Haunt Weekly - Episode 454 - Aphantasia in Haunting Redux

Speaker1:
[0:00] Greetings everyone, Jonathan here. Sorry about the Redux episode this week, but it is for a positive reason, and that is, well, it's my birthday weekend. I am turning 44 on August 13th, so we've been taking a little time away, trying to enjoy the weekend a little more, and just generally keeping it pretty chill. So yeah, we're not releasing a new episode this week. However, I do get to pick which episode we're doing as the Redux, and we're going all the way back to episode 113. And this is a very special episode for me for several reasons. The first of which, it includes Chrysalis and Mine's girlfriend, Ellie. And the second, it is where we talk about Aphantasia and how it may or may not impact haunting. And this is a really interesting one because when we recorded this episode, and it's well over four years old now, we had just learned what Aphantasia is. And we were deep, deep in the weeds researching. All three of us were. her. Ellie had no idea that she had something that most people don't have. She didn't realize the way she viewed the world, or rather didn't view the world, was somewhat unusual.

Speaker1:
[1:04] So anyways, we get to talking about how aphantasia, a condition where you can't form pictures in your mind, and how it can impact haunting and make some scares more effective and some scares less effective.

Speaker1:
[1:16] It's an interesting one, and it's been a long damn time since we talked to it. We need to get her back on and do an update to this so maybe that'll be forthcoming but anyways enjoy the episode and we'll see you next week welcome to hot weekly

Music:
[1:30] Music

Speaker1:
[1:46] Hello, everyone. I'm Jonathan.

Speaker0:
[1:48] I'm Crystal.

Speaker1:
[1:49] And this is Haunt Weekly, a weekly podcast for the haunted attraction and haunted entertainment industry.

Speaker1:
[1:54] Whether you're an actor, owner, or just plain aficionado, we aim to be a podcast for you. And we're bringing something very special this week. It has been one of the hot topics around our house the past few months.

Speaker0:
[2:07] It has.

Speaker1:
[2:07] The source of countless barbs and jokes and endless teasing, both directions, I might add. Yes. But basically, we're going to be covering the subject of Aphantasia and to help us, Aphantasia and Haunting, and we're going to explain what Aphantasia is, so you don't have to go scrambling to Google yet.

Speaker0:
[2:28] Right.

Speaker1:
[2:29] Take your time. We're going to get you there.

Speaker0:
[2:31] We'll also include a couple of links to articles and the show notes. Yes, we will. You will be able to get those. And where might someone find these show notes?

Speaker1:
[2:41] Well, the show notes themselves will be at HauntWeekly.com. You can also find us at Haunt Weekly on Twitter, Haunt Weekly at Facebook. And tinyurl.com slash Haunt Weekly whisks you away magically through the power of 301 redirects to our YouTube channel, where you'll find the entire back catalog of episodes, and you may peruse them at your leisure, and view, and I'm doing the air quotes, that for hours and hours on end.

Speaker0:
[3:07] Yes.

Speaker1:
[3:09] Feel free, please.

Speaker0:
[3:10] About 113 hours.

Speaker1:
[3:12] Yeah, roughly.

Speaker0:
[3:13] Just about.

Speaker1:
[3:13] Just a little bit under, yeah. But anyways, as I said, we have a very special guest this week, someone we've mentioned on this podcast a few times. Yes. Our girlfriend, our partner, our hot mom. Yeah. And multiple other roles in our lives, Ellie. Hello. who will be joining us in a little bit to talk about this horrible, crippling disorder she lives with called Aphantasia.

Speaker2:
[3:38] Yes, I don't hallucinate constantly.

Speaker1:
[3:43] It's going to be one of those episodes, folks. Buckle up. But yes, this is going to be a fun one. But first, real quick, even though we don't always do this with interviews, we're going to quickly blow through the conference reminders so we can get to more Ellie. Basically, we have enough Ellie in our day so we can do the content. All right. Is it my turn to kick off or yours?

Speaker0:
[4:02] I think it's mine. Okay, go for it. I'm the oddball. So, March 1st through the 3rd, it's the Mays Chicago Corn Party at the Chicago Marriott Southwest and Burr Ridge. Tours of nine different farm attractions, including Fair Oaks Farm, Gobert's, Culper's Family Farm, and Gentleman's Orchard. You can find out more about that at themays.com, M-A-I-Z-E.

Speaker1:
[4:28] After that, it's the Big Daddy of the Industry Transworld Halloween and Attraction Show in St. Louis, Missouri, March 22nd through the 25th at the America Center. There will be a pre-convention bus tour visiting Nashville Nightmare in Talon Falls, and there will be a Voodoo Soiree on Saturday night. Learn more at the Haas Show. That's H-A-A-S-H-O-W dot com.

Speaker0:
[4:51] Then it's West Coast Haunters Convention, April 13th through the 15th in Portland, Oregon, at the Double Tree Hotel Portland. I would hope it'd be in Portland. Touring Milburn's Haunted Manor. Also includes a costume ball, a silent auction, and the Nightmare After West Coast Haunters Convention Film Festival with those films still secretive. They're not letting you know yet, but if they do, you can find that out at HauntersConvention.com.

Speaker1:
[5:17] All right. It's my time to shine, baby. I got this. Okay, after that, Halloween Show and National Haunter's Convention presents Halloween Boardwalk Empire in Atlantic City, New Jersey, May 18th through the 20th at the Showboat Convention Center will feature a zombie volleyball, a hearse show, a Mardi Gras-themed costume ball, and much more. By the way, guys, you still have Mardi Gras misspelled on the site if you are listening to this. Learn more at HalloweenShow.com.

Speaker0:
[5:45] You know, maybe we should just write them and tell them.

Speaker1:
[5:47] Yeah, this may not be the most efficient way to communicate that information.

Speaker0:
[5:51] Maybe not. Okay. And then one that a lot of our friends are looking forward to, Midwest Haunter's Convention, May 25th through the 27th in Columbus, Ohio, at the Greater Columbus Convention Center, featuring a masquerade party, a zombie walk, and a pre-convention bus tour with haunts to be announced. You can find out what those are at MidwestHauntersConvention.com.

Speaker1:
[6:11] And last for this run, it's Premier Haunted Attractions Tour and Education Series in Ulster Park, New York, June 22nd through 23rd at the Super 8 Kingston, not the regular 8, the Super 8 Kingston, touring the Headless Horseman and all seven of its attractions. I believe we had that on our Haunt Bucket List. Yeah. I am so excited about this full itinerary TBA premiere haunt tour, 2Ts.com. And that brings us up to speed on our upcoming conferences. Now, what the hell is aphantasia? I hear a lot of you wondering and hanging, biding your time, curious. So, I'm going to be honest. This is something we learned about a few months ago. And that was apparently discovered in 1880.

Speaker0:
[6:58] Yes.

Speaker1:
[7:00] Blew my mind to learn that.

Speaker2:
[7:02] Yes, nobody told me.

