¶ Podcast Intro
it's an Estrela Galicia.
Welcome to the last episode of season one of the Growthitect podcast, Alex and I grabbed some of our favorite drinks. And this time I get to interview Alex. I asked him questions like, what advice do you have for architects that want to start their own firm?
what you want to do straight off the bat is start planning ahead and start putting things in place.
What's something that lots of architects are overlooking
I think checking in just to make sure it's going in the right direction that you wanted.
and what's his most controversial point of view on architecture.
I feel a bit more further from it, like I can't relate as much to the intellectualizing
This conversation is a less edited and more free flowing celebration of Season 1, so I hope you enjoy.
¶ Introduction and Whiskey Talk
I got my favorite, which you might actually hate being from, uh, Ireland, but
Oh, Jack Daniels. No, I'm not, I don't, I don't hate it. I'm not that much. It's more between Ireland and Scotland. The issue is,
okay. I mean, it's kind of lame because, you know, I've, I do really like whiskey, but this was the first whiskey that I ever had. And as a result, it's like ruined all of the others for me. You know what I mean? It's just like, I know that it's sweet and whatever, and this
yeah, yeah, no, a hundred
but it is what it is. And, uh,
I, to be honest, I started off on a lot of the basic stuff in Ireland. So you're like, you've got your powers, your Jensen and all that. And, um, you know, anything is kind of upward from that. So it's, it's kind of like a low baseline.
yeah, it takes so long to, I think, in my opinion, at least for me, it's because I still feel like I don't have a good hold on it, but like to, Let's say be a, be an educated drinker of alcohol. it takes so much energy and it's not like, it's not a skill or an interest that I have, cause I don't drink that much. and so I have so little knowledge about, about liquor, about alcohol in general. It's really bad. so I'm literally just like,
We can do a separate podcast on
yeah, we can do a separate podcast on
You can ask me about that. You know, I've got a,
There it is.
I've just come back from a, uh, a pretty big weekend in Dublin with a couple of friends for a bachelor party. So you can imagine there was a lot going on.
Yes. You learned, you learned, you learned a lot about it. Yeah, the, the amount of times that I've tried to learn about, beer or wine or liquor in general, it's just, I, I feel like I never, uh, absorb it, but, uh, cheers, cheers to you. Cheers to season one.
Cheers. I'm uh, I'm on a Spanish beer. it's a, it's an Estrela Galicia. So, I was actually last night, I was with a couple of, colleagues and, we ended up going to a Spanish bar and we were just catching up about how our course that we're on is going and like, you know, having a couple of drinks, a bit of food. Uh, yeah, it was really good.
It was good to kind of shoot the, shoot the shit, you know, and, and see how everyone's doing and people are, people getting, um, Getting their accountants, you know, lined up and, and it's interesting to see like how they're finding that market and navigating that. And then, um, you're all navigating different things, you know, New York's wild in the summer.
I was, you know, back in the city and I, and I went and had a couple of meetings and stuff and, and, and yeah, it's just like, it's crazy, man. It's just like, it's a good, it's a good buzz. It was a good vibe going around the city yesterday.
that's good. All around the whole city. The whole city is just vibing. That's always a good place to be
¶ Celebrating Season One Finale
in. Well, I thought for our final recording, you know, typically these are, um, whatever recorded consultations, but we're celebrating, you know, the end of season one, as well as you over the last 10 weeks, launching your firm, launching studio, Bucky, you know, landing your first clients, doing a ton of traveling, just a lot of exciting things happening. So I thought it'd be more fun if I ask you questions
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm up for it. Let's, let's, let's do it.
Sweet. All right. I feel like usually our conversations, well, I guess it's the final, it's the final episode now. So we can say that typically what we do is we record multiple episodes at once. Right. So we'll sit down and we'll usually do like a couple and I'll just happen to break it up because there's a natural breaking point in that conversation where we move to something else. I think that's how those episodes typically end up being like 20 or 30 minutes, but.
Who knows how long this one's going to be. I've got the next four hours blocked off, Alex. Um, no kidding.
I'm here. I've got a six pack.
boom.
¶ Advice for Aspiring Architects
All right, cool. Well, so what advice do you have for architects that want to start their own firm?
Well, I think you, what you want to do straight off the bat is start planning ahead and start putting things in place. So whatever it's like, you know, obviously we've gone through a lot together on the podcast and just like.
I think in one of our initial episodes, we just spoke about starting to kind of get some, some ideas of what you want to do and what you want to kind of systems in place, even possibly, you know, and I think it's good to get some experience, you know, but just so I wouldn't go straight into it. I think I'd go and try out a few studios or offices. And I think then I would just jump for it. I think, you know, looking back on it for me, I think I could have gone sooner.
I think we can all say that on many things. We could all say, I probably should have started that earlier. And I could say that. for people as well, I think I would say, it's better just to get going and start moving the gears. It actually is, it's quite, it, there's light at the end of the tunnel. And on the other side, it's quite interesting, which I'm finding, you know, it's, I wouldn't look back now, you know, I wouldn't, you know, it's, it's, it's, though it's only been like two months.
Or yeah, I guess that's all it's been. It's like, it's just, it's opened up a world of possibility, which I find, you know, then I think that's amazing. So yeah, look, I think overall I would say start thinking really about what you want to be with, you know, do with the studio or your office and start thinking about planning ahead for that. So financially.
your network and starting to like put feelers out about what you're doing, starting to test the market a little bit about it, all that stuff, starting to build your brand. I had, I had done a lot of that in my head and obviously started to implement some of that. And I think others. Can start to think if they, if they want to do it and they think they can, you know, I think I just go for it, put it aside X amount and go and just give it a shot.
