Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo.
And Lorenzo in our first episode of the new year. Twenty twenty five is off to a good start here, and I would like to talk about something that I saw in an article I was reading just this morning, and it kind of prompted me to think about things differently that we've talked about in the past.
The article isn't.
Specifically what I want to talk about, but the article
is available on the Forbes Leadership Forum. The title of the article is called Quiet Quitters Versus Loud Leaders the New Battle for Workplace Culture, and I'll post a link to it in the podcast description, but it talks about how, basically that when in the rise of quiet quitting, which is, you know, people just kind of doing just enough work to not get fired, but not really engaging and doing, you know, their best work, the response to that from a lot of leaders has been to become you know,
more engaged with the employees from a stand point of almost micromanaging, you know, so more more interactions, more scheduled meetings, more kind of impromptu tell me about your day kind of stuff, and and it is you know, kind of creating this this culture shock between the two entities, that that leads to not a solving of the problem, but in actuality, it leads to a worstening of the problem.
And I think it's important to talk about because the the what it made me think about when I read this was how, you know, we've talked about for almost a few years now, how important it is for leaders to engage with their people, to spend time with their people, that that you can't just wait for the squeaky wheel to get the grease and come to you. You need to be actively engaging with your people and having interactions
with them. You know, we talked about the the you know, even Gallup said the rise of the quality one on one is like the single biggest thing that impacts whether the leadership is affected or not. So there's so much data out there and so much advice and so many studies saying that leaders need to engage with their people. And I think what's happening is that leaders are engaging with their people, they're just not doing it in the right way.
Yeah, well, I think that, you know, again, I think that there's a lot of leaders that this is a natural part of who they are and I think that again, so one of those situations where if you are talking about the leaders that would listen to this episode, I think the vast majority of them would fall in the bucket of interacting in the right ways because this is a part of self development and growth that you would do. I think the larger thing here, though, is that not
every leader listens to this podcast. Not every leader is pouring into themselves, not every leader is thinking about what that looks like when it comes to strategies that roll out. Because to your point, this is bigger than just a team or a company, an organization and industry. This is a large kind of thing that's happening I think across the board right now, and that is this increase in and if we have a workforce that all the data
says is much more disengaged. If we have a workforce and that all the data says there are a lot of people that are kind of to your point, like quiet, quitting or just doing the bare minimum. Then the response to that is, let's create programs and strategies that increases the amount of interactions we have with them. Number one, to say, hey, can we step in here and maybe increase some engagement, like, that's the positive way of looking at it. What's the goal or the right that's the
goal for some. The other goal for some might be let's get closer and catch them doing things wrong and get rid of people that don't want to be here, Like that's just let's call it what it is, right, that's true.
Both both of those things can.
Come out of having many more interactions, and that's kind of where I think the strategies will come out from now. To your point, it comes down to the local leaders to say, Okay, if that's what you're expecting me to go do. If organizationally we're going to say this is the thing that we're going to go do to build more engagement or connect with our people.
How you go about doing that?
When you do that, your approach to that, the conversations that you're having. Those things matter so much more than just being around or just kind of feeling like you're micromanaging. Those things are critical if you're looking to actually influence culture and to engage people in the right and positive ways. I think that unfortunately what happens a lot and oftentimes is you have these strategies, you have these things implemented,
they become just checkboxes. They become a task that somebody has to go do, and then you go around and say, okay, today my task is to go check in. You know, I'm gonna go check in and hang out and talk to ten or fifteen different people. And that's just going in and doing nothing. Hey, I did it. Hey Chris, how you doing? How's things going great? How's the family awesome?
Okay? Cool? You any questions? No, great, have a great day? And I would go off.
It's inauthentic, it's not connected, it's not real. You're like, I guess what. Lorenzo's out here doing his rounds again. He's come, say hi to everybody, give you a high five, and keep it moving. And it becomes this feeling of that's not really what this intention is for. And this is not the idea of how you build uh, you know, great culture and great community and how you how you increase engagement throughout a team.
Right.
I also don't see how that would be effective in just spending more time around somebody so you can catch them doing something wrong either, right, Like that's that that's more of you know, if a leader is doing that example that you gave. I think that you can assume the positive intent at least like that they're they're they're trying to engage more with their people. They just don't know how to do it. They think that's what you're supposed to do when you engage with people, and and
you're not doing it. I know, when leaders do the thing that you talked about first, which is, you know, engaging more with people in order to catch them doing something because you think that they're not they're they're they've checked out already, and you want to hasten their departure from the organization. And that requires far more in engagement than just that, you know, Lorenzo's doing his rounds kind of thing that you won't catch anybody doing anything that way.
But but you're right, it's it's both. I think when leaders do this in that way, they don't necessarily, you know, don the moniker of micromanager. They just don the badge of inauthenticity, you know. So it's just you start thinking that your leader is not authentic because they're not engaging in a way that a normal person would interact with
you if they genuinely wanted to interact with you. You get the impression that they're interacting with you because it's their job to interact with you, not because they want to. And you know, from a personal perspective, I can say that I've had those things happened to me before, where I've judged a leader poorly for interacting with me in a way that says they're interacting with me because they have to, not because they want to, when in actuality, they did have to. That was their job to do it,
and and would we hang out if we want at work? No? So why hold them to that standard of saying they need to interact with me in a way that a friend would, you know, someone who would actually want to, you know, hang out with me and have a personal conversation, know that that is their job to do it.