Speaker1:
[7:03] Nobody told her. But yes, we learned, and this is really freaky odds, because we're going to discuss in a minute, about 2% of people are afflicted with this horrible, horrible ailment.

Speaker2:
[7:15] Yes, where we don't constantly visualize stuff that's not there.

Speaker1:
[7:19] Yes. But we actually have two people in our pretty close inner circle that have it.

Speaker0:
[7:25] Right.

Speaker1:
[7:25] And not a super large inner circle. No.

Speaker2:
[7:28] And too attached to the haunt.

Speaker1:
[7:29] Yeah, to attach to our haunt, too, exactly, that actually have this. And basically, it's 50% of the knitting and crafting group. It's pretty impressive, I've got to admit. But long story short, this whole conversation has really changed how we think about what goes on in other people's heads. We've always assumed, Crystal and I, that other people visualize the world we do.

Speaker0:
[7:52] Right.

Speaker1:
[7:52] That's not true. And A Fantasia is an excellent example of why it's different. And the goal of this, by the way, is to hopefully start a conversation with A Fantasia in general, but also specifically how it impacts haunting and the haunt community. Because people with A Fantasia tend to be pretty crafty and pretty creative.

Speaker0:
[8:12] Right.

Speaker1:
[8:13] But they're very differently creative. And as we'll get into a little bit later, they can be difficult to bring in on a project because it can be hard to share a vision when one of you ain't got a vision. I know.

Speaker2:
[8:22] Just show me what you're talking about.

Speaker1:
[8:24] Exactly.

Speaker0:
[8:25] Yeah.

Speaker1:
[8:26] So, what is a Fantasia? I'm going to put you through a quick test to see if you perhaps have it. This is an excellent format to do it in, by the way. Audio only. I can actually do this. I want you to close your eyes for me. And I want you to picture a house along a long country road. It's deep set into the woods. There's trees. There's a beautiful sky. What color is the house? Now, it doesn't really matter what color you said. if you had a color and a mental image in your head that came with the color could be a log cabin for all we care you are not a you do not have a fantasia Basically, because aphantasia is the inability to see images in your mind. Now, what I'm going to do in the show notes is I'm going to link to a BBC article, which covers it pretty thoroughly. And that article also has a more thorough test to let you see if you have it. Also, it basically shows that there is a spectrum between aphantasia and hyperphantasia, show, which is what Crystal and I both scored on that relatively unscientific, but still a helpful test.

Speaker0:
[9:32] Yes.

Speaker2:
[9:33] And that article, are you going to share that article that you shared with me earlier? The blank guy, the Facebook.

Speaker0:
[9:38] The Facebook one? I don't, I guess we are now. There you go. There you go.

Speaker2:
[9:44] Well, I ask it because there's a great discussion down there. And as I was sitting there reading it, I was like, oh yeah, this is me. And this is me. Oh yeah. And that too.

Speaker0:
[9:53] Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker1:
[9:54] So if you do have aphantasia, that would be a great link to read and relate to.

Speaker0:
[9:58] Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because we were talking about the spectrum before we came in here. And it seems like everyone on the extreme edges of the spectrum are creative, that we know.

Speaker1:
[10:11] Yeah.

Speaker2:
[10:12] Yes, I have to make things because I can't see them in my head. And if I wanted to make anything ever at all, I have to physically make a thing. Right.

Speaker0:
[10:20] Yes. And I make things in my head that are just too awesome not to make in real life.

Speaker1:
[10:25] And basically the way the spectrum works is if you cannot pull images out of your head at all,

Speaker0:
[10:32] You have aphantasia.

Speaker1:
[10:34] If you're constantly deluged with super realistic photograph quality images, you are hyperphantasia. And I guess normal people are somewhere

Speaker0:
[10:46] In the middle. And I would be curious to.

Speaker1:
[10:49] Hear from them.

Speaker0:
[10:50] Yeah, I hear from them and see how it affects their creativity.

Speaker1:
[10:55] Are you not seeing it? Are you, like, getting it on 480p? I'm just asking. I'm curious how this works.

Speaker0:
[11:00] It's 8-bit.

Speaker1:
[11:01] It's like Super Mario going across their mind.

Speaker0:
[11:04] God.

Speaker1:
[11:05] But, I mean, so, yes, this whole idea was very, very interesting to us. And the realization that not everybody thinks the way we do.

Speaker0:
[11:14] Yeah. Well, and, you know, that's a whole different conversation about how people think and how, you know, we all have our own perception of reality and nobody really sees or experiences things the same way.

Speaker1:
[11:29] Yeah, very, very true. But, you know, obviously the focus of this podcast is haunted attractions. Right. And how it impacts both customers and haunters. Because I suspect we're going to find that the haunt community, because of the nature of people in the Aphantasia to be creative and to be, you know, involved in these craftsy type things, that we're going to find that more than 2% of haunters basically have it. You know, there's going to be a tendency here. Right. So it's a worthwhile conversation. And I wanted to start, and Ellie, every year with us, goes to a slew of haunted houses. We basically drag her kicking and screaming violently to haunted attractions. She is our non-haunter eyes and ears at these things. Yeah. And now we know she's broken and we can't...

Speaker2:
[12:19] Yes, and I'm not kicking and screaming because I don't like haunts or because they scare me. Mostly, I guess, it's because I don't get it. as literally as it's happening i i get the thing but

Speaker1:
[12:35] Yeah yes well i think the most obvious way it's going to impact a customer is how they remember the haunt right

Speaker2:
[12:43] Oh yeah no i don't yeah

Speaker1:
[12:45] Because when crystal and i go through home then we do like the haunt reviews or talk about it later we're bringing up images in our mind remembering rooms remembering exact scares Specific details,

Speaker0:
[12:58] Touches, smells.

Speaker1:
[13:00] Exactly. When we talk about the freaks of fear, I still visually remember the bird that swooped down on us.

Speaker0:
[13:06] Right.

Speaker1:
[13:07] And started with us. That's not what you see, is it?

Speaker2:
[13:10] Oh, no. Not at all. I did not go to that one, though, right? No, no, no. Okay, good. Because I don't have that in my list of things.

Speaker1:
[13:17] That was an Atlanta one. It's just one of the most vivid images I could bring up at that exact moment.

Speaker0:
[13:21] Yeah. For you, anything from 13th Gate.

Speaker1:
[13:25] How do you remember the 13th?

Speaker2:
[13:27] The 13th, that's one of Baton Rouge? Yes. Okay. So there's the whole little vignette with the places from England.

Speaker0:
[13:36] Yes.

Speaker2:
[13:36] And then there's random, random, random, random, random. And then there's the room from The Evil Dead. And then there's random, random, random, random. And then there's a cold thing.

Speaker1:
[13:51] Yeah, the Woolly Mammoth Cave, yes. Okay, yeah.

Speaker2:
[13:53] There's a cold thing. and then there's a bridge thing with maybe some pumpkins and maybe not some pumpkins it depends on the year and then there's a truck or two that tries to scare us But they can't hit us, so there's no reason to be afraid. And then maybe there's a chainsaw guy on the way out. Maybe there's not. I don't know. And then we leave.