I mean, at the end of the day, my, my theory always was you can always go back and get a job, you know,
yes, if you're
um, I, we discussed that together, you know, I think early when we had a conversation, I think that was, we both said that was like, look, at the end of the day, you can, things don't work out. You just get a job or I think, um, you can try something else, you know?
I mean, there's so many things.
¶ Challenges in Running a Firm
It's, you know, I think we tend to be so risk averse, right? So we get so worried about those things.
Um, so,
know, we, we don't want to take this. However, I do. I think that your path is more important. I would rather be in your position where you said I could have gone sooner,
um,
Then to be in the other position, which is I should have waited a little bit longer when I started mine. I think that I went too soon, but I went too soon just because like, I was frustrated. I was tired of looking for a firm that I thought I would want to spend time working at. And I just, I just couldn't find it. And so I was like, screw it. I'll just, I'll just start my own thing. but I think I ultimately ended up probably starting that too soon.
how much years did you have in practice at that point? Roughly.
I don't know if you take like all of the, I had been in architecture for like, you know, Six years at that point or something through, and that's through school and internships and different things like that, you know, so something along those lines. But in terms of, full time work within firms, it was probably like a couple of years. Like it wasn't, it wasn't a ton like when you add
Yeah. And it's, it's hard to quantify, you know, cause like I think, I, I, I played around with scales of offices and stuff, and You know, it's all a bit different. And I think we said before, I think it's, it's good to see a bit of all of it. If you can, you know, if you could see the plus 50 person practice, you can see the minus, you know, less than 10 practice, you know, I think it's good to experience that. Cause you get more responsibility as you go down the chain.
And, I think in the bigger offices, it's interesting to see how that infrastructure works. You know, there's a lot of interesting, efficient, productive things going on in the big ones where you can really learn how to be a lean machine.
Well, I'm glad that was your experience with the big one. what I found in working with a larger like international firm was that, wow, there's so many talented people around me. Like I was just completely blown away by the talent. I felt like I was at the bottom, in terms of the talent that was, that was at the firm. So that was. You know, that was incredible. And I like that because I like feeling like everyone around me is, is a little bit better and I have something to learn from everyone.
So, you know, I don't, I don't want to come in and be the best at something. That's, you know, that's not very motivating. So I really enjoyed that, but I felt like I looked around and just saw inefficiencies like all around me. almost from like a project management, from a time management standpoint, it's like, is it really like, do I, do we, do we really need 20 iterations of this? Like, is that the best use of, of time?
And, you know, even while I was there, I'd probably spent, I don't know, six to eight months on this, like one space, um, it wasn't the only thing I was doing, but it was like it was a long time and it was, it was like a lobby, of a giant like skyscraper. Uh, you know, it was big, it was a big. Like part of, of the project, but I don't know if we ever got like buying from the client. I really don't know.
I've been through that.
you know, it's like, uh, it's just one of those wild things where it's like, who Like, is the client spending money for us to continue working on this? Is, or are we like swallowing the cost of, like, I just don't, it's hard to know what the economies of scale are there, like
Yeah. Well, I mean, you'd like to think that was a billable hour situation going on there.
You'd have to think, yeah, you'd
You have, to think, cause I think, and I've seen both the sides of the coin.
know, I don't know. I don't have confidence in that.
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I I've seen both sides of like, I've seen the billable hours done meticulously and to a point where I was really, you know, I didn't want to fill out the sheets, you know, let's be honest and you know, it's really annoying having to do it. But I think once you learn and you mature about it, you're like, Oh God, this is actually really necessary.
Cause then you're going to build a client and they're going to know exactly how many hours you did, what items you worked on, there's a bit more transparency, you
Yeah. But you never figured that out until you get into the management position,
No, no, no, you don't. You don't, you don't. You should be sat down and
I was going to say that you should be sat down and told in your first architecture job, or really when you get it to any firm, listen, this is how the firm makes money. If we don't make money, we can't pay you. That's the importance of you
or, and we can't bring in better
we can't, we can't bring in better projects. We don't know how much time people are spending on things. So we might lose money on projects, which means we have to do layoffs. It's like this all works together. It's all, it's all in an engine and it's all a system and it takes everyone to participate and take it seriously in order to do it well. And I think if you don't educate, if you don't educate your employees on that, like you're kind of screwed.
no, you are. And it, you, it took me until actually going through it myself to realize why you realize it yourself.
¶ Long-Term Goals and Reflections
Well, I think this brings me to the next question. I was thinking, I think this is a harder one, but I want you to put yourself in the shoes of someone that's been running their firm for a longer period of time. because I know I have, definitely like most of the people that follow growth attack and these different things, like they're firm owners and they've been running firms for a pretty long time. Relatively long time. And sometimes that's their own firm.
And sometimes, they're a partner in a firm and they've got, you know, 10 to 50 people working for them or something, but just imagine yourself working, and owning a firm for let's say 10 years, 20 years down the line, what's something that you think those people might be overlooking at this point. And I want to ask you this question because you're so fresh, like you literally just started. Right.
