Our 2024 Predictions + Jenny Slate Answers Your Hard Questions!

Oh my God, this sweater is made out of the worst. So I got like wish.com so hard on this. What is that? Okay, first of all, you're using wish.com as a verb. What does that even mean? Okay, so you know on wish.com when you order something that looks like a nice like sequined dress or something and it arrives and it's like that. I've never actually ordered a sequined dress off at wish.com Kevin. How did yours actually look when it arrived?

I'm just saying this is like a thing that people are okay. They order from wish.com. There's something that looks very nice and then it shows up and it's like a piece of garbage. So this when I ordered this on Amazon, it looks like a sweater. It looked woven. It looked very like luxurious. That's gonna be very comfortable even though it's hideous. It shows up. It's like one of those sweatsuits that like wrestlers wear to make weight like a the day before the meat.

It's just polyester. It's like zero breathability. Like I'm burning alive in this. It looks like it costs about $8. Is that right? I think it was like 13. Okay, so we have for 13, I think you probably were wrong to expect it would be hand woven artisans. I would say that's a $13 sweatshirt if I've ever seen one. I'm Kevin Russo, Tech Collins, The New York Times. I'm Casey Neumann from Platformer and this is a special holiday edition of Hard Fork.

This week on the show we look back at our predictions for this year and tell you our predictions for next and then comedian, actor and writer Jenny Slate joins us to answer your hardest questions about technology. Music Casey, happy holidays. Happy holidays to you Kevin. I can't believe we're here at the end of another year of Hard Fork. What a year. So much to celebrate. So much to recover from. It's been a very long, very good year for our podcast.

We've made so many, so many episodes and this is our last one of the year. After today, we are taking off for a holiday break. Kevin, I have to say that while I'm excited about every episode of Hard Fork that we do, this one in particular I think is really going to be a treat for folks. Because we're wearing hats and sweaters. Well, not only that, but we have got a guest who I somebody who I've been wanting to talk to forever. And we've got some interesting predictions about the year ahead.

Yeah. So I think we just talk through for those not watching us on YouTube right now. We are both wearing ugly holiday sweaters. Yours has like a Santa writing unit. It's beautiful. Here's these beautiful. Yours has like Santa in space writing on a unicorn. That's right. The official horse of the gay community. And you are wearing a even louder sweater sweatshirt that features a velociraptor wearing a Santa hat that is dragging Santa sleigh and Santa behind the velociraptor.

And what was sort of the artistic vision behind your fit today, Kevin. It was just sort of like what would happen if you put ugly Christmas monstrosity into dolly and like had it spin out a bunch of examples. I mean, just seemed like the most futuristic of the options available to me that were prime eligible on Amazon. Yeah. No, Casey, I love the holiday season. Yeah. I, you know, every year, you know, I start playing the holiday music right after Thanksgiving.

It's been on constant rotation in my house. And it's just it's my favorite time year. It is. And the way that I that I know this deeply is because the hats that we're wearing right now were your idea. So that's really the firmest evidence that I have that you really are a holiday person. But you know what? I'm a holiday person too. It's nice to come together at the end of the year to celebrate with friends to be together with friends and family in person to give it maybe a gift here or there.

These are the good times. You'll tide spirit is very important to me. That's right. All right. So today for our second annual holiday extravaganza. I thought that we should revisit those predictions and make some predictions for 2024. Punditry accountability. It's a crisis in this country. Think about how many predictions are being made all the time. But when did the pundits actually go back and point out what they got right, what they got wrong here on Hartford.

The Hartford promise is we're going to tell you how we did. We each made three predictions last year. I don't want to go through all of them. But if you could just say like, what is the thing that you predicted last year that you were the most right about and the most wrong about?

So here's the thing that I was most right about. I said last year the media's divorced from Twitter will begin in earnest and that to the extent that Twitter and the media are inextricably linked that will be much less true at the end of 2023. And I am here to tell you I was right about that. You were ex as it is now known has seen an exodus of users, advertisers and members of the press.

We've seen some news organizations, most notably NPR, stop posting on X entirely my little publication platformer is also no longer posting on X part of that is because I think a lot of folks just can't stomach what X is today.

And another big part of it is that we actually now have alternatives whether it is threads or mastodon or blue sky really interesting things are happening in the race to replace what Twitter used to be. In fact, as we're recording this Mark Zuckerberg just announced that they're going to begin testing actually federating threads the way that they say that they would. So threads and mastodon are going to be sort of linking up in a way that I think portans really interesting things for 2024.

But I could say that threat or anything you could say that I wouldn't say that. So yeah, that was one that I got right and one that I got right mostly was I predicted that this would be the year of the mini musk when a lot of Silicon Valley CEOs would see what Elon Musk did at Twitter with all his cost cutting and his mass layoffs and his.

And you know focus on extremely hard core engineering and efficiency and I think that has generally come true. I mean, we saw layoffs this year at a bunch of big tech companies a lot of focus on efficiency and stripping out layers of management. Not everyone is sort of like emulated Elon Musk's every move because obviously that has not gone well at Twitter, but I would say this cost cutting in particular is something that we've seen across a lot of the tech industry.

So unfortunately, I was pretty right about that. What was the thing you were most wrong about? Well, I said that I predict that the Supreme Court will uphold the Texas and Florida social media laws and make content moderation legal there. And this has not happened yet. Both of these cases are still pending and it is still possible that it might happen, but so far has it come true. And the thing I was most wrong about I predicted that TikTok would be banned in the United States in the year 2023.

That did not happen and in fact, I would say it's probably less likely that it will be banned now than it looked a year ago when lawmakers were, you know, furious about it and accused that of being a Chinese spying up. There's still a lot of concern about TikTok, but I don't think it's going to get banned anytime soon. Well, and I guess we should say that one way that you were right was that Montana did pass a ban on TikTok, but it got blocked in court.

And I imagine that similar efforts around the country will meet the same fate. Yeah, yeah. All right, let's get to our predictions for next year for 2024. Last year, we started a tradition that I think we should keep this year was just to separate our predictions into confidence intervals. So we have high confidence predictions. These are predictions that were like 80% sure will happen in 2024.

Medium confidence predictions, which are like maybe 50% coin flip and then low confidence predictions, which are things that maybe are only 20% likely to happen, but they would be kind of funny if they did. I like that. You go first. What's your high confidence prediction? Okay. My high confidence prediction is that threads over. Well, you know what's so funny? I wrote threads overtakes X and daily users and launches in the Fediverse. I wrote this on December 12th on December 13th.

Threads announced that they were coming to the Fediverse. So Mark Zuckerberg has preempted me the rascal. So I guess I would amend my high confidence prediction to just threads overtakes X in daily users. Okay. This is essentially just an extension of my prediction from last year. So maybe you can say that I'm not trying hard enough here.

But I still see skeptics. In fact, the economist Tyler Cowan wrote a blog post this month where he said that essentially things are going much better on X than the media would have you believe. And this is still kind of where the action is. And I'm sorry, but I just don't think that is the case. I see more interesting stuff happening on threads every day. And I believe that by the end of 2024, it is going to be the text based social platform of choice for the most daily users.

Yeah, I couldn't see this, but I'm also like I kind of see Tyler Cowan's point to like it has been surprising to me how much longevity Twitter has had. Even as I think you and I would both agree the quality of the discourse over on X has been just worsening every day. You know, people keep sort of loudly announcing their departures. And yet, you know, when big news happens when the open AI stuff was happening when stuff happens in Gaza that people really want to know about.

A lot of them are still going to X to figure out what's going on. So as much as I would like to see that platform sort of, you know, decline as a source of news from people who, you know, care about seeing good information. It does not seem to be losing users as fast as I would have assumed. All right. Well, I guess we'll just see who turns out to be right on that one. What is your high confidence prediction for next year?

My high confidence prediction is that a lawless LLM chatbot will get 10 million daily active users. What do I mean by lawless LLM chatbot? I mean, basically a version of chat GPT with no rules or very few rules. And one of the things that makes me confident about this is I just think we are starting to see a kind of backlash to what people feel are the overly restrictive policies that some of these chatbot makers have.

As you've talked about, like if you ask anything remotely sexual or spicy of one of these chatbots, it shuts you down. Like you can't discuss, you know, controversial political issues. And you also can't do a lot of stuff that, you know, people seem to want to do, which is like have AI girlfriends and boyfriends or have erotic conversations.

So up until now there have been sort of open source chatbots or chatbots that have been tailor made for some of these sort of more, you know, controversial use cases. But none of them have grown very big. And the big companies like open AI have really stayed away from those markets because they don't want to be known as like, you know, spicy chatbot companies.

