Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo.
And Lorenzo on this episode, I want to talk a little bit about a concept that we've maybe touched on a few times, but I don't know if we've you know, kind of dove in directly to it in a few years. And that's the idea of what author Kim Scott refers to as radical candor.
Yeah, I think it's a great topic.
I'm a huge fan, and I think the more dialogue we can have around this the better for everyone, including I think talking just through what does it actually mean versus what I hear. A lot people reference it, but I don't know that they're exactly accurate with how they reference it, right right, Definitely.
What spurred this is kind of a recent post by Kim on LinkedIn where she gives an example of what radical candor actually is, and she uses kind of an embarrassing example talking about what would you do if you noticed a coworker walk out of the bathroom and the zipper was down in their pants. And I know that there have been times in my life where I've seen that and thought I don't want to call out that I saw it. I don't want them to think why were you looking to begin with. It's like, no, I
wasn't looking. I just had to notice those things sometimes, you know, and like there's a there are reasons why we don't call that out when we see it, and then there are ways to call it out in the wrong way that would leave the coworker feeling embarrassed, and there's the right way to do it, and and radical candor kind of threads that needle between saying saying something but saying it in a way that shows you care about the feelings of the person you're saying it too.
And so I I want to address us with some examples because I think there's also another element to this that that can feed into whether or not you have the ability to have radical candor with a person, and that's how strong the relationship is between you and that person. And so I think it's a great topic to discuss. I know that in times when I have not said things that I have regretted it later and thought I should have said something, or you could have spared somebody
some embarrassment. And other times, you know, I can't put myself in a situation where I would ever have said something, and it's it's usually because my relationship with a person is one that is not you know, conducive to having discussions like that. But that doesn't mean that nothing needs to change. It just means that you got to start it in a different spot.
Yeah, And I like kind of these easy examples because I think about this one. I think about like I eat meals with a lot of peers and other leaders and things like that, and so it's the same exact thing if you say, if you have a salad and there's some type of food in your teeth, or saying sometimes people have like a hair, you know, like stick it out of their nose, Like small things that you might notice as you're having engaging conversations and that you you kind of are in that space.
Of like should I say something?
You know, I'm saying I don't want to like stare, and then that makes it all awkward, like those things happen. But what I what I like about the ease of the examples is then it's very like like I immediately try to scale up because what we're talking about, and even she says in the post is like these are moments that can be uncomfortable, but addressing them thoughtfully can make all the difference, so that you go from something like that it's embarrassing, it makes sense to do the
right thing. You know that if you don't do anything that like, you're you know, opening up for more people to notice it, for there to be more risk. But the harder examples to think about are just simply that you see up here make a decision or do something that maybe they weren't thinking all the way through, or maybe they they missed some element of context.
You know.
I was just in a meeting and people were talking, and people were you know, raising their hand and giving their point of view, and you know, unintentionally, the person that was kind of going through the room and picking people to answer questions, they missed somebody that was like to the left, but like out of their kind of view, so they didn't see their hand up and it wasn't intentional, but they didn't see it, and they were going to
go ahead and move on. And I saw the person kind of just put their hand down, and then I said, hey, I said, well hold on before we move forward. I noticed that, you know, Chris, you had your hand up as well, so could I have just let that go.
Sure, did I have to say anything?
No?
What does that do for Chris for the rest of this meeting? Right?
I want you to feel seen and heard, you know, I want to address basically the facilitator why not calling them out but assuming that it was a mistake, but also kind of also saying like, hey, pay better attention right like before before you move on, look around the whole room. But I like that you can go from an easy kind of embarrassment style example up to like how does this really happen day to day? And when do you step up and say something when it is uncomfortable?
But you could address it in a very thoughtful way.
Yeah, so the way that you called it out, it doesn't leave the facilitator feeling like they've been called out as you know, as not a good leader, you know, not caring about the person. It was an oversight, as
is everything else we're talking about here. You know, I like the first example you gave about, you know, eating a meal with somebody and then having like, you know, something in their teeth or something like that, because you know in those are actually, in my opinion, worse than the situation of the zipper being down, because if I, let's say that I noticed my own zipper is down, and I can't trying to think back when was the last time I went to the bathroom, you know, and
and and I'm thinking like, Okay, who's who've I interacted with since then? And in my mind, I'm hoping like, Okay, I guess nobody saw it, or I hope nobody saw it. And maybe I'm right, maybe nobody did see it, but maybe people did see it and didn't say something if it's something like stuck in my teeth or like on
my face. If if I notice it later, the first thing I'm thinking is, oh, all those people who looked at me and didn't say anything, because there's no way they didn't see it, right, Like, you can hope nobody saw the zipper, but if if you're talking to somebody and it's on there on your face, people are gonna
people notice. And so I like that example even more because I know that if I've been in situations like that and someone does have something like that, I feel like I am very quick to call it out because I don't ever want to be in a situation where later on they think, you know what, I just had a five minute conversation with Chris. Why didn't he tell me I had something in my teeth or something on my face or you know, or.
