From Nest to Next: Navigating the College Transition with Dr. Dylan Larson-Konar and Laura Barr

Oh, excited to host again, Dr. Dylan. That's what I'll call you. Cause I know that's what most people call you, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. And you've become our kind of a partner in mental health. And, um, we have a longstanding relationship with Birch psychology and, uh, shout out to Alice and their whole team, and especially Dylan for offering this service to our community. It's really important, you know, Getting kids into college is one thing. Having them thrive when they get there is another part of our, um, belief in philosophy is that parents really need to be a big part of that conversation. I don't think in our culture we honor enough. This incredible transition from having a child from birth to high school, 18, and then suddenly they're gone and there's a lot, a lot, a lot of emotions come with that. And a lot of emotions come as the, between 16 and 18. And then also when the students are gone, um, I also just want to call out that I just got back from a. Sprint run. So I am bright red and stopping wet. But, um, if you are in, um, need of some encouragement of taking care of yourself, let me model that for you. So there we go on that. Dylan, I want you to go ahead and just introduce yourself. And then we do have some questions that have come through and, um, let's just get started. Lovely. Yeah. So I'm Dr. Dylan Larson Konar. Um, I wanted to introduce myself just in the context of this conversation and sort of where I'm coming from, uh, in terms of working with adolescents and college students. Um, so, of course, myself was, was the college student a long time ago, transitioning, um, since that point of work to 2 different college counseling centers at the University of Florida, and then also at the University of Colorado in Boulder, where I imagine, um, some. Some parents have Children going to or wanting to go. And then right now I work at Birch Psychology as a postdoctoral fellow, and I'm currently working with some college students and also with a fair number of sort of late adolescence. So around like 16 to 18 and have been working with them as they've moved to a point where they're going to get ready to go to college or are starting to think about it as well. All right. Thank you. I'm just going to dive in. Dylan, is there, is there like a road map for preparing kids? And parents emotionally and mentally for the transition to college. Yeah, I was, I was thinking about this question a lot as I work with my clients. I would say that right now, uh, for students who are about to go to college and say, August or maybe September. The task is 1 of sort of building autonomy and being, uh, sort of at a place where you can feel more independent and more autonomous from your parents. Uh, so then the task is really less about. Yeah. Like a parent doing something necessarily to emotionally prepare their child and more about sort of this joint task of sort of letting go, which I think can be equally difficult. And you talked about this not being something that we talk enough about in our culture. And I think that that process of sort of letting go is another thing that we probably don't talk enough about in our culture. And what's difficult. I think is there's, there's an aspect where you have to sort of let your child. a little bit through this process, potentially feel some discomfort, uh, while also sort of preparing them or creating like a sense of scaffolding around what it might be like. So just to offer a kind of a quick example of this that I've seen be effective is that, um, rather than, for example, uh, calling the counseling center for your child, uh, telling them who they are, setting up the appointment for your child, talking about your concerns, maybe that looks more like, uh, Talking to your, to your child, figuring out maybe that's something that they want, giving them sort of the website or asking them, um, you know, is this something that you've thought about and then giving them space to, to make those decisions themselves. So, I think a lot of what emotionally preparing your child looks like is, is sort of stepping up in the sense of, of course, you know, like, maintaining that care for them and, and, and sort of thinking ahead for them to certain degree, but then also stepping back and I think for a lot of parents that stepping back is actually the harder part. And the stepping up, you know, we, um, Hannah, maybe we can add later, but we create, we have a launch checklist. Cause I think part of what you're talking about is like, we can be doing that now, but in some ways I think it has to start like two years early. