Hello everyone, and welcome to another hacking leadership leadership author podcast in our new series that we're doing. We're extremely excited. We've had so many great interviews and great conversations with some amazing leaders who also happen to be leadership authors. And as we've said, you know, Chris and I have done a lot of put on top, put a lot of time and effort and to make sure that we're vetting some of our guests that we feel really great
about their content. So as always, we will ask you to not only enjoy the show, but please click on the links in the podcast show notes, check out their content, by their books, subscribe to their podcast and newsletters because we're taking a lot of great inspiration from the content here. And today we're extremely excited to talk to Phil Geldart, the founder and CEO of Eagles Flight, which is a recognized authority in the areas of transforming organizational culture, leadership development,
and experiential training solutions. So again, these are all things that speak to our heart and we just want to say welcome to the show.
Phil, Hey, Lorenzo, thank you Mouseful.
It's a lot, right, a lot, Hey, You've deserved it, though, a lot of work that you've done here, which is absolutely amazing. We're going to spend today talking about Phil's book here leading what matters most and what I will tell you. I love this because this is a way of talking about leadership that I have quite honestly not seen in this type of a platform before. It's a full book around leadership development through a story that's being explained,
and it's like a fiction work here. But the way that it tracks in the book and the things that are spoken about obviously come from real life experience. You can just tell in reading it that these things really hit home in some spaces there. But maybe Phil, can you just talk to this a little bit about like why this approach to this leadership book?
Yeah, great, Lorenzo, I'm happy to do that. Thanks a lot for having me. I think there's a lot of books on leadership, in fact that I've written a few myself that are tend to be more like manuals or case sets, and I feel that the real challenge if you're trying to be a great leaders Okay, but what do I do? Like in practice? I get the theory, I get the you know, you've given me the recommendations, and I know what other people do, but I honestly feel that leaders wrestle with the day to day. But
what do I do differently? And so I thought trying to put it into the context of a story, so you could identify with the main character. You go, Okay, I could do that, or I could do that. That's not that complicated. So I chose that approach to try to help the reader feel like they can implement it. Does that makes sense?
Absolutely? No, I love it because I think that to your point, a lot of times, as I consume you know, books, audio books, media, ted talks, you know, whatever we might have out there, sometimes it can feel very theoretical, and as you're reading and consuming it, you're thinking about, well, how what does that do? How does that look? Does that make sense to me? Versus a read like this,
which is like a story. And now I feel like I'm a part of this journey and I'm asking the same questions that the characters asking and I'm looking for the same solutions, and it's just it was a very different experience from a from from somebody who's consuming the content. For me.
Yeah, well, let me give you an example. Right early in the book, Bridget, who's my ficational CEO, wants to make a transformation and she chats with the consultant and the consultant says, okay, well, how committed are you and she I'm committed, he said, but how committed are you?
Really?
She said, what do you mean? And he begins to say to her, well, you have to make sure your executive team are on board, and she says, well what does that mean? So then he says, well, if they're not on board, you've got to be willing to let them go. Let them go. So they have this dialogue, and I feel, you know, very often we talk about, well, the senior management needs to be committed to the outcome.
Everybody nods sagely, but they don't appreciate that to be committed to an outcome to transform an organization is an all or nothing commitment. You have to model it, you have to be there front and center, you have to use the language. And so in trying to explain that to her, she begins to understand in practice what it means to have senior management commitment. And then I'm hoping that the reader would say, Okay, I can make a decision for myself. How committed am I to this transformation?
So it allowed me to bring to life the real practicalities of what it would take to make change.
Yeah, And I love that. And in a recent interview you talked about this idea of like, hey, if I mean asked to make a change, if I'm going to have some trust established and making change, is my boss doing this? Right? Is their boss doing this? And it kind of goes all the way up that way. And I love that how you broke that down, because that's the important thing is like if you're if you're asking people to go through a change, how are you working yourself to the change curve? How are you as the
leader role modeling these types of behaviors? And then can you honestly put your hand up and say that and say like, no, no, I am doing the things that I know I'm asking my people to do, and I'm showing them that I'm flexible, that I'm learning agile. You know, am I sharing with them maybe even my emotions or my thoughts and going through this change as a means of being transparent with my feelings so that they can kind of align with me. So I love that you
kind of brought that up. Did that come from kind of experience going into the book or is this something that as you were writing the book you kind of uncovered this nugget that you wanted to highlight.
