Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo. And Lorenzo on this episode, I want to talk about feedback, but specifically feedback when it comes to the employees or the people on your teams who usually do things well, the high performing individuals. I think sometimes we do a disservice to our high performing individuals in terms of the feedback that we give them or don't give them because we're focusing on you know, you'll saying the squeaky wheel
gets the grease. The employees who are not doing the right things all the time tend to get a lot of the feedback, and I think that we can, you know, we can miss some opportunities when it comes to our high performing individuals when it comes to having, you know, kind of giving better feedback, more effective feedback. Yeah.
I think it's a great topic because I think about this on two sides of the table. The first side of the table was like, there are points in my life, especially as like an individual contributor, where I was that high performing employee. Sure, as a high performed employee, I I'm not gonna lie. I kind of liked the fact that I was left alone I would roll my eyes sometimes if somebody would come over and try to like spend time with me around like, well, like let's go
through this, uh, this this, you know sop assessment. Let let me ask you some questions around you know how you do these things? And I'm just like I've got it all memorized. I know exactly what to say. I do good work, like you know, I also know that like if I am producing as an individual contributor and then you do an assessment on me, well your assessment better be good because you know, how do you how do you work through the fact that I'm getting the
outcomes that you want? And so I think it's a good topic because as a person in that seat sometimes I didn't feel that it was valued if it was approached in a certain.
Way right right.
And then on the other side of it, as a leader, I would tell you completely guilty sometimes of absolutely saying like when you have a high performing person on your team, there can definitely be situations where it's just like I I'm just gonna let Chris do his thing because I
got other things I gotta work on. Yeah, and like like this and I'll check in with Chris and I'll make sure he feels good, but at the end of the day, like he's probably not going to get my intentional attention as much as he should because I have
other things that are going on. So I've seen it on both sides there, and so I think it's important to talk about because if you if we want to have the context of like keeping high performing employees high performing, then we have to have a very deliberate strategy and intention around how we're doing that and how we're helping them.
And as I kind of planned the seat earlier when I said, like certain approaches when I was an individual contributor, because I can tell you that I did get some constructive feedback and coaching from leaders and from other individuals when I was high performing, based upon the way they approached it and the respect that they had to the fact that I kind of had these other things under control. I didn't feel like I was getting constructive feedback like
every body else. I felt that I was getting constructive feedback specific to me, my knowledge, my capability, recognizing what I do well, but then diving deeper into some of the things to some of the stuff.
Right for sure, you know, I when you talk about the situation where you know somebody coming you get tret attempting to give you feedback. It's like, I've had this, and honestly, it it comes from ego or it I don't know if it comes from ego or if or if the situation has it's unavoidable that that situation can
lead to anything other than ego. It's like, I do you you hear positive feedback when you're first starting out and you and you get, you get all the feedback you're given is positive, and then people stop, you know, people start leaving you alone and they stop giving you feedback because you're doing everything right. How does that not lead to a little bit of an ego? And then and then you start there and then in the absence of feedback, because you've done everything right, you that ego
builds up. And then if somebody does come to want to give you feedback on something, there's almost this air of superiority almost like who are you to give me feedback? Right? And it's like that's a very unhealthy place to be in a relationship between a leader and an employee if that's where it's arrived, and it's completely avoidable, if it's
done the right way from the very beginning. It's because because feedback is a constant cycle, and it's a constant loop of a relationship that occurs between a leader and an employee, and it happens regardless of whether an employee is doing something wrong. You don't have to wait for an employee to do something wrong to have a conversation
with them about about feedback and about getting better. There are things you can discuss with employees all the time that can essentially lead the employee to at least have this sense of there's a relationship here. There's me and there's my leader, and we have a working relationship and these and we have conversations and they happen period, they happen on a rhythm, and we're going to have those conversations regardless, and sometimes there's going to be feedback that
I need to work on. Sometimes there's not going to be, but we have those conversations. It's it's when you stop having them altogether that's starting them up again. When something is needed becomes really awkward and really difficult, and that's when the leaders go, you know what, I'm just gonna let Chris do his thing and we're going to go talk to other other employees instead. Yeah.