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And so we created a little checklist for our families. That's like, are your kids making their own doctor's appointments? Are they advocating at school for needs and, and doing that gradually? So it's not like a big shock. So I really appreciate what you're saying. I think, um, one of the things that I've noticed, and especially since COVID is students aren't leaving home as much before they're not getting practice. It seems like summer camps aren't. Kids don't go to summer camp as much and there's not like go stay with your grandma for a month like when I was growing up and so I am hearing a lot of students homesick. Um, advice on that. Yeah. Well, one is I just want to reiterate that point that you made about sort of preparing almost like two years in advance for some of that points, because I think that that's. Like at this stage, when your child is late 17 or 18, and they're actually going to college, a lot of what you're doing is relying on sort of the modeling or the lessons that you've implanted up to this point, rather than really doing anything active right now. So in terms of advice for homesickness, if I can kind of go back a couple of years. One piece is that one thing that I really see a lot, um, with college students is just stuff around avoidance, whether that's like emotional avoidance or not feeling comfortable feeling their feelings or things like avoiding scheduling that doctor's appointment to get to your point of homesickness. Maybe it's like avoidance of, of reaching out and trying to find a new community, which could be something that would really like help bolster that sense of homesickness. And the students that I see that are often the most successful are those that have this sort of instinct where if they feel a sense of fear or discomfort or anxiety, they're able to sort of identify maybe where that's coming to and then they take steps to approach that. So there's a lot of ways to model that right? Like. If you're, if you're, if your child or student is sort of nervous about something, whether it be like a summer camp or something smaller, uh, providing support, but then encouraging them to actually do the thing that they are then afraid of, um, and then modeling that in yourself. So that's 1 thing that I think is really preventative for, for homesickness. In terms of initial steps, I would say like that home sickness is really, really normal and typical, especially I don't know if we have any international parents or parents of international students, but especially in that case, it's like, very normal. And if it's something that your child is talking about, or worried about for like, 1, 2, 3 months, it's, it's just not something I'd be particularly concerned about. Um, if it led to, if it's the, we're talking like, 6 months, or if we feel like they're isolating, then I'm going to be more concerned. Um, but I think that again, like, supporting them, calling them, talking them through that, connecting them, friends, maybe from high school, uh, maybe fall break is a time where they can sort of get, uh, sort of like reintegrated a little bit into their, into their sort of high school friend community. But I think that that discomfort. Is like pretty normal and also maybe beneficial because that's often what leads people to then push out and do some things that might be out of their comfort zone, whether it's like joining a club, or whether it's sort of sitting down to someone else at lunch and introducing themselves. So a lot of those things for some students, especially more introverted students. They just don't happen unless they feel some homesickness or unless they feel some anxiety. So, yeah. Yeah, I would, I would just say that it's not necessarily a bad thing. And I think we're going to talk a little bit more about sort of like warning signs for real concerns. I was actually just going to ask you that because there's like a fine line, right? There's like, okay, you're doing okay. I actually, as a parent 10, when my kids went to college, I was so over trained on like letting them go. And I think sometimes I wasn't paying attention to some of the warning signs because I was like, you got it, you can do it. You don't need me. I'm the parent who launches great kids. And then like, what, what is the difference between that anxiety that's good and the anxiety that's not good? And how do we know from far away? Yeah. Right. Yeah, it can be hard to know from far away. Um, and then everyone has really different routines about how they, like, for example, would like call or FaceTime their child during college. Um, I mean, 1 thing is like setting up a regular time, maybe like once a week where you're doing that and you're checking in. Um, another thing would be like trying to figure out ways of contacting your student in case something like that word happens. So you would know. So maybe that looks like getting the numbers of roommates. Um. I was also an R. A. Like a resident assistant when I was a junior and senior when I was an undergrad. Um, and we tended not to have direct communication with parents, but we're like, working for the student in a lot of ways. Your R. A. Is like the 1st responder to your student. So, like, for example, I was, if if a student was like. Drunk to the point of being incapacitated. I'm the one who's going to send them to the hospital, or if a student is isolating in the room for like a week at a time, I'm going to be the one to know. Um, and then I notified it for us. It was the director of student life. So, finding out like, who that person is for your student for your child in their school. Um, and then you're probably not