No, I've known this for a long time. We've done a lot of culture transformations, and I mean we, I say we Eagle Flight the company that I v The big issue is very often helping senior management understanding their role in the journey. So I've had to go through the discussions that consult mad with Bridget many times, and I think, you know, you put your finger though on a critical point. If I could just elaborate for a bit. If I'm coming to work and I'm I'm working in
a warehouse and I'm moving the boxes. My supervisor is maybe like three years older than me and had the job before I did. But as far as I am concerned, that supervisor is my leader and he represents the company or she, I may never get to see the CEO and the executives who are really committed to the transformation.
I look at my immediate boss. What is she doing and what she does I do, so I model on her, and if I'm having trouble, I look for her to come and say, Okay, here's what you need to do differently, So she's got to be there to coach me. So this idea of the leader having to set the example and to also be skilled to coach me to follow that example puts huge pressure on the organization to then
train that supervisor. And I think that very often organizations don't fully understand that your frontline leaders are generally not trained to do this kind of thing. They're trained to be good on process, they're good on policy, they're good on dealing with customers, they deal with their functional area well. But you have to start right at the most senior level and say what do I want you to do or do differently in order to demonstrate the behavior we
want everybody to do. And you've got to cascade that all the way down and it's a lot of work. But if you get it right, then you know that every leader is actually able to model on their own leader, and so you begin to see that behavior change. So your point is critical. I'm just not sure most organizations understand what it takes to do it. Yeah.
No, I love that because I've always believed in the same thing as like the kind of the impact of your day to day is really your experience at work is really impacted by two levels above your boss and your boss's boss. To your point, right, that is ninety five percent of what you experience. So so if you look at it that way, then they really become the manifestation of the organization's values and structure and expectations, and all these things come to life for that person in
those two levels of leadership. So that's extremely important. I love that you highlight that and and you kind of walk through that, and then I think, to your point, it's like I think a lot of organizations and leaders and organizations understand that concept and they would say, Phil, one hundred percent, you're right. And then the next question is how do I do it? And then and then how do I build work systems where I can validate that it's actually happening?
Right?
And I think what I liked about the book is that there's kind of like this flow of not just the here's the question, here's the answer, but then here's the work. Oh, oh, here's here's the issue. Something else, there's another thing that popped in here that that's a problem. And then I love even like at the line where it was like towards the end of the book and you know, no spoiler alerts here, but but hey, hey
there's an issue and we're on top of it. And I think her response is, I know you are you like, we've gone through this full journey now where we've built this element of confidence and capability at the same time, which I think is so so apparent in there. But I think also, as you've done this over the years, and as you've discovered this as the thing, maybe what is that first thing that you would say to a leader who is trying to have the same journey that you've got in the book here.
Yeah, I know this is not going to be your typical answer, but the very most important thing is to sit with the leadership, and I mean at every level and say you have responsibility for the lives and careers and performance of human beings. They are adults. They leave your job and you know, they're on boards and committees and they're raising families, and you are the one that in their job life they look to you and you have this tremendous potential that you can lead and nurture.
And I try to help leaders understand that Leadership is begins with valuing the potential in every human being. If you simply treat the person for all, right, I pay them to do this job, and they do the job. Even if they do it well, you forget the fact they could do a lot more. I mean, in five years they're probably going to be a manager and then five years later that they're going to be a director. They have that potential. So leadership begins with saying, my
job is to release that potential. And that is actually not one hundred percent altruistic. If you go to a board and say, okay, what am I paying you to be a leader? I mean, how much do I pay you? How much am I paying my leaders? And how much am I paying my employees? Are you getting the best out of them? Because if you're not, then why aren't you? Because I'm paying the salaries, I expect the very best. But many leaders say, well, firstly, that's a foreign concept.
I'm being paid to release human potential and secondly, I have no idea how to do it. But Lorenzo, it's interesting. If you think of the best leaders you've ever worked for, you perform better, they get the best out of you. Okay, I got to be like one of those people. I want to be a best leader because I know for myself I perform better for a great leader. So that then makes it much easier to go to an organization and say, Okay, we've codified what makes a great leader.