Something like that.
So I think, uh, I think those situations are maybe a little bit easier to overcome, but but not necessarily for the right reasons. They're easier to overcome because of a trying to avoid the the the the uncomfortable moment. Later if the person were to think ill of me for not saying something, whereas on the Zipper situation, maybe they just assume no one saw.
But but the.
The examples that Kim is giving, I think are they're they're great because you know, in essence she describes radical candor is uh, I mean saying what you think while giving a damn about the person you're saying it too. And I know, maybe a month or a month and a half ago, we had a top pack on here where we talked about being brutally honest, and you know, we said, you don't you don't have to be brutal to be honest at least, you know, usually every once
in a while maybe, but not typically. But the idea of being brutally honest means saying saying what you think and maybe what you're saying is completely right, but not caring about the feelings or the outcomes or the relationship with you and the person you're talking to. Whereas radical candor is all that, it checks off all those boxes. It says what needs to be said, but it also takes into account the feelings of the person you're talking
to or about and the relationship as a whole. And so I think it's I think it's a skill that needs to be learned.
And you can, you can say all.
The examples you want, but when it comes down to it, what actually makes a person feel like they should say something and say it in a way that takes into
account the feelings of the other person. And like I said before, there is this you know, I don't want to be held accountable for not saying something, meaning they know they know clearly I saw something but didn't say anything, Or there's the I didn't say something because relationship isn't isn't strong enough where I feel like I can, or there are situations where I do say something and I say in a way that would make Kim Scott proud
in terms of radical candor. So you know, I think it's an interesting kind of dichotomy because even though it's something I think I'm good at doing when I do it, it's not something that I always consistently do all the time. And so it makes me think back on why not? Why why don't I? Uh? And And so that's why I think it's a It's a great thing to discuss, because I would like, I would like to be better at that. I would like to be able to go back to those situations and think, Okay, why didn't I
what was stopping me? And then actually figure out a way to go through it, because those things can actually strengthen the relationship if done right.
Yeah, And I think too many times, you know, difficult conversations can be as simple as as disagreeing with somebody's point of view or their per you know, their perspective or their idea. And I find myself more in those situations where somebody says something that I don't agree with or that I feel like they don't know maybe how that comes across, or they're not sure of what, you know, like they haven't thought through exactly what the meaning of their statement is. And so like I'll give you a
perfect example of this. I hear a lot of times people talk about like the balance between people and performance, and I immediately say, well, hold on, like, I actually don't like to use the work balance right because by definition it's too like opposing things that have to find equality versus these things are together. It's people and performance like And so I correct it when I hear it, because I think we say it so much, and I've said it in the past. I never thought about it before.
But then when you think about, like, what are you actually saying, and what's the deeper meaning behind it, and that I don't want people to continue that thought.
I don't want.
People to continue to believe that it's a balance, that that it's actually it's it's it's both together. And so I that's an example of that. Could be a difficult conversation. That could be with somebody who is my peer. That could be with somebody who may be I am their leader. That could be somebody who I work for directly. That could be somebody who I don't work for directly but maybe has a higher level of responsibility with an organization.
So like, there's there's an element of should I say anything in the back of that but it's also one of those things that I don't mind having that conversation with people, and if they don't agree with that, we can have a conversation about it. But like, if it's going to be around me or having that dialogue, I feel it's important to say something, no matter how difficult
the conversation may be. And and so I use that as an example because I find myself hearing people around me say things and then you're in that space do I say something? And I'll say you Most of the time the answer is yes.
Some of the time it's no.
Some sometimes it's no, sometimes it's you know what, Like I don't know if that's the time. I don't know if I have the relationship with this person that is built in trust where they would know where I'm coming from. There are plenty of times where I might not say the thing in the moments, right, But most of the time I'm willing to have that conversation.
Yeah, I think there's the there's the you know, Steven shoudletski speak up?
Is it safe and worth it?
And then there's the other the other side of this, which is, you know, there's the question you're supposed to ask yourself before you say something, which is does this need to be said by me now? And if you can answer yes to all three, then then you should say something. And if you answer the answer is no, maybe it needs to be said by you, but not now. So it's a it's a conversation that happens later on with the person who said it, as opposed to saying something in front of a group of people.
Does it need to be said by you? Maybe not.