No, it's a great point in you're spot on, and that's exactly what ends up happening. I think is that it becomes if you're not having this consistency in how you you know, talk to your people and how you evaluate their performance and how you provide constructive feedback, if you don't have that really solidified and kind of built into you know, built built with more intention than just kind of like it's going to happen naturally. We tend
to do that. We tend to build it with intention when we know we have to address things that are from from not high performing employees or things that you know, opportunity. He's in the business like, we have a lot more intention when we have to go do something to change something and get something that's a different output than we've
been getting. What we tend to see is that we don't have that same level of rigidness to our intention around you know, feedback, you know, coaching, teaching, follow up, validation, assessment. We don't do all of that until we absolutely have to. We don't have it as an ongoing thing, and I think then it feels very foreign. It feels weird. It feels like, Okay, what's going on now? Oh you know what,
like yep, you know, here comes Chris. Chris is gonna come talk to us about what's going on because it's the first week of the month and we know that that's when Chris has to go around and talk to everybody about, you know, last month and what's happening versus Oh hey, here comes Chris. You know, hey, you know what's going on? And you know, we know that we're going to talk something about you know, our personal stuff, something about business. We're gonna have a good conversation and
dialogue here. But a part of it's going to be like, is there something that you know he can help me with. I know Chris is gonna come over here and say, hey, I just want to give you some, you know, some recognition on something that I saw some continued work here. Really appreciate kind of the streak of consistency you have. Also, let's dig in a little bit here right in this
space to talk to me about this. Talk to me about something that you feel you want to refine or get better at that will help you continue to have this level of high performance or Chris can say, hey, great job with all of this. I noticed that there's a couple of things that may may maybe something you want to take a look at. Let's take a look at these things together. You know, are these outcomes or is this approach Is this reflective of you know, the
outcomes that you want. Is this reflective of your best body of work? Is there something in here that you'd like to see be better or to be more improved upon? And I can show you the data and here's where your data is, and here's where the rest of the team is, or here's where this is versus the deadline.
So you know, you stepping into this consistent dialogue and conversation around allowing someone to when it comes to what they're focused on, what they're working on, but also providing them with data points and information that allows them to see, you know, even if they don't maybe see it themselves, they can see where they are maybe having an opportunity
where they need to close a gap on something. But if Chris builds that continuously, and I know that that's going to be a part of our you know, pretty normal conversation. It has less to do whether if I'm high performing or not but it does respect the fact if I am high performing in the approach that he has.
Right. Well, let's talk about the assumptions here, because when you're talking through that, I'm thinking, Okay, why as a leader would I choose not to give feedback to a person who is high performing? And I think what it comes down to is it's almost like an assumption that if if I see a person on my team who is a low performer do something that is incorrect that requires feedback, my knee jerk is to think, oh, that low performing employee is doing something low performing, we need
to discuss that. And if it comes from a high performing employee, the knee jerk is to think, oh, that high performing person did something that is not high performing. That's weird. I guess that must be a fluke. Let's let it go because it must be a It's not indicative of the larger performance, the larger person as a whole, so we don't need to discuss that. Why why bring them down with feedback on something that was clearly not
indicative of who they are as a person. Right? And then what happens is the person who was that high performing individual doesn't get that feedback and it wasn't a fluke. It continues. But the next ten times it happens, you just aren't there to notice it happening. And so it happens until it gets to the point where it is a habit and it becomes part of what they actually do.
And and if there are other people watching or other leaders kind of watching, they kind of do the same thing and they go, well, it's just a fluke, you know. And if you but but if the low performing person does it again, you think, Okay, that's indicative of a low performing individual. Clearly that person needs feedback. We go give them feedback and then we move forward with it. And so this, this kind of this is how you turn a high performing employee into a low performing employee.
Is the lack of consistent feedback rhythm. And if you have that consistent feedback rhythm, and it doesn't have to be predictable, I'm not saying that if it's to the point where the employees are rolling their eyes going, you know, here here comes Lorenzo again. It's the first week of the month. We're gonna have that conversation again. That's that's not effective. Just doing it and going through the motions
isn't effective, right. You have to have a reason for talking to the person, And if you don't have a specific reason for talking to the person, it's okay to say to them at the beginning of that conversation, Hey, just so you know, I don't really know what we have to talk about right now. In terms of the feedback. You're doing a great job, but is there anything I can support you with on, you know, getting you know your goals. Also part of my job as a leader
is I have to have these conversations. So I don't want you to think that i'm you know, when I say to you, I'm interested in getting you success and support and helping you, you know, get to the next step. I really mean that. Just because I'm having this conversation with you at this time because it was scheduled, doesn't mean I don't care about that. It means that I'm responsible as a leader to do these things. But I still like doing them. I like doing them with you
because I think you're a high performing employee. What can I do to help you get to the to the next level. And so it's only a problem when the employee thinks that you're going through motions and you don't actually want to be there. If you tell them what it is, if you tell them exactly why you're there and what it is, then you remove all the smoke and mirrors from it and it just becomes a conversation between two people who are being real with each other.