Speaker1:
[14:15] No, there's not a chainsaw guy on the way out.

Speaker0:
[14:16] Yeah, there's not a chainsaw guy.

Speaker2:
[14:17] Oh, it's just the trucks hit that one. Yes. Yes.

Speaker1:
[14:20] But basically, the way you've explained it to us, and I think the way it's easy for people to understand it, in your day job, you are a database programmer, database developer. Yes.

Speaker2:
[14:31] Also my night job.

Speaker1:
[14:32] Also your night job. That's true.

Speaker2:
[14:34] My weekend job, my all the jobs.

Speaker1:
[14:36] Your all the jobs. Your never-ending job. So you have described what you just did to us as like a database. Like you have text information.

Speaker2:
[14:47] Like I have a spreadsheet in my head, except not a spreadsheet I can read, just a spreadsheet I can know psychically. Yeah.

Speaker0:
[14:55] Basically bullet points for the important information that goes with a topic. Yep.

Speaker2:
[15:00] And all those bullet points are there.

Speaker1:
[15:02] So going back to 13th Gate, you had like 13th Gate, bullet point underneath, England scene, bullet point underneath that.

Speaker0:
[15:11] Well, first it was Baton Rouge.

Speaker1:
[15:12] No, Baton Rouge is true.

Speaker2:
[15:13] Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's the one with the elevator thing, too. Yeah, the elevators.

Speaker0:
[15:18] Yes.

Speaker2:
[15:19] Yes. So elevator and then maybe some stuff and then the England scene is near the beginning.

Speaker0:
[15:24] Yeah.

Speaker1:
[15:24] So how do you remember and make the determination what are your favorite haunts?

Speaker2:
[15:33] I guess the ones that I bother to store that kind of information about. Because if I don't bother to remember the data about them, the information, the metadata about the haunt, then it obviously did not make an impression on me. But none of the haunts really... scare, scare me. Not the way I see other people that aren't in our group being scared.

Speaker1:
[16:02] Like, um, or Therese.

Speaker2:
[16:04] Yes. Yeah.

Speaker1:
[16:05] But no, okay, so like Lafitte. You have that Oh,

Speaker2:
[16:09] They're adorable.

Speaker1:
[16:11] That is your metadata for Lafitte?

Speaker2:
[16:14] Yeah, yes, that is yeah, that's my little hashtag you know, Lafitte, that's the adorable haunt. Yes. And then if I want to start thinking about what it is, everything is adorable except for that silly maze. at the end, which I swear they try to make extra bad for us because they love y'all so much.

Speaker1:
[16:33] And because I've constantly ragged on it. Yes. In reviews. But yeah, okay, so when, and recalling, and like if you were to talk to someone else about a haunt and say what haunt they should go to, you know, you're not going to be able, really, to describe scenes from it, per se. Not really. You can pull the metadata from it. You can say what is physically there.

Speaker2:
[16:56] Yeah. But I definitely can't say how scary it would be, because one of the things that we've discussed away from here is that I don't have the, oh, I should be scared of the thing because of who knows what's where. No, what is there is what's there, and everything that's not there is not there. I don't have any imaginary friends there waiting in my...

Speaker1:
[17:20] And that's because it impacts your expectations.

Speaker2:
[17:23] Yeah, I don't have expectations. Yeah.

Speaker1:
[17:25] When you see, okay, let's play a scene in a haunt. Hallway. Yeah, you're going down a hallway. You literally see just the hallway. Yes. Or someone who's, or at least less aphantasic, I guess. Yeah. Because like I said, there's a spectrum technically. It's not a pass-fail test necessarily. But someone who's less aphantasic would at least visualize it as a hallway with walls and...

Speaker2:
[17:50] Well, there's walls in the hallway.

Speaker1:
[17:51] But you know what I mean, like, solidness. Yeah. And that makes it so that when somebody, when all of a sudden there's a hole there, and you realize the hallway is a fake, the wall is not. real it's a little more disturbing it basically what i'm saying is when we enter a hallway and of course it's a little different for us because we're haunters and right we've been through this but a norm a quote-unquote normal person yeah looks in it they see a hallway they have expectations about what a hallway is yes and that expectation does not include drop panels or hands reaching in the room or whatever oh

Speaker2:
[18:27] Yeah no I I'm sometimes surprised by well-hidden drop panels right yeah but not scared because of them because one I know that haunts have an active role in them they don't have actual ghosts or monsters in them right because ghosts and

Speaker1:
[18:45] Monsters have the mortuary okay yeah

Speaker2:
[18:48] Okay yeah so maybe some of the haunts have ghosts and monsters but it's I'm walking down oh oh, the thing that looked like a wall is actually a door. Not a surprise because sometimes things that look like doors are not doors as you get more information.

Speaker0:
[19:06] Right.

Speaker1:
[19:07] And we really got a lot of this conversation. We go back to the podcast, we did on Layers of Fear. She tried to play Layers of Fear. And the game that really messed with Crystal and I just totally washed over Ellie. And one of the reasons was because there's, like, once again, people who are less aphantasia make mental maps.

Speaker0:
[19:31] Right.

Speaker1:
[19:32] When we're going, even if it's like a very background process. Yeah. And we don't even realize we're doing it. We're drawing a map of where we've been and where we're likely going. We're figuring out how it all fits together.

Speaker0:
[19:42] Right.

Speaker1:
[19:44] You do not visualize maps.

Speaker2:
[19:46] No. No. I don't visualize anything.

Speaker1:
[19:49] And so in Layers of Fear, when you make the three right turns and come back and you're in a totally different place...

Speaker2:
[19:55] Then the right turns must not have been what the rules say that the right turns should have been. So I'm not expecting to be in the same place because I'm just expecting to be wherever it is that I am.

Speaker0:
[20:09] Yes. It's like, oh, look.

Speaker2:
[20:10] I am at this place now.

Speaker1:
[20:12] And the same thing happens to you in Hans, right? Oh, yeah.

Speaker2:
[20:15] Yeah, I don't get lost in the blackout mazes. I just don't get out of the blackout. It's like, Oh, I'm not out yet. I'm not out yet. It's not that I'm sad or surprised that I'm not out yet. I'm just maybe annoyed that I'm not out yet.

Speaker0:
[20:29] Right.

Speaker2:
[20:30] Yeah. That blackout mazes annoy me.

Speaker0:
[20:33] Does that mean that you can't remember which ones you've been down, which hallways?

Speaker2:
[20:37] Oh yeah. No.

Speaker0:
[20:39] Okay. So you can...

Speaker2:
[20:41] You don't put me in the front of the line. I don't know why I get put at the front of the line.

Speaker1:
[20:45] You don't get put at the front of the line. You just end up there.

Speaker0:
[20:48] So you have gotten put at the front of the line, but we only learned about this after season. So, you know...

Speaker1:
[20:54] Now we know not to do that.

Speaker0:
[20:55] Yes.

