E1520: What ELSE is Wrong with DMR?

sign up today and thank you for the support. Some more updates on DMR, What my thought process is behind DMR, What I do and don't like about DMR. My original video titled what is Wrong with DMR hawd a lot of really good comments. In this video, we're going to talk about one of those comments that was actually made on Reddit after the fact, and I shared the video on Reddit and a couple other things applied to some

other comments. And the original article that was about Brandmeister not allowing you to create new talk groups anymore is kind of what spawned this whole thing, and I had some thoughts on that, so I want to further address more questions, more thoughts I had. I said in the first video that was going to make a part two, and now I'm thinking I probably will make up Part three at some point in time, but this is part two,

So let's talk about this right now. One thing that I will say upfront, and I think I misspoke this in the first video. Okay, I was talking about the security feature of not Someone was complaining about having to upload a copy of your license to get a dMRI ID, and I said, well, that's a security feature so that nobody can register an ID for you. In that way, nobody can use your ID. Well, what I meant was and I think I said it wrong, So apologies for that.

But you have to upload a copy of your license to radioid dot net to get a dMRI ID, a seven digit dMRI ID in your call sign name, so that idea is registered to your call sign. The reason you have to upload a copy of your license is that so no one else can register an ID with your call sign. Now, once that ID is out there,

it's public domain. It's public information. Everyone's going to see it when you kee up on the DMR network anyway, So someone could take that ID and enter it into a radio of theirs and impersonate you the same way they could do it on a WIRESX network with just inputting your call sign into their radio the same way they could do it on a d Star network with putting your call sign into their radio. So the security is not preventing someone from using your ID and their radio.

The security is preventing someone from registering a new ID under your call sign. So I wanted to make that clear because I think I misspoke or I said that in the first one, but I said it in a way that was unclear, So I apologize for that. Well, this time today, we're going to talk a little bit more about the DMR ID aspect and how out of all the digital modes dr DMR is not the only one that uses IDs instead of call signs. P twenty five uses IDs instead of call signs. NXDN uses IDs

instead of call signs. Okay, wirez X or a system fusion wires X and d Star use call signs. And in my opinion, I think that we should try to implement a DMR call sign exchange because here's the problem with Okay, let me, I'm getting ahead of myself. Now, let me go to this comment, and this is kind of where it started. This is a repeat of what we were talking about. DMR is probably the dumbest mode in HIM radio for the simple fact that every call sign needs a radio ID assigned for it to work

on any network. First of all, something I did not mention in the first video is that's an incorrect statement. It does not need a radio ID to work on any network. It needs a radio ID to work on the Brandmeister network. And I gave a couple of points in my first video about what I didn't like about Brandmeister, and we're going to talk a little bit more about that in this video, so keep watching on that. Okay, I can put any ID into my radio and key up on a sea bridge network and use it all

day long. There is no ID authentication parameter built into a c bridge. It's built into Brandmeister. I don't know if it's built into TGIF. If someone's familiar enough with TGIF to acknowledge that to put a comment blow, I'd love to hear the thoughts on that. I would not be surprised if it is built into TGIF, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I didn't look that up, so I didn't research that before this recording. But this

is actually required for Brand Meister. And again laid out a couple of points why I don't like brandmeister in the first video, and I'm gonna do more of that coming up, so let's go. My original reply to that was, every digital mode needs this. D Starr and y sef use a call sign. DMR uses a number. If you fail to enter any of those into your radio, you

won't be able to transmit on a network. I don't see how DMR is any more complicated in others just because it uses a number rather than your call sign. That was my original reply, and today's video is going to sponsor. It's going to focus mostly on this reply from Zach lab. Now you can see this was twenty five days ago between that video. In the time, I've traded some emails with this gentleman. Well, I didn't trade emails with him, but we've gone back and forth in

here a little bit. I went to Orlando for a whole week for himcashon and I've been busy with other stuff. So but I know I wanted to make a video about this reply here. So he says, Jason, I'm jumping in from your video. I was also an amateur and DMR when it first was budding, sometime around twenty twenty ten. I'm believe I had an XPR eighty three hundred even before DMR mark came into existence. When we all did was local IP site connect and Ravennet systems hadn't even