Maybe there's someone you can partner with to make sure that person gets the message. If it's something that you can say to them directly, You don't. You don't feel like you're comfortable. But I think I like that example you gave when it comes to the balance of people and performance, because you know, we've talked about it on the show before. Like this, I think I think most leaders one of the two things of you know, being able to hold people accountable and being able to have
empathy for a person. For most leaders, one of those two things comes more naturally than the other. Now that that's not that doesn't mean that they get off the hook for the other one. It doesn't mean that they they have to choose between the two. Obviously, you have to be able to have empathy for a person and
you have to be able to hold them accountable. But every most of leaders that I know, if you were to really you know, dig in deep, one of those two things comes more naturally and the other they have to summon in them. And that doesn't mean they can't be great at it, but it does mean that it's just, you know, we have different strengths that come more naturally to us. So I think because of that, because people kind of inherently or instinctively know about them and about others,
that one of those two things comes more naturally. There's an inherent kind of tendency to state them as opposing forces or like they're balancing each other out. And you know, obviously we know that that in order to be a good leader, you have to have both. And part of
empathy is accountability. Part of having empathy for a person and developing them and making sure that they know that you actually care about them is holding them accountable to a standard that they can rely on and that they can predict out of you, and that where they can kind of gauge their own growth and development and know where they stand. That is part of having empathy for somebody,
and so they are not opposing forces at all. But the reason I like your example is that sometimes people use the wrong words, but that doesn't mean that they mean what they said. It means that they could actually agree with you, and they've just said the wrong words, and then calling out the faux pas is honestly not appropriate.
It just makes you look dumb. Right.
So, if you know of a person and you know the way they operate and the way they lead people, that they don't look at people and performance as opposing forces, that they agree that both of them are important, but they happen to say it in a way that that is not the right way. Then it becomes a semantic argument to say, oh, you know, you mean people are in performance. You know, like, you don't want to call
it out that way and be that guy. But if what you know of the person says that they actually look at these two things as opposing forces, then.
You do want to call it out.
Obviously, you do want to say something because you don't want to let them continue believing that, or at the very least, you don't want the rest of the room they're talking to to continue believing that. And so I think it's a It takes some social skills and some knowledge of the people you're talking to and about sometimes to figure out whether or not radical candor is the right way forward, or whether you know it's time to take a step back and live to fight another day.
Absolutely, And with that it brings us to this episodes one minute hack. But first, if you were some more sponsors.
All right, for this episode one minute Hackers, I wants you to do. Think about the last time that you thought about saying something to someone but didn't for whatever reason. Either you didn't want to embarrass them, or you felt embarrassed saying something, or you didn't feel comfortable for whatever reason because of their position or the relationship you have with them, or whatever it is. Think about that time and really get in touch with why you didn't say something.
What was it that prevented you from doing that. The next thing to do is to go back to that person and don't bring up the incident that happened that's long gone, but start to work on the things between you and that person that prevented you from saying something to begin with, because the goal is to make sure that every person you work with, whether it be a direct report or a peer or a boss, that you have the kind of relationship with them where you feel
comfortable being radically candid with them, You feel comfortable saying what needs to be said honestly, but in a way that gives a damn about their feelings. And if you don't have that relationship with people with whom you work, you need to so that you can build those relationships stronger,
get better work done, be more productive. It's incredible what you can accomplish with people if you have the relationship with them that says that you can be radically candid with them and they can be radically candid with you. And so whoever those people are who you've had examples with, go back and work on it and try to make sure that the next time something happens that you feel comfortable saying something the right way.
Yeah. I think it's a great hack.
And you know, continuing to build on those relationships. And we talk a lot on the show just around kind of building trust and the interactions that you have and the dialog that you're having. And there becomes a point when it used to be easy. It used to be easy when everyone had a little bit less responsibility when you were kind of working as an individual contributor maybe and you're just working with people, you're learning together at the same pace, you have a lot in common as
you're kind of building careers together. And then you get into a space where now most of the people around you may have big responsibilities and large teams and things that they have to accomplish, and there's this element of ego that gets involved and all these different hurdles that will maybe stop us from having and saying the things that we need to say to one another when we
truly care about them. And the reality is, if you get to the point where you just don't care but you're looking to continue to grow yourself and grow your team, you have to spend the time figuring out ways to build the relationships to get to that point. And again, I'd say that because what used to be really easy in spending a lot of time with the same people on the same task, now you'll have less time doing the same tasks with those same people, you have less
interactions with them. You have to be more intentional with finding ways to build a relationship so that not only can you step up and be radical, you know, have radical candor with that individual, but they will also have it with you, and that make sure that you get which you need to be successful and going.
Forward right for sure.
And then again that calls out the importance of the relationship. Obviously, the more time you spend with a person, hopefully that means the better relationship you have with them, and that means you're probably more likely to be able to say something. But the importance of the relationship will decide whether or not you can say something.
And the further along you move in.
Your career, the more people you will have tangential relationships with. They're not direct reports, they're not necessarily peers, and they're not your direct boss. You know, the kind of the close circle of three to five people that you work with every single day. They will be people who you maybe work with or see or talk to once a week or a month or a quarter or a year.
But you've been doing it long enough where you have a very cordial relationship and you know each other and if you and those are the people who it's more difficult to have radical candor with because you know there it seems like you should be able to because you're friendly and you know each other and you can call each other, but you don't spend enough time with them to feel like it's natural to be radically candid with them, and so again, work on the relationships.
It's it's the right thing to.
Do, absolutely and with that it brings us at the end of this episode, this is hacking your leadership. I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you all next time.