You just started the firm and all of these things are so fresh and you're having to tackle all of these like business problems immediately right now. So what's something that you think they might be overlooking now? You know, 10, 20 years later, after starting their own firm,
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a tricky one, but I think, you know, you'll, you'd probably be at that point be looking to scale up and up again, you know, so you're going to hit different levels each time, probably over the years, every five years, you're probably going to jump into making more money, adding more employees, et cetera.
So I don't know, I'm imagining it's probably a decent, you know, let's say it's 10, 12 people and you're, and you're thinking more in terms of issues that might, you might be addressing at that
it's like, you know, what are the things that they're probably overlooking because they're in a flow now, right? They're in a flow I think that, 10 to 20 years in, you're in that dangerous place that it's like, this is the way it's been done,
I think one thing that would be really important, would be to kind of like sit down and reflect on everything and actually really take stock properly on like why it is you're running, you know, I'm sure you can get lost a little bit in the process and a little bit. It grows in a way. I think checking in just to make sure it's going in the right direction that you wanted. You're getting everything you wanted out of it.
Like I've seen this this situation play out and I don't know if people are happy with where it's ended up. So I feel like, you know? whether that's sitting down and like, you know, it's a quarterly thing, it should be more like, don't get me wrong. You should be checking in on what, what your, you know, your goals, mission, vision, and all that stuff is.
And I feel like, guess I've seen it a little bit that, Projects come, clients come, staff start coming in, and things get busy, and it gets out of hand, and the next thing, you're just riding the wave, you know,
You're just going through the motions.
yeah, yeah, yeah, and I can kind of see a little bit of that when you start to get busy, you know, and things are taking off, and you're just hitting deadlines, and deliverables, and, you know, think it's just important to check in on everything, make sure you're happy with where it's going. If not, have a think about maybe, do you want to change certain elements? Are the projects right? Is the team right that you're with? Is there, is there growth?
What's the growth been like over the last year or two, you know?
I think you're right. I think that's spot on. It's so important to, to not get stuck in going through the motions and to make sure that you are taking stock in your progress and you should absolutely be celebrating the progress that you've made up to this point, right. Um, for anyone that's been, that's, that's been in it for a long time. Right.
So, you know, take a moment to acknowledge and celebrate yourself for what you have accomplished, but also just think about what you do want out of the future, because I think you're right. Like it's, it's, it's easy to get caught up In the motions, it's easy to forget about what exactly you want to do. And it takes so much more mental and emotional effort to ask yourself these questions. What do I really want? Um, what am I really going for?
What's the, what's the long term plan here, but just, forcing yourself into, into those every once in a while, and making yourself feel a little bit uncomfortable, I think is probably the right move and can, and can save you longer down the road. Right. Because the more that you delay that, the more that you push that back, you probably just get more unhappy along the way I would imagine.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I think so. And I'm keeping relationships good, you know, within whoever you're working with as wise. And you work with people for a long time, certain people, you know, they can be directors or associates or people that you surround yourself with. And just, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ensuring that they're also happy and enjoying the journey.
Not everyone's always going to be fully content all the time, but at least you can do is have support and, yeah, be open to having honest conversations about how everyone's feeling and doing with the business. I think that's important because at the end of the day, the studio will only grow with who I'll bring in and who will be involved with us as I move forward and like, they're going to be very important. So hiring is, is definitely a bit, a bigger question.
And I see a lot of further issues with that down the line. But anyway. I think it's just more of, yeah, as you said, the more about checking in and taking stock, I think it's the best thing there.
Yeah, but I think it's also a good point, like thinking about the people around you and that you're surrounding yourself with, like, I actually, I really loved the studio that I landed in when I was in the large international firm, like these guys were amazing and they were all so talented and I had so much to learn from all of them and we would go out and I remember we went out and like played basketball, at a gym in Chicago. When we were there and we would go.
And since, since you'd be, you know, encouraged to stay late, we would pretty much be there late because if you stayed late enough, you know, dinner was paid for, right. Uh, which is, you know, it's a terrible incentive program, but, you know, you stay late enough, um, dinner's paid for. And so that happened, you know, most nights, honestly,
But you, know, you. know, You pay 20
your time with these people. You have dinner together, you, you meet them. And it's just, you know, I was thankful to have such a great group of people around me,
there's still people that you kind of, still have some connection with.
I haven't actually stayed, in touch with them that much since I, since
Yeah. It depends, I guess, on which
I'm literally terrible at that. So you, you found, you found my, I'm terrible.
Yeah. Fair. Yeah. But no, look, it's like, it's a, we're all, we're all got different things going on, you
Yeah. when I left that firm, I also moved out of Chicago, like shortly thereafter.
Yeah.
it was, kind of like a one, two punch. And then I was onto the next thing and we moved back to Michigan. So, you know, life moves fast after
Gotcha. It does. It does.
but, uh, yeah, so. Long term goals for Studio Bucky. We've talked about it a little bit, but like, I'm just curious if you've, I mean, now actually this is, this is kind of funny now because what, because of what you just said, but, what do you want to do with Studio Bucky?
I mean, again, I was actually having this conversation last night with a couple of people when I was like, already, I was like, having thinking about, okay, where's this going?
