Hi, everyone. Welcome again to the Greening Urban Futures Podcast. This is Anna Jones, speaking from Helsinki, Finland. We are happy to be back and we have a new season to talk about the future of cities. For that, we are asking the futures and foresight community, the urbanist and others, to give us their views on how they work to anticipate changes in the years to come. On this episode, we have invited Carlos Moreno.
Carlos is an associate professor and scientific director of the ETI, the Entrepreneurship Territory and Innovation Lab at the Sorbonne University in Paris. But Carlos is perhaps better known for his pioneer concept, the 15 minute city. We start the conversation by asking Carlos to tell us about his beginnings growing up in Columbia, and how he became interested in the issues of the urban environment. Let's listen. My personal journey is, uh, totally related to my professional
activist. Uh, I am a lucky man because I, uh, my family is, uh, close to my professional work. My wife is a French artist and totally committed for, uh, developing with her artistic expressions. My daughters are totally committed for, uh, imagining an ecological, uh, better life. And, uh. And Carlos, you were born in Columbia. Where did you grow up? How did you leap over to France? Uh, as a very young.
Researcher, uh, this is a very long history. Uh, I wrote, uh, recently a book when, uh, for the first time, uh, I, uh, evoked my personal situation, uh, in particular in Colombia, the right. I was born in Colombia in a small town in the, the mountain near to 3000 . My father was an farmer. And for the professional questions, I think that this is not a question for surviving my father, my mother were constrained to, to move to the different cities.
And, uh, in reality, my le city, where I lived in Colombia is, uh, Cali. This is the opposite of, uh, is in the tropics, uh, 300, three thousands. It's very, very cool. And Cali is, uh, just, uh, 100 meters, very, very hot. Uh, Cali is, uh, a very, very nice city. Was a very intellectual city, very young city with a lot of, um, uh, students, uh, cultural activities. And I, um,
I went to the university in Cali. I was, uh, committed in this period in the, uh, for, uh, joining the different, uh, uh, students movement, farmers movement. And I was constrained to leave, uh, my country during the summer 79. And in fact, I have decided to, to leave for gonna Paris, where I arrived as a political refugee for, uh, refugee rebuilding my, my life. And Carlos, looking back, would you say that Cali was a 15 minute city? , Cali, say, wonderful city.
This is the same thing for the different, uh, cities in Colombia, because this is a extraordinary country. Uh, we have, uh, a real deep transformation. Uh, when I, um, have decided to, to live, uh, Columbia, uh, we had at this moment maybe 40% of, uh, German dwellers, 60% of, uh, rural people. Today, 40 years after, we have, uh, 30% of rural people,
70% of urban wells. The information of cities in Colombia, this is the same thing in the America, that in America today, we have, uh, 84% of after North America, the second continent, more urbanized, including Latin America, is more urbanized than Europe. In Europe, we have 77% today. The cities, when I lived in, in, in Cali, for example, the different cities, including Cali, were a kind of, uh, 15 minutes city because we had the multicenter places,
we have the multi services in different districts. Uh, I lived in the very, very vibrant neighborhood. We had used to play in the streets to to, to play football, to, uh, use bikes. Uh, we have the local chops, uh, we have the green areas. And in reality, in just to 40 years, this, uh, magical, uh, vibrant, uh, life, uh, with the, the different, uh, proximity have disappeared.
I think that 40 years after, uh, we have, uh, uh, outstanding transformations for unfortunately going to the former, uh, livable, uh, neighborhood to the, uh, own human cities. And this is today a new challenge for, uh, for Cali, for Colombians to refine this former quality of life. Carlos, you're leading what you have called the movement live in a living city. And I think listening to you speaking about Columbia and Cali, uh, makes me relate this leading movement of yours.
To those beginnings, what do you think is in the horizon for the living and living city as a movement? Um, in fact, uh, I embrace this concept, uh, living a living city. When I had this, uh, extraordinary opportunity for studying, uh, the different, uh, lesson of, uh, uh, the strong commitment of Jane Jacobs, uh, in North America, uh, in sixties and seventies, I discovers when I'm living in France before to live in, I wasn't interested for studying the German questions.
