Hard Fork Live, Part 1: Sam Altman and Brad Lightcap of OpenAI

This podcast is supported by IBM. Test, test, check one, two. You know you need unique New York. You know you need unique New York. Does that sound all right? Ah, that's better. You can always tell something's missing when you get isolated results like AI that's only right for one of your systems. Get AI that can work across your data and applications. Learn more at ibm.com. The AI built for business. IBM.

A little behind the scenes. So we're getting ready to go on. And if you were at the live show, you know that the show started with a marching band coming in that Kevin and I were leading. Kevin and I were marching down different staircases trailed by a band of marching musicians. And so Kevin was sort of...

you know loaded into his position and I went down to the next door with my three musicians and I go to open the door and then of course it's locked and they're already playing the cold open for the show we have a few seconds left and I'm like frantically trying to wave someone from the SF Jazz Center and he runs up with his

keys. But fortunately, everything worked out. The music started on time. And yeah, that was that. I'm so glad. That was a near miss. I would have had to go out and march the band in myself. Yeah. It's always interesting to me when they lock the audience into the theater. I wasn't sure.

Exactly what was happening there. Release the bees! Look, when you do a two-hour podcast taping, some people are going to try to leave, and you're going to want to have a plan for that. And we had a plan! And the plan was you can't leave. The best audience is a captive audience. Absolutely.

I'm Kevin Roos, a tech columnist at the New York Times. I'm Casey Newt from Platformer. And this is Hard Fork. This week, it's Hard Fork Live. You'll hear our first ever podcast taping in front of a live audience in San Francisco. We've got a special appearance from San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lewis. and the conversation that had everyone talking this week. It's our extended interview with OpenAI CEO Sam Altman and COO Brad Lightcap. Got a little spicy.

Well, Casey, Hard Fork Live is in the books. How are you feeling? Are you recovered? I am floating. I think everyone should have the experience of starting a podcast and then having 700 people come to watch it. It really makes you feel good.

Yeah, we had such a great time. Thank you to everyone who came out. We had a packed house. And I got to say, it was so much fun. It was so much fun. And, you know, we had a cocktail hour after we got to meet everybody and take selfies. And I was meeting folks who had flown.

down from seattle who had flown in from new york we had one guest who came in from switzerland so i mean the resources that people put into coming to hanging out with us it just meant so much to us yeah it was like people would tell me that they flew in from some other place and i would think like really

You're like, do you have like a conference here this week? Or what actually brought you here? Is it like a restaurant you wanted to go to? No, but people were so lovely. And we got to meet and talk with so many of our wonderful listeners after the show. And really fun experience.

We also got to have some really great conversations on stage. Yes. So for those people who couldn't make it, the great news is that we recorded the entire show and we're going to be bringing it to you on the podcast in two parts.

Half of it we're going to post in this week's episode, and the other half we'll post in next week's episode. And if you can't wait and you want to watch the full thing right now, you can go over to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash hardfork, and find the full show there. And let's say there's probably never been a better Hard Fork episode to watch on YouTube than this one because it was visual as heck. Yes, yes. It was visual. There were costume changes. There were props.

We took our pants off. More than once. Yes. So we can't wait to bring you snippets from the show this week and next. And in the meantime, we're going to take a little vacation.

Yeah, Kevin, it's been a great six months, but, you know, a couple times a year we like to shut down the operation and give everybody a chance to rest, and now is that moment. So thanks again. We hope you enjoy excerpts from Hard Fork Live this week and next, and we will have a special episode of a different show coming the week.

after that. We'll be back to our normal programming on July 18th. See you then. Have a great summer. Well, have a good few weeks and then we'll be back for most of the summer. That's true. Yeah. Early summer. Early summer. Enjoy stone fruit season. Bye.

I'm Kevin Roos, a tech columnist at the New York Times. I'm Casey Noon from Platformer. And this is Hard Fork Live! Oh my goodness. Wow. Should we take off our bandwader jackets? Let's take off the jackets. Okay. Give us a second. They've served their purpose. It's very hot. That's right. These are Amazon's finest. Yeah. Can I... Here. Can I leave this with you?

Thank you. Thank you. Will you guard this with your life? With your life. Yes. Maybe just... Oh, the baton, too, probably. The ribbon, yeah. I don't think we'll do that for our interviews. Tripping hazard. There you go. Thank you. Wow. Thank you to Brass Animals. That's the band you just heard. They're incredible. We love Brass Animals. They will be back later. And thank you all for coming. What a surreal thing this is. I mean, we record this podcast in a booth that's about two feet by two feet.

And we just send it out there, and we think people listen, and we hope that people listen, but it's really surreal to see it all in person. Yeah, it's so much fun to have all the energy in this building. We've been talking as the hours have been counting down to this. In 2021...

Kevin and I just started texting each other all the time. We felt like there was one era of tech that was ending and another that was about to begin. And we just wanted to talk about it to a bunch of people. And it's a really long way from there.

to this moment right now. Yeah, and one of the questions I get asked most frequently is what is a hard fork? Casey, what is a hard fork? Okay, so something a little embarrassing about Kevin and I is that we had a crypto phase. It happens. It happens. Some people go goth. Yeah.

Talk to your teens about crypto. And at the time, we thought, well, you know, it's 2021. Our show will probably be about crypto for the rest of time. Hard fork is a really important concept in crypto. Let's build a show around it. Yes. But we're so excited for tonight. And Casey, you look great, by the way. Oh, thank you. Doesn't you look great? Kevin! Very nice of you. Now, a couple weeks ago, you told me you were getting a new outfit for this show, and I thought...