made the sea bridge. Okay, yeah, so that's that's kind of how the system in Texas started. Also, I wasn't part of it back then, but I did some research a few years back, because I did a video at the Tapper conference five or six years ago, calling and I called it Understanding DMR Networks. So yes, I'm familiar with IP site Connect. I know a couple guys who still use it, so yeah, good to know there. I used to be one of the few with a three to five digit DMR mark ID because I wanted to

use radios on both Connect Plus and HAM Radio. We had some guys like that in our area as well. I think the point being made, and the point I would make myself, is that we're not just adding an extra step and getting on the air. It's that we're relying on a third party, a closed one that has

no governance or transparency to handle IDs for everybody. Okay, I take a little bit issue with that, but let's keep reading amateur specific modes use call signs exclusively as a now identifier something that has already been issued and guarantee unique by government entities using their delegated authorities from the ITU. There's a governing body, people smarter than us and before our time, that set a call sign fixes in stone. It delegates prefixes to countries to let them

use with subfixes they saw fit. With dMRI IDs, it's an extra step of another database registration. Worse yet, we're letting a private group of individuals control the hobby internationally for the rest of us with no accountability. I don't think DMR is more complated than the other modes because of this extra registration step, but on the reason of private, unchecked control alone, I agree with the original poster that

DMR and amateur radio is dumb. Okay, couple of things on that number one, first and foremost, Okay, welcome to the planet. Okay, everything in the world works this way. If someone creates something, or invents something, or discovers something, or brings an aspect of this topic into a new group, they set up a new way to do this, and the control aspects and the preferences and the parameters by which people use the system is set up by the

original founders or original implementers of that system. I mean, I understand what you're saying. Okay, I get what you're saying, But I why is that an issue? Okay? Why is that an issue? Those guys DMR mark was the first to create an assigned registration of IDs in DMR and amateur radio, and I wish and it's kind of a stupid thing. You have to understand that DMR was not originally designed to use it the way we use it in amateur radio. It was a design for close quarters use.

The guys ATMAR never really intended it to have like nationwide and worldwide talk groups. They never really intended to key up repeaters across such a large area. They intended it to be used in buildings maybe, and by companies or schools all within a certain city or county or state, and you could kind of link everyone together with talk groups, and you know, you had maybe a dozen talk groups. I mean, we have thousands of talk groups in DMR in amateur radio, and I dare say most of them

don't get used. But the point is that this number registration was it was obvious that when they implemented this number registration, it was never meant to assign those numbers to thousands of people, to hundreds of thousands of people. It was meant for a more of a close quarters communications system. So I would love to see an upgradeed DMR to where it implements alpha numeric numbers instead of

just numeric numbers. Because as of right now, we basically, since your repeater IDs and your talk group IDs are only up to six digits, okay, basically, you only have one hundred thousand and six digit IDs that can exist. Okay, So from zero zero zero zero zero through nine nine nine, that's one hundred thousand different IDs. So and all repeater IDs are six digits, so you've only got six You've only got one hundred thousand of those that can exist

in the world. Even more stringent than that is, all of the repeaters in the United States, maybe in North America start with a three to one, so that limits it even more. Okay, so you're gonna run out of IDs and talk group numbers at a certain point in time because guess what, there's just a limited system. If we had alpha numeric we could combat that issue, and we could assign call signs, which are already alphanumeric. Case five HWB is an alpha numeric call sign, and we

could implement that, and we could start naming. We could start putting IDs or call signs into radios, We could start putting call signs into repeaters and in the different parameters and everything like that. So I would be one hundred percent in favor of something like that. But the original point mentioned see this, This is zach Labs guy.