I was passionate by mathematics, computer science. This is my first discipline reality. When I, uh, arrived in, in France, I have, uh, continued to develop, uh, um, my expertise in mathematics, computer science. I discovered Ed, the French sociologist or philosopher, the father of, uh, complexity. I discovered with, uh, this vision that, uh, it's impossible to solve the problem of cities without a systemic,
without a holistic view. For that, it's not enough to have the, uh, high level skills in mathematics or computer science. We need to understand the question of, uh, philosophy, sociology, the complexity of the city in reality, based on this triple challenge, ecological, economical, and, and social. And at the same time, I discovered Jja corps. Jja Corps, um, coined this concept of the leading city. J Jacobs said, uh, we needed to transform our German life for
generating more vibrant neighborhood. Uh, ZKO said, uh, we need to reduce the role of cars because we need to, uh, give the public space for the international people. Uh, we need to mix people in the streets. My, uh, idea on, uh, to live in a living city is totally inspired by these two people. Jane Jacobs, as a activist, committed for a more livable city, and Edgar as a French of philosopher, uh, for understanding our urban life as a complex in interdependence between the ecology, economy,
and sociology. At this moment, I have decided to switch from the technological way, from the techno center way, from the mathematics and computer science way, the way of the design of services. They rediscover more liability for, uh, developing cities, for human cities, for people, cities, for, uh, cities dwellers. And I don't think that you're alone there. Carlos, uh, Jane Jacobs has left us a legacy of very interesting, uh,
ways of looking at the city from the human aspect. You said, and, and I quote, that our civilization, um, has evolved from 19th century of imperial domination to a 20th century of nations domination to a 21st century of urbanization phenomenon. There is obviously a shift, if this would be a pendulum, what do you see at the signs that are anticipating these changes? The, the sentence of, uh, the t the the 19th century,
uh, was the century of, um, empires. The 20th century, uh, was the century of, uh, state nations in the 21st century will be the century of cities. Uh, it's a sentence, um, uh, pronounced by, uh, Mr. Wellington Webb in 2000, in seven, when he was the former mayor of Denver, the USA in Colorado. And at the same time, it was, uh, black mayors President of the Association of Black Mayors and President.
At this moment of the, uh, USA, um, association, um, of majors, I, I consider that, uh, this, um, expression, uh, was very, very powerful because in a new challenge, we could, uh, anticipate the develop now and the challenges in the 21st century totally related to this double transformation. My, my, my good friend, Skeen Skeen is a famous sociologist international,
uh, sociologist. He was, she was born in Netherlands, grew in, uh, Argentina, she lives in London, and she's professor at Columbia University in New York. Saskia Hassen coined in 19 two, the global city concept. Saskia Hassen said in 19 two, uh, the power of cities will become more important than the power of several, uh, states.
The GDP of lot of cities around the world is already more important than the GDP of, uh, different state nations that, uh, take part, uh, in the international institutions as United Nations. And Saskia said as well. Cities, uh, have a big opportunity for developing their own model, for creating more local, uh, economical activities for developing, uh, more social interactions. And cities should be the, the places not only for living, but for, uh, originating a real quality of life.
I was very inspired by Saskia . The role of cities, uh, was very visible, uh, during the Covid 19, because for the first time in the history of, uh, the modern humanity, uh, we, we were constrained. The 15 minute city concept in reality was inspired by this idea of the globalization, the sask asen. When cities, um, need to have a different role, and we could, uh, observe that in reality we have on human, uh, life in our cities, uh, cities, we have accepted long distances, long commute.
We have accepted to misuse buildings with the single, uh, functions we have accepted to loss, our social interactions, we have accepted to loss, uh, our useful time.