Shit, I have to get a new outfit too. So I went on a little bit of an adventure trying to figure out what to wear tonight. And as I do, and I'm in times of crisis, I turn to AI. So... I made a little slideshow about my adventure. I hope it's okay if I show up. Okay, great, yes. Yeah, I love a slideshow. You know that. So I started with ChatGPT, where I put in the prompt, give me some ideas. For a glow-up, I said...

Do not change my face. Just give me a glow up. Make me look a little better. ChatGPT, with its infinite wisdom, came back with this. Okay. Very stylish, but as you'll notice if you look closely, not me. Can I just ask, why did you choose the angle of the floor looking up at you? I don't know. It was in the office. Okay, then I got another example, and it said... That? Okay.

Great hoodie, still not me. Very cool hoodie. One more example I asked for. It put me in a nicer room, but again, if you zoom in, not my face. So ChatGPT really saw my request for a glow-up and said, I can't help you there. We're going to need to involve plastic surgery. Yeah, the tech is only so powerful at this moment. So then I thought, okay, maybe it's just ChatGPT. Maybe Gemini will do a better job. So I said to Gemini, the same prompt. Don't change my face.

Gem and I said, what if you looked like David Beckham? That would be good. But I didn't give up there. because there's an app out there called Doji. It's sort of like a high fashion thing where you can sort of scan your body and your face and it'll kind of render this 3D image of you and then tell you what to wear. So I put my photos into Doji.

and gave it these photos, and I said, create my likeness and tell me what to wear, and so it came back with a suggestion that looked like this. Thanks, Doji. What do you think? Like, I would have worn that. Yeah, I mean, you could pull that off. I'm not sure I could.

Okay, so having failed at having AI dress me for tonight, I did what every straight man does in times of distress. I went to Uniqlo, so that's what I'm doing tonight. That's a good job. Smart man. Smart man. Well, I think it turned out great, Kevin. Thank you.

And we have a really great show for you. I want to say, you guys sold out this building before we announced a guest. So I want to say thank you for that. Thank you for trusting us. And we wanted to reward your trust in us with a really special show. And before we get started in Grand Hard Fork tradition, we should do our disclosures because we're going to be talking a little bit about AI tonight. So Casey, you want to take it away? Who's excited to hear the disclosures?

Amazing. Well, I'm proud to say my boyfriend works in Anthropic. He may even be here tonight. Love you, sweetheart. And I work for the New York Times Company, which is suing open AI and Microsoft for copyright violations alleged to the... training of large language models. Did I get that right? Yeah, period. Well, you know, the last thing I would say before we get started, Kevin, is it's also just a dream

to be doing the show here in San Francisco. San Francisco is my home. It's where we make the show every week. It's where so many of the changes we talk about every week are happening. You know, if I have any regrets, it's just I feel like...

San Francisco has been changing a lot all around us, and we've been so heads down, it's kind of hard to keep track of all the changes. Yeah, it's a really good point. And if I could change one thing about tonight, I think we should have invited someone with a little bit of relevant expertise here, someone who...

really understand San Francisco politics, who would that be? Kevin, I told you to put the door on Do Not Disturb. Let's see who it is. Who's out the door? It's the mayor of San Francisco. Hi. How are you? Nice to meet you. Thanks for coming. Oh, my goodness. Please have a seat. What a fun surprise. Thanks for stopping by, Mr. Mayor. Thanks for having me. Thanks for bringing everybody to San Francisco. Absolutely. I think they're happy to be here. Are you happy to be here?

Well, you know, since you're here, let's toss a couple of questions at you. You've been in office for just about six months now. And the tech community, I would say, has generally been very supportive of what you're doing. And you've even formed a council of tech advisors that includes our guest from later tonight. Sam Altman. So what kind of advice are they giving you, and are you taking it? Well, we...

Sam was on our transition committee, and now we have something that we started called the Partnership for San Francisco, where we have leaders from across business and arts and culture giving us advice and helping to... you know cheerlead for our city uh you all are seeing the revolution happening uh if there's no better place in the world in terms of an ecosystem than san francisco and there was a lot of talk uh

a number of years about how San Francisco was done. That was a bad bet. As everybody knows, I mean, the guests that you have tonight, you'd have to fly them in. They're living right here in San Francisco. It's all happening right here. Like, you know, you talked about Anthropic. You got Dario. You got OpenAI. You got Salesforce. You got Databricks. I mean...

Cities across the globe would die to have one of those companies. And they're all home-based right here in San Francisco. So I'm talking to them. I'm talking to arts and culture leaders, and we're doing everything in our power to create the conditions for success, and we're off to a good start. Now, we're going to be talking a lot about AI tonight. I'm curious, is AI helping you in your job?

City Hall. We are absolutely talking to all the companies saying, how can we... get their help on synthesizing all the data that comes in we have 58 different departments at city hall and they don't always talk to each other and so we have great

intellectual horsepower here. We got great universities. We got these great companies and we are engaging with them and they're, they are already starting to help and you'll see more in the coming years. I feel like governments don't have a reputation always for having state of the art technology. Is there anything you wish that you had that you don't have or that the sort of tech could do for citizens here that it can't yet? Well, I think just...

Making sure that we're crunching the data. We have over 34,000 city employees and getting them to talk to each other, understand what they're going through. I'll tell you a quick story. There were not. staff meetings going on between our large agencies. And I instituted something every Tuesday morning. So this morning, 9 a.m., we had...

The 20 large agencies, they get around the table. This is not tech. This is old school. But it starts with old school. Yeah, this technology is called the table. Yes. That is right. They really snap. But by the way... Tech doesn't work if you don't communicate with each other. That's why I think everybody's got to be back in the office. A lot of these AI companies, they're in the office five, six days a week. I went to open AI's new office.