gonna be able to talk directly to the R. A. Just because those positions are they're sort of like shielded from managing parents, just because that's that's a lot of extra work for them. Yeah, right. Exactly. But they're going to report to someone else. He's part of the administration. And then that person is also going to be a point person that you can have their email or their phone number. Um, and if you are concerned, they might be a point of checking in. Um, I would say you're right that that line is really hard, right? And it's going to be different and context based for each student. Um, we talked about sort of like healthy anxiety or healthy stress. And that's the kind of stress that might push your student to do something that is empowering for them or sort of like, it makes creates more independence or creates more community. And then often I can see with when I work with people who might Reach that level of clinical anxiety or clinical depression that there's a little bit of a, like, a sort of vicious cycle going on. So, for example, student is so anxious that they feel as if they kind of aren't going to interact with anyone, or they're not going to go to that next event and that's sort of happening. And then, and then in doing so, maybe they feel like. A loss of community, which then sort of saps our energy and you can kind of see where you would hope that that would push them forward. But instead, it seems to be pulling them back. And if you're sort of noticing that pattern of that vicious cycle enough, that's, that's when I would start to be concerned. And by enough, I think I just mean a certain amount of time. Um, I think what I like about what you're saying is that, I mean, it actually goes back to what you're saying is building in some systems from the beginning, the communication piece, like, at least I want to hear from you. Once a week. Yeah. I mean, it's so different when I went to college, like we had a telephone, right? My parents didn't even expect me to call him. Like I went to school and then maybe I called him a couple of times. Then I went on Thanksgiving and now I think parents may have the expectations that their students would be in close touch and they don't hear from their kids and they get kind of anxious. And so it's hard for us to know because we don't know what's happened. We don't even know what's happening. So, I guess, not hearing from kids would be a pretty big red flag if they don't respond to you at all. Or if they're responding too much, that could be, if they're constantly calling you, that could be a red flag. But what about... How do we tease through, like, are there specific questions that could lead us to, because I really appreciate what you're saying, but it feels, it felt like if I were a parent, I'd be like, how would I even know that that's happening to my students? Yeah, right. And I think that it is more limited, right? Like, your knowledge of it. And I think having maybe certain expectations around calling or around like how frequently that is, when are we checking in, uh, is one way to actually know. I think one answer is that you're probably just like not going to know as much. And that's part of that. Like you said that like, in a lot of ways you are encouraged to let go more. And I think I'm imagining that different parents are at different places on that spectrum. Yeah, so I think knowing less is going to be part of that discomfort for parents that like, they might just have to manage in the same way that you're, you know, the child has to manage more anxiety. Uh, in terms of specific questions, um, I mean, I would be curious about, um, I'll, I'll lump this into three different categories based on a psychological theory. I like, it's called self determination theory. Self determination theory is based a lot on on the development of sort of intrinsic or internal motivation to sort of succeed. Uh, and it's interested in 3 different broad categories. 1's autonomy, 1's relatedness and 1's competence. So, this, this is like a, you can kind of think about this almost as like a checklist. So, with relatedness, I'm going to be. Asking about or thinking about, like, their relationship to their roommate, their relationship to other friends, uh, their feeling of connectedness potentially to, like, classmates or to professors or to T. A's and the extent to which they're feeling as if, like, that they sort of care about me and I care about them. That's probably the number 1 thing I'm gonna pay attention to. Uh, the next is more academic and that gets around competence, which is do they feel like they have, uh, like, the ability to sort of master the content that they want to. Thank you. Academically that also may be like different things in their own life. So, like, maybe they don't, they're not comfortable with laundry, but they feel as if they can sort of, like, take steps to get to that point where they can do it, you know, and that gets to the last point of autonomy, which is like the ability to feel like you can sort of control your own path in life. And then, as their freshman, they're not going to feel like that initially, but if you can see sort of growth in that, um, that's another thing