But in 2024, I think what we're going to see is that these open source models are getting good enough that someone is just going to take one of them, take all of the guardrails off, put a chatbot interface and put it online. And I think that will be a very popular product. I got to say, Kevin, I think this is a good one. And the main reason is that there is so much money to be made here. It is sitting on the table. Somebody is eventually going to pick it up in 2024. Is this good year? Is any?

Yeah. All right. What's your medium conference prediction? All right. Medium confidence. Google mostly catches up to open AI in LLM quality and begins to neutralize the lead that chat. And I think that the end of next year, open AI's best product still is a little bit better than Google's best product. I just think it is going to matter less because I think that Google is going to get better and better at figuring out how to distribute the stuff that it has.

And I think it's large language models in front of you, helping you figure out new ways to use it in the places where you're already using Google, whether it is Gmail or Chrome or Docs or any of the other places where so many people are already using Google. So I think next year you start to see the differences in quality between the LLM's matter less and distribution matters more and Google is very good distribution.

I like that prediction. All right. My medium conference prediction is that white collar workers will start unionizing to fight AI related job loss. So this is something that I've been waiting to see ever since the Hollywood actors and writers strikes is whether a sort of workers in other industries were going to get worried about the use of AI to replace their jobs or to hurt their economic position in some way and would start to form unions in industries that have not historically had large.

Union presences think law think finance think some pockets of media even tech industry unions. I think are possible because now programmers some of them are starting to worry that their jobs are going to be replaced. And actually the AFL CIO, which is one of the biggest unions in the country announced that it was forming a partnership with Microsoft to sort of study and discuss the ways that AI should be incorporated into workplaces.

So this is already a conversation that is happening in a lot of white collar industries among workers who are starting to get nervous about this stuff and I think the 2024 maybe the year that we start to see workers take real action to stand up and say this technology is happening. We're worried about what it means for the future of our work and we're going to unionize in order to be able to bargain collectively about it.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think we're going to see a lot more workers asking that question as they should be. Yep. Totally. All right. What's your low confidence prediction? All right. And I do want to stress this is a low confidence prediction. But what I've written here is Apple's vision pro, it's mixed reality headset is successful enough to revive interest in mixed reality and the

end of the metaverse. Wow, you think the metaverse is back. I think it could be making a comeback. You know, for so long, I waved away stories about AI because there was nothing in my world that I was using and I just kind of couldn't really see it. I accepted that maybe it would be something someday, but there was nothing that was on my computer right now that I could use. I wonder if 2024 is going to be like that for the metaverse for some people.

The vision pro is incredibly expensive, cost more than $3,000. Most people are not going to have one. But Apple is the best in the world when it comes to creating technological status symbols. And when this thing comes out, it is going to be an object of fascination.

I think rich people are going to clamor to get them. They'll be bragging to all their friends about what they're doing in them. And I do think that that could offer a little ground swell of support for what Apple is not calling the metaverse, but of course, meta is.

I think that'll be able to capitalize on that. They're making their own improvements to their own headsets. And so by the end of 2024, does it feel like maybe VR mixed reality is a little bit bigger than it was in 2023. I do have low confidence that that is true. Yeah, I also have low confidence that is true. But I think it's possible, which is why I like that you included that as your low confidence prediction.

All right, mine is Elon Musk will get his own Hunter Biden laptop scandal. Oh, tell me more about this. I don't know if you've heard, but in 2024 in the United States, there will be an election. Yes, of course. And notoriously in presidential election years, people get up to all the craziest shenanigans on the internet. That's true. I believe Donald Trump is calling it the final election will ever have.

Yes. So notoriously during the 2020 election cycle, there was this whole drama where the New York Post reported a story about Hunter Biden's laptop. And it was right before the election and people were speculating is this Russian disinformation was this material hacked Twitter, which at the time was run by Jack Dorsey decided to sort of throttle and cut off access to this article while it tried to fear it was going on.

This became a huge conflagration people got super upset accused them of censorship. Jack Dorsey ended up sort of saying that was a mistake. And this became sort of one of the things that I would argue sort of caused Elon Musk to want to buy Twitter and to radically reorient its views on content moderation. He was very upset that this thing had happened. He wanted to like get to the bottom of it. And so he bought the company and changed the rules. And I think that in 2024 we may say that he was going to be a big fan of the world.

And in 2024 we may see a similar October surprise from the other side. And I think that when that happens when there's something about Donald Trump or whoever the Republican nominee is that Elon Musk doesn't like or thinks might be disinformation or just is skeptical of he is going to decide to throttle access to it or cut it off. And so he's going to be there by replicating the exact mirror image of the situation that made him so pissed off that he bought Twitter in the first place.

Well, I like this because Elon Musk himself has said that the funniest outcome is often the most likely and this would be perhaps the funniest outcome for Musk acquired on the site. It's true. And I think that when that happens he should hire you well Roth to fix the problem and restore trust and safety at X. And I think that's why it might not be available for that job anymore, but you can ask. All right. So that's my low confidence prediction. I like these predictions.

Yeah. I think we covered a lot of ground next year is going to be big. I'm sure that there are some stories that are not in these predictions that will wide up dominating a good deal of discussion next year. But I don't know from what what we know here in December. This seems like is good a series of guesses as any.

In fact, I think I like these predictions so much that I think we should do something that we've never done before on this show, which is to open prediction markets for our predictions. We've talked on the show about prediction markets. I spend some time on this site called manifold, which allows you to sort of bet on various outcomes.

And so we will go on and create prediction markets for all of our 2024 predictions so that our listeners and people who agree with us or disagree with us can go actually wager fake money on whether or not these things will happen. Yeah. I would say spend a lot of money on this. It's not money. It's mana. It's their fake currency. And if you want to bet on our 2024 prediction markets, you can find them on manifold dot markets.

And I also think we should check in on the predictions that have been made about us on manifold markets. Wait, you said like there are plural predictions that have been made about us. They're sure are. Yeah. So one of them that I think we should get your take on is will the hard fork podcast have one episode before the end of 2023 that does not talk about AI.

I mean, first of all, why would you want to have an episode of hard fork that doesn't talk about right. I love this though because it's like it's an active market. There have been 25 trades on this market. It's currently sitting at 10%. So people do not think it is likely that we will stop talking about AI. And I will say I love this as a form of reader feedback.

You know, in the old days, people would have written like an angry letter to the editor saying like, can those guys stop talking about AI. I'm really getting sick of it. Now you can just open a prediction market.

Look, I was we talk all the time about talking about things that are not AI. In fact, we often do have segments that are not about AI and they're some of my favorites. But it's like one of the things we're committed to is like telling the most important stories of the moment and AI just really is kind of at the center of all of them. Totally. The second prediction market that I wanted to check in with you about that already exists on manifold markets is has the following title.

Will Casey Newton begin dating an AI before June of 2024? Now I promise I did not write this really. This was made by the user we. And it's current probability is only 15%. So most people do not believe it is likely that you will begin dating an AI before June of 2024. But what do you think?

I mean, I also don't think I'll be getting an AI before June of 2024. I be curious to sort of know what is meant here by date. You know, is it meant that like once or twice a week like I go to dinner by myself and just like type onto my phone to do some sort of AI boyfriend? Because that does it seem very likely. Yeah, I don't know. I don't see it now. Do I think that by June many more people will have AI boyfriends, girlfriends and unbinder friends then they do date like yes, I do believe that.

Yeah, there actually are some discussions happening in the comments of this particular market about what the resolution criteria are one user asked how will this market resolve if after a few too many drinks Casey Newton has a spicy one night stand with an AI.

And then the morning Casey says it was a mistake and something that will never happen again. But somehow the AI gets Casey's phone number and starts calling it all hours, which Casey ignores one day until one day he gets a call during his goddotters, Kinsa and Yira, which causes him to grab the phone and shout angrily into the receiver that he will never love you before realizing that it was actually Kevin calling and he tries to explain but Kevin's not having it. And by the end of the month they've decided to put hard fork on indefinite hiatus so they can both pursue new opportunities.

Well, I'm glad someone has figured out the most likely outcome of all of this and just put it in writing so that I didn't have to. That's a really inspired piece of writing. It really is. Yeah, if you are the person who left that comment on the on the market for this question, please get in touch. We have some creative writing opportunities for you. Alright, that's enough predictions. When we come back, we have hard questions from our listeners and a very special guest, Jenny Slate.

Casey, we've got a special holiday treat today. So periodically on the show, we do our segment, hard questions where we solicit our listeners biggest ethical and moral dilemmas about technology or some tech thing that is going on in their lives and we try to answer them. And today to help us with that, we have a very special guest. That's right, because as much fun as Kevin and I have giving you advice, we know it could be better if we bring in one of the funniest people I know.