We will teach them. You got to make sure that they apply what we teach.
I love that, Phil, and I want to go deeper into this concept of releasing human potential, but first I want to give it up for a few of our sponsors. Okay, so welcome back. We're talking to Phil here, and I want to dive deeper into this idea of releasing human potential. And you kind of were talking about this before the break, but as you explain this concept and the importance of it, which I completely agree with, and maybe people say they want to but then their actions don't show you that
they're going to do it. I would love to know more about that, Like do you feel that's an element of not wanting to give up controlled? Is it ego? Is it protecting opportunities because they feel that others, when empowered and emboldened, maybe able to take their role. Like what do you feel are the things that are stopping some of the leaders from releasing the actual human potential.
Yeah, that is a great question, and I think your average listener would immediately jump to, well, you know, they don't want to give up control. It's their ego. I don't really think that's it for the majority. And let me see if I can paint a mental picture for you. Think of a rectangle, vertical rectangle, and at the bottom of this you have me just getting into the job. My first job, I'm digging ditches out on the construction crew, and then I get promoted. And as I'm moving up
that sort of vertical rectangle a little bit. As I get promoted, I got a guy working for me, but I'm still now I'm on the back home. Then I get promoted again and I'm operating the back hobe, and I'm also doing a little bit of hiring because now I'm a lead hand. But as I progress through my career, I'm moving and keeping being promoted because of my competence functionally.
I'm good on the road, I'm good with the equipment, I'm good at dealing with the contractors, and I keep getting promoted until ultimately I become a VP of construction or something. But if you go back to that the base. In my first job, I was all functional and my only interpersonal relationships I had a beer with the boys
at the end of the day. By the time I'm kind of like the foreman, I'm still eighty five percent functional, but I'm fifteen percent only now I got to kind of deal with a couple of problems when the guys are showing up late. So as my career progresses, I move from being primarily functionally driven to being more people centric, and by the time I get to a VP, I can't even remember where the key to the bacco is and I'm just dealing with people problems all the time.
But the reason I tell that is because each promotion is based on functional competence. I know how to do stuff with things, so I naturally take those skills and apply them to managing people. I treat people like things, right, because that's my career, until ultimately I suddenly realize people aren't things. The way I'm managing them doesn't work anymore because they're actually But by then I'm so far into my career I've not been equipped to manage people differently.
So what you see is it's not that I don't value that you have potential. I don't know how to do that. I think of you as a machine of it. It wouldn't be that course, but that is really what it is. And so I'm managing you the only way I know how to manage anything. Why you do this, you get that output. If it doesn't work, you fix it, as opposed to Early in my career, I was taught how to communicate effectively, how to give feedback with respect, how to take feedback and not be offended by it.
So very often when I'm working with an organization, say look, guys, I appreciate you don't have the skills to release you with potential. But it's not malicious. It's not that you don't want it. You've just never wrapped your head around that. So let me help you with that. I mean, they typically say, okay, that's great. And once you see the benefit, Lorenza, once you get the power of the people coming to you and giving you all that they have, you go, man,
where has this been all my life? And so they migrate to it. So that it's more about recognizing the leaders are not poor leaders by intent or by conscious choice. It's by circumstance and we have to jump in and deal with that deficiency, and most of the time they embrace it and you get the benefit.
Yeah, I love that you were talking through it. I imagine in most all jobs and industries, you know, you hire someone to be a specialist, and then you teach them how to become that specialist. And then as they continue to your point, you know, navigate their career and advance up, they become more specialists at different things, but they being a generalist with humans is different than being a generalist when it comes to like, you know, verticals
of specialized things that you have to do there. So you mentioned this earlier in the show, but like that idea of like, what are we teaching those at that level to better collaborate, to understand how do you work through and managed to conflict, how do you create spaces of healthy debates, and how do you have them understand that that. I think to truly be able to empower people, you have to feel empowered yourself, you know, you kind
of have to. You have to experience that in a way that allows you to then create the space to make that happen.
