Michele Benyo | A Mother & Daughter Living Forward After Loss

Victoria Volk  0:08  
This is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com, and you're listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss as a 30 plus year Griever. In advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion toward those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief like we talked about the weather? Let's get started.

Welcome to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Miss Michelle Benigno. She is a certified Grief Recovery specialist parent, mentor and founder of good grief parenting, whose purpose is to support parents who are raising young bereaved siblings after child loss. Her mission is to be a voice for the youngest of Grievers and to help parents nurture and understand the unique needs of children who have lost a sibling in early childhood. When not helping parents, Michelle enjoys adventures with her daughter dinner with friends seeking out Keto Recipes to satisfy her sweet tooth, and hiking the woods and light country of beautiful Minnesota. Thank you so much for being here, Michelle, as well.

Michele Benyo  1:35  
 Thank you, Victoria. I'm glad to be here. 

Victoria Volk  1:38  
And what I'm excited to have you here too, because you are a fellow certified Grief Recovery specialist. 

Michele Benyo  1:45  
Yes, ye.

Victoria Volk  1:47  
I know your backstory. But my listeners don't. So would you please share what brings you to grieving voices today? 

Michele Benyo  1:54  
Well, I have always been in the field of children and families and had my own two children and was parent educator and early childhood family education, which is part of all the school districts in Minnesota, when my four and a half year old son was diagnosed with cancer, and my daughter was 15 months old. And we battled that that demon for two and a half years before my son died at the age of six. And his little sister was three and a half. And she said to me, mommy, half of me is gone. When her brother died, they were very close. They were best friends. It was her only sibling. And here I was in the field of early childhood parent education. And I was so aware of, you know, the needs of kids this age, but this was just parenting 101 all over again, it was just not the same thing. And I and this was, this was 20 years ago. So my daughter is now grown. And back then i i thought i had access to a lot of resources that a lot of people may not readily have. And yet I could not find anything that really helped me know what what she really needed and what to do for her. I mean, she said half of her was gone. That's heartbreaking. And it's just not okay. And what do you do with that as a parent, her whole lifetime was ahead of her. I really knew then that as a an early childhood educator, I needed to provide this resource. But I found over the years as I studied it, I found every book that I could and over the years, there were a few more resources that became available. And I just learned everything about sibling loss and early childhood loss that I could and now I am in the past few years since my daughter's graduated and is now a young adult I've I'm starting to just really tried to reach out to all the families I can who have this little child who probably didn't say to them, mommy, half of me is gone, but yet had that feeling of really having lost a sense of self when their sibling died. So that's really what my what my mission is. I say that her her simple six words are what really defined my very specific purpose of working with families who've lost a child in early childhood, because that's that formative time of life when not only are coping skills and social emotional skills being developed in kids, but just that whole sense of who they are going forward.

Victoria Volk  4:36  
I'm a mom to three kids and I can't even imagine I've interviewed several parents who have lost children and I that's a loss. I can't even wrap my head around and like a friend of mine shared a song with me the other day just kind of because I was recently reminiscing about how fast time flies and just you would never even the podcast recently recorded I was just think reflecting on it.

Even with a child loss, you would never take away that relationship or choose to not.

Michele Benyo  5:05  
Right. 

Victoria Volk  5:06  
That relationship or yes, even though it hurts so badly when you lose in person, right? But right, it doesn't make it any easier. So how did you first really make it through those early days without the resources you personally with your grief and in your marriage? 

Michele Benyo  5:26  
Mm hmm. 

Victoria Volk  5:27  
And then address with your daughter,

Michele Benyo  5:30  
I knew right away that what I needed was or what I wanted was help for her, I really have to say that her loss so far overshadowed mine in my mind, but I also, we were connected with children's hospitals in Minneapolis. And they at that time, had a wonderful bereavement program. And I really credit, I mean, that the person who was the bereavement coordinator at the time really was a lifeline for me. And so I had that support through what they offered. And one distinction that I, that I want to make with families is that when you have this tremendous loss, and it is so devastating, and parents never will get over it, they have to learn to assimilate this grief and this loss into your life going forward. And when you have young children, it's like their life can never be quote, unquote, normal again, because it's just, it's got this presence of grief throughout the rest of their life. That doesn't mean we can't be happy and enjoy life, but it just really does change things. But what I want parents to know is that counseling and therapy is not the only way to get the support they need. I knew I didn't need therapy, or a counselor, the the grief support group was really helpful to me, but then I was on to Okay, now how do I get my family? You know, how do we go? How do we live forward and be happy. And the grief support group didn't help me do that. So that was the piece that was missing. And I will say that as a family, we had gone through my son's law, my son's cancer as a family. The four of us were together all the time, my daughter was 15 months old when her brother was diagnosed, and he spent much of the next two and a half years in the hospital. And when we were there, both of us, she was there. And a lot of families don't do that, because they don't want to, you know, expose their little kids to that. But the children's hospital had such a good resource for the siblings. And I'm so grateful that we made that choice, because without that, my children wouldn't have the chance to develop the relationship they that they did, and for her to have the time she did. And she grew up with an understanding of that of cancer and what it does, and life and death in her relationship with her brother that she never would have had if we had protected her from all of that. And so we went through it very well. But we did end up getting divorced soon after. And a lot of people jumped to the conclusion that we were you know that that's what happens. And I, I don't necessarily agree with that. And in our case, it was a matter of, well, it wasn't because of what we had been through, we actually grieved together very well and mutually supported each other very well. And we still do to this day, but we did end up divorcing within a year after my son died. You know, I felt like I kind of had had the inner resources, I have a strong faith. And that was huge for me. And along the way in our son's illness. I just got a lot of affirmation from my God, that he was in this and that he was upholding me and upholding our family. And so my focus very early on really became my daughter.