I'd be paying attention to for a student is, like, how much control do they have? How much control do they perceive that they have over the different elements of their life? Because when that, when that's at zero, that's when we see things like learned helplessness, if people are familiar with that, that's sort of this idea of you feel helpless to resolve the different conflicts or situations in your life. And then even when you actually can resolve them to such an extent, you sort of learn that you can't or perceive that you can't that you then don't take steps to even try. Um, and that would be sort of, like, the bottom end of that feeling of autonomy so that hopefully that offers a little bit of a guide. But you're right. It's hard to know. And as your student distances, I also am not I wouldn't be shocked if they, like, offered less, you know, in terms of how things are going. Then they then they might have before, uh, though it's hard to say, because often I see students when they're seniors in high school are actually pulling away more from their parents and are providing more resistance. And then, once they get to college, the, like, the natural distance that college provides sometimes actually improves those relationships, or actually makes a student, like, more interested in talking to the parent or providing more because I think that they feel less of they feel less of like a. Pulled actually separate because they are separated already so you can just go in a lot of different directions. I love that. Um, that's self determination. That is really helpful because that gives a framework. It's a framework for questions to ask. Um, if you're on that call with your parent, I mean, your child on a Sunday evening asking questions like, you know, not so much like, how are the classes? Is But more like, do you feel prepared for the classes that you're in? Do you feel like your high school prepared you? Um, are you, how do you feel like you're managing your time? Um, so instead of being like, how are you? Or, you know, how are the classes? To get more specific in the question asking. Um, I'm thinking even that around competence, like the academic question, but also like, just curious, have you done laundry yet? Uh, um, or, you know, when do you think you're going to do that? Just more out of fun, not like trying to be a nag. And then the relation piece to, um, I think asking questions like, Hey, have you ever taken time? Tell me about a professor that you've met. All right. Or do you ever have a chance to go out to dinner with your professors? Like maybe asking really specific questions. It reminds me, actually, I was a kindergarten teacher for years and I used to teach my parents, um, don't ask. What did you have a good day to a kindergartner instead, say, who did you sit next to? Yeah. Who did you, um, what book did your teacher read today? Um, what was the song that you sang? So in some ways, and I've said this for so long, that mentoring high schoolers is not that different than mentoring kindergartners. It's really just a different level of that building autonomy, right? Right. And self determination and competence and all of that. And the whole point of being a parent is to get them to the point where we can launch them, where they get to play in a bigger field. And when you play in a bigger field, it's going to be harder. You have to have more stamina. You have to be, you have to use those muscles in a new way, which means there's going to be times that are going to be rough. Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's great points. Um, I think that, especially for the 1st, like, 6 months of freshman year, I think the highs are higher than normal and the lows are sometimes lower. So, like, I think that if they feel loneliness, like, they hadn't experienced before in high school. But, but it's like, they feel that for a night and then the next morning they're feeling better or even for a couple of days. Like, I'm not that to me is just part of going to this new community. That's you're probably gonna feel more lonely. But then also, like, that's sometimes are often paired with, like, a sense of excitement and hopefully there's like, excitement around classes. There's an excitement around being able to control their own schedules. There's like, an excitement around, like, living around so many different peers. Um, so. Yeah, I see both of those things to your point. It brings up for me, um, in some ways, no matter what, no matter what learning profile your student has that really, it might be advantageous to front load some of these things. Yeah, say this like I never thought about ever saying that to my kids like, Hey, I want you to know that you should expect to feel highs and lows. Yeah, you should expect to be like, I'm on top of the world. I have the best friends in the world. And then you like crash when you don't get invited. Or you don't get, um, you don't get the bid for sorority or fraternity. Those kinds of things can really, I've actually, I actually had, um, I won't get too into it, but somebody that I knew who did not get into the sorority that she wanted and she left the school within a week. And it's hard to put