And right now we have a chance to do just that because Jenny Slate is coming on hard for this truly is a holiday treat Kevin because you look, we like to have fun on the show. We like to laugh. We like to joke around, but we are not professional comedians. Like, make people laugh is at best like a side project. Yes. Jenny Slate is a pro. And is one of the funniest people around. I first saw her on Saturday night live.

Then she played Mona Lisa Saberstein on Parks and Rec one of my favorite roles of hers. Since then she's done voices in a bunch of great animated films and TV shows, including Zootopia, Bob's Burgers and Big Mouth. And she is also the co-creator and voice of beloved character Marcel the Shell with shoes on. And incredibly, she's agreed to come on hard for and help us give out advice to listeners for the holidays. Have you ever been so excited for a segment?

No, I'm very excited. And I think we should also explain like how this came about. Yes, it was a little roundabout. So we got this DM and usually like I don't check my DMs on Instagram all that much because like it's mostly just cryptocurrency scams and stuff. But we did see a DM from someone purporting to be Jenny Slate and she had that blue check mark. Yes. And I thought, well, this is exciting. And she said, she said she listens to the show. And she said, I'll just read from her DM here.

If you ever want to talk to a 41 year old standup comedian who is afraid of tech but wants to learn about it, but it's very turned off by it. You can just email me. And we both sort of silently scream to ourselves and freaked out and immediately emailed her.

I mean, it was amazing. And yet I think Jenny really stands in for a lot of the audience here because I think so many listeners want to learn about tech and are also turned off by it at times. And I think you can probably describe both of us that way. And so Jenny, I think is very much a sympathico with the vibe of hard fork and she's here right now. Yeah, it's bring her in. Amazing.

Jenny Slate, welcome to Hard fork. Hello, thank you for having me. I just was listening and I was like, Oh, no, they want Chenaya Twain. This is like such a let down and I invited myself. The whole thing is weird. I haven't even told my other friends that I did this. And then I didn't tell my husband that I'm so embarrassed that I did it. And anyway, also get back to it. Great. Great.

Well, so I have to respond to the last thing you said, Jenny, because for a while, we have thought like it would be really cool if like a comedian or actor wanted to come on the show. But what are we supposed to do just like end the show by saying like, Hey, if you're like a celebrity DMS. And then literally you just DM does. So it was really kind of like a the secret moment where we manifested it. And I just think that, you know, this was meant to happen.

I just love that so much. And so many ways. And I listened to the podcast. I love it so much. I really just love the whole thing. I love your personalities and how much you guys make each other laugh. It just makes me smile so much. And I love all the information. And I hardly know how to work my computer. And so. I'm just going to ask like, what is your relationship to technology these days? Yeah. It's the same that it's been since like around Napster, if you think it's any sense.

So like for me, for example, the other day, I was parking my car and my husband was like trying to find the car. And he was like drop a pin. And my response was, I don't know how to do that. And it's like, I know it's not hard to learn, but there's something about technology that makes me feel really sometimes I get really petulant about it.

And I just like, and the modern equivalent of the old person who says like, well, we had to walk six hours, you know, six miles or hours or whatever, a long time or like a very hard way in the snow to go to school or something like I'm just. I have a computer. I don't really use it for anything except for I use Microsoft Word. It's a good one classic. Yeah, I love that one. I recently somehow recently my computer started to get my text messages and I don't know why, but I do.

I imagine the cities like your eye messages are popping up in a window on your computer. I this is how all the cool kids are texting these days. Is that true. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. So that's like that's an advanced level move, but it's very helpful when I find. Yeah, I mean, I love it. But then like there's a there's a limit. For example, my computer doesn't know who a lot of those people are. And so I don't know why some contacts go that like I'm like a grandmother.

And I'm comfortable with it. But then I started to be uncomfortable with not understanding what was like going on in the world. Yeah. And so that is why I listen to your podcast every week and enjoy it and take in the information and I feel less alienated from the world at large.

I guess. So amazing. Well, that's wonderful to hear. Thank you for listening and for coming on. I want to ask you about one more tech thing just, you know, based on our interactions, which was when we were we, you know, I think it's okay to say we were messaging on Instagram. You're okay to say. Yeah. And you suggested that you have you have had a maybe complicated relationship with Instagram, which I think Kevin and I have had as well.

Like can you speak to kind of maybe the ways it was driving you crazy a little bit. Yeah, for sure. It would sort of make me feel bad about myself. Even if someone that I like was doing something that they enjoyed and I was happy for them, there would be this like, you know, strange feeling about inadequacy that I honestly didn't even identify with.

And I did not find a use a greater use for that feeling in my life. So I was like, I would like to not feel like this. And so I stopped. It didn't make me feel good. And I wasn't sure about it for me as a way to do the only thing I'm sure it works for is for like when I want to tell people that I'm doing a standup show.

That I have a new book or some sort of work. I like it as a bulletin board for that or to and I don't do really like any DMs. So. So I have one with the people who know all about tech and computers and I feel like that's fair. Yeah, well, we're here to be your personal tech support anytime your printer breaks.

And I just want to say because I think, you know, I'm sort of a hearing in your voice, you know, maybe some like insecurities about your relationship with tech, but I just want to say like there is such wisdom in what you have done. I think one of the hardest things for people to do with the personal technology in their lives is to just have an intentional relationship with it.

And if there is something in your life that is like causing you pain and misery and you got rid of it, like congratulations. That is actually how you win at tech is doing that. Yeah. So we have some listener questions to answer with your help. Yeah. All right. This is our segment, hard questions where we solicit questions or ethical dilemmas from our listeners and try our best to answer them. So Jenny, you have gamely agreed to help us answer some listener questions.

First up, we've got a story from listener Mike Ford about her new pattern. He's seeing at weddings. Hey, hard work. My name is Mike Ford. I live in Wisconsin. I've been a wedding photographer and videographer for 15 years. And I have noticed something that I can't prove, but every single groom is using AI to write their love letters.

And then also for the vows, obviously that too. And it's something we've discussed a lot at our company just among us. Like is it cringe? Is it not? You know, is it inspirational? And I'm telling you that these grooms are not using a inspiration. They are copying it verbatim. Anyways, I actually saw a groom reading it out of the chat GPT browser. We were probably sitting on a bed before their wedding. Wow.

So Mike didn't have a specific question here, but I think there's a lot to unpack Jenny. What do you make of the wedding chat GPT industrial complex? Oh my gosh, that really shocked me. I first of all, I love now I'm going to just miss quote him, but I've noticed something that I can't prove is wow. I mean, I think I said that before to pass.

I was listening, I was like, well, if the people they're getting married to don't mind, if they're just like, hey, Justin, don't just, you know, show up and have nothing just have something just have something to say in front of my dad and my stepmom or whatever it's like, okay, fine.

If that's what's fine with everyone, whatever it's your wedding, you know, that's fine. But oh, how absolutely terrible if the pride thinks because you know, I don't know like when you when you're getting married and I'm not an expert, but I've done it two times.

And one thing that I like about getting married and that my husband did very well is that I was like, you know, this will be the moment when he'll show his his heart and like, you know, to our community and to me, and that is a special all come me, you know, and that magic of honesty and love and romance and ceremony. And so that if you think that that's coming from a human, but in fact, it's coming from and you know, whatever an AI being. Yeah, whatever is right.

What do you think that do you think that a, this is unethical for grooms to be doing this and B that Mike should do something about it.

Oh, wow. Here's my perspective on this. I think it is fine to use Chatshipy T2 right the first draft of your vows, right. Most people that are getting married for the first time, they don't even know what it is supposed to mean, you know, maybe they've been to a few weddings and they have some vague sense of what it's like, but they want to get some ideas of like what are kind of the main points that I want to hit.

I don't have any problem with that. You know, most people are terrified of public speaking. It's a very scary moment to stand up and for all your friends and family do that. So I'm sympathetic to the grooms, but what I will say is you should write a second draft. You should go through and you should say, do I do I love anything specific about my fiance and like if so, say that I think that kind of squares the circle, you'll have your good vows.

You got through it with some assistance, which is fine and Mike can stand down and he doesn't have to, you know, I think my red flag here is less about the use of chat. GPT and I'll confess that the first time I heard that people were doing this for their wedding vows, my reaction was like, oh, that's horrible. And I think these marriages are doomed. But the more I'm thinking about Mike's question, the thing I actually object to is not the use of chat GPT. It's the lying about it.

If you're nervous about writing your vows and you want to enlist some help from an AI to sort of write your first draft, go with God. Fine. As long as your partner is cool with it. But if you're going to pass that off as your own thing, I just think that sets a precedent of dishonesty that does not portend well for the future of the relationship.

I will agree. And maybe the last thing I was saying is, you know, when I have seen my friends give their own vows watching them do that in a heartfelt way or some of my favorite moments that I've ever seen my friends. So try not to deny yourself that of like actually saying something that you truly believe. Yeah. Yeah. But I've also heard some truly terrible speeches at weddings, which maybe chat GPT would have done a better job of. Good point.