Speaker2:
[20:56] I'm useless at the front of the line. Okay. We did this one last time. We did that one last time. Fuck it. Not that. I don't know which one I did last time.

Speaker0:
[21:07] All right. Now, this week's episode, Explicit Morning, comes from Ellie.

Speaker1:
[21:12] I'm sorry.

Speaker2:
[21:13] I tried. Oh, well.

Speaker0:
[21:15] It's okay.

Speaker1:
[21:16] There's a reason we have. It's because I hate editing. Well, it comes down to it. Not because we're the disgusting podcast with all these Roman orgies. It's because I don't feel like editing out every F-bomb. But, yeah. So, basically, what you're saying, though, is in the Blackout Mazes, which I'm not a big fan of in general. You could pretty much goldfish your way up and down the same hallway.

Speaker2:
[21:41] Yeah, I'm sure I have.

Speaker0:
[21:44] Yes, I'm sure you have, too.

Speaker2:
[21:47] Probably with y'all following along behind me.

Speaker1:
[21:49] Just tearfully glaring. And meanwhile, the adder's going, what the hell?

Speaker0:
[21:54] Well, yeah, because back to Layers of Fear, there's the room that actually changes behind you. You don't even walk out of it. You just turn around. Yeah.

Speaker2:
[22:03] Oh, look, the room's changed.

Speaker0:
[22:05] Yeah.

Speaker2:
[22:05] It is now different than it was. Yeah. Not bothered by it at all because this is just a new set of facts.

Speaker1:
[22:12] And that's just it. And that's what I find so interesting is because when you have that visual image of things in your head, that creates an expectation which can then be defied. Yes. When all you have is metadata, that expectation is at least lessened.

Speaker2:
[22:28] Well, I know that it's unclear. I know that everything is going to be incomplete. And I assume that y'all, that expectation thing that y'all are talking about is when you're making up information that you don't know.

Speaker0:
[22:43] Huh. You're making things up. Sometimes it is, because if we're visualizing something...

Speaker2:
[22:50] If you're walking down a hallway...

Speaker0:
[22:53] Okay.

Speaker2:
[22:53] And you're surprised that the hallway is not just walls, like not solid walls, then you've made up the fact that the hallway is supposed to be solid walls.

Speaker0:
[23:01] I think that that goes back to expectations of people who aren't used to haunts, thinking that solid walls are solid.

Speaker2:
[23:08] But why would you think that if you haven't gone past it yet? You don't know what it is until you've experienced it.

Speaker1:
[23:14] Well, like with layers of fear, though, we've seen what the backside of the room looks. Right. So we process that, we remember it, and then when we turn it around in 360 and it's changed, that's not simply us extrapolating information we don't know. That is information we knew that

Speaker2:
[23:30] It's been changed. Yeah, information you knew. Not information that you know, information that you knew. Time changes things.

Speaker0:
[23:38] This is going to get real bad. Not that fast, really.

Speaker2:
[23:41] Yes, you used to have stuff on your face, Jonathan. Oh, come on.

Speaker1:
[23:45] Here we go again, folks, about the goatee. The goatee years.

Speaker2:
[23:48] And currently you don't have stuff on your face. But someday you might have stuff on your face. That doesn't make you a flesh Jonathan.

Speaker0:
[23:55] So according to this, the outside of that door could be anything. Because we're in a room.

Speaker1:
[24:00] We're sitting in the Haunt Weekly Towers, the recording studio at Haunt Weekly Towers.

Speaker2:
[24:06] Well, sure. It could be anything. it's likely not anything because I'm not insane I don't like imagine things that aren't there so you

Speaker1:
[24:15] See everything as like Schrodinger's cat

Speaker2:
[24:17] Yes it

Speaker1:
[24:19] Both is and is not what it's supposed to be on the other side of that door at all

Speaker2:
[24:22] Times yes now rationally I know that it's likely to be the house that you want

Speaker1:
[24:28] To see my office and the bathroom and so on and so forth

Speaker2:
[24:31] And were the lights out I would be able to navigate it probably as well as y'all but the navigation would be based on, you know, metadata rather than a picture. And if it changed, then it's like, oh, now that data's changed, I would need the lights on to change my picture. I would just need the lights off to change my metadata.

Speaker1:
[24:57] So when you think about getting up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, you realize, okay, the bathroom is a few steps this way, through the door, straight across the hall, and into the bathroom.

Speaker2:
[25:08] Yes.

Speaker0:
[25:09] Now, what if there's a pair of shoes put in the way?

Speaker2:
[25:12] If there's a pair of shoes put in the way, then on my way back, I remember that there's a pair of shoes put in the way. Yeah. But I don't see them or imagine where they're at. So if I got spun around as long as I went back into the right room, I would still be able to find it. Yeah. Because I wouldn't be disoriented. And I think that's part of it, is that I'm both all the time disoriented and less likely to be disoriented once I know where I'm at.

Speaker1:
[25:40] And that seems to be the theme from talking with you about haunting, is that since you are less certain of everything, the uncertainty which haunts and haunts scares attempt to throw at you are less impactful.

Speaker2:
[25:55] Yes. Is that about right? Definitely. Jump scares don't often get me. One of the few that I remember is Necropolis with the guy up above. Because that was the first time there was a guy up above with no things to hold the guy up above to make sure he didn't fall. And I did not know that he was this magical parkour dancer guy.

Speaker1:
[26:21] The ballet guy. Oh, God. Yes, the ballet guy.

Speaker2:
[26:24] Once I learned that he was the ballet guy, then he was no longer scary to me.

Speaker1:
[26:29] How does that do that knees?

Speaker2:
[26:30] I don't know. I don't even know. But I knew that he wasn't going to fall on me anymore. No. If he was like my level of physical activity.

Speaker1:
[26:39] If he was any of our level, it would be one time, and we're like this.

Speaker2:
[26:46] Exactly. Exactly. Splat.

Speaker1:
[26:50] Followed by an ambulance. Yes.

Speaker0:
[26:52] Now, if you saw us actually falling, you're not a Phantasic.

Speaker1:
[26:58] Specifically, you saw us jumping off of one tomb on top of a platform and just splatting.

Speaker0:
[27:03] You didn't say a tomb. I know.

Speaker1:
[27:04] I'm drawing that out now. We did say it was Necropolis. Yeah. So anyone that's been to Necropolis probably knows exactly what it was.

Speaker2:
[27:10] Or anybody who knows what a Necropolis is.

Speaker0:
[27:12] That's true.

Speaker1:
[27:13] But yeah. Now another thing that was interesting, and this was something we talked about when we first started dating. And I didn't really fully understand it, and now I think I do. The issue with masks.

Speaker2:
[27:26] Oh, God.

Speaker1:
[27:27] I have the Bernie mask, of course, that I wear. And the very first time you saw me in it, you were endlessly disturbed.

Speaker2:
[27:35] I was. I was. I was broken.

Speaker1:
[27:38] Now, explain that a little bit. I'm going to get a sip of soda. Yes.