Victoria Volk  9:04  
I had goosebumps when you shared about your daughter, being able to have the time to that relationship with her brother. I'm just I think back to my end of life doula certification training, where we talk about just positive impact that being with the dying has or the ill people, you know, people in hospice, what that does for the family members, if they can embrace that, and what it does for their healing. 

Michele Benyo  9:33  
One of the things I share with families that was what I took up early on, was the whole idea of making lemonade, and it's not a new idea, but the way I look at it is you know, we got this lemon and Deanna got way more than her share of lemons at that at that tender age. And we can either bite the lemon and notice that it's sour and hate that it's sour. We can put it on the counter and say I'm not going to do deal with it and let it rot. Or we can slice it up and say, Okay, I've got this lemon, I'm going to add sugar, I'm going to add water, I'm going to stir it, I'm going to make the best lemonade I can. And that was the attitude that I had to have with her life because I was always looking at her life saying, This is not what I want for my daughter. And to this day, I still feel that way. You know, because I see all the years that she grew up through, without her brother, and we live next door to four siblings who are my children's ages. So she's grown up her whole life next door to four siblings without hers. And so that my message for parents, because this sounds, this probably sounds hopeless. And and it's not, you know, it is I think the idea of the lemonade is this is what we have, and we don't like it, but we'll make the best of it. And then I think the important thing for families to know is that that sibling relationship really is important. What I did with Deanna was nurture her relationship with her brother continue the bonds, which is part of what families are so often told to let go of the child they lose, or the loved one that they lose, not to focus on that I had a woman tell me once that I focus too much on my son, and that probably upset my daughter, she didn't have a clue, frankly, because nurturing, remembering my son and keeping him part of my daughter's life as someone that had loved her and that she had loved and that she had this connection with was really one of the best things I could have done for her and is one of the best things that parents can do. So that's something that parents struggle with. I know because they want to remember their child. And people tell them no, that's not healthy. But on the contrary, it really is very healthy. And it's a good way to allow their children to to maintain that relationship. One story I tell is when my daughter was going into first grade, I think, and she was going to a different school. And she said to me, mommy, how old would David be if he were alive now. And I told her and she said, Oh, good, then he'd be in school with me. And he wasn't there. He wasn't going to be there. But she took comfort in the fact of knowing that, that he would have been if he were alive. And that gave her comfort in some really odd way. Losing a child is so crushing and so devastating. And there's no way we can ever replace that relationship. But there are ways that we can nurture it going forward. And that's really part of my message for parents, thank you for sharing all of that. And one that that came to my mind as I was hearing you talk is this idea that that relationship does continue. And if we don't allow children to give voice to that, we are shutting their them down their information down those those feelings that they those sensations are things that they feel with their loved one being there with them, like I feel them with me. But if they aren't allowed to communicate that, or the parent gets upset when the child mentions the other child who's who's passed away, that really just keeps the child from grieving. Yes, yes. And research shows the the books that are out there now about early childhood are about sibling loss in childhood, really support the fact that the adults who have grown up bringing that sibling relationship forward, consider that to be such a good thing that it really has been a good thing for them. And we are afraid of grief. I mean, you're doing this Victoria, you're talking to people all the time about the ways that people in our lives don't know how to support Grievers because we're just as a society, so afraid of it. And it's especially as true with children. And yet the best time to learn about grief and how to deal with grief and how to honor it is when you're a child, because we all experience Well, it isn't always the loss of a sibling or appearance. Sometimes it's you know, moving or the death of a pet or divorce or something like that. But we all have those experiences in childhood. And those are the times for us to build our resilience skills and our coping skills and to understand that grief is part of loss of life that we will live with and that we can still live well with. 

Victoria Volk  14:35  
I love that last line and I love how you say living forward. 

Michele Benyo  14:38  
Mm hmm. 

Victoria Volk  14:40  
So what was your experience your personal experience as a child with grief?