Absolutely, And you know, it's interesting because I'll talk with leaders and they go, okay, Phil, I get it. I get it. You know, I'll master this. And then they get their feedback forms and they go, well, baby over here thinks I'm great. Fred thinks I'm terrible. How is that possible? I'm the same guy. And I think it's because they do not understand that human beings are different, so you can't treat them all the same and you
can't expect them to all be like you. You as the leader, have to learn to adapt, and we have in our communication course we talk about style, fact and passion. So if I'm going to deal with somebody, what is their style? How much do they like fact and how much do they like passion? And that formula changes for
every human being. So as a leader, I the leader, have to change and when I do, then all my feedback forms come back saying I'm great because not because the person has changed, but I have learned to adapt. And I do that because I want to get at the potential and therefore I'm willing to make the changes in my behavior that I need to optimize their contribution. Yeah.
I love that. And you also mentioned this in an interview and it's kind of this idea that you know, you want to write a book to help organizations leverage the fact that people want to give more. So like this whole thing is baked in. People want to give more, they're looking for reasons to do it, and in the organization, and the leaders of the organization have to find ways to to want them to do that by again, by role modeling that type of thing. But tell me what,
tell me more about that? Like what do you mean when when you're so when you're when you're when you're very confident in knowing that people want to give more?
Yep, uh, Well, most people want job security. Typically they want either advancement or certainly quality of life, and therefore they want their organization to succeed. So Lake, if I'm I'm gonna work, I'm gonna do my best work. If my boss doesn't let me do my best work, I get frustrated, and that's part of the problem. So I think there is there's sort of an inherent desire to do well and that can be killed easily if your
boss is a bit of a not supportive. But the moment you work for someone who causes that to flourish, then you jump into that. Now the challenge is a great leader defines the sandbox the employee. So the sandbox means I will help you determine as much freedom as I can give you where you are not overly. You don't have too much freedom, and therefore you could put something at risk, or you don't have enough freedom, and therefore you get frustrated. So let's define your freedom of
authority in your job. Someone comes to you to rent a car and the car is not there. Can you give them another car? Can a discount? Like what's your freedom of authority? And then the person goes, Okay, I now know the sandbox that I can play and I'm not always worried that I'm going to but my job as at least and then you know what, let's talk about increasing your sandbox. How can I help you grow so you can make more decisions have a bigger impact.
And you see that particularly especially in the service industry, where you're dealing with clerks and sometimes you know they've got no authority, know they want to help you, but the organization has not given them the environment that allows that, and you can see how frustrated they are. As opposed to other companies where they're there, they want to help, and their sandbox size has been so well defined they know what they can do. And as a customer, I think, man,
I really like you. I'm coming back here again. But it's the same person. It's just that one organization has done nothing around the sandbox definition and the other has done a great job at defining it and growing it. And that, I think is how you get in practice what you're looking for.
I love that. I think you know, there's a lot of articles over the years around Zappos when they first started, and kind of that concept of like whatever it takes to take care of the customer, and yes, we sell shoes, somebody wanted to order a pizza, We'll figure that out, you know. But like to your point, you know what I mean, likes there's that element. And I was talking to someone else the other day about the idea of
the sandbox again, and she had a great analogy. She's like, well, you know that there's gonna be stand that's gonna spill over into the box next to yours, right, and then real leaders will understand that and they will help people to like how do I open a door there? How do we allow some of that sand to flow back and forth and as we yeah, as we create partnership. So that's fantastic. Well, Phil, I really want to thank
you for the time. I would love to, you know, let the people know where can they get more information from you? Where should they go to buy the book and buy some of the other books that you've got there. And then the organizations. We have a lot of C level executives that listen to the show that constantly write into us. How can they contact you around doing some of this work with their organizations?
Wow? Great question, Thank you. You can find out about the company through Eaglesflight dot com, so Eagle like thebird, eglesflight dot com, and you can find out about me at Phil Geldart dot com. But if you go to eagles Flight dot com you'll find me so very awesome.
Thank you Phil again, I really appreciate it, and we ask all of our listeners to please click the links, check it out, get the content. I know, if you're listening to our show, as you have for a lot of years, you're pouring into your own development and books like this, concepts like this, partners like this that can help you and help your business get better or why we exist and why we do this show. So again, thank you everyone for listening, Thank you Phil for the time.
We're going to continue this dialogue on our pillars and pitfalls a series here over at Lionsgot Academy dot com. We'll talk to you all next time.
Take care by now