And the 15 minute city in reality, uh, was for me, uh, this, uh, new way for saying that we need to stop, uh, this, uh, on human life in cities for, uh, transforming our different cities, regardless of its size or density city for rediscovering more humanity, more liability, more, uh, local resources, local employment, local activities for the public space, for regenerating more social and economic activities for, uh, banning the pre predominance of, uh,
of cars for banning the prence of SEL cars and for, uh, giving a said 50 for peoples. When we think about urbanization, there is a case for compaction, compaction for, for densification. Um, let's talk a little bit about that. We need to reconsider the debate on the future of urbanization, and for that, we need to examine our past.
The key element is that we have accepted to continue to live in cities shaped by the certifications in the legacy of the Athens Charter of, uh, the modern urbanism proposed by LE in 1933. The Athens Charter was designed out our cities for seven decades. We have accepted the certification. We have accepted this segregation fragmentation with the corporate districts, with the cultural district, the reside areas, re areas for the wealth people, for working class, et cetera.
The question, in my opinion, is to make a real difference between the z unified city for going towards a more polycentric city, a more integrated city. A lot of people have discussed on densification reality. It's relevant to make a difference between densifications and the urban policy for overcrowding
our cities. On the one hand, we have ified, we have considered that the normal in cities is to have long distances, long commute by this traditional separation between the, uh, functional activities. We need to densify for mutualizing our services. But we need to densify in a humanistic way and in a organic way.
What means with that in a organized way, because we needed to escape from the over clouding with the big, uh, uh, building for residents in the second functions, uh, with the very poor materials. We need to identify with the city of people, the social category, the social functions with the organic materials, with the organic density for having ization, for being resilient in faced with climate change and for offering lot of
services in this proximity. Uh, it's not enough, uh, to have an apartment for living in a city. We need to have different services around it.
With the 15 minute city, we have created another element for this cruising, not for densifying or not, but for, uh, bring a real quality of life in a organic, uh, scale, in a human scale for offering, uh, the place, for working without a long commute, for offering the local shops, the local commerce, for supplying for developer, the short , for developing medical services, for having access to a school, to the cultural activities, and for enjoying in the public spaces.
The question is not densified or not in the vertical, uh, architecture. The question is, we have the possibility for offering a real quality of life in a social mix with the functional mix for offering a lot of services in a human scale for accessing to a high quality of social life. This is, for me, the real debate. This is for me, the real challenge.
And Carlos, let's digest this a little bit. We could say that many cities, especially in Europe and even Latin America, I'm not sure, but let's say many cities have been designed, if, if not with the idea of the 50 minute city, very similar to the concept. Let's, let's just, hypothetically, let's imagine that the cities are a 50 minute city already, how we solved all the issues.
What is the future for our different cities in our different continents, uh, in regard of our challenges and, uh, the, the, the, the real challenges for our cities, for the, the future, in the next decade at the horizon on 20 30, 20 40, 20 50, it's surviving to the global warming. This is today for our humanity. A big challenge for ensuring our habitability, eh, the situation today is, um, dramatic. The impact of the global warming in our cities today is totally visible in all continents.
In Europe, in North America, in South America, in, in Africa. We could observe in every day the terrible impact of the climate change. We have started in, uh, Latin America, a new cycle of El Nino. This, uh, combination of the global warming on the one hand, and the el on the other hand, will, will bring more and more difficulties for people that live in majority in cities. We need to change radically our German lifestyle if we wanted to survive at the end of this century as
civilization. This is the real question today, at the end of this century, in thousand, we'll continue to exist as civilization with this lifestyle sustainable. This is, the cities today around the world are all sustainable. We need today to our activities, activities in our cities. We need activities, neighborhood. We need to have more economic, social, uh, interactions for promoting, uh, at the same time, uh, a more friendly, uh, uh, C2 footprint.
This is the challenge for all cities and in Europe. Uh, we need to consider, uh, today that is necessary to, to switch towards, uh, this model. This was the idea of the measure of, and algo said in 19, it's not enough to fight against the climate change with the technical measures, the, the, the strategy key. Essentially, the role of cities in Ango said, we need to change our cities. And for that, it's not a question of the different infrastructures, but the different services, the proximity.