They are in the office because they know it doesn't work unless you're communicating. And so our department heads are meeting with each other once a week. Gaining knowledge from each other seeing how they can help each other And the tech then follows that and so we're hoping to lean in with all these great companies now I have to ask you mayor about your social media presence you are

You are very active on short-form video apps such as Instagram Reels and TikTok. You post more Instagram Reels than a Gen Z clout chaser. And... And honestly, they're pretty good. I would say grading on the curve of politicians, they're great. And I'm curious, like, who does your social media? What's the strategy there? Is it working? I was told there was a review of my Instagram in the local in the Chronicle, and it said that I had not yet made the camera my lover.

So, I have work to do. That's not OnlyFans. So, listen, I'm having fun with it. We know there's so much noise out there. breakthrough and to communicate with people like you you all do so well with your show uh we felt like we had to reach people directly and it is taking off You all can check it out and you can learn what it's like to be mayor and to see all the small businesses that are amazing in San Francisco, the restaurants, the bars. I just.

i just went in honor of pride i just stopped by before to a bar that i've passed so many times it's called the cinch yeah gay bar on shout out with pride week we went by there just now And it's been there for years, and it's amazing. And I want to highlight what is so special about San Francisco, and that's what we're trying to do. And I usually just give the mic over to the restaurant owner, the arts leader, and say, what do you do? The city gets to see it, and that's what it's all about.

It's awesome. Well, we've got to let you go. But before we go, I wanted to ask, could we make a reel with you? Would you make one with us? Yeah, absolutely. Right now? Okay, let's stand up. Let's do that. Oh, but I don't have my phone. Oh, I got it. I got it. Yeah. Okay. Oh, boy. I'll do it. So we can just turn. it into selfie mode right here and we can just go so you you are the maestro here so you got to direct it okay

All right, I'm on Hard Fork right now. Hey, you two, tell us what's going on here. This is your first live audience. First live audience. We're here for Hard Fork Live at SF Jazz, having a great time here with Mayor Lurie. Well, I got to tell everybody, got to tell your audience that San Francisco, we are on the rise. When we are at our best, there is no better city on the planet than San Francisco. Let's go San Francisco. And that's on period.

Thank you very much, Mary Lourie, for stopping by. Thank you. Oh, my goodness. Kevin. We've already had so much show, and it's literally just begun. I didn't even tell him that the most relevant thing was that you didn't get your permit for your hot tub. That's right. Mayor Lurie! You need to raise revenue. I know a guy. When we come back, we'll bring you our Hard Fork Live interview with Sam Altman and Brad Lightcap from OpenAI.

This podcast is supported by IBM. Test, test, check one, two. You know you need unique New York. You know you need unique New York. Does that sound all right? Ah. that's better. You can always tell something's missing when you get isolated results like AI that's only right for one of your systems. Get AI that can work across your data and applications. Learn more at ibm.com. The AI built for business. IBM.

So, Casey, that was a really fun short interview with Mayor Daniel Lurie of San Francisco. Very grateful that he stopped by. And now we are going to bring you something different. Yeah, and we want to give you the behind the scenes because whether you were there at the show or you're just about to listen, a lot kind of happened backstage that you're going to want to know before you hear this. Yeah, so this was our interview with...

Sam Altman and Brad Lightcap from OpenAI. We invited them to come and talk with us about AI and the future topics we talk about on this show all the time. Yeah. And so, you know, the way that this show works is we don't see these folks before the show. The show just sort of starts and they show up. Kevin and I are backstage. The most recent thing that has happened is that we did this amazing demo wearing these exoskeleton pairs.

that help people who have mobility issues, and we need to remove the pants. And so we go backstage and we do remove our pants in front of Sam Altman and Brad Lightcap. And they were very cool about that, I would say. You know, they didn't make any comments. Yes, they were pointing and laughing. Yes, as we feared that they might. And so we're getting ready to go.

out on stage. And the thing that is supposed to happen is we're going to have five or six minutes where two things happen. One is we shout out our families to thank them for being there. And then we kind of want to set up the story of OpenAI in this moment. The company has had a lot going on and you and I...

I just wanted to banter back and forth a little bit to kind of set up what was going to happen before Sam and Brad come on stage. So I go up to Sam and Brad right before this happens. And I say to Brad, hey, thanks for being here. Shake his hand. Go up to Sam. Say thanks for doing this. Shake his hand.

And then Sam says something like, hey, only ask interesting questions tonight. Basically, come at me a little bit. And I say, okay, yeah, sure. And I say, if you want to troll me a little bit, make fun of me, go for it. And what Sam says is, well... I don't strike first, but I do strike back. And I was kind of like, okay, well, I don't think a lot of striking is going to be coming from me during the show, but like, okay, sure, whatever. And so then you and I head out on stage.

And we had just started the bit that we had planned, sort of saying, okay, you know, how's everybody doing? Did you enjoy the first half of the show? And I turned to my right, and I see, walking out on stage... Brad and Sam. Yes. Before, like minutes before they were supposed to arrive on stage, they had a whole intro music. We were going to tee it up. They just kind of barged onto stage. Yeah. And so when this happened, my thought was, this is probably just a production mistake.

Someone backstage told them this is your moment and pushed them on stage. It's a live show. These things happen. I think my first impulse was to say, hey, you guys want to give us a minute? But they just kind of advanced on us and sat down and were basically like, okay, cool. Like, what do you guys want to talk about?