You know, in forest, when he says, I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is. That is enough. Like not, not saying that the people using the chat GPT are not smart. I'm just saying you can quote something and have it, it might be better. Like it's okay if it's not your own words. It's just the lying. I think it's yes. Boy, boy, well, how devastating. How strange. I'm sorry.

I wonder like how many divorce filings that's going to be cited in like irreconcilable differences because I discovered that my wedding vows were written by chat GPT probably more than one. Okay. This next question comes from listener Ben Thiegel and it comes in response to a segment we did a few weeks ago about cultivated meat, essentially meat that is grown from cells in a lab.

Casey Knight tried some cultivated beef in the form of meatballs and we asked this question is lab grown meat ever going to be a viable alternative to our current way of getting meat, which is killing animals. And so in response to this episode, Ben sent in this question. Hey guys, this has been from Minneapolis. A while back, you talked about lab grown meat and it made me realize that someone eventually down the line will probably create lab grown human flesh.

And I'm wondering if you guys think it will be ethical to eat said lab grown human flesh. I do just want to point out though that I have no desire to eat human flesh and I and I recognize that that's exactly what somebody hungry for human flesh would say. But honestly, it just made me think would it be ethical for these people to grow lab grown human flesh and then eat that human flesh. Happy holidays. What a question. Jenny, where do you come down on lab grown human flesh?

He's definitely said hungry for human flesh and kept saying talking about eating it a lot and it does feel like one of those asking for a friend kind of questions. Wow, that just actually completely emptied my mind and I almost forgot the question. I just, you know, when you're just like you start to like just have to tell your legs to don't run away, don't run away. Like you have to stand your seat for the rest of the question.

It's hard for me to think that feel that we should eat that. I don't think that we should. But I don't I don't know. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I guess don't. It's not right. Not right for me. Doesn't feel right. Does it feel is it ethical? That's kind of a confusing way to set that up. It sort of feels like it's not a real question. It's unsettling. Right.

It is unsettling. Yeah. I think look the what we were during our episode that we did about lab grown meat is that it's very expensive to make it. If you're making like human grown flesh like my hope would that would be for some sort of medical use, you know, to like save a life. So the idea that there's just sort of like extras on the counter for snacking. I think this seems very unlikely to me. So any situation where I can imagine lab grown meat laying around.

I actually do think it would be unethical to eat it because I think it hopefully is there to serve some higher purpose. Yeah. So search engine, one of our favorite podcasts posted by PJ vote recently did an episode about cannibalism and address this question. And I've been thinking about it ever since then. And I think I've come down on the permissive side. I would eat the lab grown human flesh. Wait, why? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Something about it.

Well, so I bite my fingernails. So already I am eating some element of my body. So why is it any different? You know, and no humans are harmed in the production of this meat. And you know, I think it could allow people who maybe have a taste for human flesh, which is again, not me. Wait, did you submit this question under the name band? No, I just think I would try it. You know, I'm curious.

All right. Well, I worry that, you know, we have the special guests and we've already taken the show in such a disturbing direction. It's fine. It's fine with me, honestly. Yeah. I'm not shocked at all, but I was on here for 10 minutes and we're already just in the shadows. Welcome to Hartford. Welcome to the human flesh burger. I feel bad for Shania Twain, you know, if she ends up coming on. Yeah. And Shania, if you're listening, please DM us. Yeah. Yeah. Love you. All right.

Let's say that that was probably the worst question that we got. Let's see if the next one is any better. Okay. This next one comes to us all the way from Copenhagen. And for this one, Jenny, we're going to ask you to channel your best parenting advice. Here's our listener. Hello, Hartford. Eda Evans-Gall from Copenhagen here. I have a question for you, actually, too. Now, it's almost Christmas and my son, Ufer, who's nine years old, gave me his wish list.

And there was something on the wish list that I couldn't figure out. It said gaming equipment. And I looked at him and said, Ufer, what do you mean? What kind of gaming equipment? And he looked at me back and then he made this like just slide towards a nearby computer and typed into Google gaming equipment. And I asked him, Ufer, did chat, GBT, write your wish list for Christmas. And he said, with a little smile, not answering the same way as when your teacher says, did you cheat, Ufer?

And he never answered me. Because yes, it did. It did write his wish list for Christmas. So my questions would be number one. Is there an age limit for kids using chat, GBT? And secondly, what kind of gaming equipment should I give him? Any ideas for these two pressing questions? Okay, first of all, has there ever been a greater tonal shift in the history of podcasting than the moon from lab-dramed human flesh consumption to Ufer's Christmas list?

Wow, we're really hitting all the high points here. All right. So Jenny, how do you feel about kids using chat, GBT? It's so sweet in a way, like using it to be like, what should I want? You know, like it's so sweet. It's like wanting to belong, like, you know, you, I, it's not just that I want something for Christmas. I want to want what other kids want. And that's very sweet, but it also does hurt my heart a little bit.

I want you to talk to Ufer about, is there any way that he might just like on his own know what he wants? That is really where I, that's like where I go on this. But generally, like, I don't know, I kids can use the internet for homework and stuff. It's just such a different thing to use chat, GBT. I would be very limited, but I'm kind of like a strict mom on that kind of stuff. My, my daughter is very little. She's like only allowed to watch a screen like once a week and she watches Bluey.

And that's just because I want to watch it. Pretty sure. I love Bluey. I think it is the best of the toddler shows. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I just, I just love it. But the other thing is, yeah, I have no idea what to tell her about what type of gaming equipment to get. Because I've basically played a video like game like four times in my life. And the last one I played was Tekken. Yeah. And it was in, I want to say, 2002. Who was your, who was your character on Tekken?

It was like a big panda. Could that be right? Yeah, great character. Great character. We love her. That was very sensible advice to me. Yes. You know, my, my thought is like, yes, kids can use chat GPT, but like with anything else on the internet, you just want to do a super vision. Right. So technically you're supposed to be 13 or older to use chat GPT. That's their sort of like terms of, of use limit. And if you're under 18, you need your parent or guardian's permission to make an account.

But obviously we know that people are using this stuff much younger than that, including sometimes with their parents permission. So I think it's, I think it's fine to have chat GPT, right? Your Christmas list. I think there's nothing like, you know, particularly. And I agree that it's kind of sweet to want to, you know, get a sense from sort of the collective hive mind of like what a person my age should want.

I will say on this specific issue of whether or not to get Ufa a video game system, I have some personal history with this because I think from about the age, I was like seven or eight until like 14 or 15 every Christmas. I asked my parents for a Sega Genesis and I never got a Sega Genesis. And you know, I still had many wonderful gifts, but they I think correctly intuitive that if I had a Sega Genesis, I would never leave the house again.

And I would never make friends and I would never play sports and I would never do any other activities. And that would become my life. And I think that was probably a wise decision on their part. So, you know, you know, only Iba knows Ufa well enough to know whether he is in danger of becoming that kind of a shut in through video games. But I would just say, you know, tread carefully because I'm glad that my parents restricted my video game playing during my my formative years.

Are you did you have any kind of restrictions on your video games? Yeah, they're you know limited in terms of maybe how many hours a day we could play, but you know, we did play video games. We did love them. And so that leads me to conclude that like, Ufa should get a gaming console for Christmas. I think as a nine year old, the Nintendo Switch is probably going to have the most stuff on it that he's going to enjoy.

So I will look there first, but you can also just get him a little tablet. There's so many cheap little tablets you can get now from Amazon or you can get maybe like a refurbished iPad or something. A lot of games on there and then it is also useful for other stuff. So, you know, you can show them educational videos and you know, whatever else you want to do to raise your child.

So that would be my recommendation for gaming equipment for young Ufa. And of course, we wish you a very many Christmas. All right. Next question comes to us from Alia Daland, who was very persistent. She actually reached out to us multiple times. We see you Alia. Alia has a problem that she wanted some advice about. She did something on Amazon that she is now feeling guilty about.

And we don't have a voice memo for this one, but I'll just read her message. Here's what she said, lightly edited for brevity. She said, quote, I recently bought off brand ink for my printer. The Amazon seller, I bought the ink from, which was new, prime eligible, good reviews, et cetera. Thank me for the purchase and promised $60 worth of Amazon gift cards in exchange for a five star review. I usually recycle these postcards, but this one promised $60 Amazon bucks.

Turns out that is the price of my conscience because I logged on left a five star review and received an Amazon gift code in exchange. So she asks, on the scale of moral repugnance, where does the crime of a fake Amazon review fall? Am I deceiving my fellow shoppers, aiding and abetting some weird internet crime? And where did that money even come from?