Michele Benyo  14:45  
Well, it's interesting you asked that because I do have a story that I share. And part of what I also really feel is true about my being on this in this place that I'm in now is that it really did start in my childhood with the way that I was parented because I was quite a sensitive child who was called a crybaby, my feelings, my hurt feelings, my pains were were not things that the adults around me like when I talk to parents sometimes or adults ask them to think about when was the first time you experienced grief because I guarantee you it was way back in those early years. And the first instance that I remember was a time I grew up on Lake of the Woods in northern Minnesota where the lake is, you know, goes on, you can't see the edge of it, it goes to the horizon, I was at the beach with a riding toy named Wally, the walrus of blow up walrus, and he got away from me and started to float away. And of course, I couldn't get him. And some adults tried to get him and nobody could get him and I just had to helplessly watch him drift away. And to this day, I remember that feeling. And it's something different than sadness, it's that sense of loss of something that you'll never get back. And that's a very different feeling. And yes, he was just a riding toy. But I had to stand there and watch him float off into the sun, you know, into the horizon. And I felt so helpless. And of course, the adults around me, were trying to tell me all it's just a riding toy, oh, we can get another one or Oh, go play without it. Or you know, all of those things that we kind of say to children when what they're feeling is very real. Now, as an adult, I wouldn't have that same feeling about Wally the walrus floating away. But then, you know, it was in my little life. It was quite a crisis. And that's the first experience of grief that I just really vividly remember. 

Victoria Volk  16:49  
I love that story. Because, again, you make that distinction between our taught how to acquire things or people in our lives, but we're never taught what to do. And we lose them. 

Michele Benyo  17:00  
Right. 

Victoria Volk  17:00  
Yeah, like we're, you know, taught in Grief Recovery, right. But I'd like to kind of come back to child loss how your daughter throughout the years than how you helped her throughout the years and how she's been shaped by this loss? 

Michele Benyo  17:17  
Yes, I had to do a lot of advocating for her and, uh, because I recognized that well, and I want to tell you one more thing about her as if the the word she told me at three and a half, because I really want people who are listening to your podcast to hear this. My daughter is, you know, precocious and articulate. But she's not unique in what she feels. And the first night that my husband and my son were at the hospital the very first night when her brother was gone. And she was 15 months old. Then she wandered around the house, just wailing the sound she was making was terrifying to me. It was inhuman, and I could not comfort her, she I would go to her and she pushed me away and throw herself on the ground with every cell of her body. She was feeling that something was terribly wrong. Her dad and her brother were gone. And she knew from what had been going on around her that this was a bad thing. And so children really do feel this and they carry it forward. And I saw it in her in the friendships that she tried to make. She tried to find people to be hers friends, that would be her friend that she would be their friend that they would sort of be hers that wasn't met very well by a lot of kids. Another piece of advice that that I would give parents and it was something I tried to do, that I believe would have made a huge difference for her is if you have a child who has had a loss, whether it's especially I'd say if it's a sibling, but any kind of loss like a parent, try to help them get connected with another child their age that has had the same experience. Because when they're the only one going through this in their peer group, there's so much about their responses to the world and to law, you know, to other relationships, like living next door to this family of four siblings, who had been friends with her brother as well as her and now had each other and she didn't have anyone that was such a tremendous source of pain for her over the years. But if she could have had someone that understood what that feels like, I know that would have made a difference for her. So it is difficult. The flip side of that she is such a sensitive, She's sensitive to other people's feelings. She's so smart and wise about other people's pain and she is She has such uncanny ways of recognizing what people need and how to respond to that in really supportive ways and this is another thing that the that the research bears out is that a lot of times these kids grow up with these sensitivities. So she didn't have necessarily the typical social skills. They had these other really amazing social sensibilities about what's going on with people. So they are different children. She's a different child. But you know, she is who she is. And she's beautiful. And she was shaped by her losses, no doubt, and had a lot of challenges because of it. 

Victoria Volk  20:32  
I feel like you're describing me in a low because I, I lost my dad when I was eight. 

Michele Benyo  20:37  
Okay. 

Victoria Volk  20:38  
But then I had some other things that happen in my life thereafter. But just like you, I was called The Cry Baby and couldn't show my emotions, and I'm an empath. I know that now. Oh, my gosh, it took me like 30 plus years, 35 years to figure that out. 

Michele Benyo  20:55  
Yeah. 

Victoria Volk  20:56  
Sounds like your daughter is much, much the same. If she's starting to step into those gifts, because it can feel like a curse. 

Michele Benyo  21:05  
She isn't she's not too long out of college, and is really feeling like she needs to not have obligations. I mean, she is working, but she's not necessarily working in her career field, or in these areas where she really is so gifted, because she just kind of needs to be her and grow into herself now. And she's really doing that and feeling much better about that. Because she's out of the environments where there were there was so much comparison that she felt she didn't always measure up to. So and I think what you bring up is, which is why another piece that I just think is important, and I don't have any specific ways to do it. But if parents recognize, and I think one of the biggest things I did for Deanna was no matter what she was receiving outside, from me, she was receiving the understanding that I knew what was going on with her, and that I supported her and that she had these gifts, and that, you know, someday people would see these things in her but how tough it was to be surrounded by people who didn't get her. So the one thing we can do as parents of children who have these experiences is just say, I understand that when you're angry, you're not being a bratty kid, necessarily, you know, there's more going on here, and just advocate for them. So I hope she steps into it, I'm so glad that you are doing this and that you're sharing your gifts, because it is so huge that you're doing this and that you're you know, shining a light on those things that you came to understand later in your life better, better late than never, you know, 

Victoria Volk  22:50  
Better late than never. And I think too as you know, the sooner I'm a mom, right to three kids, but it's like I look at their younger years. And just think of how differently I would have parented them. Had I worked through a lot of the stuff that I've since worked through, oh, yeah, asked, yes, three years. And that's the thing with addressing our own grief, as parents is the greatest, the greatest gift we can give our children is working on ourselves. 