Speaker2:
[27:43] Well, because you no longer looked like Jonathan, and I could not trust what was underneath the mask. It could have been anybody under the mask. You could have put the mask on and then like step behind a wall and then somebody else come out. And it would be not Jonathan under there, but it would look like the new Jonathan information, right? Because now Jonathan looks like Bernie.

Speaker0:
[28:05] Right.

Speaker2:
[28:05] So everybody who looks like Bernie is Jonathan.

Speaker1:
[28:07] And that's because you don't have that mental image of what's behind the mask. Right.

Speaker2:
[28:12] I don't. I have to remind myself, you know, it's a checklist. It's like, okay, now Jonathan has this description. and it's a temporary description but still this is the current description of Jonathan and what I told you at Hong Kong Hong Kong this year was that if you go and you have somebody else wear your mask I am leaving you forever and will never talk to you again. That will break us up because I won't be able to trust what is underneath that mask. Now I see the Bernie mask and I know that that is other Jonathan's face

Speaker1:
[28:44] This is like Jonathan and, you know, pay to... Jonathan 2.0,

Speaker2:
[28:48] Yes.

Speaker1:
[28:49] It's Spock with a goatee, basically.

Speaker2:
[28:51] It is. It is. So, yeah. So I'm okay with it as long as I know exactly what's under it.

Speaker1:
[28:58] But it took years for you to get there.

Speaker2:
[29:00] Oh, it did.

Speaker1:
[29:00] Now, how does that work for you inside haunted houses? You see people with masks on all the time or in heavy makeup or whatever.

Speaker2:
[29:07] Yes, and you say, oh, look, that's that person that we know and you've seen dozens of times. And I'm like, oh, really? That's great. because I don't know them, can't recognize them from their body movements or from their face under makeup.

Speaker0:
[29:24] Right.

Speaker2:
[29:25] Yeah, so, oh, we saw so-and-so in the haunt. Really? Okay.

Speaker1:
[29:31] Well, does it impact you? Does it scare me? Say someone you don't know.

Speaker2:
[29:34] Oh, no. No, because I know that there's a person under there. I just have no idea what the person looks like. I don't imagine a face under it. And I just imagine a person under it.

Speaker1:
[29:46] It sounds like an awfully stupid question. Yeah. But, you know, given how deep this can run, you do know there is a person under there. Oh, yes.

Speaker2:
[29:54] No, I do not think that it's actually Chucky

Speaker1:
[29:57] Or a demon or

Speaker2:
[29:58] Whatever. Or a demon, yes. Okay. No, I know that it's an actual person under there.

Speaker1:
[30:03] But do you find masks more disturbing because of that?

Speaker2:
[30:06] Um. Okay, so not in a haunt type thing, because I don't know, nor do I care who's under it. I don't care who the actor is or what they really look like. Okay. Right? But if it's somebody that I'm supposed to know, outside of a haunt, yes, I do find masks intensely disturbing.

Speaker1:
[30:27] Right. Because it frustrates that ability to visualize what's underneath.

Speaker2:
[30:30] Yeah, because I have no idea what's underneath, and I don't even think I know how to imagine what might be underneath.

Speaker0:
[30:37] Yeah. Should we mention clowns?

Speaker2:
[30:41] Oh, clowns are horrible. The absolute only redeeming value of clowns is that their makeup is trademarked or copyrighted or whatever. Yes. Their makeup is IP'd. So as long as they're following that rule, which you can't trust them to follow because people steal,

Speaker1:
[31:02] People stuff.

Speaker2:
[31:03] I know they're clowns. You can't trust clowns. But.

Speaker0:
[31:06] But.

Speaker1:
[31:08] These clowns do not write us. I don't want like a thousand letters from clowns complaining about themselves.

Speaker2:
[31:15] Yes. But as long as they're following the rule where they're not allowed to wear other people's makeup, then I think I'd be okay more with clowns. But yeah, clowns disturb me. Masks disturb me because I have no idea who the person is underneath it.

Speaker1:
[31:30] One of the early seasons, we did a gag where we took people who were roughly the same size and shape, like Kevin and Crystal's dad, I think, were too, and put them in the same mask. We bought multiple copies of the same mask.

Speaker2:
[31:45] That's horrible. That is all the horrible. Why would you do that?

Speaker1:
[31:51] To make it look like this serial killer was everywhere.

Speaker2:
[31:56] That's horrible. that's absolutely horrible now how would I deal with that in a haunt I don't have so I would deal with that horribly with people that I know and I know the people that are in right y'all's haunt our haunt whatever the haunt that's at our house but if I was like at a random haunt I don't know how I would deal with that would

Speaker1:
[32:18] You assume it's the same person would you

Speaker2:
[32:20] If it looked like the same person then yeah i'd probably assume it was the same person and that they were magically getting places by teleportation or actor runs yeah or actor runs same difference whatever it doesn't matter if i can't see it okay yeah

Speaker1:
[32:36] Because the wall you see the wall and that's the end of it you're not thinking about what's on the other side

Speaker2:
[32:41] Of it yeah if i if i can't see it doesn't matter how it happens all it matters is that it does happen right mfm right yeah mfm um Um, so yeah, yeah, I, I don't know that it would bother me. I'm trying to think of like, would a flash mob of people bother me? Probably not. I would, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker0:
[33:01] What about multiple people in the same mask in the same room?

Speaker2:
[33:06] Oh, then I would just assume that they were multiple people in the same mask. Because I know how masks work.

Speaker0:
[33:10] Yeah, I know that.

Speaker2:
[33:11] Don't talk like I don't know how masks work. I know how masks work.

Speaker1:
[33:14] You don't know how images work.

Speaker2:
[33:16] Well, no, I don't know how. Why would it be more disturbing? More people in the same thing. Only if I'm required to know which one of them was special. Like if I was supposed to be following one of them. If one of them was the guide and one of them was not the guide. One of them was the evil guide. and they look the same. Yeah, that would probably really disturb me because if they were dressed exactly the same, I don't think I'd be able to...

Speaker0:
[33:38] That's a good idea for how to actually mess with people with aphantasia.

Speaker2:
[33:43] Yes, put two of them there, make them go like this or whatever, like cross each other's paths. Like a shell game or something. Yeah, do a shell game with people in the same costume that look the same, you know, that would otherwise describe out the same.

Speaker1:
[33:55] It better work well with people that don't have aphantasia.

Speaker0:
[33:58] Well, yeah, because you could do it and have it be a speaking role, and you don't know who you're talking to until they actually speak at the end. So you switch them out, and then as the last thing, they say something in a different voice.

Speaker2:
[34:14] Yeah, it would probably need to be a dramatically different voice, because a lot of people with aphantasia don't have sound memory either, or sound imagination either. I do but I I played violin for like 15 years so I've got the 10,000 hours to to be able to do a pitch in my head right but but yeah that would that total that uncanny Valley nests right yeah

Speaker1:
[34:44] Okay, we've got about 15-ish minutes left. So, moving on to the creative side, a Fantasia. Now, you're not active in building the haunt, which I'm thinking right now is a very good thing.