So Jenny, we'll start with you. What is your take on whether it is unethical to accept an Amazon gift card in exchange for a disingenuous review? This person feels so bad if they are even thinking of the word repugnant. I mean, that feels really strong. I am at this place right now where I'm just like, I just want to try to, you know, be as forgiving as possible.

You know, just generally, it seems like, yeah, you obviously don't want to do that. So don't do it again because now you found out that you really don't like it. So that's good information. I don't think it's repugnant. It doesn't seem like the most ethical. But I also think that it was printer ink and not like, I don't know a medical device or like.

The car the vaccine. Yeah, you know, like a, like a, a baby pacifier that breaks in half or something like it. No one's really getting hurt. But if you're just going to speak about it as an ethical issue, like, yeah, it's not ethical. If you're really going to do the hard math on that one, but also, oh, come on, give yourself a break.

You're definitely not going to have a related question for you both, which is, do you trust Amazon reviews in the year of our Lord 2023? Like, if you see a product, it has tons of great reviews. Do you think to yourself that must be a good product? Or do you think that must have been gamed in some way? Cause I am now so cynical that I think all Amazon reviews are fake or at least substantial portion of them.

We know that there is a thriving ecosystem of these fake reviews. And so I, you know, I love that Jenny is bringing a holiday spirit of forgiveness to this listener. And I think I think we should extend that. You know, at the same time, you can also ask yourself, like, well, what, what world am I creating when I do that?

The reason that this exists is because Amazon charges all sorts of fees to these sellers who want to be on the platform. And it penalizes them heavily for not having five star reviews. And so they've incentivized this sort of exact behavior.

You know, so our, so our listener wants to know where does money come from? Well, most people don't, you know, most people do throw the postcard away, but enough of them actually go through with it that it is essentially worth it to them to spend the 60 bucks, get the five star review. And now we'll sell more printer ink. And then that affected all that is just that prices go up for all of us because we're essentially paying all these hidden fees and taxes just to like use Amazon.com. So I wish Amazon would do a better job of ferring out these, these reviews. And they would tell you that they're removing millions of fake reviews every year.

Clearly, there's more work to be done. So we'll give you a pass at this time. Well, yeah, but, you know, maybe maybe reconsider in the new year. I never read the reviews. I, I, I just ask my friends about stuff like in real life. And yeah, I guess I just, I'm also not that much of a like a smart shopper. You know, I'm just clicking away on junk. Do you ever, do you ever leave reviews, Jenny? I have not ever left a review. No, but on a restaurant, on a hotel, on anything.

I don't believe so, but when I'm like, you know, on the phone with Verizon, you know, I'm talking to the person about like, is my phone going to work when I go over here? And then at the end, they're like, or, or, you know, or the airline, like, you're like, why are you calling these places? I'm sure you could do it, you know, online. But I always call the people. And they're like, would you stay on for a review? I always do that. Wow. That is super nice.

Well, they asked me to and they're a person. Yeah, my thing is like, do you know, you remember like when, when you learned that like Uber drivers get kicked off the platform, if they get like anything less than like a 4.0 rating or something. And so from that point on, you like only rate people five stars, no matter how horrible they are as a driver, because like, you don't want to like mess up their livelihood, right?

It's like, maybe you like took a couple of wrong turns or something, but I don't want to like punish you by like getting you booted off the platform. So I'll just going to give you five stars. I feel like that is happening with a lot of other categories of thing. Like if I, if I have like a horrible experience at a restaurant, like I'm not leaving them a one star review, because I don't want to tank the whole restaurant. All I wanted for them to do is to like, you know, fix it up a little bit.

I tell you this, I'm so tired of being asked to review things, you know, it's like on DoorDash, I'll order like the same four items every week. And then every week I get a push notification. It's like, how do you like it? Like leave a review. I like my review is that I've ordered it 36 times this year. That is my review. Do with that information what you will, but that's all I have to say about it. Right. Yeah.

We'll be right back. All right. All right. Next question comes to us from a professor. Wow. At a university in Texas. So this is from our listener. I recently exposed 10 of my students for cheating on the midterm exam using chat GPT. Their answers have the exact same bullet point format as chat GPT answers and they contain words that I've never used in class.

So the process was handled centrally at my university. And the final outcome is that seven out of 10 students stood their ground on a three out of 10 confessed. So I'm finding myself in the unfortunate situation of having to give a score of zero to the three students who admitted responsibility and apologized to me. But I cannot penalize the other seven who I'm sure 99% have cheated any thoughts on this.

That's a tough one. So I have some thoughts on this. Okay. And then I want to hear what you guys think of it. All right. I think this is a terrible situation and I hate to call out a listener of you know to this show who has you know who has taken the time to send us a voice memo explaining their problem.

But I think in this case we need to stop trying to accuse people of using chat GPT when we don't know for sure that they have I think this is a big deal in high schools and colleges all over the country right now. There are all these schools that have used these chat GPT detector programs to try to like catch students in the act. We know that these programs do not work.

They have tons and tons of false positives. And imagine being a college student and you have worked really hard on your essay or your paper or your midterm and you turn it in. And what comes back is an accusation that you have plagiarized.

You know if that's true, it's true. Whatever. But if it's false and you are falsely accusing people and by the way these programs, these detector programs falsely accused people all the time, especially it turns out people for whom English is a second language. You are doing that person a deep, deep disservice. And I would say actually inflicting like what could be a trauma on them because being accused of cheating if you have not cheated.

And having that show up on your transcript or result in some disciplinary action from your school is just a really bad thing to go through. But also in this situation, what happens as this listener noted is that you end up punishing the honest students who actually copped to having done this. Meanwhile, the people who are lying about it get away with it. Well, they weren't that honest. They did cheat on the test. She doesn't know that. There's no way that you can tell.

She's the three of them came forward and said they cheat. Three of them came forward and said they cheated. But I just think this is like this is a terrible status quo at schools is to like have teachers trying to like flag which of their students have used chat GPT. It's just not going to work. All right. I want to get Jenny's thoughts on this. In part because soon your child will be in school and maybe we'll want to use chat GPT. And I wonder if you have feelings about that.

Oh my gosh. Well, the first thing that I'm thinking of is like, what about a bummer if as a learner, your options are kind of like either you're so you're stressed or you're something is not happening for you that like you decide to use chat GPT or that you don't care. So you're just like I'm just phoning it and I'm using it either way like that's a bummer because then you won't you won't really get what you're supposed to get from your education.

But in the end, it's like it's hard to understand for me to listening to Kevin. I'm like, yeah, like how much of a job is it like a professor, you know, like a professor at a university is there job to be a disciplinarian and like kind of like it's like a weird new instant

magic straight about like a technology that's freaking everybody out in terms of like, wait, are we actually going to learn is information even going to get in anymore or like are we going to create a society of students that just like are trying to tick stuff off a list and actually don't have much information. They just have like experience of trying to get through and in the end, like it is up to her to be an educator and that's hard enough.

But I guess you can't like with a college student, it's hard to you know, they skip class. Like they're not high. I mean high schoolers skip class cheer talking to like a big door here. It's like in high school obviously everybody's there for every minute. You're not out smoking behind the gym.

Not in high school. I was yeah, nose in the books, but yeah, in in college more hidden the bomb, but I still have to pass. And you know, I was like, my nana Connie is paying for me to go to college if I don't actually like use this. It's you know kind of a shame for all of us isn't it? It's I guess it's up to the students in the end, but they do have this, you know, tantalizing new shortcut that they could use.

It is tantalizing. I have a couple of thoughts, you know, one if you feel bad that you punish these students who were dishonest, but then they were honest, could you offer them some makeup work? Could you say like, look, you were you were straight with me in the end. Here's a makeup. I'm going to let you earn some of these points back as a way of saying, hey, thank you for showing some integrity.

So I would I would suggest suggest that as a first step. The second step is, unfortunately, I do think this listener is going to have to rethink their curriculum going forward. And I realize what a tedious and exhausting and upsetting thing this is to say, but we have talked about on the show all year.

Education is going to have to evolve to adapt to a world in which chat GPT exists and where students can get these programs to spit out very credible essays, right? We've even talked about some potential solutions. You can have students write essays in class. You can design curricula that ask students to use these programs and talk about how they use them as kind of assistant and research assistants and partners.

So I think that will better prepare them for the world that they're going to live in than a world that says absolutely no chat GPT ever. And so I would just suggest to this professor that this might be the time over the winter break to start thinking, okay, how can I involve this curriculum? Great response. Thank you. Thank you.

This next question comes to us from a software engineer in Massachusetts named David and David has a question, Casey, do you want to read any of these by the way? I think you're doing a great I would, but I think you have a very sort of brisk manner about you when you do this. I don't enjoy it. This next question comes to us from a software engineer in Massachusetts named David and David has a question about a tool his company is using that makes him a little uncomfortable.

