E1624: M17 Foundation Fires Back At MMDVM Decision!

with early. I shared the video with about twenty four hours before I made it go live, and you guys had some really good feedback on that, which I do appreciate. I mean, even if you didn't agree with me, I do appreciate the feedback. I had mentioned in that video something about not liking open source. It was a specific topic I was talking about. So I'm gonna explain a little bit more about open source here later in this video. So stay tuned really quick, because I'm not against open source.

I just had some comments about it, and a couple of you made some really good points and I want to address as well. So this Amateur Radio Daily is what I subscribe to. This website right here is what I subscribe to, and this is why I got this feed first. But then a few of you shared this rebuttal with me, and I think that this is very good information put out by the M seventeen Foundation. Rebuttical rebuttal to Jonathan Taylor G four k LX statements regarding

M seventeen. So, first of all, I want to say very I want to make it very clear that I'm just reporting the news here, I'm adding commentary to it. Okay. I have always thought the M seventeen project was a good project. I've always liked MMDVM, Okay, So I don't have any thing against these groups. The old joke goes, if you have three Ham radio operators in a city living together in the same city, you're going to have

two different Ham radio clubs in that same city. And that is to say that we we tend to like to argue. As Ham radio operators, we tend to like to argue. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that. Just argue like an adult, and you know it's okay. Difference of opinion is a good thing. So I was just offering speculation, and I was offering feedback comments to the article put out by Jonathan Naylor, and I'm going to do the

same thing on this article right here. Another article that was shared with me is this one from zero Retries zero retries dot org. Now I'm not familiar with with this website at all. This is an editor is Steve strow N eight G and J and I don't personally know this person. But he writes MMDVM verses seventeen and he says disclaimer, I'm a big fan of both G four klex and SP five WWP and the background information, his synopsis, how we got to this point, this kind

of thing. So he gives a lot of commentary and opinion pieces on this topic, just like I am doing. Okay, I'm really trying not to I'm trying not to take size. I had a couple of comments on the original video, but I'm trying to take side. Let's see what Let's see what M venteen Foundation has to say. Here we go. On July twelfth, in the Open DV Forum, Jonathan Naylor announced the support for M seventeen had been removed from

the Multi Mode Digital Voice Modem MMDVM package. Thus, when this change went into effect, it was a sudden, and it was sudden and none announced. Because many MMDVM units automatically update with Naylor's updates to MMDVM to automatically patch security issues and bugs. Yeah, most of them just update automatically. You don't have to click a button or anything. They just kind of do it. Naylor's removal of M seventeen broke the functionality of MMDVM hotspots and modems such as

used in repeaters to operate M seventeen. While the M seventeen Foundation respects Naylor's decision to make changes to MMDVM, which is completely separate project from M seventeen, in this post, Naylor made a number of personal, highly opinionated statements directed to M seventeen, its principles and technology choices. What follows is the M seventeen Foundation's formal response to Naylor's posts. Naylor's points I should say by seventeen Foundation board member

Watjscheck Kasmarski sp five WWP, I really do apologize. I'm sure I said your name wrong. No disrespect meant okay. And it goes through these points here, and it does a counterpoint for several things that Jonathan Naylor said. Here is the one of them that I cut this first topic. Here is a counterpoint on the grant from ARDC, and this was one of the points that I talked about in my first video. So M seventeen's response says, we in fact received two grants. Links to those those grants,

both grant budgets were accepted. AIRDC received reports at the end of each grant period. Additionally, in twenty twenty three to twenty twenty four, Kasmarski also submitted monthly reports to AIRDC and d ARC as. The second grant was issued by DARC cqdl g mbH for the salary of Kazmarski. There's no reason for AIRDC to analyze our spending again as they have already done so good. Okay, all right, Like I said about AARDC in the first video, they

offer grants to nonprofit organizations. They will not offer me a grant because I'm a for profit organization, which is totally fine, completely fine. So if anyone ever claimed to be a nonprofit and then tried to start to sell their item, or their ideas, or their concept or the hardware for profit, then there would be some probably some legal some legal ramvocations behind that, but that does not appear to be what's happened here. So again, I'm just

reading this article at face value. I read Jonathan Naylor's article at face value, and I'm gonna read today's article at face value as well. Naylor points out the new M seventeen Foundation isn't much better. A number of the star warts were excluded from it when it was formed. Rather more sadly, the M seventeen Foundation made no mention of a number of people organizations that helped them get to where they are now. Okay, and I pointed that point out in the first in the first video, we

never removed M seventeen's response. We never removed any credit or comment or or commit history from the GitHub, effectively making no mention of a number of people that helped him.