And we were like, well, we kind of want to set up your segment. And in hindsight, though, Kevin, I think we realized that actually no one backstage had told them to come. This was kind of... a power move that they were trying to do to get us flustered heading into what would happen next. Yes, they were trolling us, and specifically they were trolling us about the lawsuit between the New York Times and OpenAI, which...

which they know that you and I are not involved in, right? They are not under any impression that we are part of the litigation team at the New York Times. But it is clear that they had something they wanted to get off their chest about that lawsuit. And I think just have a little fun with us. Yeah.

And so they came at us pretty hard. You will hear it in the interview. And you and I are trying to steer the conversation to stuff we can actually talk about. In fact, one of the things that was going to happen in the bit that we didn't do was you saying, hey, by the way, about this whole lawsuit thing, I'm not involved.

and I can't talk about it. And by walking out on stage, you know, they sort of prevented that moment from happening. Yeah, I will say, I learned a lot about this interview, only some of it from the questions we asked. I learned a lot more about Sam Altman from this brief interaction.

before the segment actually was supposed to start. Yeah, I mean, look, I think we got a lot out of just kind of the questions that we asked and we got into so many things that we wanted to talk to him about the business, about the risks of job loss, about the risks of people using chat GPT. you know, having mental health breaks. But I do think you're right, Kevin. You just...

learn something about people by observing them in public settings, how they behave, how they engage. And so I think there's just kind of a lot for everyone to chew on. You know, I was reflecting last night that the first time we had Sam Altman on the show... Two days later, he gets fired, and it sort of, in many ways, kicks off the moment that we're living in now, and that was extremely surreal.

The evening that we had at Hard Fork Live was kind of a perfect sequel to that because now you have a person who is fully in control, who wants to bend reality to his will. And if there's a couple of journalists, he can just kind of kick in the shins on his way.

toward building God, he's going to be happy to do it. Yeah. And we should also say, Sam did send us an email after the show apologizing for his behavior. He said he was, quote, such an asshole and that he felt bad about it. So that tells you...

But yeah, what you'll hear in this segment is the two of us being somewhat flustered that our planned introduction is just being interrupted by these two guys wandering on the stage. And we'll take it from there. And I will also say, I have no idea what's going to happen in Sam Altman's third appearance on... hard fork, but the bar has been set really high. All right. When we come back, we'll have the interview with Sam Altman and Brad Lightcap from OpenAI.

From Scott Z. Burns, the writer of Contagion, with special guest appearances from director Steven Soderbergh, Lawrence Fishburne, and Jennifer Ely, don't miss What Could Go Wrong. A deeply thoughtful, occasionally frightening, and often hilarious Audible original podcast that delves head and heart first into today's burning question.

Can humankind and AI actually work hand in hand? Follow Scott and an ever-expanding cast of AI-generated partners, including Lexter, an extraordinarily gifted, sharp-tongued AI, as they co-write and pitch Hollywood execs the Contagion sequel.

Listen to What Could Go Wrong, now on Audible. Go to audible.com slash whatcouldgowwrong. We're about halfway through the show. I thought I would just kind of check in. Are you guys having a good time? Okay, okay, good, okay, good. We're having a lot of fun. Oh boy. They told us to come out. They just pushed us out. There's no way. Okay, great. Do you want us to go back? I love it. We're doing it live today family

You guys are learning a very important thing about our show, which is that it's edited. Kevin, do you have maybe one more thing you want to say before we get in the interview? Yes. So we're here with Sam Altman and Brad Lightcap. We'll just hang out. Do your thing.

You can, like, check your email. Well, what we were going to do is tee up your appearance a little bit by just giving a little lay of the land of what's been going on at OpenAI, which is a very busy company. This is more fun than we're out here.

this then. Yeah. No, jump in. You guys can be Statler and Waldorf over there. We'll do the color commentary. I had a list of headlines from the past couple of weeks, and if there's anything that just makes you want to roll your eyes, you can roll your eyes. Okay. So, um... Are you going to talk about where you sue us because you don't like user privacy? Okay. The last thing Sam said to me before he came on stage was, I don't strike first. I did say that. That's true.

Well, you teed it up with the headlines. Do you want to say something, Kevin, about the New York Times? Oh, yes. We should also give our disclosures, which is that we are just journalists. We are not involved in the lawsuit. I don't know. We don't represent the company's views on the matter. What do you think of the company's views? What do I think of the company's views? Are you trying to get me fired, Sam? No, I plan on.

Kevin needs this job. I don't have any other skills. It seems like you got a podcast. I mean, a lot of things. Yeah. Well, okay, great. So, you know, you said that. I'm going to just pretend I didn't hear that. You're pro the lawsuit. What's that? You're pro the lawsuit. I think people should read the relevant filings and make up their own mind. Yes, democracy! Democracy!

We love it. We love it. We love it. And what about your mind? Well, it feels like you have something you want to say about the lawsuit. No, no. Well, look, I do think... I like user privacy. I don't think... You want to explain what you're talking about here? Oh. Well, you guys are suing us. I'm an independent contractor. I write a newsletter. It's called Platformer. Yeah, don't drag him into this.

And one of the things that's happening is you all are... Sorry. Your employer is... I don't know what you call it for an independent contractor. The New York Times. Let's just say the New York Times. One of the great institutions, truly. for a long time, is taking a position that we should have to preserve our users' logs, even if they're chatting in private mode, even if they've asked us to delete them.

you know the lawsuit we're happy to fight out but that thing we really we think that privacy and ai is just this like extremely important concept to get right for the future and we care a lot about the precedent still love you guys still love the new york times but that one we feel strongly about

Well, thank you for your views. And I'll just say it must be really hard when someone does something with your data that you don't really want them to. I don't know what that's like personally, but maybe someone else does. Okay, let's get started with the questions. That's all right.