And he worries that if customers knew that this was being used this tool that it would make them feel uncomfortable to this tool is called session replay and David says it basically allows him to reconstruct and monitor every single thing a customer does when they go to his company's website. Here's David. You can see their mouse movements in real time you can see their keyboard presses. You can see where they scroll and how long they take to do all these things.

You know, I've seen people type out gift messages for things that they're purchasing to loved ones and I've seen them rephrase what they're typing and change the words to craft exactly the right intimate message for their family member. It all just feels a little too much at the same time these tools help us solve problems with our with our website that we would never have been able to solve in the other way.

So I guess my hard problem is I really want to continue using this tool but it makes me very uncomfortable and I got to get your thoughts. Wow. I think a gift message. I mean, I have not maybe maybe to my sisters, you know, you you are such a magnificent woman, you know, keep shining your power out.

Whatever there's there's you know a happy nice and that's a crazy I would never write that I don't even know why I said that that's not what I write but for most of the presence that I send unless it's a baby gift, you know, to my close friends like the draft and there are drafts of messages, you know,

and those little gift messages squares on the, you know, where you can tell it is that are like, hey, Turd, like here's a delivery from the dildo farm, like wrapped in a spark so that, you know, you can eat my shit anyhow. Like your mom's here, she says she likes me more than you, like it's just it's nothing. It's garbage. The idea that somebody would even see that is it's sort of funny but also terrifying and generally, yeah, I'm super freaked out by by that.

I'm very, very freaked out by that. Why do they need that? I guess I guess I guess you could tell me why they need that. That's what well, that's why I like your podcast a lot. They're saying that they need it to improve the website and look when you're when you're designing software, I think that happens a lot is you think you've made something very easy and then you show it to a person they can't make heads or tails of it, right?

And so being able to track every movement on a website might let you say in a sort of automated way, aha, like they're not doing this thing because they actually can't find this, you know, item on the menu bar or something. So I'm like moderately sympathetic to that idea, but I'm a sort of a big believer in the idea that like if you if you wouldn't just tell your customers upfront that you were doing this, you probably shouldn't be doing this. Yes, this is my thing.

Like, yeah, I understand that this tool is creating some value for this company, right? At least ostensibly, that's why they installed it. They don't just like have a surveillance like kink. They do derive some business value out of being able to snoop on their customers like this.

I would just say like is the value that you're getting that getting from that tool greater than the amount of value you would lose if this came to light if your customers knew that you were doing this, would it destroy trust and value in your company to a degree that it actually would dwarf the gains that you would get from using this tool.

And it sounds like from the way this tool is being described by our listener, like it's actually not worth it. Like if you are feeling freaked out about this as an engineer working at this company, it's a safe bet that your customers would feel freaked out about it too. And so I guess my question is like what should David do?

Well, I mean, look, it's very hard as a single employee to be the rabble rouser and to go to your bosses and say like this doesn't feel right. But if he feels comfortable enough, I do think it is worth raising an alarm here and just saying, you know, this doesn't really seem like it is consistent with our values.

And you know, it may be the case that his bosses come back to him and say, you know, tough beans. This is just the way it's going to be around here. And then I think David is going to have to make a choice about whether he wants to work at that company. Unfortunately, I suspect that most tech companies are collecting massive amounts of data often did not a very straightforward way. And so it might be hard to find another job that was more aligned with his values.

But at the very least, I would consider speaking up about this internally. Yeah, there might also be some sort of technical solution. There might be a less invasive way to get similar kinds of information, maybe not what people are writing in their gift messages, but, you know, tracking where people's mouths are moving like there might be a way to get some of the same information in a way that was less creepy. Yeah, ask chat to you too.

You know how the game like floor, the like the floor is lava, the floor is lobby. I have to go from one location to the other. Like now when I'm on any website, I'm just I'm going to be so just like click that click that in your out. You know, like I'm going to just be so careful. The internet is lava. Yeah, the internet is lava. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

And then the game like the end of the day. All right, this next question comes to us from a listener who works as a male carrier for the postal service named charred.

Charred has some concerns about how technology that tracks movement might be used against them or against male carriers someday. Charred writes quote, it's been on my mind that the androids based scanners we are required to use as part of our daily worker teens are capable of many things, including the GPS monitoring week carriers know of.

But potentially they might one day monitor my stride coordination and other biometric data and report these out to management. It strikes me as an ethical quandary, but also as a hard reality of the kind of work I do. Are there any restrictions you're aware of on companies monitoring or collecting this kind of data. And if not, should I be asking my union and asking my legislators to make banning its collection of priority. What do you both think what if I knew that answer about like what.

Yeah, yeah, I know I know exactly like you know this the answer to the first part of your question about about what they're allowed to do. Sorry, but no, I was just making a joke. I feel like someone should answer that before I do because it really has serious questions and it's fairly scary. You know, like that's one of these questions that's like in the future, you know, makes you think that like pre what is the minority report you know my

or you were like, yes, the precox, yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway, the precox in the milk baths. I have no idea what I'm talking about. You guys should go. I think you're raising a great point, which is this question points us toward a future of precox and milk baths. Totally.

Seriously, you know, yeah, yeah. Well, I would just also add like this is not a hypothetical future. Amazon several years ago started installing AI powered cameras in a lot of their delivery vans, which tracked not only like how fast the vans were going and whether they were breaking any traffic laws, but also like our drivers fiddling with the radio.

Are they distracted or they drinking coffee and that would actually give them scores based on their ratings, which were used in determining like who got bonuses and who didn't. So a lot of Amazon drivers hated this. Some of them actually quit or threatened to quit over it. And I think this is absolutely a fair thing to take up with the union.

Yes, I totally agree. You know, we we in an interesting way like this question and the last question are linked because one of the unfortunate aspects of the progress in technology over the past 10 years is that surveillance of every kind has just gotten way easier. And we see over and over again that when people want to surveil something, they just start doing it and they trust that nobody is going to rise up and say anything about it.

So that's just kind of like a trend that I'm worried about in general. When I would say when it comes to this kind of workplace surveillance, I think the rule, the rule here should be that if the CEO of the company will not agree to this kind of surveillance for themselves, then they should not subject the workers to it.

If the CEO of Amazon wants to have an AI powered camera on him at all times while he is just sort of going through his work day and it issues a little report that gets like reviewed by the board, then he can start talking about putting AI cameras on all of the delivery vans until then I don't want to hear about it. I love that. I like that a lot. I really do. That feels really good to me. Yeah.

Yeah. And of course, because what would happen if we did that? We just wouldn't have that much surveillance because rich and powerful people don't want to be surveilled and they're taking for granted that they'll be able to get away with surveilling the last powerful.

And we just don't want that dynamic. Yeah. I really like I do hate this area of AI. I sometimes call this boss wear. There's like this whole suite of surveillance technology that is just used to like make sure people aren't like leaving their desks for like long lunch breaks and stuff. And like I just it just boils my blood like why are you using this stuff on your own workers if you don't trust them then don't hire them lock it off.

Yeah, it doesn't feel good. And you know what is the weird through line between like whatever whether it's like lab made meat or this boss wear as you say it's like there's just this new era of like uncomfortable areas that we didn't think we would be in because humans like either it just like breaks social norms.

You know, so we don't do it like we don't go into these areas. We don't like ask people how many times did you change the radio while you were driving your mail truck today because it's just rude. And like if their production is like if they're doing their job in a way that is is working it's just not appropriate.

And it's it's so demeaning and terrible and like there are all these sort of like relational norms that we used to have that now we have these like new shadow areas that we can go in like on Instagram you can like look at a picture of your like you know friends cousin and just like stare at like you know your friends cousin and their exercise clothes but like in life if like my husband came into the room and I was holding the physical picture of like friends cousin in their

side. It sounds like something like that. I'm just going to put that out. You know what it is actually it's a to be so honest it is a I think about this all the time because I just I want to know how like what are the norms of how we're all behaving you know like what are the general rules and I thought it would make a really good standup joke and I did it and you know it may just a lot of people angry that they don't want to hear about you know whether or not it's okay to do whatever

they're doing and I don't actually mean to judge anyone I just mean to be like you know we're all acting kind of differently right right you know like isn't that noticeable and like can we discuss it but actually it's it's very sensitive it's like really I think it's actually even sensitive for me to say like yeah I don't really use my I don't go on my social media anymore except post for work like even that will make people mad it's it's a strange drug we're all touching here.

It it well it's I mean it's almost sort of like telling someone that you don't drink right like people immediately sort of get very defensive right because it feels like a commentary on them and of course it isn't but people receive it that way. Okay this next one is a little out there so maybe like this one is a little out there the cannibalism material earlier yeah let's end this news.