You know, it's only early doors and stuff, but I was thinking about, you know, Right now I'm doing a lot of interior renovations, ultimately, and it seems like there's a lot, there's a lot of scope for, for many different kind of more artistic, you know, art installations or, or, or different kinds of things, but I think I'm gonna, gonna kind of work my way through the gears in terms of the projects first with interiors, and then I'm gonna like branch into the, uh, back into my foot into the
architecture a bit. I think that I've, you know, I'm obviously trained in that and I've but I found myself predominantly in interior renovations, um, and particularly in retail. So, you know, I am checking in a little bit at the start here, cause that's, what's coming in for me right now. And I'm happy to go through the emotions with it. And I enjoy, the public aspect to it and I enjoy it.
collaborating with brands ultimately, because they've got like a Well, at the same time, you know, I think I would like to see scales go up a bit. I think I'd like to experience, you know, the building envelope in its totality, you know, like not just the inner skin. And so I think I'd like to like refine the machine and work my way up through the building. I'm not saying
Yeah. Start in and go out.
¶ A Word From Our Sponsor
Yeah.
Yeah, but you know, I, I would say, yeah, definitely houses, I'd say definitely go to mid rise for sure. I think, making sure buildings and there's the relationship with the landscape is always being developed. And then I think the big thing for me will be, I want to have two studios in terms of like one in Europe and one in the U S and that's always been a goal for me. So you know, obviously I'm based in New York and I see, that being one of my main goals. Homes for the studio.
And I think the other studio will go to, yeah, it will be in Europe as well. So I'll have the kind of duality of both. And that's not just for both markets. It's both because of like, um, it's just, they both offer different things. You know, I'm from Ireland. I would like to start working in Paris, London, you know, Dublin, Madrid, whatnot. I think, so I've always seen this as a global thing. So how I navigate that is probably going to be interesting. I'd imagine.
Cause, um, you know, I'll probably need. A team, a light team in New York, I would say, and actually potentially a bigger team over there.
Hmm. Yeah. think it's easier to win work over in Europe or is it like,
I don't know. I actually, you know, I think I need to sit down and actually probably think about the next two years and three years, just how that plays out with this idea. Even I think that because I was in Paris for four years, I have connections there. I think I could, if I, I, I just was messaging someone in London based. And I think I could, you know, it would, again, I haven't, I haven't opened the door. I haven't really.
Sat down to say, if I go to London for a week and actually network and go, and was there a possibility that I'll end up, you know, making a strong enough connection.
yeah. Yeah.
and I don't know how these things play out. I, I guess you do good work and the good work brings you, and don't, and also you, you're good at business, obviously, but, it's like a teleporter thing. It takes you to the next place. I, I, I don't know. There's probably different systems going on. Like for example, if someone sees like your project on there, they're there or what you're about, they'll eventually want to drag you in a certain direction, potentially. I don't know.
Anyway, look, I see it as an ever evolving thing that will have two studios, probably at the minimum could go further if the right people I meet along the way. I'm very open to this going in any direction and, letting it evolve, you know, as I go and like having principles about it, but at the end of the day, putting in the right people together to make good work and finding good clients, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. I love that perspective. You know, it's, I think it's important for people to hear it's, you know, you, you did start a business and you have a direction that you're moving and you're starting these things, but you're not nailed down to it and you're like, you know, things might change different things. This thing's going to evolve. It's definitely not going to be what it is right now. You're not going to land right into perfection, you know, into right. What you want to do.
And. And it takes some time. It takes a lot of, time and experimenting, and exploration to really figure out what it is. And I think that's a better position to come into it with than to be like, I know exactly what I want only going to go directly towards that. Because even if you think you know exactly what you want, I think immediately when you start your own thing and you're immediately in control of everything, like that probably changes,
Yeah. It's like our whole life journey, you know, it's like, you know, I, I didn't expect to be sitting in New York, starting the business. I never expected to be married to someone from Spain when I, you know, it's the, all these things just happen. You meet people along this path that you're on.
And, uh, I think, I think what's always worked in my favor is I've been open to just walking the path and just taking it and seeing what comes my way without making too much of a judgment call either way. And just be like, being open to how it could play out, you know, rather than having a very strict kind of, this is, this is what, what is, I want to be here in this place at that point in time. And just, it just doesn't work like that. We all know that, you know, I
I think that's the right perspective. You know, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but I snark architecture, which is, you know, where, where you came from. If people are listening, don't, don't realize that. was absolutely like one of my top three favorite firms of all time. Always has been. I first learned about SNARcitecture in undergrad from one of my professors. Tom Moran, shout out to Tom Moran, but it was one of my favorite studios that I've ever had.
and it was so fun, but he introduced me to SNARcitecture because of the installations that SNARcitecture does and all of these, you know, kind of just, just different way of thinking about space and the different scale of thinking about architecture and I absolutely loved it. And so. when we originally crossed paths and I saw that you were working at SNARcitecture, I was like, this is amazing. Like I, it's still like a top three firm.
Like I just, I just love all of the work that SNARcitecture has ever done. And so, if no one has checked out Alexander's work up to this point in studio, Bucky, like it's so good. You're really, I haven't actually told you this before, but you are amazing. Right. Your, your work is, your work is incredible and you're super talented.
I wouldn't go to that, you know, it's, it's, it's obviously, um, I think what's important is I've always, when I've been on this journey, I've been thinking about like, you know, the, I've been always interested in certain works.