I was recently told by a guest on stage that the singularity would be gentle. So I just want to point that out to you. Casey, read your headlines. Speaking of, do we still want the headlines? Let's go into the question. These people know what's been happening with OpenAI. Okay. But I think it's important to give a sense of the sheer volume of stuff you all are doing. We've been covering...

for a long time. I don't think either of us have ever seen a company that makes this much news this regularly on this many areas. You've got hardware stuff going on with Johnny Ive. You've got, obviously, ChatGPT continues to grow. You're doing this... defense contract, this $200 million defense contract, a deal with Mattel to make toys. I think you were the first company to sign a deal with Mattel and the military in the same week. I like that.

Stargate, your big data center project, your attempted conversion to a for-profit company. So there's just a lot going on in your worlds. Casey? Well, but we wanted to start with something, I don't know, that I thought you might have fun talking about, which is that rascal Mark Zuckerberg keeps coming after your employees. And

I'm sure this is happening to you guys on some level all of the time, but I wonder if there's been any particularly funny or crazy moment over the past few weeks as they've really stepped this up. Any that you think have been particularly funny? Many Yeah, I Don't know I haven't slept in four years. So it's like at this point nothing Nothing phases me what one of the strangest things of the job is

The amount of things that can go wrong by like 11 o'clock on a Monday morning is just an astonishing diversity of stuff. And so it's like, okay, Zuckerberg is doing some new insane thing. What's next? I want to gossip for just one minute more. Only one? We're here for a lot of that. We can do more gossip. Do you think Mark Zuckerberg actually believes in super intelligence or do you just think he's saying that as a recruiting tactic? I think he believes he's super intelligent.

Light cap, off the ropes! Very good. All right, but it sounds like you're... Your confidence has not been shaken by the recent raid on your employees. We're feeling good. Yeah. All right. All right. So you recently wrote this essay I just mentioned, The Gentle Singularity. And you wrote, we're past the event horizon. The takeoff has started. And, you know, people...

I think read that and thought, do these guys like have a super intelligence that they're keeping it in the basement? I assume that that's not true, but tell us a little bit about why you wrote that essay and when in your mind we hit this point of no return.

We don't have a super intelligence in the basement, but we have shipped a model that any of you can use and I hope any of you do that is Quite smart relative to what you might have expected five years ago where the world would be with ai and we have all adjusted to this we've all just sort of said oh you know this is

you know this is the new world we have like phd level intelligence in our pocket we can use it we can talk to it all day we can do all the stuff for us um but it is kind of remarkable that this has happened and this is the world now And when you are living through moving history, you adapt so quickly that I think it's hard to get the perspective of like, man, five years ago, most of the experts made fun of you.

Anyone who said AI, AGI might be even a plausible thing to work towards. And now here we are with this thing that has come quite a long way that we can use in all these ways. We have always, so we used to try to just say like, hey, this AGI thing is coming. It might be a really big deal. It might be really important. You all should pay attention. No one cared. And we shipped a product and then people cared. And a thing we've learned again and again is.

You know, talking about it doesn't seem to break through, but if people can use it and feel it and, you know, see where it's good and where it's bad and integrated with their lives, then they do. And so now we see... many years ahead of us of extreme progress that we feel is like pretty much on lock and models that will get to the point where they are capable of doing meaningful science, meaningful AI research.

We continue to feel a responsibility to tell the world about that. Most people won't listen. Maybe some more people will listen this time. But we'll ship products that expose these higher levels of intelligence that we'll build. And that is how I think people will really get.

their hands around what's happening now brad it's your job to manage the business of open ai what is being past the event horizon towards super intelligence mean for open AI as a company? I imagine it makes lots of different kinds of decisions different, but how do you plan for a world like the one that Sam is describing as a person who runs a business?

Yeah, it's the fun part of what we do. We debate this internally a lot. Like, we will kind of wake up one day with this incredibly powerful thing. And will the world be different that day?

And I think what we've all kind of agreed now is it probably won't. Kind of to Sam's point, I think these things really have to be... kind of integrated into people's lives they have to be felt and that change is more gradual and so we work really closely with companies and as much as we do with users to figure out what that process will look like i do think businesses will look very different in the future so

My personal metric for what business in the superintelligence age means is you've got one person who has a lot of agency and a lot of willpower who has the capacity to start a company that can do billions of dollars in revenue. And it's hard to imagine now. You think, okay, I need salespeople and I need product people and engineers and accountants and so on. But...

But all of that stuff now can kind of just be managed, right? It can be kind of built into the system. And that just gives incredible agency to individual people. So I want to get into the nitty-gritty of building this future. Right now, the agents that you all have built for coding are really extremely good. People can build a lot of amazing stuff with them. Outside that domain, we've seen less progress.

Talk to me about what's going to happen the next year that makes you feel like you can start knocking off one or more of these other domains. Well, first of all, coding is pretty general purpose. If you can write code, you can do a system that can write code just like a person that can write code can make a lot of other things happen.

But we are beginning to see scientists be much more productive with this. We're seeing companies really change a lot of their workflows. The thing, though, that I am excited for... So most of the way people use AI today is sort of like, send a request, get a response. You send chat to your request, it might think for a second, it might not, it sends you something back. You are in one of those like vibe coding things and you...

do something and you get something back. I think I'm very excited for a world where each of us has you know, a copy of O3 or many copies of O3 that are just constantly running, constantly trying to like say, oh, I see this happening now this and I'm reading Slack and I'm reading email and I see this and this and this. And you asked about this yesterday. Here's a new idea. And starts to just...