But that doesn't mean it needs.
To be disingenuous or an authentic It just needs to be rooted in an acknowledgment of what the roles are here, what the expectations are, and a clarity that says, hey, I'm having this interaction with you. It is my job to do it, and that's okay, But what I want to make sure you know is that I'm interacting with you because I want to see you succeed because it's not that it's my job to hold you accountable. It's my job to hold you accountable, and it's my job
to get you to succeed. And both are possible together.
Yeah, And I think as you were talking, I was thinking through the leaders that have the natural tenen see to have the connection in this case, right, like the ones that that that lean into that side of things, really good at connecting, really good at engaging, really good at interacting, they're less of I think the concern here, right because again like greed like that that they're spending the time already, they're they're invested in that, they're prioritizing
that they're doing the things to make sure they feel well and connected with their teams. And I think that that gets a lot of grace in a lot of spaces, including when there becomes a new strategy or something that's happening where it's like, hey, increase these interactions, go connect with people.
You're like, I.
Already do that, so it's easier, right, Like it's it doesn't feel inauthentic because you're doing it when it wasn't required, Right, It's that it's the other leaders. And again, when you are not just a leader yourself, but when you're a leader of leaders, when you're when you're leading people that also lead people. This is where you really have to think about this. You can assume that just because you are great at connect you're authentic, you're doing this level
of work. You're role modeling for your leaders how they should be having these conversations, how to make them authentically like all these types of things that you're doing. This is where you now really have to validate that that what they're doing with their people is the same thing, and that it's not just your you're pouring into your leaders in the belief that they're going to go ahead
and take this and do it the right way. Right, You're going to have to trust but verify in these situations, and you're gonna have to spend more time kind of in you know, like those skip level types of conversations or connections where you're making sure that your leaders are having the same impact, the same effectiveness, the same you know, the same authenticity with their team.
Otherwise, this is where it really causes issues.
And I think this is where it starts to happen kind of as you cascade through the hierarchy of leadership roles. You know, it always gets stuck somewhere where you have a leader who doesn't have the skill sometimes will to be able to go and actually, you know, take a strategy, implement it effectively, and do it authentically. Like that's when you start to have the breakdown where you could be like, I don't understand why this is happening.
So again, if you're a leader of leaders.
This is a space where you cannot just assume that the message is landing and that the work is being done. How you are role modeling the work right, right?
So you know, I used to work with a leader who used to say that they could This was a vice president for a company in charge of, you know, several hundred retail stores, and he used to say that he could go into any store and have conversations with people for ten or fifteen minutes and know whether or not the general manager of the store was a good
general manager. And I thought, that's that's an interesting claim, and it was, but it was rooted in hundreds of instances of this of doing it over and over and over again and having the data play out, and so he wasn't wrong, and I think it, you know, it's it can be an assumption by leaders of leaders that that role modeling the behavior is all it takes for people to then effectively take the mantle and pay it forward to their people. And I'm not saying that role
modeling the behavior isn't important. It's necessary if you if you're not role modeling it yourself, no matter what you tell them to do, they're not gonna do it. You know, you need to role model it, but you also need to train it. You also need to teach it. There needs to be this assumption that it's not just about showing them how it's done, because there are things that great and engaged leaders do in those interactions that aren't
necessarily on the surface. They're not seen in a way that can be taken and run with almost like you know, we've talked many times on the show how you can't just take a tool that was used by by one place that created great culture and use that tool to create great culture in another place, because it was the culture that created the tool, not the tool that created the culture. And I think it's really along the same
lines here. There are things that truly engaged and caring and committed leaders do during those interactions that you can't necessarily take and run with by watching it. You can't be a fly on the wall watch a video interaction of this happening and go, oh great, I know how to have a great interaction. Now, there's more that happened behind the scenes in the cultivation of the relationship that that person had with you that allowed that interaction to
be good. And if you don't have that cultivated relationship, then trying to implement the same type of engagement or one on one strategy with that employee is going to fail because it will come across as disingenuous because you don't have the relationship that that person.
Had with you.
And so it's a both strategy. If you're a leader of leaders, you need to be role modeling it, of course, but you also need to be talking with your people about why these things are effective in this way and what makes them ineffective. And one of the primary causes of that lack of effectiveness is a lack of authenticity and just kind of cookie cuttering, you know, like, here's here are the ten best interactions we've seen from leaders
to people. We're gonna send these videos out to all the other leaders so that they can do with them. In that way, it's like you've already failed, right, Like the relationship that exists between the people matters, and the ten best interactions are gonna have some similarities, but they're gonna have some big differences between them, which means there isn't one way to do it, but it requires.
Authenticity absolutely, and with that it markes us in this episodes one minute Hack.
But first a few words from our sponsors.
All right, for this episode of A Minute Hack, here's what wants you to think about. If you have several members on your team and you interact with them at the same interval, you know, you know, three times a week or once a week or three times a quarter or whatever that is.