Michele Benyo  23:22  
Yes, absolutely. That very first number one thing in my course, and in my working with parents is very first number one thing is you must take care of yourself. That's not selfish. That is the best way to help your family. Because if you're not taking care of your grief and taking care of your needs, you know you're chilled. You are a role model for your children, first of all, and yes, absolutely. So what has your grief taught you? I mean, you've shared a lot. But is there anything that personally, your grief has taught you? It's just It's taught me that there are really heartbreaking things in life, but they are in life. They are part of life, nobody's immune to it. And there are ways to just I mean, really make the lemonade. There are ways to just say, this doesn't define me. I can live forward, walk forward, see my way forward through this. And it's going to change everything, it changes everything. But it that doesn't mean it's bad. I of course I yearn for some of the things, you know, some of the care I would I yearn for a carefree childhood for my daughter that she never had. But this is good too. And so really, I think you're part of your message and definitely a huge part of mine is that we we have it now. Just what grief has taught me is that there are gifts in it. Just like there are gifts in so many other things in life. Some of our greatest gifts come from the, from some of the hardest things and would I give up all the gifts to have my son back? Oh, you bet I would, I wouldn't think twice. But yeah, grief has gifts in it. And that's why my program is called Good grief parenting because grief is good. It is really how we heal. And people who refuse to face grief, or to deal with it are the ones who have the hardest time, not the people who who consent to and allow themselves to just feel the pain of it, because that is how we heal.

Victoria Volk  24:37  
I want to bring up a point or a question. And then I have another point. I'm just gonna make a quick note here. So I circle back to it, you know, did people sometimes look at you and think you're just Pollyanna, like, you're just really pot like this is just to pot like you're too positive about your greed? You know, because you had resources, and you had different trainings that other people didn't consult, I can imagine that others would look at you and who are maybe grieving themselves at first, without really knowing you thinking, oh, yeah, that's, that's great. You know. 

Michele Benyo  26:22  
No, it was strong. It was strong. That's the thing that people say. Because when people look at a family that's lost a child, and you know, I'm sure and in other environments, if you've lost a spouse, it can be similar, no matter how you are, when people look at you, they're they're gonna see this, you know how awful that and devastating that is, because they can imagine and that's, that's why I champion the sibling too, because the parent child grief is so front and center for everybody that they don't even think about the child. But what people would say to me was, you're so strong. And I know a lot of us as Grievers, get that, that accolade, and it's not that we're strong, it's like, what do you expect us to do be this heap on the on the ground, this puddle on the floor. And what people do when they say you're strong, is they say, they think she doesn't need any help, she doesn't need support. So then you don't I, you know, over the years, I felt like I just really didn't get the support that I would have, would have loved to have had from other people who just wanted to come around me and be there for me, not that I needed any big specific thing from them. But for anyone listening, you know, really, please take that to heart that the Griever, who looks like they're doing so well, still really needs for you to be able to say I'm missing that David isn't here right now, if you're the neighbor with all the kids or you know, whatever. So it that was really the piece that I experienced more. And I will say that I went back and was doing early childhood parent education again after my son died, and really got so much positive feedback from the parents in those classes, because I was able to talk with them about their children. And sometimes I'd tear up you know, we're talking about little kids, my children's ages and and I'd say this is just something I I do, don't worry about me, I'm okay. But you know, and they just really felt like I was a good example for them. And so that was really heartwarming for me because I do feel like more people saw me as an example than a Pollyanna. I don't remember anybody really looking at it that way.

Victoria Volk  28:52  
You know, it's like when people who are really in resistant to looking at their grass, you can look at people who have come on the other side of it, or who are working through it and have a positive attitude about it as being Pollyanna or like this, it's great over here just come over here you know not that's the heartbreaking thing for me is and maybe for you too and doing this work is that you see people just suffering.

Michele Benyo  29:21  
Yes, that's why I say it's like Yeah 30 Suffering suffer and move your feet. Yes, you can do both and and move living forward doesn't mean you don't hurt anymore. I still to this day will have what I call my temper tantrum moments. I still have them. I'll probably get off this podcast and sit there and say, Michelle, I don't believe I sat there and just talked about this like it was nothing and I may cry for a while because I still I want my son back. I want my daughter to have her brothers still I still have my little temper tantrum moments, but we have a good life. We're living forward, we can never have him. But I do hear what you're saying. And I'm and I'm sensitive about it. Because the grief community kind of deals with it differently. There are there influencers out who really affirm those people who say, people try to tell you, it's going to get better, it's always going to hurt. I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying you can live forward. And that's why I work with young families, because how heartbreaking if the parents can't live forward, and they've got a three year old daughter who said, Who feels half of me is gone. And I have met, I have met some of those adults, I have met adults who were those three year old daughters who say, I wish you'd been there when my parents lost my sibling because they were absolutely crushed. And they never recovered. And that is heartbreaking to me, that doesn't need to happen. 