This is a key, plays a key role for this transformation. Paris is the, um, is the highest density in Europe, the sixth density in the world, but the city of Paris is the city in Europe with the more density of services, the commercial services, we have lot of services in all cities. The mayor, uh, is totally aware that the importance of the challenge on proximity is at the same time, the challenge for this resilient in faced with climate change in Latin America. This is not the case.
Carlos. Um, you have a background in technology, so I think it's proper that we talk a little bit about the concept of the smart city, unpacked a little bit. Why do you think this is important and what what is a human, smart city? Um, and I have developed this, uh, terminal, the human in smart city, um, when I have started my, um, turning point between the technological city, the smart city, towards a more livable city in 2000,
and I was one of the pioneers in the smart cities. I, um, uh, proposed in 2006, uh, after the emergence of internet, different techn technological solutions with the digital platforms for, um, managing the different infrastructures in cities, uh, imposed or traffic of cars in cities, uh, uh, different source of all, uh, mobility, uh,
for mix with, uh, public transportation. Uh, and, uh, in 2010, I said that, uh, this technological way called at this moment, smart city, um, reality, uh, was, uh, uh, a false, uh, idea. Uh, given that, uh, of course, so the internal revolution, the emergence of, uh, mobile devices, uh, the emergence of, uh, geo localization offers the new possibilities, uh, for
introducing technologies for different services. But at the same time, uh, I said at this moment that if we wanted to transform our cities, the center of gravity, uh, in reality should be, uh, people, the cities and dwellers, and not, uh, the technological, uh, breakthrough, the innovations. Uh, lot of, uh, companies, uh, believe at this point that with the technology, we, we will solve the, the problem as, uh,
including climate change and poverty. Uh, I prefer that this problem, uh, to introduce the term human smarting for considering that before the technical solutions, we need to examine the real condition of, uh, the citizen waters in the daily life. For Measur, our real capability for transforming for, uh, in 2010 in Barcelona, um, the city of Barcelona, uh, has started a congress, smart city, four World Congress, eh, and, uh, the, the first, uh, the first Congress, uh,
was in 2010. He was invited for, for that. And, um, uh, I explain that the smart city, why not because, uh, I, I am mathematician is a humanistic way for, uh, considering the socioeconomical ecological needs of citizen reps. And, and Carlos, in one of your previous talks, you mentioned how digital technology is ubiquitous. Um, you also said that, um, as a result of that, uh, we are facing hyperconnectivity challenges. Right?
Do you see the inception of this omnipresent, uh, digital technology in daily life as a transformation?
The question in factor, uh, is, um, my, uh, reflection on the role of technology in, in our daily, uh, lives after the emergence of internet, after, in, after the, in 2000, after the emergence of the mobile devices in 2005, uh, after the ance of social networks, uh, reality, you have observed the transformations of the behavior of, uh, people by the intensive users of, uh, the different, uh, technological, uh, things.
I said that, uh, for the first time in the history of, uh, humanity, each one of us, uh, the different citizen brother, uh, are massively, uh, hyper connected. This is the new era of the titanium's, uh, connectivity. And at the same time, for the first time in the history of humanity, we are massively social, disconnected. We have a lot of people, eh, totally disconnected, eh, of their friends, of their neighbors, et cetera. Eh, this, uh, this was one of the reasons for proposing this
James Jacobs concept. Uh, to live in a living city, we needed to consider the role of, uh, people in the public space to offer to teenagers, to children, the public spaces, uh, for transforming, uh, our neighbor, uh, relations for developing more livable streets, more livable, uh, neighborhood for developing social and economical interaction.
I, I am totally convinced that this is one of the most complex challenges for the next decades to transform this, uh, trend, to be more and more and more, uh, digitally isolated for creating a new generation of the digital citizens, first citizens after digital, the answer is to rediscover our humanity in our cities, to discover our streets, our, uh, our squares, our public spaces, to discover the public, the social interaction, to rediscover the local economies, the, the,
to discover our, our families, our neighborhood, to recreate the more, uh, humanistic challenges.