You could have two people on.
This same team where one of them views that level of engagement as micromanaging while another views it as not feeling supported. And it's important to know that each person on your team gets to define that for themselves, and so having conversations with each of them to figure out what level of engagement they're looking for from you, and to know that that doesn't mean that you can't hold
them accountable. It doesn't mean you can't you talk with them more if there's a pressing matter that needs to be discussed. But the number of times that a person gets checked in with from a standpoint of, hey, how can we help improve your skills, how can we help accomplish your goals? How can we help support your growth?
Those types of conversations need to happen on an interval that is agreed upon between you and the employee, and the employee needs to know that they can change that interval if that feels more comfortable to them, Like they can think, Okay, I think this is what I want and then after a month or two decide, you know what, that wasn't really what I I thought. It's what I wanted, but.
I'd like to change that.
And you need to be open to changing that at any time to meet the employee where they are. And again this is not for like if they do something wrong, you got to wait till you're monthly check in to talk to them. It just means that when you have conversations that relate to supporting the employee in their growth and their goals and you know, helping them engage more in their work, or if you feel like they're disengaged.
Those conversations need to happen on an interval that makes the employee feel supported and not like you're engaging inauthentically, and so talk with the employees individually, figure out what that looks like for each of them, and ask questions in those interactions, like what can we do to make your work feel more meaningful? Or how can I support
you better? But just be prepared to do the things that they ask for, Because asking the question and having no intention of following up and actually doing those things, it would have been better to not ask them to begin with than to ask in a way that leads the employee to believe that those changes will happen when you don't actually want to make those changes.
No, I think it's a great, great advice, and I would add as well that I think sometimes, as I mentioned this earlier, you get in situations where there's a expectation from the organization that you work with that there is a structure, there is an exit. You know, there's an idea of when you should be having the frequency
of these conversations. There may be be days of the week or weeks of the month, that are required for you to go and have these one on ones or these touch bases, or these connections or whatever they might be. Like a lot of times there can be this element of structure that's added to make sure that it's happening.
My advice in that space to not come across and authentic is to be transparent about that, right right, Like you know what I mean, Like tell them that, like say say, hey, you know, Chris, I know that we have had our you know, connections, you know, formally informally. I really appreciate our dialogue talking about your development.
You know.
I think that we've got a great plan in place, things that we've talked through. I know that, you know, you can come to me whenever you need to come in with any questions. I know that I can, you know, swing by and talk to you if I have some immediate you know, feedback or want to give you some immediate recognition. I do want to be clear though, it's
a part of my role in the job. The organization wants me to have these formal connections this time or these dates or in this pattern this frequency, So like I want to make sure that I'm doing that. But what I also want to make sure is that I'm not coming across as in authentic or that I have to have these conversations because the company says that I have to have them. Like what I what I What I value most to me is the dialogue that we have, regardless of when or how the strategy says I must
get them done. How you feel walking out of those is the most important thing to me. So I want to make sure that if it ever feels like it's too structured or too often, you could share that with me, but just know that we'll make sure that we have what we need so that we are also meeting the expectations of the organization. Like, that's what you got to
go do. If you feel like there's just too much structure and and and clarity around what you have to do, tell the team exactly what's going on and make sure they understand so they don't get caught up in just thinking that, oh wow, now the RRENS wants to talk to me every other week, this is weird. What's going on here? Like tell them that.
Right, No, I think that's spot on it. It's great advice because, you know, let's be honest, the structure that is put in place by organizations is rooted in a lack of good leadership interactions to begin with. Right, So you start out with you know, less rules and less structure, and then you see where the chips fall, and then you see pockets of maybe where things are going well, but you also see a lot of areas where you know they're really there isn't great leadership, and so you
have to put a structure in place to hold leaders accountable. Right, the leaders have to be held accountable to doing their job. And if you have disengagement or poor performance, and you have leadership that is not interacting with their people on an interval, you need to put that structure in place. They have to interact on an interval, and so you have to hold those people accountable. And where that where that can cause problems is in places where the interactions
are already great and the engagement is already great. Because it adds a level of structure coming from an organizational level, is it can lead to a feeling of inauthenticity in the interactions because you've taken something that happened organically and put structure around it. But again, if you're honest and upfront with this is why it's happening. Inauthenticity doesn't mean that it can't be structured or planned, or that you're doing it because somebody else told you to it because
it's your job. Inauthenticity happens when that's going on, and yet you're still trying to convince the employee that you're here because you really want to be here. You know that that's inauthenticity. It is absolutely authentic to have an
interaction with an employee rooted around a company structure. You have to do if you tell them, this is why we are doing this, But it doesn't mean that you're that the effectiveness of the conversation or that how you feel about us and our relationship and the job isn't important. Just means that they have it has to happen on this kind of interval, And so yeah, I guess I
think it's great advice. Be upfront with it, be transparent, tell them why you're here, but but don't let that change the way that you interact with them and the authenticity of what what grew the relationship to a positive place to begin.
With, absolutely and with that it brings us at the end of this episode, this is Acting Leadership.
I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you all next time.