Speaker2:
[34:59] Well, that's just because you saw the skull I painted for you.

Speaker1:
[35:04] But, I mean, I know how difficult it is for Crystal and I to get on a common vision oftentimes. Right. And maybe part of that is maybe possibly the hyper Fantasia. and that we both get such clear images of what's going on and that we can't shake ourselves off of it to see what the other person's talking about. Right. So maybe we have the opposite problem with that communication. I mean, it's something for us to think about as we start this year's build come summer.

Speaker0:
[35:28] Yeah, because I have very clear visions of like two of the rooms that are going in there.

Speaker1:
[35:32] Yeah, and it can be very difficult to relay that or to have someone share it precisely.

Speaker0:
[35:37] Well, not only that, but it's very difficult and it's disappointing whenever it doesn't come out the way that I want it to. As detailed and as rich as what I see in my head.

Speaker1:
[35:53] Or even like we've had issues, and I'm sure every haunter's had these issues, where measurements were not precise for one reason or another. And so you couldn't fit everything you thought you could fit into a room.

Speaker0:
[36:02] Right.

Speaker1:
[36:03] We've had that issue.

Speaker2:
[36:04] Maybe I should be measuring stuff for y'all. Maybe.

Speaker1:
[36:07] But people with aphantasia have the opposite problem of they can't see the end product in their head anyway. Right. All they see is what's in front of their faces. And so if you say to them, well, how's this project going to look? No, you'll see when it's done.

Speaker2:
[36:26] Yeah, you'll see it when it's done. It'll have this many rooms, and the rooms...

Speaker1:
[36:33] Will be these themes.

Speaker2:
[36:35] Yes, we'll have these themes in it, and maybe be this color, because...

Speaker1:
[36:40] But you can't, like, paint an image with your words from your mind.

Speaker2:
[36:44] Well, no, of course not. Of course not. I could maybe draw one, because I struggled through a year of drafting. crafting. Yeah. And it was a giant struggle, but yeah.

Speaker0:
[36:57] Yeah, but if somebody says, okay, we're going to put this and this over here, and it's going to look like this.

Speaker2:
[37:02] No, no, not until it's there. Even put this and this over here. I can't even imagine what this and this are. In fact, you may as well just say, I'm going to put this and this over here. That says as much to me.

Speaker0:
[37:14] I'm going to put an apple and orange near the cabinet.

Speaker2:
[37:15] Oh yeah, no, that's as useful to me as put this and this over here. Yeah.

Speaker1:
[37:19] So, like the describer room we did last year, we're going to have a mad scientist room with stone walls and there's going to be a laboratory table on the left hand side as you come in and then there's going to be a gore box none of that means anything other than you've physically seen the room

Speaker2:
[37:34] Other than I've physically seen the room and I know not to go all the way forward or all the way to the left because that's the mad scientist table over there and I know not to go too far over to the right because that's where the gore box is going to be but I can't, I've seen the gore box I saw the gore box two weeks ago yeah I don't know. Is it boxed or are limbs?

Speaker0:
[37:55] Yeah.

Speaker1:
[37:58] Box, hashtag limbs, hashtag.

Speaker2:
[38:01] Or box.limbs. Hanging. Or hanging over, not hanging from the top.

Speaker0:
[38:07] See?

Speaker2:
[38:08] I can describe what it is. Not usefully. Not good to describe.

Speaker1:
[38:13] You can't like... It's hard to say, and this is like one thing I'm trying to get at is, you're very, very crafty person. If you're a crafter, you knit, you crochet,

Speaker0:
[38:24] You make your own patterns.

Speaker1:
[38:26] You do all these things. I write code. You write code. Yes, absolutely. You're a coder, obviously. You might do that a little bit. That one's just a little bit. You don't do that as much as you...

Speaker2:
[38:37] Don't tell my boss. But until I actually physically make it, I have no idea what it's going to look like. So when I'm designing something, I'll make it, and it's like, oh, no, this doesn't look how I want it to look. So I'll just pull it out and redo.

Speaker1:
[38:59] Let's say you had a project where you had to work with me or Crystal or someone else that's not a Phantagic and try to coordinate. How would you...

Speaker2:
[39:08] Remember that game concept?

Speaker0:
[39:11] You remember us trying to do puzzles together?

Speaker2:
[39:14] Oh, you do puzzles totally wrong.

Speaker1:
[39:15] I'm totally right.

Speaker0:
[39:17] I go by the pictures. You go by the outlines.

Speaker2:
[39:21] Yeah, I go by the outlines and the descriptor words on the pictures. Not the actual words written on the pictures. Right. These are eyes.

Speaker0:
[39:30] Yeah. So you put all the eyes together. Of course.

Speaker2:
[39:34] Of course I put all the eyes together. How else would I sort all the eyes?

Speaker1:
[39:39] Even though there'd be like 20 goddamn eyes all over the dam.

Speaker2:
[39:41] Well, yeah. Puzzled.

Speaker0:
[39:43] Yeah. And there are.

Speaker2:
[39:45] There are. And then she goes and moves them. We don't puzzle anymore. And it's not the cat's fault. Okay, so maybe it's the cat's fault, but they're the excuse. juice but

Speaker1:
[39:56] No so it's difficult to work with people that aren't on your level of fantasia i guess

Speaker2:
[40:03] I i think so because we get frustrated by different things when we're implementing those ideas and

Speaker1:
[40:09] You and you and you create and implement ideas very

Speaker2:
[40:12] Differently yeah i do it very iteratively i build it it doesn't look exactly like i wanted to do so i'm just like oh okay put that to the side and let's start again so say with no frustration say we're

Speaker1:
[40:25] Before working in the haunt with you, how would we best relate to you what the vision is?

Speaker2:
[40:33] Tell me exactly what you want it to look like. I will make a prototype.

Speaker1:
[40:39] Okay.

Speaker2:
[40:40] Like when I made the bones. Right. Tell me what you want the bones to look like. I made bones. They looked the way you wanted them to look. Then I made more of those that looked a whole bunch like that one looked.

Speaker0:
[40:51] Yeah.

Speaker1:
[40:52] Pretty much exactly. Because the bone wall needed that.

Speaker2:
[40:56] Yeah. So I can build off of prototypes once I make a thing. And I'm pretty good at... I'm remaking the same thing. And not being bored by remaking the same thing. I'm making 20, 50 of these doily things.

Speaker1:
[41:12] In a weird way, I guess that makes, and maybe this is just you, or maybe this is all people with Aphantasia, very good at like a craft copy machine.

Speaker2:
[41:20] Yes.

Speaker1:
[41:21] Once you can see and hold something, you can make more of them.

Speaker2:
[41:25] Yes. Yeah, but I can't necessarily make something that you're hallucinating in your brain.

Speaker1:
[41:32] Even if I'm able to describe it with impeccable detail, it's not going to come across or have the same impact.

Speaker2:
[41:38] Right.