He's getting off in a little bit of a tangent here, and it's not that I really disagree with what he's saying, But the original point was that the original poster made DMR's ID because you have to use a number or you get blocked in the network. Well, first of all, as I said a minute ago, that's not actually true. That's only true on Brandmeister. I can input a number and use it on seabridge all day long. I can input the number one two, three foot five and use

it on seabridge all day long. There's nothing on the sea bridge that blocks unregistered numbers. Because the sea bridge is not tied physically or virtually to RADIOID dot net at all. I can take I can do a data dump from radioid dot net and load it into my sea bridge, or I can just delete everything out of my sea bridge as far as radio IDs go, and people can use it with whatever radios or whatever ID they have. Okay, there's nothing on a sea bridge that

limits that. Brandmeister limits it. But again, in the first video, I talked about several things I didn't like about Brandmeister, and I'm gonna e on that in later video. So again I see where you're coming from, but you're you're kind of you're taking it in a different direction than what the original comment said and what I was replying to with that video. He goes on to say, down here he gives a brief history which I already knew all

this stuff about how DMR mark came into existence. They had dci K four, USD Turbo six NorCal NJ Turbo n E D E c N. I wasn't familiar with that, and that one following right behind us would tell their areas to use the same IDs from DMR Mark. DMR Mark m a RC is the Motorola Amateure Radio Club. Motorola likes to tell you they invented DMR they didn't. They were one of the early adopters of DMR, and they added IP site connect to the repeaters, which is kind of like an addition to the layer of DMR,

But they didn't invent DMR. DMR is an open standard developed by European Telecommunications in two thousand and five. I think it was Motorola was an early adopter of DMR, but they didn't invent it. So he goes on here to talk about how the history of the DMR mark IDs was used, and then this paragraph right here is interesting. DMR mark was using usids starting with the elevens instead of thirty one's. Was also about the time GDPR came into play.

That's when Brandmeister made his fuss, made a fuss about both. Eventually, in twenty twenty, DMR mark CCS seven let Brandmeister take over, and I think he's talk about Radio ID. Yeah, take over and have their way with RADIOID dot net. But it's the same problem again. Brandmeister is controlled by Select FOREW who ran Fast Forwards. No real governess, no transparency,

another private group of individuals controlling to hobby internationally. Why would you jump from a leaking ship right onto another one that's going to take the same water again in the future. Okay, well, my first video once again was about how I didn't like brandmeister. So I don't know who you're arguing with right here, but I mean, I see what you're saying. I do disagree with you, but

that's you're not arguing a point that I made. Okay, another thing he says up here, there was never any governance or transparency, just a good old boys club who took all the chairs because they got to the party first. Again, I must state, welcome to the planet. That's how everything works. Everything in the history of the world works that way, whether it's good, bad, right or wrong. I'm not saying

I'm just saying that's how it works. The people who get their first set up parameters, and everybody else uses that parameter until someone else comes along and says we should update this and change it, which I would be one hundred percent in favor of. I have no problem with that. But the but the fact of registering a dmr ID and using it in your radio to get onto a network is not It's not a hard and complicated process. It's not really a good old boys network

because guess what anyone can read. All you have to do is have a valid amateur radio call sign and upload a copyer license, which again I think you should already have. I made that point in the first video, so I'm not gonna make it again. Okay, I think you are should already. I think everyone should have a copy of their amateur radio license and have it displayed in their hamshack or the vehicle, or one in your pocket. Okay, So again I'm not going to go into that again.

But that is I don't understand why it's so difficult to use an ID instead of a call sign. So he goes on to talk about p twenty five here in a minute, and I want to read a couple of the things he says there. Again, I don't really I'm not really arguing with this person, this zach Labs person, don't. I don't think he's wrong, He's just taken it in a different direction than what I was originally talking about. First, let me tell you about today's sponsor. Once again, we're

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video right here. Basically his last kind of thought process here was I don't use DMR anymore if I can help it. When I do, it's usually for a public service event. We're use local repeaters directly linked to each other with iPSC or similar no bridges involved. I use an ID issued by non amsure system, not even a

less than FIVEG it issued by DMR, Mark Brandmeister. Brandmeister does an issue id's you talk about radioid dot net and Glenn at radioid dot net doesn't have anything to do with Brandmeister directly, although Brandmeister does limit the people that can use their network. But again, get me started on how much I don't like Brandmeister. Okay, so you

don't have that problem with the sea bridge. Now, this right here is a little bit I don't want to call I don't want to say hypocritical, but I think it kind of shoots yourself in the foot right here. I still use P twenty five to this day, before the XDS clone amateurs used to use whatever numeric ID for amateur radio since Astros P twenty five supported Astroid's soft id's around the same time. Do you mark mente existence.

