, but they were required

to be silent for the majority of their days. No mail was allowed in or out, and visiting hours were non existent. Inside their cells, prisoners only saw light from the skylight dubbed the Eye of God talk about a looming presents. Each cell was fitted with feed doors so prisoners could eat their three square meals a day, and total isolation. Guards wore fabric over their shoes so prisoners would not hear their footsteps. The punishments put in place

at ESP were horrifying. There was a water bath. If a prisoner transgressed, they were dunked in icy water before they were hung on a wall overnight. The frigid air would cause skin to ice over before morning, and many prisoners didn't make it through. There was also something called the mad chair in the early years of ESP. Contemporary doctors believed mental illness spread through the body through circulation.

Following their logic, restricting blood flow would theoretically cure the mental anguish, they designed what they called the Mad Chair. It was created so inmates could be strapped in so tightly it was literally impossible to move a muscle. They would be forced to sit in this chair for days without food. Sometimes prisoners limbs were amputated after they were released from the device because the damage was so extensive.

I horror dot Com claims that the Mad chair was also in the pit known as the Whole, an underground cell block beneath Cellblock fourteen, where there was no light and inmates were strapped tightly to a chair, restricting any movement for days, with periods of starvation. Some prisoners, once

removed from the restraints, were permanently crippled. There was a punishment known as the iron gag for this punishment, and inmates hands were tied behind the back and strapped to an iron collar in the mouth so that any movement caused the tongue to tear and bleed profusely. In the earliest days of esp suspicion or rose regarding the treatment of prisoners. Among other charges, the most serious were those

brought against warden Samuel would for cruel and unusual punishment. Specifically, Wood was investigated for the untimely death of inmate Matthias McComsey, who was placed in an iron gag as punishment for talking. Mccomsey's hands were bound behind his back and shackled as the gag was forced to be placed over his tongue, while the iron bar was attached by chains to the

shackles on his wrists. One hour later, maccomsey was found dead in his cell, and though the penitentiaries doctor classified his death as apoplexy or stroke, multiple witnesses contended his death was the result of being placed in the gag. Despite the investigation by police, Wood was not found guilty of cruel and unusual punishment and served as warden there until his retirement. Obviously, with conditions such as these, there

were escaped attempts. In eighteen thirty two, the first prisoner escaped, an inmate who served as the warden's waiter, lowered himself from the roof of the front building once captured. This inmate escaped in the same manner in eighteen thirty seven. In July ninety three, Leo Callaghan and five accomplices armed with pistols, successfully scaled the east wall after holding up

a group of unarmed guards. More than one hundred inmates escaped from Eastern State during its one hundred forty two years of active use, but Callaghan is the only one never to be recaptured. All of Callaghan's accomplices were apprehended, including one that made it as far as Honolulu. In July nineteen thirty four, Williams Spiked Conway and four other inmates escaped ESP by swimming half a mile through the sewer.

Conway and two others were caught within an hour, and the other two got electric chair for murder, while Conway died by suicide. In nineteen forty three, Victor Babe Andreoli escaped from ESP, apparently by hiding in a delivery truck that was leaving the prison. Several weeks later, the police cut up to Andreoli and Chester, Pennsylvania diner, where he was shot dead. In nineteen twelve, prisoners escaped through a tunnel designed and built by prison plaster worker Clarence Kleindist.

The tunnel was ninety seven ft long and probably took over a year to dig. The tunnels and let prisoners out at fair amount and twenty second. At the time, Kleindens had two extra years left on his sentence, but received ten more years once he was caught. Six of the group were captured immediately, with one being shot in the process. Five of them were caught while in the tunnel.

Another five are grabbed while crawling out. After all but one was recovered and returned to ESP they were put in solitary confinement in the hole and given only bread and water and doctor visits each day. They stayed there, one in each space, not collectively, for thirty days at the doctor's judgment. As time went on, Eastern State was evolving. Warden Michael Cassidy added the first additional cellblox in the

eighteen seventies and eighteen nineties. These late Victorian blocks weren't terribly different from the first iteration, but they did not include an attached exercise yard. Prisoners were still hooded for transportation, but they were at least given eye holes. During this period. Instead of exercising in separate spaces, they did so in community, and by the eighteen nineties about half of all prisoners