We have this team of agents, assistants, companions, whatever you want to call them, that are doing stuff in the background all of the time. And that, I think, will really transform what... people can do and how we work and kind of maybe to some extent how we just sort of like

live our lives. So I use O3 all the time. It is helpful to me as a journalist. It can fact check stuff for me. It can edit stuff for me. When is the moment when like it just kind of knows what I do and in the morning it actually just kind of starts doing that stuff.

me telling it um well that's kind of what i'm talking about except i don't think it should be without you telling it but i would love if i woke up every morning and there was uh you know a drafted response to every email that had come in overnight and i could click and i could say i want to send this one i want to edit this one i want to send that one if i could open chat gpt and say hey here was the stuff you were working on yesterday that you didn't finish on your to-do list here's

my attempts at that do you want me to take this action now on that one and by the way here these other things that happened overnight in you know with a customer in the world or whatever and you know here's a set of stuff i could do for you and i have like all of this ready to go and i i could just sort of go through and say like okay do that don't do that you know here's what should have been different here that I'm very excited about but I don't want to like go to sleep and have 03 just start

Taking actions for me. All right. I use O3 a lot too and I find it very useful The thing I will say is that it lies it like more than previous models I feel like it is a crafty shifty assistant that will just once in a while make stuff up and actually It seems like the hallucination rates on these newer models are staying about the same or maybe even getting worse. So do you have a theory on why that might be? I think it did get a little bit worse from 01 to 03.

and we'll make it much better in the next version. I think we were earlier in learning how to align reasoning models and also like how people are using them in different ways, but I think we've now learned a lot. And I would suspect you'll be very happy with the next generation there. So you made your largest acquisition to date this year with Johnny Ives I.O. The first crop of AI hardware that we've seen has not been particularly successful.

Brad and Sam, what do you guys feel like you're seeing that makes you feel like you can do something different here? Well, every time you kind of replatform technology, there tends to be kind of a corresponding set of things that get built that change how we interface with that technology. So I think the question here is, is that going to happen again?

um you know all of a sudden right like you have uh uh you you kind of miniaturize the pc and you have the mobile phone you know the pc itself was a miniaturization the mainframe and so on and so forth I think this one has a different direction. I think this one is really going to be about this very kind of aware, very contextual, almost companion-like system that

Is it going to be less about a dependency on a screen? I think there's a place for a screen in that world, but it's going to be really about an awareness of the ambient environment. What's going on? Sam mentioned the trivial example of something that is looking at your email. You can build something that's really bad that does that today. But to get to the version of that that's like transcendently good, there's a ton of context and a ton of awareness that you have to have of like...

what each situational thing is that helps you craft exactly the right response. And imagine that now in kind of any arbitrary situation and wanting to have that with you all the time. And so I think that's a very compelling direction for this type of hardware. It sounds a lot like Alexa. Is it gonna feel a lot different than Alexa?

Don't you just want to wait and be surprised and get some joy like it's been a long time since the world has gotten a Fundamentally new kind of computer like let us try if it's Alexa. We're gonna be really mad. I'm just saying So will I and these people will remember this Sam I know I think we can do I think we have a chance to do something truly great, but hardware is really hard and it takes a while and

I've always wanted to try to do a new kind of computer, but that hasn't worked most of the time. So we're really going to take our time and try to get it right.

Sam, a few years ago you described your relationship with Microsoft and its CEO Satya Nadella as, quote, the best bromance in tech. The bromance has been feeling a little wobbly recently. OpenAI needs Microsoft's blessing for this for-profit conversion, and Microsoft has reportedly peeved at you about a bunch of things, including the terms of a planned acquisition. Last week, the Wall Street Journal reported that things had gotten so...

that OpenAI executives were considering reporting Microsoft to the government for anti-competitive behavior. Do you believe that? When you read those things and say, like, do you think... Are you saying it's not true? You know what I always think when I read that? I hope I get to ask Sam Altman about it. So what is going on and are you caught in a bad bromance? I had a super nice call with Satya yesterday.

about many topics including our hopefully very long and productive future working together and obviously in any deep partnership there are points of tension and we've certainly had those but on the whole it's been like really wonderfully good for both companies um we're both ambitious companies so we do find some flash points but i would expect that it is something that we find deep value in for both sides for a very long time to come.

you know, in a world where I do read these articles sometimes, like, OpenAI, Microsoft about to collapse, and this, you know, that, and then, like, my calls are like, how do we figure out what the next decade together looks like? And it's just, it doesn't, yeah. Again, not to pretend like there's no tension. There is. But there's so much good stuff there. I think there's such a long horizon. That's what we in the business call a non-denial denial. I don't know. Just kidding.

Let's move on into some policy stuff. You've talked to President Trump. What does he think about AI? What are those conversations like? That was not intended to be a laugh line. You want to take it first? I'll do it. No, that's fine. That was not intended to be Laugh Line either. I think he really gets it. I think he gets the technology. I couldn't say that about all presidents. I think he really understands the importance of leadership in this technology.

the potential for economic transformation, the sort of geopolitical importance, the need to build out a lot of infrastructure. They're like very productive conversations. And he has done stuff that has really helped the whole industry. You know, I... It is easier to permit data centers and new energy to run those data centers than it has, I think, ever been before. And that could have gone the other way.