And so I would find a way to go into that office or that studio and it's not that easy and don't get me wrong, it's been very complicated, but I mean, from working in Paris with the initial firm that I was at with Sean Uvell and the amazing people I met there and the work I did there, I, really loved it, honestly, I, I, you know, they talk about the flow thing and I was just in it there and it was, it was, it was special and then I had to pull myself out of it because I wasn't developing as, had
hit a, you know, I'd hit the ceiling there. There was no growth. So, I ended up going to New York and, and yes, an architecture came at the end of my last job before I went out and did studio book. Yeah, I had two jobs before that it was a bit mad and it was all a bit chaotic. I was learning and, uh, how different offices work once you leave as an architect. And that's a very specific way of working. So, you know, it wasn't all, it wasn't easy. It wasn't all good.
And then I, yeah, I had always been interested in the workers and architecture. And, you know, I had reached out to Mariji when I arrived. I didn't get anything. And, you know, I followed up again and I had a conversation. And it was like, it's, it's that thing about where you find your fit.
You know, once I went in there, You know, I was just suited to that office and that was that, and, uh, it, the growth was just like endless and it just kept going and it was a small firm and, you know, I could come in with experience from like what I'd done in the different fields, even if I'd failed in certain offices, the failure was still a good learning for what I've happened in with them.
it was an incredible experience, you know, I look back on that, that whole thing as, as like really informative for me and really important and I had never done interior design before that, you know, I was working on bigger scale projects. You know, I was doing competitions. I was working on towers in China. I was doing that kind of
¶ Finding Passion in Art and Architecture
Same. Yeah.
I had done hands on, I had done installations and workshops and stuff like that separately myself and had an interest and a passion for art. So that's how I ended up, you know, swaying in there. But yeah. yeah, it's crazy, man. It's, it's honestly, knew I had the ability and I guess they knew it too, and it was more about just going through the gears and, and falling a little bit, but mostly running and getting through it, you know,
Yeah.
and yeah. So then you just work on these incredible, interesting projects. And, you know, I think I had always resonated with me, this whole idea of art and architecture, you know, and, and exploring the in between of that. And that's what they were doing. It's an architecture and. I think it genuinely sat with me in a true way that I was doing the work and I was actually doing it because I felt passionate for it and and we did, about 10 projects there, and like, that's pretty wild to go
That's a lot. Yeah. That, that is the benefit of that, that scale of
¶ Creative Freedom and Growth at Snarkitecture
and they're different scales. There's furniture, there's installations, and credit to them for giving, being open to giving people like myself, the opportunity to come in and they literally were like, look, this, this role or whatever you want out of this business can be what you want. And they allowed that for me. And I think that was, that was really good, you know, and so there was a freedom. There was definitely creative freedom. There was. open mindedness for growth and you can see that.
I mean, it wouldn't be the practice it is it was a great, great time.
Yeah, that's great to know just from the outside looking in that they do because you have to imagine like when you're looking at Snarkitecture's work, you're like, there's got to be, like, I can't imagine that's too, that's too rigid inside.
so everyone employed there is an architect by trade. And so there is this like level of rigor and structure on the business, which has made them that successful because one of the partners is an architect. The other was an artist, and I think it was using the architectural thinking.
applied to an artistic way of like, being creative, just like opened up a whole lot of stuff, it was just being able to deliver, to be able to follow a rigorous system, you know, everything we're trained to do and apply that in a, in a kind of an open minded way is quite interesting.
Yeah. got to check out, uh, art and architecture by Hal Foster. Have you read it before?
No, no, I haven't actually.
he teaches at Princeton, but he doesn't teach in the architecture program. He teaches in the art program. So when I was at Princeton, I could not, I could not get into his class. I tried, I tried, but I was unable to, but he's written this book on art and architecture and it's, you know, it's more of a theory book, So. you know, I've never really understood, um, or I've never asked you how exactly it is that you fell into architecture.
Well, actually, yeah, I was kind of pre made to do this. so my dad is an engineer but he's a civil engineer, but he always wants to do architecture and he didn't manage to get him to do it. And so what happened was because he's a chartered UK as well. You're allowed to sign off on buildings and you're actually got that level. You've got that also the same, Credibility, I guess, as an architect in terms of that level of sign off and stuff.
And so he ended up, like, going into doing buildings and, mostly residential, work.
And so like, when I was like, you know, four or five or whatever, it was like I was in a room with me, my brother, and then there was my dad's like office with one other guy and we were all, you know, so like, I don't, I think it, I think it was kind of set in some ways for me that I would do that, honestly, because though I thought about, you know, different things, like there were mostly design based, but I was interested in car design.
And then I was interested in, you know, a few other paths, but then ultimately I just, when I started the course and I did it, it just felt right, you know, and so I guess, you know, watching my dad do structures and make buildings and then made me think about me doing it and it just kind of unraveled.
Yeah, that's cool. I feel like with every single architect that you speak to, the vast majority of the time, it really starts in childhood, there's something that like clicks. And childhood, where it just, you know, makes sense that you just become attracted to it for whatever reason. And
yeah, yeah. And honestly, I didn't really know what to expect. I mean, in some ways, two of my best friends were going to uni in this one location. And so I was like, you know, and I, and I did apply and we all got in the same place, but it was, I was like, maybe it might work out, you know, maybe I won't like it. But the minute I got into it and I met it, it was the people, you know, with the way they think as well.
You'd met people that were like you, and I guess that goes for everyone, I would hope. And when they go to university, as you get to that point where you feel like you meet these people that, they also kind of have these interesting quirks and interests and that you couldn't find previously. and then, yeah, just doing watercoloring and drawing and all this crazy stuff. Plus like all the, it was just like, it was, it was nice, you know?
that is so relatable.