Victoria Volk  31:00  
And for the child, it's as if they've lost three people. 

Michele Benyo  31:05  
Yes. And they've lost their future too, because I'll never be the same. 

Victoria Volk  31:10  
Yes, thank you for this conversation. Because I really feel like it's an it's part of loss, especially in young children that hasn't been addressed on this podcast right yet. And I think it's, I think it's so important because I identify as a child Griever. And I understand what that feels like. Yeah, but I also and I was the youngest of four siblings, I was kind of an only child, my, my brother was 14, you know, when our father passed away, and so I was kind of left to my own devices. Really? 

Michele Benyo  31:39  
Did you get I mean, do you feel like any of you any of the children got much support out? Or not? 

Victoria Volk  31:47  
No, no. And again, it's my mom had her own grief that she had, yeah, he was not dealing with it, she did not. She didn't know how there was nobody, nobody, like when you were speaking about talking with, you know, pairing that child up with somebody else, there was nobody, right. Nobody knew what to do with me. And so they just didn't do anything. 

Michele Benyo  32:09  
Exactly. And I live in a metropolitan area. And I still was not able to accomplish that for my daughter. And I will say that, you know, I'm doing what I'm doing because of my daughter. At the same time, I recognize that I do recognize that I had resources, and a mindset as an early childhood parent educator going into this that most parents don't have. And so when I work with families, I start from the very beginning, I start with that self care, I start with those, I call them good grief beliefs, all that stuff, we learn in the Grief Recovery method about how we regard grief in ways that are not helpful. As adults, we need to learn that first so that we can look at what our children and our families really need. So even though My why is my daughter, what I'm doing now, really addresses what the parents need as well. And parents in those little towns like the one I grew up in, where there's no grief sander, there aren't a lot of you know, there aren't probably grief therapists that are really trained in grief up there. I can be reached, you can be reached, those of us who are doing the online presence can be reached and be support for those families. Because it's really a helpless place to be and we haven't learned how to deal with it. 

Victoria Volk  33:39  
Yeah, and especially with COVID-19. 

Michele Benyo  33:42  
Yes. 

Victoria Volk  33:42  
They're lost the families and everything have experienced on top of any other sibling loss that they've had or loss. As a parent, you lose a child and the child loses a sibling. What were some of the things that you saw? Now you you had the education and the tools but for a parent who may not how can they recognize if their child which we both know the child is going to be grieving, but I know for me personally, people probably thought I was doing okay, right. I wasn't an outward I didn't lash out. I wasn't angry. You know, I didn't I didn't have outbursts. I was tardy a lot I had problems concentrating you know, these other things. 

Michele Benyo  34:30  
Yes. 

Victoria Volk  34:30  
Many people would probably say is ADHD or right you're something like that, which is, in my personal opinion, sorely misdiagnosed for grief in a lot of cases. But what what are some of the things that you can points you can give to parents things to look for? Like? 

Michele Benyo  34:50  
I would just say that I want to say you say you wish you knew now what are knew then what you knew now when you started parenting your child and I feel the same way I have conversations with Deanna now and say, I wish I could go back and do this over again with you. Because I know so much more now. But one of the biggest things is yes, we don't think we we don't, they're, they don't show their grief in the same way. They show it a lot through play. If you pay attention, they'll they'll grieve, and then they'll, and then they'll just appear to be fine, because they can't hold on to grief very long, it's intense for them. And so kids don't grieve continuously, they grieve in spurts. And a lot of times, they don't look like they're grieving, but you can be sure they are, because they, you know, they were aware of this person, they love this person, even if it was, you know, a really like a, even an infant sibling that they didn't have there for a long time they know that presence is gone. So just as parents know, that whether they are telling you or not whether they appear or not, they are grieving. And you can initiate conversation in really simple ways. By acknowledging if they see you crying, you can say, Oh, I miss I miss your brother today, do you miss your brother sometimes, too, you know, just give them an offer. And they may or may not talk, and that's okay. But you are telling them, it's okay for them to talk about it. So the first thing I would say is don't think about trying to protect the child from grief, because they're they're grieving, whether you see it or not. And the best thing you can do is invite conversation and open the door. You know, take care of yourself so that they can see, you know, Mommy is having a hard time right now. So I'm gonna just go, you know, sit, sit outside in the sun for a while, because I'm feeling really sad. And I need to take care of myself, and you can come out with me or, you know, let them know how you're dealing with it in a positive way. Invite conversation. And the other thing, you know, that I as I mentioned earlier, is that idea of nurturing the relationship with their sibling, simply simply by speaking the person's name by saying, oh, you know, if David were here, he'd love to play that game with you, or those kinds of things are normalizing. They're not, you know, parents are afraid to bring it up. I mean, it's just like my daughter saying, Oh, if her brother were here, good, he'd be in school with me. You know, they like the idea of the sibling, whether the siblings there or not. So just helping parents change that mindset. And so the conversation piece is huge. And they acknowledging their own grief. And the way that they're taking care of it is huge. Honoring the child's grief when they see it. This is that, you know, Grief Recovery method peace. And I include this in, in my little good grief guide that's available on my website, some real specific ways to respond to children's grief, instead of the, let's get your mind off it response that we have so often. So those are some concrete things, any parent, if they just let go of their fear of saying the wrong thing, or making their child sad when they're not sad? If you can just let go of that, and allow grief to be normal? Let your child know that you feel it. And yes, they feel it and it's okay. That's one of the hugest things you can do for your child is just not be afraid of that grief and just talk about it.