had to sellmate. By nineteen twelve, a prisoner newspaper, The Umpire, ran a monthly roster of intra penitentiary baseball league scores. The separation of prisoners was eventually amended, and ESP became a more standard prison known then as the New York System, in which inmates shared cells and were permitted to communicate. In January, inmates were finally allowed to eat together. Table cloths were provided on Sundays and holidays, and the holiday

decorations were described as a morale building factor. The this new system, the New York or Auburn system, was one of harsh punishment, and it soon took precedence over the repentant model of ESP. The Auburn model construed incarceration is punishment and terror in order to break the spirit of the recalcitrant individual, close surveillance and corporal punishment would force the prisoner to conform to the desired readiness and installation

of moral values. In nine the penitentiary administration produced a silent movie to celebrate the building's centennial. The film focuses on the recent changes made to the building. It shows new factory style weaving shops, the commercial grade bakery and kitchen staff by dozens of prisoners. Twenty four hours a day,

and new guard towers with searchlights and sirens. And how about some of the more famous prisoners that were in esp A one of a kind prisoner was brought in August of nineteen twenty four, Pep the cat murdering Dog, had his mug shot taken and was assigned prison Nursey two five nine. Pep allegedly murdered the governor's wife's cat. However, the reason for PEPs incarceration remains the subject of some debate. A newspaper article reported that the governor donated his own

dog to the prison to increase inmate morale. In nineteen fifty four, a notorious criminal and perhaps well liked prisoner died. Morris. The Rabbi Bolber was at EESP serving a life sentence as a member of an arsenic murder ring located in Philadelphia called the Veterans Witch doctor and compounder of Charms. Bulber was one of the leaders of the group. They appealed to women who are willing to murder husbands in

order to collect on their husband's insurance policies. Between nineteen twenty nine and nineteen thirty, a Mr Alphonse Campone spent eight months in a relatively luxurious cell. An article in the Philadelphia Public Jer describes Capone's cell. The whole room was suffused in the glow of a desk lamp, which stood on a polished desk. On the once grim walls of the penal chamber hung tasteful paintings, and the strains of a waltz were being omitted by a powerful cabinet

radio receiver of handsome design and fine finish. At this time, Capone was worth over forty million dollars approximately five hundred and fifty million dollars by today's standards, and had associations with over seven hundred murders he could afford to call in a few favors. I think Capone also controlled the sale of liquor to over ten thousand speakeasies. While in his relatively luxurious cell, though al Capone was apparently plagued

by a spirit named Jimmy. He would let out blood curdling streams in the darkness, begging for Jimmy to leave him alone. Many people believe Jimmy may have been the spirit of Jimmy Clark, one of the men killed by Capone's execution orders. In the Saint Valentine's massacre. Even after his release from ESP, Capone was still hounded by this spirit. So out of desperation, Capone even hired a medium, but

that didn't seem to work. Now, some scholars and writers make the connection to late stage syphilis, when the disease affects the brain and can lead to hallucinations and insanity. After his imprisonment, Capone spent his days at home in pajamas and having imaginary conversations with long dead colleagues or enemies in his backyard delusions. The entire family went along with. At age forty eight, Capone died on January seven of a stroke. Unrest and division was rampant at ESP over

the years. In nineteen thirty three, angry inmates set fires to their cells and destroyed workshops in a riot. There was another riot the following year. Due to low wages, inmates short circuited electrical outlets and started fires and caused other disturbances. Warden Smith put down the riot with a wrong show of force. In nineteen sixty one, an inmate trick to guard into opening the cell of another inmate. With the cells opened, the inmates overpowered the guard and

began the largest riot in the prison's history. Several hours later, a large force of police, guards and state troopers reclaimed the prison. The riot fuel discussions to close Eastern State. Other factors contributed to the desire to close ESP. Changing social values and incarceration practices factored in, as did more pragmatic concerns. At that point, the aged building had so many electrical and mechanical problems it was too expensive to restore.

After closing in nineteen seventy one, and before preservation efforts began in nineteen ninety one, Eastern State was left to vandals, nature and stray cats in ESP once again opened its doors, but this time as a museum, so Eastern State Pen only host tourists now and has been designated a National History or Landmark since nineteen sixty five. With all of that, it's no wonder that ESP is thought to be haunted.