Speaker1:
[41:39] And that's assuming I can do that. That's a big assumption, as we've learned. I'm just a writer. I mean...

Speaker2:
[41:44] Yeah, because I only get so much level of detail in my metadata list that I store about the thing. It's like, make a bone. It's this long and it's this color. Okay, I can do that. But then if you want it to, I don't know, have certain dimple-y things, I'm not going to see those.

Speaker1:
[42:04] Okay, so yeah, I guess that would be one way possibly to work with someone with aphantasia. Rather than saying, I want a boat, I want it to look like a Viking ship and with sails and all this. Say, I want a boat, it's got to be six feet long, have a sail.

Speaker2:
[42:22] I think so. Yeah, put some actual detail in there. They're not what you think of as detail, but like actual detail. Yeah.

Speaker0:
[42:30] Well, and I mean, that's actually something that we learned from Liz, who is the other person we know in our crafting circle, for her Mardi Gras corset this year. You know, she did not draw the image that she's doing, and she knew what she wanted, but she had to describe it in such a way that the artist she was working with could draw it out for her. and I'm sure that that process was painful and took a little extra time.

Speaker1:
[42:59] I feel bad for both of them. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker0:
[43:02] I feel bad for both of them too.

Speaker1:
[43:04] I love Liz, but she can be enough of a pain to start with.

Speaker0:
[43:08] Good thing she doesn't listen to us.

Speaker1:
[43:10] We're safe on that one.

Speaker0:
[43:12] Love you, Liz.

Speaker1:
[43:13] Love you, Liz.

Speaker0:
[43:14] It's true.

Speaker1:
[43:17] But, yeah, no, I feel very bad for anyone trying to do that because it's going to be very difficult. Yeah. And what's so striking to me about it, and I guess this is kind of bringing it home a little bit, is just how fundamentally different of a way of thinking it is.

Speaker2:
[43:33] Yeah. Right. And I think part of why I make things is because I can't tell you how to make a thing that I want to make.

Speaker0:
[43:39] Right.

Speaker2:
[43:39] I'm not capable of describing something for you to make it like Liz telling somebody to draw a picture for her.

Speaker0:
[43:45] Yeah.

Speaker1:
[43:45] And, of course, Liz is probably saying, I want a boat on the water with trees and a sky.

Speaker2:
[43:50] It's something about a churn.

Speaker0:
[43:52] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker2:
[43:53] That's important. That churn is important.

Speaker0:
[43:55] English churn is important. And whenever she described it, I had a totally different vision of what it would look like than what she ended up with.

Speaker2:
[44:05] What she ended up with is adequate to me. It sounds like all the words she was saying.

Speaker0:
[44:08] Yeah. And you're right. It does.

Speaker1:
[44:11] Well, and here's the thing. The way she described it, I'm willing to bet if you and I, Crystal, had sat down and drawn what we envisioned, our visions would have been different, too.

Speaker0:
[44:22] Oh, yeah. Totally.

Speaker1:
[44:22] Because all she did, like, only described, is provided the metadata of the things that were included. Yes. Tree, boat, water, sky.

Speaker2:
[44:31] Yeah. And it checked off all of those boxes. Yes, it did.

Speaker0:
[44:33] And I actually had considered drawing it for her, but she wanted a specific boat, but she couldn't find the picture for it. and whenever you want a specific thing and I don't know what the specific thing looks like then I have to find a reference yeah and especially.

Speaker1:
[44:51] If it's someone like Liz that isn't able to get the image herself and describe it oh god

Speaker2:
[44:58] I couldn't imagine trying to give a description to the police to a sketch artist

Speaker0:
[45:04] Yeah that would be difficult bolt um yeah so if.

Speaker1:
[45:13] Anybody wants a target to rock

Speaker0:
[45:14] Don't do that no.

Speaker2:
[45:19] I would apparently ellie

Speaker1:
[45:20] Cannot describe yeah

Speaker2:
[45:22] Not really yeah yeah it's okay though I'm not dead yet.

Speaker1:
[45:28] Yeah. Well, it's such a fascinating, and the fundamental way in which the difference in thinking works really blew my mind to learn about it. And to find out that two people very, very close to me have aphantasia blew my mind, and I'm still, and the other thing about it I find so interesting is that it's not like it's a pass-fail thing that we discussed. There is a spectrum. People exist at various points. You and I, Crystal, are very hyper-fantasiac from the looks of things. And Ellie is very, very a-fantasiac. Very, very, very a-fantasiac. But there is a whole spectrum there. And so when working with people on haunts and other large craft projects, it may be important to find out where they exist on that spectrum.

Speaker0:
[46:20] I think it is.

Speaker1:
[46:21] So that you know how to approach them when trying to collaborate creatively.

Speaker2:
[46:26] Right yeah and don't get upset when the person can't i don't know come up with a really creative descriptive story or whatever tell me what you

Speaker1:
[46:36] See tell me

Speaker2:
[46:37] What you see yeah it's your job to write the description yeah you don't want me to write your descriptions you really don't just be

Speaker1:
[46:44] A bunch of hashtags

Speaker2:
[46:44] Yeah but hashtag tree but you know you want you want me to make like 50 of something sure i can do that right you know and they'll all be the same as far as their description goes right yeah but but yeah so don't try to give people jobs that they aren't suited for no no i'm really upset with all my english teachers going through school yeah right make write a story that you make up now you get an f because your story sucks of course my story sucks Well,

Speaker1:
[47:20] There's an old... Was it Einstein who said it? If we... If we judge intelligence by how well you can climb a tree, then every fish is an idiot or something like that. I can't remember what the exact quote was. But you have to be mindful of how we judge intelligence and creativity, too, I think. Yeah. Because if we judge creativity solely by how well you can create this picture in your mind and build a universe or build a world in your head, then people like Ellie are immediately very uncreative. They're like anti-creative. but I know personally that is not true in the least.

Speaker2:
[47:58] Well, yeah, I think part of the thing is that I will make... I'm used to failure. I'm used to the thing not implementing to the way that I imagined it might implement. Right. So just throwing it away and starting over again.

Speaker0:
[48:13] Yeah.

Speaker2:
[48:14] And, yeah, that's... So, yeah.

Speaker1:
[48:17] Maybe parachuting isn't your hobby.

Speaker2:
[48:20] Yeah, probably not, but...

Speaker1:
[48:22] First you don't succeed.

Speaker2:
[48:23] But R&D. Could be, but not necessarily on a deadline, right? Right. Because I need all the time in the world because I need to fail the first 60 times.

Speaker0:
[48:33] Yeah.

Speaker1:
[48:34] So, yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I think one thing that you may want to be cognizant of, especially with the people who are on the build and the design team of your haunt, maybe take a moment and find out where they're on the spectrum. Go to the link that we have on the BBC website. Have them take that test.

Speaker0:
[48:53] Right.