Dario Amadei of Anthropic recently said that he thinks 50% of entry-level white-collar jobs could disappear due to AI in the next one to five years. Do you agree? No. No, I don't. I just... No. Why not, Brad? We have no evidence of this. And Dario's a scientist. And I would hope he takes an evidence-based approach to these types of things. But we work with every business under the sun. We look at the problem and opportunity.

of deploying AI into every company on Earth. We have yet to see any evidence that people are kind of wholesale replacing entry-level jobs. I think that there... is going to be some sort of change in the job market i think it's inevitable i think every time you get a platform shift you get a change in the job market i mean in 1900 40 of people worked in agriculture it's two percent today um

Microsoft Excel has probably been the greatest job displacer of the 20th century. And if we knew a priori that Microsoft Excel was coming and everyone was kind of fretting about it, I think in retrospect we would have thought that was dumb.

so i think like there will be change uh of course but uh i think like there's a there's no evidence of it today and b i think like we will manage through it um we have a lot of empathy for the problem i think like we work with businesses every day to try and enable people to be able to use the tools at the level of like the 20 year olds that come into companies and use them with a level of fluency that

far transcends anyone else at those organizations. But we see it as our mission to make sure that people know how to use these tools and to drive people forward. You know, I have to say, we've had some listeners write into the show and say, hey, I'm a junior coder. I just got laid off. I'm not feeling...

really good about my prospects here. So that's a pretty small sliver of the economy. But, you know, I hear you talk about what you want to do with O3. I think if it gets as good as you're saying, it's not just going to be the junior coders who are going to be affected by that. Right. So I guess what I'm saying is I feel like.

I'm seeing like slivers of it now and I'm curious what you make of those. I do think there will be areas where... some jobs go away or maybe there will be some whole categories of jobs that go away and any job that goes away even if it's like good for society and the economy as a whole is painful very painful extremely painful in that moment and so i do

totally get not just the anxiety but that there is going to be real pain here um in in many cases in many more cases though i think we will find that the world is significantly underemployed. The world wants way more code than can get written right now. I think we are already seeing companies who said, oh, I'm going to need less coders to now saying paradoxically, I need more coders. They're going to work differently, but I'm just going to make a hundred times as much code.

100 times as much product with 10 times as much people and will still make 30 times as much money even if the price comes down. I think all of human history suggests that if you give people better tools if technology keeps going although there are always people who say you know we're going to be working three hours a day and sitting on the beach and we're going to have run out of things to do like human

Demand seems limitless. Our ability to imagine new things to do for each other seems limitless. We always seem to want more stuff to play increasingly silly status games. Our jobs would not have seemed like real jobs to people in the not very... distant past. You're sitting around talking on stage and you're trying to make a piece of software and you're trying to do a podcast and you're trying to make people laugh.

That's great, but that's like play. That's not a job. You have plenty of food to eat. You have all this stuff to do. You have this unimaginable luxury. And because I think human imagination and desire to man, whatever you want to call it, is limitless. we will find incredible new things to do. Society will get way richer. I think generally society gets richer. Unemployment goes down.

up and i'd expect to keep seeing that even though people i think don't talk about that very much and the entry-level people i think will be the people that do the best here they're the most fluent with the tools they're the most like able to think of things in very new ways. They have this sort of largest canvas. So we...

There's going to be real downside here. There's going to be real negative impact. And again, like any single job lost really matters to that person. And the hard part about this is I think it will happen faster than previous technological changes but but i think the new jobs will be better and people will have better stuff and and and and the the kind of like take that

half the jobs are going to be gone in a year or two years or five years or whatever i think that just i think that's not how society really works even if the technology we're ready for that the inertia of society which will be helpful in this case is like there's a lot of mass there the thing we actually see empirically if we want to talk about kind of what we observe is somewhat what sam's describing it's actually there's there's a class of uh of of worker that i think is more tenured is more

oriented toward a routine and a certain way of doing things in a certain role that is not actually sophisticated in use of these tools they're not adopting them they tend to think that it's not worth their time or whatever it may be and i think there's a lot of fear there And a lot of what's driving that fear are like 20-somethings that are actually coming into the workforce who have been using these tools for years and years.

and who've mastered them in a way that they kind of look at these other jobs and they're like, why would you waste your time doing that thing? I can do that much faster. And so the thing that companies actually worry about deeply is not the entry-level job. It's really the job of the person that has been at the company for 30 years, who's done something in a very kind of rote and routine way, where there's an urge on the side of management of wanting to really kind of modernize the tool set.

And what do you do with that? And that's, I think, actually the kind of addressable problem for us.

Sam, two years ago, you testified to Congress about the need for more AI regulation. More recently, you went back to Washington and testified again that you supported a light-touch regulatory regime. And earlier this year, you said you supported a federal preemption on state-level AI regulations.

a version of which is now part of the Republican budget bill. What changed? Did you see the regulations that people were writing and thought, we wanted regulation, but not like that? No, I still think we need some regulation, but I would say I have... for i think like a patchwork across the states would probably be a real mess and very difficult to offer services under and i also think that i have become more

Jade, it's quite the right word, but something in that direction about the ability of policymakers to grapple with the speed of technology. And I worry that if people write... If we kick off a three-year process to write something that's very detailed and covers a lot of cases, the technology will just move very quickly. On the other hand, as these systems get quite powerful, I think we clearly need something.

And I think something around the really risky capabilities and ideally something that can be quite... adaptive and not like a law that survives a hundred years and sort of says, here's exactly the things you can do and not do would be good. But yeah, it's like impossible for you to imagine a world where society doesn't decide we need some, some framework here. Hmm.

Earlier this year, you adjusted GPT for O after it inadvertently became more sycophantic than you intended. Since then, we've read more stories about how ChatGPT and other chatbots can destabilize people by sending them down conspiratorial rabbit holes, making them... I feel like they're having mystical experiences. Can that be stopped? Do you want it to stop? Of course we want it to stop. I mean, we do a lot of things to try to mitigate that.