Victoria Volk  38:49  
I love that. Now, does this change with age? Like how you respond anything? when? When is there? When is the line where they need more help? You know, what you're seeing? 

Michele Benyo  39:03  
Well, this is this is my caveat, I guess, is that I'm an early childhood parent educator. And so my focus is on the early years and all of this formative stuff. And a lot of people who know that I do this work will say Oh, my friends, you know, teenager died and their 12 year old is suffering. And I don't feel nearly as well equipped to deal with that, because I know it's different number one, and because some of the things that are so helpful have have already gotten in place in that, you know, maybe the family doesn't talk about tough things. So then it's hard to suddenly start doing it. But I would say that with those with older children to opening the door, not allowing grief to be an elephant in the room. And sometimes the kid the the children will, you know, maybe not appear to be receptive, they won't want to talk and if they don't want to talk, don't force it. But just make it always available. You have social workers in schools, people that you can talk to, if you feel there's something going on. Just know too, that when you see kids who have experienced a loss, doing behaviors that you know, that are not typical for them anything that's not typical for them, they're not eating the same, they're not doing the same activities. They're not suddenly they're not good in school anymore. Sometimes a child can start being a people pleaser, because they don't want to upset the adults around them that are dealing with grief. So you know, anytime a child's behavior kind of shifts in a way, where you're not sure what it's about, and they've experienced a loss, you know, it's time maybe to take a look at that. And, and one of the first things I did also with my daughter, I did find her child counselor, therapist, even before her brother died, because I knew he was going to die, so that she just had someone to go and do play therapy with for those early years of her life. So yes, just giving them opportunities. And being mindful of something that's that's uncharacteristic would be my farangs. In the information that you filled out for us recording, there was one part that you said you that you've experienced miracles, and I'm curious, what miracles Oh, well, my faith is is such a huge part. And I experienced miracles in along David's journey and some things that were better than, you know, the original diagnosis appeared to be one thing, and then it was like, we got a reprieve. And that wasn't it at all. And we sort of got this reprieve, and I really felt that was miraculous. But it was more about some of the things that I personally got. And they're, they're not real short stories, but I'll try to make them short. One was that before my son was ever diagnosed, I was in a Michaels store. It was He was God, his cancer. We found it in December. And there was this yarn Angel. And for some reason I wanted to buy it. I don't typically buy stuff like that it was just this yarn Angel. And it was called the angel of peace. And when I went to buy it, I just thought, Oh, I wish it was the angel of joy, because that's what Christmas is to me. A few days later, my son was diagnosed with cancer, and I was just really so aware that that angel of peace had been had been given to me for a purpose. You know, the fact that I saw you know, the fact that I even cared what it was called, was just really a message to me. The other thing that is truly a bona fide nobody can argue with it miracle is so when my in the midst of my son's cancer, there was a weekend in the fall where my husband took our two children to visit his brother in another town, so I could have the weekend to myself. And one of the things I always do in the fall is make apple Chris and I had this family recipe that was the best no comparison, Apple Chris. But I had lost that recipe years ago. I knew I had it in the house we lived in but I had somehow misplaced it hadn't been able to make it for a number of years. But every fall I would still rifle through everything in my kitchen and look for this recipe and I never found it. So this weekend when he was gone with the kids, I started to rifle through the kitchen again. And I stopped and I stood in the middle of the kitchen and I said God, you know where this recipe is and if I don't find it, I'm going to go crazy. And I said that and I stepped aside and I bent down like this and I looked under the edge of the cabinet on the wall and from the back of the cabinet between the cabinet and the wall. There was a little corner piece of paper sticking down and I pulled it out with my thumbnail and it was my recipe card. No one I have that recipe card in an in a plastic bag now because it's got God's fingerprint on it. That is that's a bonafide miracle.

Victoria Volk  44:31  
I got goosebumps in that story too. 