It is reputed to be one of the most studied sites in the United States for paranormal activity, and it is the frequent star of TV programming focusing on haunted places. Tourists and employees alike have reported weeping, moaning, and whispering being heard on the cell blocks and visual sites of apparitions are common. Visitors to ESP have reported seeing the

ghost of Joseph Taylor. Taylor bludgend and overseer named Michael Durant to death in four and after the horrific crime, Taylor calmly re entered his cell and went to sleep. The apparition of a mysterious woman is spotted so often that employees have named her the soap Lady. She sits in the last cell on the second floor, wearing white. The second floor held the woman's cell block when the

prison was operational. People have reported seeing visions of ghostly faces in block four, and one of the most legendary tales of Block four comes from Gary Johnson, who helps maintain the crumbling old locks at the prison in the early nineteen nineties. He had just opened an old lock in cell block four when he says a four script him so tightly that he was unable to move. He described a negative, horrible energy that exploded out of the cell.

He said tormented faces appeared on the cell walls and that one form in particular beckoned to him. Guests claim to get a glimpse of a man standing in a guard tower on the property. However, there's no way to physically get to the top of the tower today. The brickstairs crumbled away many years ago. Those stories just scratched

the surface of what happens that he has paid. So, I have a friend here, Mr. Aaron Sager's who is a paranormal researcher and has worked closely with Eastern State Penitentiary for years, and he's going to give us some insight on common reports and what people think is really going on inside those haunted, crumbling cell blocks. Aaron singers everyone, He said, this is exciting. You know. Actually, every time I think of Eastern State Penitentiary, I think of you

because I feel like you're there all the time. Why is that Eastern State Penitentiary is my spooky home away from home. I have spent a lot of time there, and they have brought me out many times to talk about the history but also the paranormal tales that have emerged from there. But on a personal level, it was sort of ground zero for me entering the paranormal. On a professional level, I had an experience there. I have

always been fascinated by the paranormal. I've always been drawn in by high strangeness, but it was really Eastern State that I had an experience that was a bit of a paradigm shift and sent me on a path. Well, tell us what that was, Okay, I guess, I will. I guess. That's sort of the point of kind of intro you need to tell us. Well, I was there as a journalist. That's that's my origin story. My career is as a journalist, and I still work in that world.

And I wasn't there looking for ghosts. I was there exploring the penitentiary. I was there alone, and I was walking down. As Amy mentioned, cell block four has quite the notorious reputation. And I was walking down this cell block, and it was at night, and you know that moment where you don't know why you look into a certain room or why you are drawn to a certain spot.

I don't know what made me stop in front of this one particular cell block, but I look in and at the back of this cell I see what we call a shadow figure, and it was very clear. I could clearly see this distinct form and it was pacing back and fourth, back and fourth in the far back part of this cell. Now, I can't enter this cell because there is a bar that prevents you from going in there. But as I'm watching this figure go back and forth, paced back and forth, I have this moment

of I guess I'm gonna talk to it. And I think a lot of people that have had experiences they have this moment of like, I'm really just talking to myself, I'm crazy or whatever. Book I'm gonna do it. And that's what I had. I said, Okay, if something's back there, come closer, pacing back and forth, back and for back and stop, and this form rushes me. My entire field

of vision goes entirely black. It's gone. And I leaped back and release if you choice expletives, and I pause and again I see this thing has now retreated to the far back of the cell and has continued pacing back and fourth. And this is this is this moment where I'm like, I think I just saw a ghost, and yet I didn't say anything. I kind of kept it to myself, and time passes and someone else is in this area and I happened to be in the

area at the same time. They're like, it looks like there's something pacing back and forth in the back of that cell and this was this independent confirmation that they didn't know about, and to me, that validated the experience. And then time goes on and I start doing events there, paranormal events. I joined you, Amy, I joined a lot of our our friends and colleagues. And I don't tell people always this story. Although it's ruined now that we're

doing this podcast. Everyone knows it, but I don't always reveal that story, but I always wait until someone kind of picks up on it, and they typically do. And I would say Cell Block four is really one of those locations that has a feeling to it, but it's also special for me and and honestly, all throughout Eastern State, I've had so many it seems like every time I go there, something weird happens and it's something different. Yeah,