I've been using that to transmit call sign over the air, which not only solves ID but also means the numeric ID doesn't even matter anymore. So you can totally do that over a sea bridge. Now you're probably gonna get people coming back to you and say, dude, your id's not right, just like I made a video a while back about calling a QRZ on a PODA and never ID properly. So that's gonna be a thing if you

don't use a proper ID. But the point is that you're not blocked by a sea bridge if you use a five digit connect plus ID or just some made up random number. The C bridge does not block you. Brandmeister blocks you, but not the seed bridge. Okay, he says, I never really use d star a fusion, But DMR remains the only amateur LMR mode where you can transmit an Alphameric where you can't transmit an Alpha America ID

for a call sign alongside with your voice calls. That's the reason on top of privately controlled numbering makes me feel d MAR is not well suited for the amateur radio to begin with. Okay, you know what, I don't agree with you, but I understand what you're saying. I understand what you're saying there. That's fine. Somewhere else in this article, somewhere, this is the same article I had

in the last video. Somewhere else in this article, someone mentioned, well, since you're transmitting your call sign on system Fusion and d STAR, you don't have to ID. That's not true.

That's not true. When digital voice modes first came around, it was and especially Fusion, because Fusion is twelve and a half killer hurts and if you use digital narrow DN mode, then it puts it splits it into two six point twenty five killer hertz channels, and it uses voice for one of those channels, and it transmits your GPS and call sign on the second channel. Okay, DMR uses voice for bow channels. That's why it's more efficient

with the use of a frequency. So now you can have a repeater with two different conversations going on and only one registered frequency pair for your repeater. Okay, Fusion doesn't do that. Fusion uses digital narrowde primarily, but you can use VW, which is voice wide, which so your voice takes up the entire twelve and a half killer her it's narrowband spectrum. But on regular digital narrow mode you have half voice and half GPS and data transmissions

which includes your call sign. But the FCC a while back said no, that's not a valid ID. You still have to verbally id yourself on system fusion. Do people do it? I don't know. I don't really care. Okay, but if you're saying, well, we don't need to do that anymore because we're transmitting our call sign, that's just a state that that's a false statement. That is just absolutely not true. But I understand what you're saying. I understand what you're saying. I don't necessarily disagree with what

you're saying. Again, I think you took it in a different direction that I was originally replying to. And okay, but I would be one hundred percent in favor of updating DMR somehow, somehow in amateur radio, implementing a new phase in a DMR where you can use alpha numeric IDs, and in implementing call signs, I would be totally, totally fine with that. Again, my original point was, you still need that call sign in your radio to transmit over a d Star network or over a wires X network. Okay,

not over a fusion repeater. There's a difference there. Over the wires X network and over a d Star network, you still have to have a valid call sign in your radio. So in DMR you have to have a valid ID number to transmit over Brand Meister, but on a sea bridge it doesn't matter. And I've got a whole video. I've got a talk I created like six years ago that compares DMR DMR networks and it talks about the C bridge versus Brandmeister versus DMR plus versus

tgi F versus a couple other things. I mean, I try to I try to be as opening to my audience as I can, but I've never liked Brandmeister. I still don't like it today, and I've got a bunch of points about why I think Seabridge versus Brandmeister Seabridge is better. So maybe I'll make an update. Would you like to see an update to that video? What do

you guys think about this? Do you think the ID system and quite frankly, I've been I've been in DMR for about twelve years now, and I've not really ever heard any grumbling about people not wanting to do DMR just because of the ID. I've hear a plethra of excuses, many excuses about why people don't like DMR. Some of them are valid, some of them not so much. But I hear a lot of excuses, but I don't remember ever hearing the ID being a huge issue. So what

do you guys think? Are you not using DMR because you have to register an ID? Is that your reasoning? I would like to hear from you. I would like to hear how many people actually think that put a comet blow. Thanks for watching today.