Michele Benyo  44:34  
And I also heard my son talking when he his cancer came back. I heard him talking one night his has his dad and I both heard it on the intercom. And my son was saying, I don't want to die. I don't want to die. And then he said, All right, I'll come and so I knew you know, I know and that was a miracle. And that was a gift to because I knew. And when we talked to him in the morning, we kind of said, oh, you know, did you talk to anybody? You know, he didn't remember it. But that night or that a couple days later, when we were in the hospital, he was talking about Jesus. And he was saying things we had not told him. So, yes, there were miracles, there were miracles.

Victoria Volk  45:33  
Thank you for sharing that. And I think it speaks to the importance of our faith. Yeah, go through things like this. And, and just really understanding that just because our loved one passes, you know, and I don't know, there's all different kinds of listeners with all different systems and things. But I personally believe, which I didn't always, because when my dad passed away, like for many, many years, probably the next 20 years, I thought when you die, you go on the ground, and that was it. Like there was no afterlife, there was no continuation of the, you know, the spirit. I've been woken up in a lot of different ways to them, but and especially with my end of life, doula certification training, it's really helped me open my mind even more. 

Michele Benyo  46:25  
Yes, I can imagine.

Victoria Volk  46:27  
 And so I'm curious, was that always for you? This? You know, this belief? 

Michele Benyo  46:32  
Yes. Yes, it really was. From the time I was a young girl. And, and I do credit. I mean, like you that I recognize that, that not everyone shares the same beliefs, and so much of what I offer, you know, I just, I want parents to hear it and take value from it, no matter where they are in their own hearts with their beliefs. But as for me, I know that my relationship with God and Jesus and my being able to count on him, I mean, when people say, I'm strong, I say, that's what it is. I'm just assured. And, and I do look back at my life, I, you know, I told you that I feel like this journey and this mission of helping parents understand, you know, this, the deep part of what children need from them to affirm these emotions that are really difficult, like grief, a started for me as a child, and because I didn't feel like my parents were that way. And yet, I always had that relationship, and my sisters didn't. So you know, I can see that difference and know what a difference it's made for me. And that's another piece that I'm so grateful for, because I always say, Why me? Why do I have this relationship when others in my family don't? And I'm not sure why. But I have always had it. Yeah, 

Victoria Volk  47:59  
Well, and even for the relationship to continue after your son passed, right? If we have that take comfort in that knowing that we can still talk to them exactly. can still feel their presence, if we really just sit in, maybe ask Mm hmm. Being open to asking for that. 

Michele Benyo  48:20  
Yeah. 

Victoria Volk  48:21  
Message or whatever it is, or you know, that feeling that can bring us great comfort. I know you mentioned to there was an author and Roiphe? Roiphe.

Michele Benyo  48:32  
I, you know, I've only ever seen her name in print. So I say Roiphe, I'm not sure if that's how she pronounces it. 

Victoria Volk  48:39  
Before. She says there's Yes, grief loss and the remaking of a life. Yes, love that. 

Michele Benyo  48:44  
I do, too. When I when I came across that early in my knowing that, you know, I wanted to help with families with this, I thought that's how I make the distinction is, there are so many people that are there to help us deal with loss, and thankfully, so the grief groups of therapists, all of those, what I want to do is step in, you know, behind that or concurrently with that and say, yes, now we need to remake life, we still have life, but it's not the same, it can ever be the same, but we can remake it and we can choose how to remake it. And yeah, I love that quote. It's just very simple. A very simple but clear way of looking at loss and grief. 

Victoria Volk  49:26  
So what would you like to scream to the world and wish that people knew and understood about sibling loss about your grief? I mean, you've shared a lot of great wisdom, but is there anything else that you can think of?

Michele Benyo  49:43  
The two things that I would scream, you know, the two things that are so well three things that are so important to me the first one is that we need to talk about grief and normalize it and not be afraid of it and support people in the midst of it. I mean, we just really need to be able to talk about it. And the other piece is for people to really understand that siblings hurt any sibling, any sibling that you talk to whether they lost their sibling when they were 50, or whether they lost them when they were five, you know, they, they will tell you the same thing that people really didn't seem to, you know, take into account their grief. And it is, it is so identity shifting for every sibling to lose a sibling. And so that is something that if someone said you can just give one message to the world, Michelle, it would be know that siblings grieve and help them grieve and help them through it. I know I said, there were three things. I don't remember what the third one was that popped into my head. But yeah, those are the two things really. 

Victoria Volk  50:50  
Do you see a lot more people coming to for support on when their child loses an only sibling, like when they only have just the one sibling that Pat like, like, if there's just the two children and one passes away? Or do you know, because I think there can be this comfort as a parent that you would take, if one child passes and there's two others, you know, have another they still have another sibling to support and, you know, walk through life with but I think it's important to not take away though that the individual relationships are still individual. 