Let's get let's get girls come on you guys. Fair point this one this one I would say is just a little less grounded in reality so maybe like take a little micro dose or something and we'll dive into this one I'm showing my mushroom capsule right now I'm already there. This one is from a listener who says they synthesize their own identity and they now worry they might be losing their sense.

Oh boy. They are hard for you I'm Fabian I confirm it and I have synthesized my own identity have a year ago and I gave them the name of Cynthiaola. To give you some context I'm an animator who works with generative eye and I'm making an animated film about and with generative eye. The story would be no word where everyone has an AI clone so I thought why not trying it on my own skin to better understand the problems that are right from that.

Basically I just trained a stable fusion model on myself with a hundred photos. As this month's past I saw myself turn into different genres ethnicity ages inserted in all sorts of media like sitcoms music videos and so on. My visual identity has become totally fluid into this media landscape and my identity has been boiled down into an icon and a symbol. Now when I talk with friends they sometimes refer to me as Cynthiaola.

It feels kind of as if Cynthiaola would be a celebrity of sorts since they appear in so much different media. It even occurs to me sometimes that when I look into the mirror I see Cynthiaola before I see Fabian. Cynthiaola has become this alter regal of me that is sort of 120% of me. So the hard question I would like you to ask is am I doing my own identity by creating and sharing so much content of my synthetic self online.

Do you believe that I'm planting the seeds for myself to be lost in a sea of replicas that pretend to be me losing my own self? Am I becoming Cynthiaola and if so is that a bad thing? Thank you so much for listening to this. Okay I love this question actually. I love this question. It was very beautiful. And I would just say like that even though he is using a new technology to explore his identity this way, this sort of thing is not rock stars have been doing this for a long time right.

The other person he made me think of is Cindy Sherman you know the famous photographer and Cindy's whole thing is just taking all kinds of self purchase of her but just in every incarnation of herself. But looking like every type of profession every type of person right and she's been playing with that for many years and creating this amazing art of it. I've never interviewed her so I don't know what that sort of play has done with her own relationship.

I'm sure she'd have some really interesting things to say about it but in general like can or should you use technology to explore your own identity? Absolutely yes. I know Jenny what do you think? I absolutely loved the way that it's Fabian right. Yeah it was just like describing their perspective but yeah I don't think there's anything wrong with it and I think it's really cool to play as much as you can.

And it can feel dangerous too because you're like what if there's a version of this that honestly just seems superior to me maybe this what was the name of. Cynthia Ola. Cynthia Ola which is a beautiful name so maybe yeah maybe Cynthia Ola just seems cooler yeah like you know but it is it's also a lovely way to return to like your original self and see what's there.

I don't know I'm kind of into the whole thing I can see why it's scary too but that also doesn't make me not into it and clearly there's a lot of introspection and honestly if if I could do anything with this message that we just heard. I would like put it at like the start of the like use it as a creative prompt.

Yeah. For like it's just like an entire film and make that voice over over the opening credits like over black you just hear this I don't know I'll see you guys that you know Toronto or tell your right. 20 years if I ever actually you know I'm able to do this I loved it.

And it also like you are a great person to answer this question I think because you are a performer and are used to like assuming different identities in different spaces and some people I'm sure you know know you better for one role than another and maybe you even get people coming up to you saying like oh it's Marcel the shell or something like that so like.

Do you have any perspective on on that kind of identity play with respect to AI like are you tempted at all to make versions of yourself or your characters in AI that maybe then you would sort of be able to experiment with. I definitely already get enough of like that strange juxtaposition from just what I do and and no I mean this is not going to shock you but no I'm not tempted to make AI.

Versions of myself or my work but I do experience a lot of times like there's some characters I've played like Mona Lisa Sapperstein who's like they define her as the worst person on earth and yeah a lot of I think like a lot of people come up to me and say they like that character and in those moments I feel compelled to subtly prove that I'm not like her at all.

And then you know with Marcel the shell it's it has been confusing to me over the years sometimes because he is the kind of like closest portrait I feel like I could make of my own psyche and my own like personality when it works the best it just came out as like a male shell with no age and.

And but I do think like Marcel is a lot more confident than me for example and and so there are some of them people are like your Marcel the shell there's like a tiny just a teeny tiny thing like a pain of sadness from like not yet like I'm not you know I'm not I am using aspirational personality but yeah I like to just keep it in the zones that it's in right now.

Have you known other actors that will speak about losing themselves in roles and so you know worrying that they've gone too far and they they can't come back to a place that they went when they stepped into the the shoes of a challenging character yeah I certainly have I think maybe I just haven't had that role yet but I definitely have known actors like especially if they're playing characters that in one way or another are connected to their own like family or cultural trauma or personal trauma that.

That can obviously be really really hard but you know for me my work is so various and play a lot of cartoon animals too so that's a real you know real buffer for me is a real comfort zone in terms of like that's just absorbs stress and it's not stressful but yeah.

Well I'm not so kind of the note that I wanted to end this question on is like I think you better than almost any would could just speak to the joy of exploring your identity by playing different character like my senses you really enjoy this I love it and I and I loved being Mona Lisa because she's so horrible and she has only like sort of you know 100 miles per hour that's all she can do and she has no remorse and I actually can overthink things and I'm a big like.

Consider this consider that person and it really really ruins me to feel like I might have hurt someone's feeling so it's a wonderful sort of like. Valve to open up to just be totally horrible and it does do something for me you know it's like it feels good to be able to be that person I was actually weirdly just discussing this yesterday yeah yeah.

Alright so next question comes from a listener who wants to remain anonymous this listener did not send a voice memo but wrote in this is another one of these asking for a friend questions but they literally said asking for a friend and their question is is it ethical to watch a generated porn. What say you well there's there's just sort of some things you would want to know is like a follow up question right is like what how is this a generated porn created.

Was was this language model trained on people who consented to be in the videos that they were in. Did they consent to having their videos used as part of this model my guess is that anything that exists today the answer to those questions is going to be no it enough cases that I would be real real careful about which a generated porn I was consuming at the moment.

Yeah I mean there's also just a lot of like porn from before you know if you need it yeah just it's not you know like school call it yeah you can just find it like with the you know the performers from before there's still they're doing it they're doing it right now that you know so it's. Luckily yeah I mean they are they're doing it right now and so it's yeah at least there's not going to be a shortage but yeah Casey seems really like I agree.

And he seems right to me yeah no here here are some things I would say sort of in the future you know there are some forms of like king play that are quite intense and or you know maybe even involve violence and like where the performers might be at some risk whether it's like a physical risk or an emotional risk if we could like offload that risk to software so that like no one was harmed in the in the making of these scenes that might be a good thing so I don't want to for close forever the prospect that this could.

Like have some societal value but I think it's going to be a ways for we get there. Yeah I think the question around consent is is the right one to ask as of now like a lot of the stuff you you know hear about is like people being worried that their images are going to be used without consent turned into deep fakes put on the internet this is something that I know regulators and lawmakers are very worried about and it's a real issue.

Or I also think there's going to be a lot of celebrities who end up you know maybe they've never done a nude scene in a movie but all the sudden they have all these videos of them you know appearing to be naked online that were generated by AI and so you know that kind of thing I think the answer to is it ethical to watch AI generated porn I would say you know I don't see any reason it's inherently unethical but I also think it touches on a lot of very important things.

It touches on a lot of very sensitive issues in areas where you could behave on ethics one thing about porn always touching sensitive issues that's right. A lot of times that's the best part of it sorry.

I'm sorry I'm so sorry I asked to come under podcast and they said that I know this is the word the idea that I thought it come on this podcast that's beloved to me and I just think so nervous the entire time it's so crazy and then that somehow it would take a turn into me saying something gross when I listen to it every week and I think this podcast makes me so happy I feel so welcome I love listening to these friends they make each other

laugh so hard there's great information and then we're here and then I say something and it's it's you know it's gross and I'm so sorry. It was literally perfect. No it was perfect. I mean you're wonderful. So okay last question this one comes to us from a listener named Ren Kulp who essentially asks hey can I be a member of society in the future if I don't always want to be on the internet. That's that's where I'm at. Oh I'm sorry. Sorry. Let's hear the question.

Yeah. Hey guys my name is Ren I'm from Los Angeles my question is I in the future would love to be on the internet less like less social media presence less availability you know I don't need other people knowing every inch of my life. But I worry sometimes that if I scale back that if I leave the internet that if I kind of don't check on it anymore that the culture might pass me by that I might all of a sudden be the old guy in the room that.

I might not be as up to date on the happenings of the world. If I were not on the internet all the time and so I just wondered do you think it's possible to live and be informed and engaged in the aspects of life in the future without the internet. Thanks. I feel that. Yeah I'll speak to that Jenny.