yourself out there and to not be accepted and to be able to, like, as you said, like readjust. I will make a quick, um, call out to, um, This you can get these on Amazon talking college card deck and this is, um, these are, this is created by the woman who we're actually going to be interviewing her soon. I'm super excited. Her name is Andrea Hannah. Do you know her last name? Uh, Malcolm. Perfect. She did these cards and she wrote a book called, um, doing college or something like that. And I think these, um, these are ones, you know, again, maybe we should be talking about it. Yeah. earlier, not just a month before college, but heck, why not? I mean, if I had kids college, I'd probably have these on my table because there's a whole bunch of things in there that do kind of front load and prepare that we might not, if parents even remember, and even psychologists might not be thinking about this, right? These little things, but sometimes it's those little details that can. Blow up in our face and have those. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love those cards too. I have a similar sort of card deck for, uh, for like different forms of therapy or coping strategies. And I find that like the cards are actually a lot more helpful than a book because they're just more accessible. That's right. And then you can practice some more. Yeah, totally. Let's see. Um, what about, let's just assume we kind of get through that first beginning period. What about sustainability of mental health over time? I mean, we've had incredible conversations in, in our, um, this, I'm kind of calling it a podcast, even though it's not really a podcast, but it feels like a podcast growing good humans. We actually interviewed an amazing amazing expert in the field on title nine. Um, and she really addressed a lot about sex, alcohol, drugs, and the role that that plays in mental health in college and the kind of things that can happen when students are drinking and doing drugs. And, um, man, that can really create some, some serious challenges. Um, how, what's, what's, what's your psychology, like, what, we need another, um, we need another theory to help us through this. Yeah, yeah. I was, I was thinking about substances as we were having our initial conversation, because it's obviously a huge part of, of college. And it's, I mean, high school students come into college with different levels of experience or different levels of use around alcohol and marijuana in Colorado. I mean, I'm seeing a lot of high school students who are, who are vaping nicotine really frequently. And we're also smoking marijuana or like, eating it very frequently to, um, what's probably different there though, is that there's not like an adult present to sort of like, moderate that use. Um, so, I mean, I don't know. I've seen, I see a lot of college students. Especially freshman or sophomores who have pretty problematic drinking, and then it resolves itself through time, but then also sometimes it doesn't resolve itself. Um, and like, a lot of college is weird with the norms. So, like, I'm gonna bring this up in two ways. One's with alcohol and one's with socializing. So, with alcohol, there's such a norm. Around, uh, like partying and alcohol use and like, maybe like 6 or 8 drinks being normal when we know that that's considered binge drinking and can be really harmful, but, like, being around it as a norm sort of, I think, really impacts. The way that you drink and the way that you encounter substances, uh, and there's this, there's this finding in social psychology. It's called pluralistic ignorance. It's this idea that, like, when people have an idea of a norm, then sometimes that will impact their behavior, even if the norm is wrong. So, for example, in, in, uh, my undergrad. Uh, there's this idea that like people drank a lot, uh, and then if you were to ask someone like, how, what's the percentage of students that really drink a lot on campus, people would probably say like 80, 90% of students, but the number was actually like 50% when they, when they were asking people and, and like, because of that false norm, I think it actually increases drinking, uh, which could be a conversation with your student or just something that they could be more aware of is to sort of watch out for that. The other way this comes across is through socializing. It's a little bit different from your question, but, but I wanted to point it out from an earlier. Earlier conversation we had, and it's not like when you're on college campus, it's easy to get the idea that everyone is always social constantly. And it's because when you're out and about, you're seeing people often who are also out and about. And what that can create is like an enhanced sense of loneliness, because you feel like, man, like everyone's always socializing. And like, I'm not seeing as many people as other people are seeing. So it's another way in which sort of like a false norm gets in your head. And through social comparison. Which we know among our teens and then college students is like is intense. It can make you feel as if you're more isolated than you actually may be. And in comparison, other students, maybe you feel like