And if you have that kind of a relationship with employee, I think that the feedback conversations that eventually have to happen they are far more smooth. And as a leader, you don't kind of get that feeling in the pit of your stomach when you have to have one going, oh, maybe should do I really have to have that one? No, because you have a good relationship with that person. You talk to them every month and you and you know it's good.
Go well, absolutely, And with that it brings us this episodes one minute Hack. But first a few words from our sponsors.
All right, for this episode is one minute hack. Here's what wants you to do if you're a leader of people and you're finding it difficult or awkward or kind of you know, unnatural to have feedback and coaching and performance conversations with an employee because they are generally high performing and they and they generally do their job really well. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to start those conversations from a standpoint of what they
can teach you. And so if you don't know how to develop a feedback with them, with a person, to kind of get into that place where you can have great conversations so that when you can, when you have to deliver constructive feedback, it becomes more easily and more naturally. Then the conversations you have with that person have to start with, Hey, I notice you're doing this really well. I want other people to do it well too. Help
me do that. How do you do this well? Tell me how you do this and how you get these performance results so well consistently, so that we can help, you know, translate that to the rest of the team members who aren't doing it well. Hey, would you like to be a part of that? Would you like to help me teach other people? Whether or not they say yes, that's fine, it's still your job as a leader to
get other people performing at that high level. And so really being able to dig into how that person is able to do it one, it will validate they're doing it ethically, that they're doing it without cutting corners. They're doing it, you know, with the behaviors that are supposed to happen and not just trying to get the number.
And two, it will allow you to have an open conversation with an employee that makes them feel good about what they're doing well, and that develops that relationship of a rhythm in terms of feedback, so that if something comes up where they do have to have constructive feedback, it's not awkward at all because you have a relationship with them that is rooted in that feedback rhythm.
Yeah, I think it's a great woman to hack. And I know I kind of alluded to this earlier, but that approach around understanding and again it's one thing if Chris is a high performing employee and is showing that through behaviors and outcomes over a consistent amount of time. Like my approach is exactly what you kind of talked about, which is like number one, let's recognize the work. Number two, what can I learn as a leader in this space?
What are things that I can see that I can figure out and maybe maybe I.
Know what they are.
Maybe I helped to develop Chris. Maybe Chris has taken some of the things that I've taught him and he's figured out ways to make his own. But it's important the number one I recognize it. Number two that I'm curious about what's going on and what am I seeing here, and that's going to allow me to have a great conversation where I'm sure I will discover an opportunity or something that we can talk through or things that we can ideate on together that may be helpful in refining.
And again, we tend to think of, you know, criticism and just kind of like coaching in this like extremism aspect of like, well, if I'm going to be critical or give constructive feedback, it's like because it's just it's a horrible thing that needs to be addressed. No, constructive
feedback can be small things of refinements. Constructive feedback can be small like different approaches of ways of working that are not trying to like close the gap between being a massive underperformer to them being great, Like like it's it's just intentional dialogue and time to help Chris get better. Now, if Chris is an underperformer, that conversation may look a little bit different. I might lead more with curiosity I'm bringing to lead more with Hey, let's review this together.
What do you see? What do I see? What are some things here? You know, where are things like? Maybe maybe we can we can you know, go back and forth a little bit. I can, I can roll model this for you, right, Let me try and then you tell me how I did.
What did you see?
Differently? What are you learning like? It's going to be a different approach. And I think that's the main kind of element of this whole thing when it comes to understanding that number one, it has to happen for everyone, but number two, you do have to adjust the approach based upon who you have, you know, across the table from you, or you know, in the office with you, or on the floor with you.
The goal here, remember, is to have a relationship with a person like that. That's as simple as I can make it. If you have a relationship with a person that is rooted in a rhythm, that where the conversations you have are productive and there's a good relationship there, then when the feedback is needed, you don't think to yourself as a leader, maybe I'll let this one go. Maybe I'll i'll you know, I don't want to I don't want to, you know, ruffle the feathers a little bit. Oh,
Lorenzo's a high performer. We're not gonna we won't saying anything this time. All of that is all those feelings are caused by a general sense that you don't have a relationship with the person that is rooted in real conversations that are honest and where you can give bi directional feedback. If you don't feel that, that's where you get those situations where the leader doesn't want to give the feedback to the high performing individual. If you have
that relationship already, it's not even a thought. You just go have the conversation. And so the solve here, the way to do this is all about prep work and not there's no there's no magic bullet to you know, help you deliver high performing or feedback to high performers
when there isn't a relationship already. So if you want to solve this problem, you need to go back to the drawing board a little bit and begin by building that relationship so that you can start delivering feedback in a more effective way.
Absolutely, and with that it brings us to the end of this episode. This is hacking leadership. I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris and we'll talk to you all next time.