¶ Discovering a Love for Architecture
because I actually, I didn't start in architecture. I was studying, I studied neuroscience in pre med for like the first three years. Like I literally switched into architecture my senior year of undergrad. Right. And so, and the reason that I switched in was because I, Just decided to take an architecture, uh, elective. And I kid you not, I was 10 minutes into that class, this professor, my favorite professor of all time, Melissa Harris. I love her. Um, she's absolutely incredible.
And it was a drawing class, you know, it was like kind of like basic architecture drawing. And just, it was the way that she was talking about the world, right. And the way that she was talking about your perspective and the things that you would see and how you then represent that on the page and these, I fell in love with architecture in 10 minutes because of that class and enough to be like, you know what, I don't need to do pre med. I was like studying for MCATs.
I was like, I'll, I'll go into architecture, which it wasn't completely out of nowhere because I. Did enjoy design and I grew up liking architecture and doing a lot of drawing and I was always kind of artistic. And so it wasn't completely out of nowhere, but it was that same thing where it was just like, yeah, I found people. I like found my tribe, right? I found people that I could relate to immediately.
And that kind of like looked at things the same way and thought the same way about things and was questioning the same things were interested in the same things. And. It's funny though, because young,
¶ The Intellectual Challenge of Architecture
naive. Me, was like, oh man, switching to architecture is going to be so easy compared to compared to pre med like pre med was so hard. There's so many smart people in it. Um, these courses are impossible. And I remember thinking like in the back of my mind, I was like, These courses are going to be a breeze, right. Relative to pre med and I'll never forget the first, you know, it was, it was my first week in the architecture school.
And, one of the first classes that I went to one of the first lectures that I went to, but it was construction, right. It was, it was the construction lecture and you know, it was a, it was 60 minutes. And I did not understand one word, one word that my professor said in the front of that class. And I remember walking away from that being a little bit like, Oh, crap. Like, what did he just say? Like, what just happened?
Mm.
are we talking about? forever believe this, you know, that was, that was just the impetus to it as an example, but like, I think architects are the smartest people in the world. I think they're like, they're just so intellectual. and I think it's, I think it's incredible and it's, overlooked, but. By far, by far, the people in that I met in architecture were more intellectual and, and then the people that I met in pre med for sure.
Yeah.
¶ Balancing Theory and Practice
Yeah. And there's, you know, I think it's getting that balance of, I think what I loved about it was. There was a real cultural interest in many topics, whether it was like art or science or politics or, you know, it just was endless. And profession basically touches all of it in many ways. You know, you're shaping the environment. People walk in and move through every day.
And. You know, even just understanding that responsibility, it was like, you know, you feel like, wow, I'm actually doing something that I feel like is got relevance in society on a, on a, on a kind of a tangible way, you know, and like, that's a, that's one takeaway, but then.
Yeah, I'm just like taking classes that were so out there was just so enjoyable and just having discussions, you know, it was almost philosophical and like anthropology was my favorite class, you know, and like, I, you know, couldn't believe that I got to do that.
And I actually think it was probably going to, the architecture school was probably the biggest change for me as a, in a perspective sense, you know, it was, it was probably the most defining thing that moved my path in a certain direction because I just like got way more interested in everything.
Yeah. Yeah. You start looking at the world differently immediately. Like you take that first, You take that first painting class, you take that first drawing class, like whatever, like you are immediately just noticing things that you've never noticed before and you're looking at the
You're kind of touching into doing art, you know? And like, cause I've got a brother who's, who's, who's an artist and like, you know, they really, you know, abstract their mind and like really see things from every corner. And I think we do an element of, absolutely an element of that as well.
absolutely. I think you have to, I mean, I mean, I think that's clear immediately when an architect just talks to a normal person about, about architecture,
Yeah. And that's how we become so, it becomes, we all end up together, you
Yeah. Yeah. That's why architects are only friends with other architects. It's like the, you know, you go, you go through that and it's. It's just tough to find yourself out of it. I think this is also, you know, it's also problematic in my opinion, like in the industry, because it creates this huge gap with clients and with the general public in terms of how we see things and how we talk about things and how we communicate those
¶ The Importance of Communication in Architecture
values. You know, I mean, everything that I talk about, everything that I teach is about how you communicate your value as architects. And that's where. You know, I don't think there's not necessarily a way around it because we, I think, you know, I do believe in that in, in school, you kind of have to learn that you have to go through that abstraction phase. And since it can't all be technical, it can't all be like, so based in reality, I think you do need that abstraction.
And I think it's healthy, but, um, it's so hard to come out of that then and just speak directly. two clients and to the general public about what It is that you do. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, really what jury should be in architecture school is that they should, instead of bringing in other professors, Uh, architecture, other architects and other professors from all of their schools, they should be bringing in people like business owners.
Like they should be bringing in normal people that will probably be your clients, because that's going to be more important. Like learning how to talk to them. That's who you're going to be talking to. That's who you're working with. And you're not working with other, you're not selling to other architects when you, when you go out into the world, you're selling to the general public.
And so I think that's problematic because then you, you know, it's just, it becomes this like endless cycle where you're just, you're getting deeper and deeper and deeper into the like architectural vortex, you know?
over intellectualizing of stuff is too much and, you know, I've gone through the ringer with that a few times and, you know, I've been through, you know, the endless, uh, psychoanalysis of buildings and, and how they're being developed and then translated for, you know, it's just too much, you know, I, I, I, I was in that and I, and I very much so contributed to that for a while. And then I just was like, honestly, yeah. This is not good for me.