Kesmarski again apologies for the pronunciation, publicly stated that in his opinion, the M seventeen hardware offered by CSI is slightly overpriced and might not be purchased by many CSI Connects Systems who makes the CS seven thy M seventeen radio one of the It was the first actual radio to transmit M seventeen over RF, and to my knowledge it's still the only one doing M seventeen. Today, we'll see CSI offers solid, sturdy radios with bulletproof RF circuitry.

Kesmarski kept saying that too every time someone asked him, but this was somehow overlooked by Naylor. M seventeen Foundation advertises CSI's M seventeen products pro bono at every hamfare or club, meaning we attend. Heard rumors about seventeen looking for charging for commercial entities royalty to include their equipment

and use their logo. I made a comment on that that I had heard that rumor like two months ago, two months before the recording of that first video, but I never said anything about it because there's just a rumor. I don't like to participate in rumors if I don't have to. But now we've got some written documentation, and he even says. Naylor even says, I have heard rumors that the M seventeen Foundation is looking at charging M Seventeen's response, in our opinion, using gossip is a very

low rhetoric figure. I agree with that statement. Let us focus on facts instead. M seventeen Foundation never required and will not require any commercial entity to pay royalties for any form of M seventeen protocol use. The use of the M seventeen logo will be free for non commercial use. We are still figuring out details behind licensing. The logo is being registered under Kasmarski's name as a physical person,

simply verifiable through a WIPO search. All ip rights will be transferred to M seventeen Foundation once the process is complete. China and US are two pending jurisdictions. The registration is a preventative measure mitigating unauthorized use of the logo. M seventeen Foundation doesn't believe that registering the M seventeen logo breaks any open source philosophy rules. See this Linux Foundation entry. In the case, a piece of text is protected, not

the image. So I had made a statement about not liking open source and talking about how open source I've known some open source projects to fail, and several of you came along and said, well, Linux is an open source project and it's running strong, which of course is correct. That's an accurate statement. Okay, what I meant by that,

I don't dislike open source. I just see it as something that has a greater potential of failure in many cases, maybe not in every case, but in many cases because there's no financial backing behind it, people work the developer And what I said in the first video was the developers work to release leaset this product. Whatever the product is, whether it has to do with ham radio or not. The developers of an open source project worked very hard to release a product and often do not get recognized

to the greatest potential. It's often a thankless job, just like a repeater being a repeater owner is often a thankless job to develop this product, and people just complain about it. So a lot of so. And I've seen firsthand several open source projects that fall flat on their face and go nowhere after a couple of years because the developers are just sick of working so much, not getting any recognition, not getting any thank you, and not making money at it. Linux obviously is not does not

fall into that category of what I just described. But let me ask you this, here's a serious question. Okay, do you use Linux because it's free or do you use Linux because it's the most kick ass operating system known to man at this point in time. If they started charging for Linux tomorrow, would you buy it? I would? I would by Linux to more, I bought Windows. I've never used a Mac well long time ago. I bought a Mac that had the macOS on it, and it was pre macOS ten, a long time ago. I didn't

like it. I don't think Linux being free is why Linux is so popular. I think Linux being free is great because it is open source. But I think Linux just being a freaking awesome operating system is why it's so popular. If it sucked, if it didn't do what half of what it was supposed to, if it was very cumbersome and hard to use, which is not. There's a learning curve to it, obviously, but it's not very cumbersome.

It's not hard to use once you understand it. I don't think it would be nearly as popular even if it was free. So it's Linux popular and running most of the Internet. Is that because it's free or is that because it's just works so well? Naylor goes on to say, secondly, technical when started M seventeen was proudly created by people who said that they brought fresh thinking to the digital voice. I would say that it was

characterized more as a combination of arrogance and stupidity. Again, these are his words, the fact that none of them have ever operated a digital mode, let alone studied the DV mode was seen as a positive, and M seventeen's response, ad Personum Kazmarski studied TETRA, DMR and NXDN and he repeats that in basically every interview given along with the ac ELP voice codec back in twenty eighteen, right off the bat, false statement. Okay, so they're refuting that statement. Okay, okay, good.