Speaker1:
[48:54] And have them find out where on the spectrum they are, because it's going to help you communicate with them and maybe even help you find the tasks they're better at. Because when collaborating creatively with someone, it is so important to speak the same mental language. And I've got to say, after knowing Ellie for this long, it can be very difficult if one of us is talking in pictures and the other is talking in hashtags and bullet points.

Speaker2:
[49:24] Yeah, it's frustrating.

Speaker1:
[49:25] It is. We might as well be speaking two different computer languages or something like that. It can be very, very difficult. You have to translate everything to the other person. Right. And that is damn near impossible with this.

Speaker2:
[49:41] And not necessary to do all the time.

Speaker1:
[49:43] Yeah.

Speaker2:
[49:44] I like to go on and on and on about, I don't know, all the creative stuff that doesn't really matter.

Speaker0:
[49:53] Yeah.

Speaker1:
[49:54] But, yeah, it's such a fascinating thing. And I do think we should try to incorporate more for people with aphantasia into haunts themselves. Because, on one hand, they're more difficult to scare, more difficult to mess with, because they have that lowered expectation. They're not visualizing the world outside of what they can see.

Speaker0:
[50:14] Yeah.

Speaker1:
[50:15] And they're not visualizing... necessarily anything other than what's in front of them either. They're not filling in blanks.

Speaker2:
[50:22] Yeah, I'm not worried about the monster behind the species tunnel.

Speaker1:
[50:26] They're not filling in blanks that aren't there, as you said.

Speaker0:
[50:30] Yes. Claustrophobia tunnel.

Speaker2:
[50:33] Yes, yes. I'm not visualizing a monster behind there.

Speaker0:
[50:36] See, I do. The first time going into one of those actually was... there was intrepidation on my part because I didn't know if somebody was going to reach from underneath or... Well, I knew that the walls were filled with air.

Speaker2:
[50:55] Gotcha. I'm just worried that I'm going to lose my little cat ears.

Speaker1:
[50:58] Yeah. Or they might tear the...

Speaker0:
[51:00] Yes.

Speaker2:
[51:01] Yeah.

Speaker1:
[51:02] Maybe take off the pointy cat ears before you go into the cluster of your tunnel.

Speaker2:
[51:06] Yeah, I do that sometimes.

Speaker1:
[51:08] That probably is wise. Otherwise, I would just see you shredding them. And then we got some very expensive...

Speaker0:
[51:16] Yeah. That would not be good.

Speaker1:
[51:18] That would not be good. No. But yeah, I mean, I think there has to be a way to do more. Because even though people with amortization are not a significant portion of the population, think about this for a second. We talked previously about people with photosensitive epilepsy. Right. That photosensitive epilepsy occurs roughly in a third of a percent. Right. Of all people. Now, that's still a high enough percentage to definitely make changes, especially given the severity of it.

Speaker2:
[51:44] Right. Yeah, but we're like six times as common then. Exactly. I wonder how common we are in the haunt audience.

Speaker1:
[51:50] That's a very good question.

Speaker2:
[51:51] Because our crafting group is 40%. aphantasic yeah you know that and that's compared to two percent in just everybody right so i wonder what it is what it's like in the crap and that's a good question

Speaker1:
[52:05] That'd be a good thing to find out and another thing to stress by the way i meant to say this before is we're obviously talking about ellie's experiences and to a lesser degree our other friend liz's experiences right we're not meaning this to be a generalization for everyone with aphantasia right and what they experience Yeah. But, because obviously we can only speak, or Ellie can only speak for herself. If you have a Fantasia, send us a message. We'd love...

Speaker2:
[52:30] I want to make more friends with a Fantasia.

Speaker1:
[52:32] She's going to launch a support group.

Speaker0:
[52:34] Yes.

Speaker1:
[52:35] Picture this. That's a title already. But, anyway, so, yeah, I mean, we want to hear your experiences, both in terms of going through haunts and how A Fantasia may have changed your haunt attendance experience and also if you work for a haunt, how it has changed collaborating creatively with others. Because I mean, I'm very fascinated by this and having, it's really weird because we've been with you for four years now. Yes. And for three and a half of them, we had no idea you had A Fantasia.

Speaker2:
[53:15] Well, no, I thought y'all were doing a metaphor when you're like, picture this. Or mind's eye. Yeah, or mind's eye, or imagine how this looks.

Speaker0:
[53:23] Or the phrase daydreaming meant something. Oh, yes.

Speaker2:
[53:27] Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's, or counting sheep.

Speaker0:
[53:30] Yes.

Speaker2:
[53:31] Y'all actually count sheep.

Speaker0:
[53:32] Yes.

Speaker2:
[53:33] You're not just like counting, I don't know, a list of sheep.

Speaker0:
[53:37] No.

Speaker2:
[53:38] Going down the cells of a spreadsheet or something. No.

Speaker1:
[53:41] Your spreadsheet. We see a few sheep doing things, and we're counting the actual...

Speaker2:
[53:46] But they're not there.

Speaker0:
[53:47] Yes.

Speaker2:
[53:48] Your whole life is like the show Happy.

Speaker0:
[53:52] With the little blue guy.

Speaker1:
[53:54] Oh, God.

Speaker2:
[53:55] I think the problem

Speaker1:
[53:57] Is when you start having conversations with the fish.

Speaker1:
[54:01] I think that's when it becomes a problem. But, you know, I definitely would love to hear the experiences of others, because this, I think... Honestly, I have to say, given the fact this was first discovered in 1880, and it's only recently been getting any kind of attention, like in the last, I would say, four or five years.

Speaker2:
[54:19] There's a guy studying it in England.

Speaker1:
[54:21] Oh, good. That is being studied now. And for the record, I should stress something else. We've been calling it aphantasia this whole time. That is only the suggested name. It doesn't even have a scientific name. Yeah.

Speaker2:
[54:32] Yeah. Yeah. That's, of course it doesn't. Of course it doesn't.

Speaker1:
[54:38] It doesn't even have a scientific name. It is the suggested name. And I'm pretty sure when it gets around to actually naming this phenomenon, it'll be the one chosen simply because it's too late to turn back now. Well, Ellie.

Speaker1:
[54:52] Thank you very much for joining us. We greatly appreciate you being with us and helping shed some light and helping us really visualize the life of people in Fantasia.

Speaker0:
[55:05] Yes, yes.

Speaker2:
[55:06] It's a life without seeing things that aren't there.

Speaker1:
[55:10] Oh, God. But on that note, everyone, thank you very much for joining us and putting up with our random banter for the past hour. You can definitely follow and find more of us on HauntWeekly.com. We are Haunt Weekly on Twitter and Facebook. Be sure to follow us at both places.

Speaker1:
[55:26] We are also at tinyurl.com slash Haunt Weekly. That is our YouTube channel. Subscribe to us there. Get updates there. We're on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, anywhere. Find our podcast or soul. We have no idea where they let us in either. But bottom line, follow us in all the places. And until next time, I'm Jonathan.

Speaker0:
[55:45] I'm Crystal.

Speaker1:
[55:46] And this was Haunt Weekly, episode number 113, A Fantasian Haunting. We will see you guys next time.