I mean I have not been there. The last time I was there, I was quite pregnant, so it's been a long time. But only I would go hunting in the old jail while I'm pregnant. But you know, do you recall that you and I had an experience there? Okay, So I had so many experience I knew as you were telling your story, I feel like you and I

saw some sort of shadow or something. I remember distinctly using the laser grid there for the first time, like that was one of the first places that I For those that don't know, the laser grid is basically just this little pen that shoots out a grid of lasers, so a laser grid, and it makes it easier to see shadow figures in theory. And so I don't know if this was the experience, but I remember shiny. It might have been cellblock for I'm always familiar with all

the cellblocks it's been so long. They all look very spooky and very similar when you get in there. But I remember shining it down into a lower level and watching a shadow walk in and out of the laser grid from above. So that was what I remember being a pretty wild experience there. This was I leave Cell Block twelve or it was that part of the penitentiary,

and there was that moment. But the thing that was even weirder for me is we were yes pointing this laser gride down because there are certain levels due to the the structure, it's it's unsafe in places. We were pointing down in a lower level that we could not access. So there was this shadow form. But beyond that there was this missed does not even encapsulate. I remember this, Yes, it almost had a tangibility and it was in a cell like it was. I remember thinking because I was

like is this dust? Like what is it? And I remember distinctly, Okay, now I remember, I just wasn't sure if that was you that I was. It was thick and amorphous, and the light the laser instead of you know, I've I've been too many a laser light shows. It was a fan of Pink Floyd at the observatory in or Lande I grew up. It doesn't it doesn't look like miss that's going or a light laser like that's going through miss. Instead, it almost absorbed. Yes, it enveloped it.

It's the same thing that happens with the shadow figures when it hits a shadow figure, like a legit shadow figure. If if you walk in front of a laser grid, it just looks like you have a laser on you, But when it hits like a shadow or something, it just disappears. It's very weird, Like I mean, I don't I have no explanation for it. There's something about that location. I think part of it. Honestly, we have been to a lot of jails, asylums, hospitals, you know, all cheery places.

There's something about Eastern State. I think the fact that it was left to just sit and be overtaken for twenty years, I think it created something of a paranormal crop bid, like a stew a gumbo was like just just kind of percolating in there where it was almost like the activity was left to kind of build up. Yeah,

it's I find Eastern State to be incredibly beautiful. They it was the first place that I heard the term arrested decay, which meaning that they basically they don't restore it any further and they don't let it deteriorate any further. And so it's just they're like they clean out certain areas and and try to kind of, you know, build them back up so we can safely visit them. But there are places you go that have just been completely overtaken by nature, and I don't know what that does

to the energy there. And I honestly, until I did this podcast and was doing all the research for it, I guess I did not understand the conditions that were in that building. I thought of it as kind of a traditional prison, whatever that may be. But I had no idea that the whole basis of silence, which sounds like the creepiest, weirdest punishment to me, that they were

made to be silent at all times. Yes, and the violence that the locations are the goo stories began in nineteen not began, but there are documented reports of ghost stories at the Eastern State in nineteen and the nineteen forties,

early nineties, and the there was such violence there. There were riots, there was, but there was also for instance, there was one doctor that worked there that was said to be carrying just basically a bucket of body parts throughout the halls because he was given free reign to conducts unauthorized autopsies. There was one young woman that came to collect the body of her father who had died, and they said, oh, he's not ready yet. Well, okay,

he's dead. Why isn't he ready. When she does finally retrieve this body, he has an autopsy scar around the crown of his head, and basically this doctor just plucked out the brain and did what he will with it. And there's a lot of tales of that, and people

that were obviously suffering from mental illness. At that time, it wasn't really talked about, but there was one inmate who was incredibly emaciated and couldn't stand up and was in his cell, And at one point a judge became involved because there were investigations into the treatment there, and the judges like, well, why is this guy like this? And I believe one of the guard's response was is just like everyone else, he just really wants attention. This

total dismissal of some of these things. And now since it has been a while since you've been there, what they do is they do document the prison system and the experience of not just Eastern State, but the prison

system correctional system throughout the world. But one of the things that they do is because this this prison closed down in the seventies, there are a lot of inmates that are alive and they have collected audio, they have shown videos, and so all day long, while this prison is operating as a landmark that you can tour, you are hearing the voices and the accounts of all of this history. It's like having a basically a trigger object

just going constantly, wow, that's so interesting. What I left about the folks there is that they're very open about their ghosts. They're very open about their hauntings. They're obviously very open about their history. It's it is the kind of epitome of turning a bad situation into something positive. Like they do do so much with their nonprofit and everything. But having been there lately, like, how how are the haunts going, Like is it any more active any less?