I think there are always levels of like are you on the cutting edge of what the new language is like do you know all the new songs do you know like where fashion is you know like there's always going to be. People who want to be at the front of the line sort of and like have the best view of what's changing and what's the newest I think there's a middle ground I also think it's like a really cool.

I think it's a personal like personal work to figure out like how important it is is it to you not to be included but to like know the newest thing like why do you need that and how important is it to you and I don't mean it in a judge you way like why do you need that but it's a it's a good question I asked myself that I was watching the movie dumb money last night.

I've seen it I loved it I loved it so much and one of the things that really got me was that I was like I don't understand how the people are communicating with each other like I was just completely floored by how funny everyone was and how sassy like everyone seemed so cool and I was like wow that really has passed me by I'm not there anymore and I think there will be a

layer of like communication and culture and that kind of style like communication style and and like visual style like graphic like I was like looking at the graphics and the way people were like making little videos and I just was like I am not on the internet I've never seen any of this.

Wow, but I also think that the rest of the world is still there and there won't be this like terrible loneliness or shut out if that is what happened and I do kind of live that I really do I I also like use my social media so that people can know and I make my work because even though sometimes I'm in like larger projects I'm actually kind of like a rather like I feel like my performances are rather niche and I like need to let people know when they're happening and and

and I think there's a middle ground and I think it's really worth it to step off if that feels right for you it doesn't have to be a judgmental thing it could just be a happy sort of like loosening. Yeah, I love I mean again this goes back to feel comfortable managing your relationship with technology you want to take a step back from something take a step back from something you know most people do not perform on the internet for money it so happens at the three people making this podcast.

But like most people are not like that and that's okay I think the one thing that I would say though is don't disengage completely like we do need engaged citizens in this moment that's going to mean getting the news and getting the news in 2023 and 2024 is going to mean going online to get it you know there were the I read a couple stories after a Trump one where people would just sort of like move to a secluded area and we're just basically like wake me up in four years and would like go to extraordinary lengths to never hear about anything.

That was happening that is not a recipe for the survival of democracy okay so if you need to take a step back because you you're upset by what's on the news certainly we've all felt that I can totally respect that but don't you know keep keep a keep at least a little bit engaged.

Yeah, I think the this is something that I think about a lot because I've always been a person who likes to know about things like the minute they happen we're journalists we like to be up to speed but also like I was always the person like explaining the new meme at the dinner party or like

you know telling people what this you know piece of slang that the teens were saying on tiktok is and like as I've gotten older that has become less possible for me because I just don't like have as much time to spend scouring the deepest recesses of the internet anymore.

And so I just don't know stuff and there's been a surprising amount of like joy and freedom in that like I don't have to know about things the minute they happen some if it's important somebody will tell me or I'll see it a day later and it's not the end of the world.

So I would just say like like be open rent to the possibility that you might actually be happier and actually more informed if you sort of allow a little time to pass between when something happens and when you hear about it or see it. Yeah, well said. All right, that's it for our hard questions Jenny do you have any questions for us.

Oh my gosh, I guess and I don't know if it's like I don't know if you'll want to answer this and and you talk about it a little bit or sometimes you guys like joke but like are there ever days when you're like me and you are really really scared that it seems that the people who are making the AI don't. We let they don't know like how it works and I know you've discussed that a bit but and maybe I have missed it and you have given that but yeah is there.

Are there ever days where you where you feel a bit bleak about it Kevin.

Yeah, I mean I. You know we've talked about this on the show but I sort of went through a period this year where I was feeling very bleak not just sort of in the existential like we're all going to die scenario but like you know I'm a creative person I write words for a living and I was sort of having I don't know you could call it like a mini existential crisis after chat GPT came out and it was like oh wait a minute is this thing that I am doing that I've been doing my whole career.

Like am I obsolete essentially and you know I've come to a better place over the course of the last year or so on on that I now like I don't feel like I or we are obsolete I don't necessarily think we're all going to die.

And so I and I found that my own the thing that I can do during the periods when I am feeling bleak that helps me is just to to try something new with the technology like if I'm feeling scared about AI like I'll go draw picture with AI or I'll go like you know use it to to solve some like

esoteric you know problem that I'm having or teach myself something and and then that that like just knowing that the technology can be used for that kind of good stuff as well as the scary stuff just helps me balance out my own perspective I don't know Casey how do you feel like this I like that I mean yes I also absolutely feel those moments of fear I think that there are some really good

futures that are possible and I think there's some really scary and bad futures that are possible and I think it's uncomfortably close to a coin flip as to like which world we wind up living it and that's scary right I wish I could just kind of relax knowing that it was all going to be okay but like I don't feel that way

but that's like why I'm a journalist I want to try to understand this stuff better I want to explain it to other people I want other people who are in positions to act to act I want people are just like citizens of this country to vote right and I just want to believe that if we do those things we make the good futures much

much more clear and that's how I just kind of manage the the fears day to day that's really nice to know and I guess like thinking about it I'm like one of the reasons why I started listening to your podcast was because I don't know anything about this area I've been sort of like in rejection of it but also because I'm really afraid of it and it would be better to hear like human beings with good personalities talk about something that makes me a bit uncomfortable and that I do feel like I'm

really comfortable and that I do feel separate from because the gap will close a bit and I will be involved I'll like be aware of discussions and I think that is really I know for me it's been worth a lot

a lot that means so much to us honestly honestly like we started this show just because we we are so fascinated by the stuff we wanted to share it with other people and not just because it was interesting in an intellectual way but because we think it's important to whatever world we wind up living in totally

and I would just say like Casey the one thing that I'll disagree with you on is like this is not a coin flip because a coin flip involves that it's total luck and as we've said in the show before as I continue to believe like we are in control of this technology and all technology we build it we deploy it we make rules about it like it is not purely a passive role that we have in deciding how the future goes and a lot of how the future goes will depend on the decisions that people in the world

in positions of authority but also just people who use this stuff and have a voice and a platform feel about it and what they decide to speak up about very well said all right Jenny it has been the dream of our lives that you are here if people want to know what you are up to next should they follow you on Instagram or where would you like to send them well actually that is true they should follow me on Instagram because I do post about when my new work is coming out

and I'm about to announce a couple of things that I am truly thrilled about I can't do it yet but I will soon and so I know sorry but I do I it will be there and so yeah that's a good place yeah because I don't I don't have a Twitter or X anymore yeah and it is Jenny slate on Instagram so super easy to find it certainly is I just want to say one more thing to you

Jenny before you go and it's actually something that you once said to your dear sister you are a magnificent woman keep shining your power very well said really good brother before we go Casey I have a special surprise for you oh boy do you remember last year we sang a special holiday song I do remember that and it was we let chat GPT writer and it was to the tune of jingle bells and it was all about all the tech news that we covered in 2022

is really fun bit was really fun I decided we should repeat it this year but instead of having chat GPT writer I went ahead and wrote us a holiday song oh my goodness like you wrote yourself I did okay okay so this is the lyrics to our holiday song okay we're going to sing it together wonder you ready yes okay so this is to the tune of the 12 days

of Christmas okay and it's called hard fork and Christmas and we have a track that's going to come in momentarily and then you and I are going to sing this together now are we alternated or we have to we're singing together okay okay you're singing voice warmed up

no on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me four Google bars three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me

six metal losses seven three four Google cards three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me six metal losses seven four Google cards three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me seven robot taxi six metal losses seven

three four Google bars three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me eight blue sky invite seven robot taxi six metal losses seven four Google bars three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me nine deep fake scandals eight blue sky invite seven robot taxi six metal losses seven

four Google bars three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me ten board six metal losses seven four Google bars three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me eleven VR headsets ten four

four Google bars three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me twelve world coin or twelve VR headsets ten four four dramas nine deep fake scandals eight blue sky invite seven robot taxi six metal losses seven four Google bars three cyber trucks to GPUs and a board a pen F T on a hard fork and Christmas my true love gave to me eight blue sky

happy holidays, everybody happy holidays, everyone do they keep data on the most skipped parts of podcasts because I think we might just set a new record I think we actually just got ourselves a bad for every major podcasting platform, we had a good run yeah see you next year see you next year hard fork is produced by Davis Land and Rachel Cohn we had helped this week from Kate LaPresti

we're edited by Jen Poehont this episode was fact-checked by Caitlin Love today's show was engineered by Corey Shrepple original music by Diane Wong Rowan Nemisto and Dan Powell our audience editor is Nell Galaglie video production by Ryan Manning and Dylan Ferguson by the way if you don't already subscribe you can check us out on youtube at youtube.com slash hard fork

special thanks to Paul Assumin, Kuwing Tim and Jeffrey Miranda as always you can email us at hard fork at NY Times dot com happy holidays see you next year