you're more lonely or more isolated than they are. And that's usually not the case. It's usually just a misperception of how often people are socializing. Wow. I mean, I think a lot of students have some familiarity. Familiarity with that just related to social media and that, you know, right. Fear of missing out. And it's so present everywhere. And here I am alone on a Friday night at college reading a book. And, um, I mean, it's. I think that's another way to kind of front load like these are things it's like I want all my students to know before they before they go because it's set it resets the norm, right? Because what is actually the perceived norm is not the perceived norm. And if students have maybe a self talk around that, like, I know, I feel I know that I feel Um, lonely. I know that this is a feeling. I know that this feeling is maybe out of line compared to what Is actually happening. I mean, I don't know. Maybe you could give me the self talk because I'm not. Yeah, no, I think that that's that's totally right. Uh, it's sort of like I'm having this feeling of loneliness. Uh, that feeling is, is like real. And I want to validate that in myself. Uh, part of the reason I feel like this is I think that other students on campus are doing better than I am. I kind of know logically that that's not really true. So I want to like validate. The feeling that I'm having, but like all the thoughts around it, I can identify as like, yeah, those are probably those are probably not true and that, like, it's okay for me to take time to myself if that's what I need. Or sometimes I don't get invited to stuff that that's okay. That's that's the norm, you know, and that, like, other students are also feeling the same way. I am. Do you, um. Do you, I'm thinking back to, um, when I was back when I was parenting and I used to say stuff to my kids, like be okay with saying no, but then I always tried to say what to let me help you what you can say yes to, so let's just say we're alone on a Friday night of that feeling of loneliness. What's that next? Let's see. I'm gonna see if I can get this right. What's the next? I mean, in that self determination, it would be maybe just that ability to control your own life. So it would be autonomy, right? What would be the autonomous next move in one's thinking at that moment? Yeah. Well, one thing I really liked, um, helping students doing it works for myself too, is like when I'm having that feeling rather than trying to like fix it now. For example, by going to try and find out to do something is to plan like a social activity into the future, uh, that I can then like, And then I often find that that like really helps the feeling or provides relief to that feeling now Um, see I would often people are more likely to say yes to because people are more likely to be like Oh, I can hang out, you know in four days or tomorrow as opposed to like, what are you doing right now? So i've had i've had a little bit more success with that. I really like that. Do you Are you in a position to explain why, why that works better? Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I just think that it's, I think it's more likely to, for people to say yes. I think that like often, uh, one way that like, and we're, we're talking about just sort of. Normal loneliness here. But one way that depression works is when you're feeling really down, depression can convince you that the feeling you're having right now is gonna last forever. And that it's also like broader and more global than it actually is. So maybe like you didn't get into your sorority to use your example, and then maybe the thought is like, I'm alone, people don't like being around me, and that's gonna be true. For the rest of college. So if you can just do something into the future that sort of convinces you that what's happening now is actually quite specific and quite time limited, then it has a good way of just sort of cutting or like deflating that like natural expanding sense of like depression or anxiety. Cause those, those emotions, those like tendencies will take up a lot of space if you sort of let them. Wow. That's great. I just looked at my clock for the first time and it's 1230 and I'm like, Oh my gosh, that was so amazing. Dylan, we can, we plan our next session after this, you know, let's get our next topic on the books. Your input is so valuable. I am, I, we are going to send this Hannah to. All of our people who are leaving. And actually I think we should send it to our students because I think even though we're kind of like, how do parents help? I think this is really valuable, specifically that self determination piece, I think it's really valuable. And as always, we like to stop on time. So we get people keep coming and watching. So we're so very grateful for you and everything that you do for our community and we can't wait to see you again. Yeah. Thank you so much. Can't wait to, can't wait to join back. And thanks, Hannah. I forgot to introduce you. Oh, I'm good. I just sit here. You're a very amazing moderator. And I always forget to introduce you and express my gratitude for you, too. So, thank you. Of course. Thank you, Dylan. Bye, everybody. Bye.