I mean, I'm with you. I it's, it's hard because it's fun. I think it's fun to
Yeah. No, it is. It is fun.
buildings, but it's like the second that you step out, reality just smacks you in the face. I think that's, that's, that's the trouble with
it does. And It's hard to look at it the same
yeah, it's, you know, it's really tough. It's like, you can, I guess I, and I think that's why we get so many, professors in architecture that don't practice that much or practice very little. Yeah. It's because they, they like staying in that realm, right? They like staying in that kind of cycle analysis lane. Um, and so they basically graduated from school. And then the next thing that they did is they went straight into teaching.
And I have a ton of colleagues that, that, that, did that same thing. Right. And, um, and I even tried to do it. Like I tried to get a fellowship immediately after school. I did teach a little bit, you know, I've taught, um, our, uh, undergraduate and graduate, you know, studios and it's this, you know, because it's fun. It's nice to stay in that lane. It's nice to kind of stay out of reality a little bit, to be honest with you.
And that's what it is. You know, ultimately it's just a, this, it's a bubble that you are designing a fictitious world that really, when you actually get into the brass tacks of it, when you're actually come out into, you know, working in an office, Reality is just way different and we're not conceptualizing over like how big the cantilever is on the side of that building where, you know, it's the meaning is because it's of this thing. And it's like, yeah, that's not exactly. And I don't look,
Go talk to the structural engineer, see what's actually possible. You know, it's like,
There's a space and time for that and it's important and it's good for people to, like, explore. I think they have to blow their, their mind apart to bring it back together. But I think keeping it apart for too long is just too much. I mean, I don't know if it's healthy to be continuously, uh, theorizing about architecture at the end of the day, you know?
I agree. It's something that I struggle with having like gone to a fair, like a, you know, a very theoretical, like a master's program I did, but it's like, it's tough. a struggle with that. I'm like, you know, is there, you know, I do think there's value in it, but it's, you know, does that value actually impact.
The general public and the work that architects are doing probably, but I don't think it's as much or as important as what we feel like it is or make it out to be when we're actually in it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's like the, I think, you know, a bit more of a, opening to the reality of, of it would be good. A bit more exposure to the reality. And I think they're getting aware. Some of them are getting more aware and stuff. So it's, it's a bit of a, it's an ever evolving thing as well.
Are you still drinking or did you finish the drink? Okay, good.
Yeah,
Like peer pressuring you, you still drinking? Um,
yeah, don't worry. I, the Irish, um,
the, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're probably bread.
might just grab another one
Yeah. Go for it.
Just needed that top up.
right. So, uh, let's do a fun one. What's a, what's a controversial, let's actually, let me reframe this. What's the most controversial point of view you have about architecture?
I mean, we covered a decent one there around the education system, actually. oh,
That was overused though. And I can say that because I overuse it a lot.
No, but I mean, just because I was in it recently as well, I think it was, it was quite, it was quite, I think that's part of it, but in terms of, I'm just trying to get in terms of the profession itself, like I've kind of removed myself a little bit in some ways from it, which is funny, you know, with how I, the work I do and the way I've been doing it with Snarkitecture or how I'm doing it now myself is that I'm not a very traditional architect anymore.
I feel a bit more further from it, like I can't relate as much to the intellectualizing, sitting around a table, everyone, just, like it becomes everything, like I still go see buildings when I go to cities, you know, like I do do that, and yes, and I get a kick out of it, it does inspire me, you know. but there's almost an incestual thing going on that I don't like the industry where it's all encompassing. And I also like other things. I like sport. I like, I like food and I like cooking.
So like, I see that as, as much of an interest and as, you know, as fun. As, as just going, like people base their whole holidays and going to buildings, you know, I'm pretty sure you've, you've got
Oh, they
that.
what architects do. They travel and they, and they go see all the buildings. And I think, yeah, I think you're right. I'm almost to the point where it feels guilty. Like, I mean, I can still feel guilty traveling and being like, I'm not going to go see any building, I guess, like, because I don't know, other things are just happening, but I do feel guilty being trained as an architect, not doing that.
And you're trained to do
yeah,
Every trip we did, in university was like, we would go to Berlin or we would go to Helsinki and the whole trip was going and see nonstop buildings.
It's just exhausting.
And there was nonstop party at the night. So it was a mad mix.
Yeah. In reality, what you should do is you should just go like sit in the town square,
Yeah.
people that probably be equally as educational as going to 10 buildings in a day.
What's all about people anyway. Yeah. exactly. In the end,
This is a fun way to end it, but what are some of the biggest takeaways from all of our sessions together?
Yeah. Well, I think, you know, all of it has been incredibly, you know, helpful for me in terms of, you know, starting this, whatever it was eight, 10 weeks ago. I like to get to this point, but you, it's just been incredible to actually have a project and the systems that we've set up. And I think. You know, it goes back to the start of learning about the initial, you know, let's think about the marketing and the outreach and the emails to everyone and like going through and doing that process.
And then following up for people, I think it's just been, it's just been like, yeah, I've really enjoyed that. And I think, you know, high level consistency is, is an absolute critical item there. I think consistency and setting up your meetings and during the week to check in on different items that you're working on. I block out time for marketing, time for business development, I think those are really important.