You know, if people are having like a crisis, which they talk to ChatDT about, we try to convince them to, we try to suggest that they get help from a professional, that they talk to their family if conversations are going down a sort of... rabbit hole in this direction we try to cut them off or suggest to the user to you know maybe think about something differently but there are i think the broader topic of mental health

and the way that that interacts with over-reliance on ai models is something we're trying to take extremely seriously and rapidly we don't want to like slide into the mistakes that I think previous generation of tech companies made by not reacting quickly enough as a new thing, sort of like had a psychological interaction. Have you ever thought about just like literally putting a warning on that says,

This is ChatGPT. You are not talking to God. You are not having a religious experience. I mean, the model will tell you things like that, and then users will write us and say, like, you're... you you modified this uh you know and they changed their like custom instructions um but yes there need to be a lot of warnings like that however to the users that are in a fragile enough mental place that are like on the edge of a psychotic break

We haven't yet figured out how a warning gets through there. We also have to be careful because there are an incredible number of use cases that I think probably by... by sheer volume outweigh some of the use cases you're describing where people are really relying on these systems for pretty critical parts of their life. These are things like, you know, almost kind of borderline therapeutic or, I mean, you know, I get stories of people.

who have rehabilitated marriages, have rehabilitated relationships with estranged loved ones, things like that, where it's highly net positive. And there's not a dependency, but it's the first time in their life that they've had something that they feel like they can confide.

in and it doesn't cost them a thousand dollars an hour right and i was surfing in costa rica the other day and someone paddled up to me and you know it was chatting with him a local costa rican guy and i was he's like where do you work i said open ai he's like oh you make chat gpt um and he started he started crying

Like, Chad GPD saved my marriage. I didn't know how to talk to my wife, and it gave me tips to talk to my wife, and I've learned that, and we're on a much better path. It sounds like a dumb and stupid story, but it's not. I mean, I was there. That's great. We're back to even... because a chatbot tried to break up my marriage. Well, not our chatbot, though. Well, it was your chatbot, but it was inside Bing, so... Well, spread the blame around there.

Now, Sam, you just had a kid. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Do you think over the course of their lifetime your kid will have more human friends or more AI friends? More human friends, but... AI will be, if not a friend, at least an important kind of companion of some sort. Is that okay with you? Like, would you, if you're...

Your kid at one point when they're a little older came home and said, I've got an AI friend. How would that make you feel? If my kid felt like that was playing, that was like replacing human friends.

I would have concerns about that, at least with what, again, there are edge cases, you know, any person... who talks to hundreds of millions of people a day is going to meet a lot of edge cases and the sense he's talking to hundreds of millions of people a day there are going to be some real edge cases in there but most people much more

than I was concerned, seemed to really understand the difference between talking to a person and talking to chat GPT. And I still do have a lot of concerns about the impact on mental health and the social impacts from the deep relationships that people are going to have with.

But I think it, at least so far, it has surprised me on the upside of how much people... really differentiate between like, that's an AI and I talk to an AI in some way and I get something out of it and that's a friend and I talk to a friend, a person in this other way and get a very different thing out of that.

All right, here's something I've always wanted to ask you. AI Twitter is still really active, even though Twitter doesn't exist anymore. You actively post there, share a lot of news there. And that's extremely helpful and good for Elon Musk, a man who is trying to destroy your company. me have you ever thought of just moving your posts somewhere else where should I move them well you could create your own social app

Don't go to Blue Sky. They don't like AI there. They're not going to be nice to you. It's a rough neighborhood. Maybe it's the last thing. We wanted to know this, too. We'd invite you both to answer this. Is there any part of your life that you feel like, I want to wall this off from AI a little bit? It's fun to talk about AI. We think it's all very useful. We're excited to keep building it. But this particular thing, we're going analog.

I gotta think about that one. Surfing, presumably. Although maybe you asked for tips. We're roboticizing that now, too. It's unfortunate. But let me think about it. I'm big on the analog stuff. I, you know, I put... my phone away and go for hikes every weekend and i you know hanging out with my family i put my phone away i and i'm like very happy not to have technology in the way for that alright Brad and Sam thank you so much for joining us thank you thank you thank you Brad thank you

From Scott Z. Burns, the writer of Contagion, with special guest appearances from director Steven Soderbergh, Lawrence Fishburne, and Jennifer Ely, don't miss What Could Go Wrong. A deeply thoughtful, occasionally frightening, and often hilarious Audible original podcast that delves head and heart first into today's burning question.

Can humankind and AI actually work hand in hand? Follow Scott and an ever-expanding cast of AI-generated partners, including Lexter, an extraordinarily gifted, sharp-tongued AI, as they co-write and pitch Hollywood execs the Contagion sequel. Listen to What Could Go Wrong, now on Audible. Go to audible.com slash whatcouldgorong.

Hard Fork is produced by Rachel Cohn and Whitney Jones. We're edited by Jen Poyant. We're fact-checked by Caitlin Love. Today's show was engineered by Katie McMurrin. Original music by Alicia B'Etoop, Marion Lozano, Rowan Nemisto, and Dan Powell. Video production by Sawyer Roque, Pat Gunther, and Chris Schott. You can watch this full episode on YouTube at youtube.com slash hardfork. Special thanks to the New York Times live event team who helped us put together Hard Fork Live.

Marissa Farina, Jennifer Feeney, and Morgan Singer. Thanks to everyone at SF Jazz, the venue for our live show, as well as the band Brass Animals that played with us live on stage. Special thanks also to Matt Collette, Paula Schumann, Pui Wing Tam, Dalia Haddad, and Jeffrey Miranda. email us as always at hardfork at nytimes.com.

At Capella University, you can learn at your own pace with our FlexPath learning format. Take one or two courses at a time and complete as many as you can in a 12-week billing session. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu. Fastest 25% of students. Cost varies by pace, transfer credits, and other factors. Fees apply.