Or yes? I think that much like the rest of the world, you know, following will still enduring this pandemic. It has altered some things there, And I have spoken to people at Eastern State that's say it's almost like the ghosts are hungry for the attention and that they want that acknowledgement and and for a place that saw

such suffering. If there are, if there are presences there that continue to linger, I think maybe people coming and visiting a place that does frankly discussed the history, maybe if something is lingering there, it sees these tourists, it sees the museum component as a way of having their

story told. Yeah, I mean I've always felt like so whenever we investigate prisons, I'm always adamant that we don't go in with judgment I think it's really easy for people to assume that everyone they're talking to in a in a jail was a bad person in some way.

But you know, I always say, with whole judgment, you don't know their story, especially if place like Eastern State being an operation for so long, you have no idea how or why they ended up there, And so I think that that understanding is really important as you investigate there. So have you you investigated there a lot? Do you think that's the way to go about it? Do you think they respond to that kind of communication or I think that will consider that. I think the youngest inmate

there was an eleven year old girl. So you cannot look at that and say, oh, that was a bad person. You know. Yes, first off, I think if if you're going to enter any location, yes, you should think about if there are people lingering in a different form there, they were people, they were they so treat them with respect. So yes, I do say, go about things with a respectful outlook and ask questions. You know, how did you pass the time? What were your hobbies in this while

you were stuck here? Or what did you learn during your time here? I think those are all good and I also I do wonder for some of the people that did commit horrible acts that were legitimately sentenced there, maybe they're going through their own process in the afterlife where they are processing their own guilt, their own regrets, their own grief. Maybe they are also going through something

that they have to get through while they are there still. Yeah, and I mean I've wondered that because you have that kind of classic unfinished business, which is why I think a lot of spirits linger, and in a place like that, I could see this kind of self imposed sentence happening where people feel like they don't deserve to move on

from there. I mean I'm completely speculating, of course, but just having investigated many prisons, I've just I've I've felt that in a way and gotten evidence to indicate that.

I think there's so many potentials there. But yeah, I agree, And I almost wonder if, of course, we talked about things like reincarnation and that is a way of like processing through your cast deeds as you move on, Well, what if there's this other aspect where maybe these ghosts which is a very simplistic word, but maybe maybe they're afterlife, is this prolonged therapy session where they're having to go through everything before they feel like they can let go

or move on or whatever it is that they do. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, so now Eastern State is open again for tours, right, it is okay, and so people can go there, they can visit. Are they doing investigations at all that you know of or I don't know if they've begun the investigations yet because I have to imagine that involves a lot of protocols and what safety protocols. But if they are and if they begin again, I'm ready to be back in line to do it again. I love the place.

I find it hunting, I find it beautiful, and I definitely think for any paranormal investigator out there, anyone that wants to pursue it is a great location to go to. That is awesome. Well, thank you Mr Sagers for joining me on our first ever live episode of Haunted Road and everyone here. I really appreciate you taking the time and for everybody listening. You can join us at places like this. This is Strange Escapes, my company. You can

check it out at Strange dash escapes dot com. Kindred Spirits from years December on Discovery Plus and Travel Channel and anything else you want to shout out. Mr Sagers. Yeah, well, Amy, thank you so much for having me here at the Mount Washington and on the live show. It is an honor. And for anyone that wants to follow my work, you can see me on Paranormal Call on Camera on Travel

Channel and Discovery Plus. You can see me on the Ripley's Believe It or Not Ripley's Road Trip YouTube series that's more of an oddity show rather than a paranormal one. And you can also just say hi to me across social media at Aaron Sagers or if you see me in person, don't make it weird, but come up and say hi in person. Well you guys, I hope you enjoyed this deep dive into Eastern State. To me, it's

just a fascinating bit of history. I had no idea actually what went on within those walls, and strangely now I'm feeling very drawn to getting back there, so I can't wait to visit again. Thank you so much everyone, I appreciate it. I'm Amy Bruney and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Amy Bruney. Executive producers include Aaron Manky,

Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. The show is produced by rema Ill Kali and Trevor Young. Taylor Haggerdorn is the show's researcher. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.