I think you're always good at like, you know, implementing and, and, and, you know, being key directional around that. I think other stuff that like, I'm trying to think off the top of my head. I mean, everything has been so helpful. It's just like all of it, but. yeah, how to navigate the clients and stuff and just like finding clients is obviously, it's, it's just a huge void that we don't actually educate. We talk, we just came from the conversation around the educational system.
There is no concept as to how you get a client. 'cause the client is the one who has the money to, to, to, initiate the project. So like with that void, we're just like all of us. And that's the biggest, I think that's the biggest skill gap we have as all of us as architects, we're, we're well able to sit with a glass of wine, intellectualize and city squares around like the, the politics of that current country. But then when it comes to like navigating, finding a client.
Or putting yourself in a uncomfortable position to talk about, you know, business and money. We just don't do it. You
I'll do it. Because it feels beneath us. It feels, after all of that, after all of that, it essentially feels beneath us, which is,
like the biggest thing I learned from like working with you and all the things we've done together is it's okay to be a salesperson,
Amen. Amen. Yes. You are a salesperson.
I am.
single person that's listening to this podcast is a salesperson.
Yeah, it's the truth. You know, I'm, I don't feel bad about any of that. I mean, we, and this is coming back to the education conversation. We were, it was, it's kind of seen as a bad thing to go out and go for money, to want to make profit, to want to have a thriving, not saying a thriving business. I think a thriving business in their mind is incredible projects is what you're kind of educated for.
But, for me, it's been a kind of a mindset set shift, you know, around, around my relationship, with money, with, the idea of business and, and. I want to bring in good work and great projects that people can Really enjoy and I can't do that unless I meet the right clients and the right clients have Significantly interesting budgets, you know, so that doesn't happen without knowing how to do that. And there is like the biggest issue.
And I'm sure everyone that's going to be listening on these are on your newsletter. They it's this, it's the problem. It's like, it's how do we get there? You know, how do we get the extract the clients and work to get the business to grow?
Yeah. Break the stigma, break the stigma.
So, and you know, and I think this is going to take time. You know, I think it's going to take time for it to sink in and for everyone to be open to, making that change, that, that, that, that, that mindset shift.
I think it will, but you know, it's, I've found it after writing about it and speaking about it for, you know, coming up on three years now, I think what I've, you know, the way, the way that I think about positioning in it now is that. Money is it's, it's a vehicle architects are the vehicle from the client's current challenges to their solutions, essentially. Right. Just like, just like architects are that vehicle money is the same way. It's, it's a vehicle.
For, better benefits for better salaries, for a better lifestyle. So it's not, it's not like you want money for money's sake. It's like you want money so that you can, you know, celebrate, celebrate your family, celebrate your friends, celebrate your
Yeah. You want to take your team out for a lunch. and you don't want to care. You want to, you want to, you want to do a trip, you know, it's like you can do a lot of fun, positive things.
Yeah. It's you know, that, and you shouldn't, you shouldn't feel. Architects should not feel poor. They should not feel tight in my, I mean, all of this work for it. And it's, it just doesn't make any sense. And, you know, I think where people, I think maybe feel most comfortable when you, when you feel most uncomfortable about it, I think it's because you're thinking about, Oh, I'm, it's like, I'm charging too much or I'm, I'm taking money from people. Right.
It's, um, I think, I think it's that part about it that you feel uncomfortable about, but the reality is that you're giving so much value, right? The things that architects do literally impact people on a daily basis, right? You're, you're designing and creating these spaces that people spend their entire lives in and you know, the, the return on investment on that is basically like, it's, it's astronomical. It's you can't even, you can't even calculate it's yeah, you're right.
It's not quantifiable. And so. You know, the value that you're providing is immense. There's literally, I don't think there's a number, there's not a number higher enough that you can charge for that, in my opinion, right? It's just a matter of, it's just a matter of getting up to it. And so
But this is, and again, this is the thing, you know, and then as we've gone through together is like, you know, whether it was talking about proposals and, and, and, you know, a big thing for me that I I'm, I'm doing on a, implementing on a weekly basis, if I'm looking at a new lead as the discovery call, and then looking when we get to the proposal, the tiered pricing and all that stuff is just like, so helpful in terms of skills.
To allow yourself a better opportunity to land something, you know, rather than off the cuff willy nilly on a call for 15 minutes.
yes, amen. And that's where most people start, but you know, that
And I'm sure there's way more hacks in your newsletters,
Yeah. Check out the newsletter to learn more
Yeah.
¶ Reflecting on the Journey and Future Goals
yeah, I so appreciate your willingness, for everyone that's been listening, you know, thank you so much for your willingness to be so open about this, to allow us to record these consultations and, to put them, to put them online and for it to be the first season and we all congratulate you and we're all rooting for you to continue your success. So thanks so much.
Well, no, I appreciate it. And of course, look, I mean, it's, you've been integral to getting me off the ground and all the conversations we've had are really, really important and, you know, I appreciate you being again with your time and, and, and, and, and your concise and constructive feedback all the time. It's just been.
It's been great and, I'm delighted that I did this, you know, I'm delighted that I was part of it and that we have it there as an archival thing, almost, like it's happened, you know, and, you know, it's, it's, we'll revisit it.
Awesome. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you. All right, friends, that's a wrap on season one of the Growthitect podcast. I would be so appreciative if you're able to leave a review and let me know what you learned and go to Growthitect. com slash join to subscribe to the growth attack newsletter. So you don't miss out on free business growth hacks and updates on season two. Thanks for being awesome. And I'll see you soon.