Michele Benyo  51:25  
Exactly. And and you're right. And I thought about that a lot. Because of course i I'm doing what I'm doing. You know, I founded this on my one experience with my one daughter. And that's not at all universal, you know, every child is going to experience it in their own way. I think the idea that the sibling bond is strong for all siblings, I think that's universal, but it's not going to be as painful for every sibling. And it's not going to look the same way for every sibling. I have worked mostly with families that have, you know, just the single remaining sibling. And I yeah, I look forward to looking working more with families who have more children, because it is you may have one child who's really really suffering, and one child who is adjusting better to so yes, you bring up such an important point. And it, it's a good point to make any way which is not all kids are the same. Not all children are like my daughter. So I use my examples. But your child is totally different. And I recognize that. And if you've got more than one child, you're not going to have a one size fits all way of helping those children through their grief because they're going to do it differently. 

Victoria Volk  52:40  
Well not even just thought of when there's multiples, you know, yeah, twin and your twin passes, but yet you have other siblings, and yet that was your twin. Yeah, yeah, or triplet, or whatever the case may be, or, or you lost one of your siblings at birth, as well. And there's so many there are those right? Like there are, throughout your grief experience, what has given you the most joy and what gives you the most hope for the future. 

Michele Benyo  53:10  
You know, the most joy really has been, as I've started to do this work, and I've had parents for whom it's made such a difference. That is, that is the greatest joy for me to know that someone is seeing, you know, the name of my my course that I offer is see your way forward after child loss. And that that is really what I want to help them do. And for a parent to come in and say I just didn't know how to be a parent, I just didn't know how I could do it. And just, you know, just six months later have a totally different view of seeing their way forward. And I do I use the word living forward because I don't want to say moving forward, that's not the right connotation. It's we're going to live and we're going to go forward when we're living forward. And we choose how to do that. And that gives me the greatest joy is just knowing that, that what I have offered has has worked has been a key for some other parents because as I said, you know, I knew I was working from my own experience. And if there's anything we know in grief, you know this because you've talked to so many people, it's, it's different for everybody. I can't tell you what I did and say now go out and do that and you'll be happy. That's not at all what I what I try to do or want to do or believe that I can do and so when what I offer does help someone make their own way. That's the greatest joy. And what was the other question you asked? 

Victoria Volk  54:47  
Hope for the future, your hope for the future? 

Michele Benyo  54:50  
Well, that's the same thing that gives me hope because the other piece as we know, those of us who have worked with the Grief Recovery method that is that whole mindset around grief that needs to shift. And if I can teach parents how to do emotion coaching and things that build really good coping skills and resilience in their young children, and help their children grow up with healthy attitudes about how to deal with grief when it comes, because it's going to come again, then those children are going to grow up and be adults who know how to do it with their own children. And that that is hope. So I look at it as you know, it's not just the families that I'm helping, it's the legacy that they're going to build that's going to be carried on by their children. And that's really, that's really hopeful. And it's intervention. Mm, yeah. I love that. It's the ripples of the work that yeah, yes, exactly. Is there anything else you would like to share? No, I know that I've gone far and wide, it's not hard to talk with you about these things, there's just so much to say, and I just, I just really want to invite people anywhere to visit my website, www dot Good grief parenting.com. And I'm putting on there, I have a community page where I'm trying to just provide places for people to tap into what can serve them, you know, the things that I do the course that I offer, the coaching that I offer, and make them aware of the podcasts that I'm on, because there are so I'm just discovering, as things have changed so much in the 20 years that I've been on this journey, I just really encourage people to look for the resources that are out there and find the ones that speak to you and serve you, and read and be open to absorbing some different ways of looking at grief and recognizing that it really can be good. It's not something to avoid, and protect our children from because it's just a part of life. And, and it can be an in, it can be an enriching part of life, or a debilitating one it can choose, we choose Yes, and that is the whole point. And I like to, you know, encourage people. But yes, and and not choosing to live forward is a choice, as well a choice to stay stuck in a place that doesn't feel good. So that's why I just really do encourage anyone listening to your podcast to, you know, you've got so many examples of stories, and there's so many good resources out there and be open, be open and you don't have to let go of your loved one healing does not mean you leave your loved one behind. And that's something I know a lot of parents struggle with. They don't want to quit hurting over their child because then they're forgetting their child and they don't want to do that. And that's that's really not true. We can live forward with them. 

Victoria Volk  58:05  
I love that. And you mentioned your course, which is your way forward after child lost its weight program. 

Michele Benyo  58:11  
And all of that information is on my on my website. 

Victoria Volk  58:16  
And I will have the link to that in the show notes as well as where people can find you on social which is yes. 

Michele Benyo  58:22  
I prefer Instagram. I'm at Michelle banjo underscore Good grief. It's Michelle Banya with one L, M I C H, E L E, B, E, N, Y.O. And there are two of us on Instagram. So I'm the one with underscore Good grief. 

Victoria Volk  58:42  
All right. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for being my guest today is been my honor to have you and for sharing your story of cumulative loss, which is never have I had an interview with someone who has not had cumulative loss.

Michele Benyo  58:58  
Yes, exactly. We don't realize it until we start looking at it. Yes. So thank you Victoria for the opportunity. I've just really enjoyed talking with you and really enjoyed looking at your podcast as well. So thank you. 

Victoria Volk  59:13  
Thank you for listening. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love from my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you're hurting know that what you're feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.