One of the key members designed it like a packet radio system, where each block of packet of information needed is needed to be received perfectly. In other words, no forward air correction. M seventeen's response, This is incorrect. In seventeen uses forward air correction schemes similar to those one seen in other modes. It would almost have to really as a digital voice mode, it would almost have to. So he goes on to say a lot more stuff here,

and they break this down very well. They break down Jonathan Naylor's statement, and they reply and refute most of it. Okay, say right here, Naylor is incorrect. I thought this response was very good. Naylor says, an no orphaned vocoder. It doesn't sound very good. Either ambient and it's all his forms consider are sound considerably better. M. Seventeen's response is, we regard it doesn't sound very good either, end quote as Naylor's personal opinion, and thus won't discuss. That's taking

the high road. I respect that, Okay. I get a lot of people saying, well, DMR sounds so much better than fusion, or fusion sounds so much better than DMR, or P twenty five sounds better than everything. That's a matter of your opinion, because guess what DMR is. Also See if people call System fusion C FOURFL, and it is, it's four level FSK four level frequency shift keying modulation over FM. It is C four FM, But so is DMR.

DMR is also C four FM. Fusion makes a better radio than a lot of the Chinese vendors, not all of them, but a lot of the Chinese vendors. So sometimes of the quality of signal is just simply because you're talking on a fusion radio on System Fusion. But effectively, if you listen to all of these modes P twenty five phase one even, but P twenty five phase two certainly P twenty five Phase two, DMR or system fusion. They're almost all exactly the same as far as modulation

and codec goes. Differences can vary in manufacture of radios, Yes, but the mode itself sounds almost exactly the same to me. Anyway, You may not agree, and that's okay, and that's what they're saying here as well. Now, if you are using system fusion or DMR or even M seventeen, if you're interested in checking out a net for any of these modes, I highly recommend ham dot Live. Check out ham dot Live on their website. You can run a net and watch nets being run for free on this web based

logging platform that works on all systems. Yes, it will work on Mac. Yes it will work on Unix because it's all web based. Check out ham dot live. You can watch other people check in, you can see who's waiting in line check in, you can check in yourself. You can follow along with any net where the net control operator uses ham dot live to log and keep track of the net. Ham dot Live is the sponsor of today's video. They've been a sponsor of this series

for several months now. I really thank Sean. Check out the video interview I did with him A few months back, and thank you ham dot live for supporting the channel. Another aspect here is Naylor says the wrong type of fec Ford error correction applied badly and M seventeen's response this technical point needs some more detail. Assuming nahmor means the convolutional encoder used in seventeen, there are two approaches if it comes to use zero filled and tail biting.

M seventeen uses the former, as it makes sure that the end of the trellis always ends at a known state. Tail biting offers better coding rates for short blocks of data, but our encoder payloads are two hundred and seventy bits, he said. Naylor says it shouldn't really be a problem since SM seventeen has said that my software isn't important. Seventeen response, please provide substantive references to this statement my

software isn't important? Where? When? And who? So? In other words, to me that says that M seventeen is saying, we never said that. Provide proof that we said that where is it? And then one more time they kind this is the last one. This is the last statement. Naylor says there is a need for an open source DV mode However, M seventeen is not that mode. M seventeen's response is that's Naylor's opinion, and thus we have no comment.

The conclusion reads as as the above information reflects. M seventeen Foundation considers most of Naylor's administrative and technical criticisms invalid. Naylor is, of course entitled to his own opinions, technical and otherwise, but most of his comments regarding M seventeen our opinions, not many statements of fact, And again that's the opinion of the M seventeen Foundation. So you got three Hams living in the town, and you're gonna have

two Ham radio clubs. I don't know what, you know what, there's probably something that happened that we don't know about. What made What makes Jonathan Naylor so anti M seventeen all of a sudden, He doesn't really say, I mean, he kind of gives details. He gives, in my opinion, is his stuff that is like, why did you wait till now? If all of this is what you're saying

is true, why did you wait till now? Two years into the pro two three years however long it's been into the project to say, nobody don't want to include that anymore. But there's more to the story than we're being told here, which is okay, you know, it may

not be our business, it may not be my business. Okay, I'm just commenting on an article I found, But I would like to know do you guys tend to I think the reading through the comments of the first video, I think most of you probably tended to side with them seventeen on this, not to side with MMDVM. So what do you think? Are you siding with MMDVM or

are you siding with them seventeen? Because if M seventeen has followed all of the stipulations from the grant they got from AARDC, which it seems like they have, and they're still in good standing with THEIRDC, and they're still following through on their promises to make a digital voice CODEC open source with Kodek two, seems to me like they are doing exactly what they should be doing. So why the turmoil? What caused all this? I don't know. If you know, put a comment in the video below.

Thanks for watching today.