Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast Episode 111.
You have your lane, something that's been given you to run with, you've been blessed with something. Just start where you are, embrace what's around you.
You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, sharing information and stories of grass based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, Cal Hardage. You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating costs. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations.
The grazing management decisions you make today. impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenerative Grazing course to teach ranchers like you easy to follow techniques to quickly assess your forage production and infrastructure capacity. In order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts.
Learn more on their website at noble. org slash grazing. It's n o b l e dot org forward slash grazing.
On today's show we have Eli Mack of Mack Farms, and if you've been a longtime listener of the podcast, that name may be familiar to you. Eli joined me on a very early episode of the podcast, in fact, episode 5. If you've not listened to it, Go listen to it. Talks about his journey and what he's doing, and that would happen in November of 2020. So, here we are, three and a half years later, and I asked Eli to come back on and share about his journey since then.
One thing in particular, he was starting his holistic journey and some training there and what's gone on with that since that time. Also, we talk about his farm and how it's expanding and what he's doing there. It's a wonderful episode. Eli is always a wonderful guest, so I hope you enjoy it. And if you like this style where we reach back to some of our old guests and bring them on to update us about their progress, let me know.
We do have August Horstman on a future episode doing the same thing. It's been about three years since he's been on the podcast. So trying a little bit different to bring some of those guests back. I really appreciate Eli coming on episode 5. You know at that time we were, my downloads for a month, were very few. So I really appreciate him coming on and sharing. He's got lots of knowledge and I think you'll really enjoy it.
As we look ahead to next week, we have Steve Kenyon on and that's a really good episode and the following episode will be August Horstman 10 seconds about my farm. You've heard me speak about my accidental lambing season and we just sold those lambs. We did something different that we usually don't do. We weaned them. and directly sold them. It's the first time we've done that. Um, actually I was quite pleased with what we got and how it worked. Um, very low effort on our part.
I don't know if we'll do that again, but it worked out this time. So I was pleased with that. Uh, lambing season's going good. Currently we've got 90 lambs on the ground with a 140 percent lamb crop. I really was worried about that percentage is really lower in the season, in the, yeah, lambing season. It's barely been here, but we've got 90 lambs on the ground. Um, we had a lot of singles at first, but now we're getting a lot of twins.
One thing, we've been growing the flock, so we've been keeping all the ewe lambs. So we have a large percentage of ewe lambs that causes that number to be decreased. But lambing season is going good. We also grafted some pecan trees. We had OSU Extension out from, um, Mayes County. Mike Rose came out and helped us. And Tara from Craig County came over and we grafted a few pecan trees. We have done that in the past. I say we.
Very loosely, my dad has done it in the past, but it's been a couple decades and I think the last time we tried it didn't work very good. So we wanted to get someone out here to show us, make sure we were on the right path with that. So we were able to graft a few trees, so we're excited to see how that goes. It was a great, wonderful learning experience and I appreciate Mike and Tara coming out and helping us with that. Enough of that. Let's talk to Eli.
Eli, we want to welcome you back to the Grazing Grask podcast.
Thank you, Cal. I'm happy to be back with you. It's always a good time. I'm excited to talk about some stuff.
So Eli, you were on the podcast for episode five. I believe that was November of 2020. So it's been a few years. And just thought we would touch base with you, see what's happening with you, how things are going on your journey.
Yes, sir. I think you and I both commented because I went back and listened to the original episode to see. What all we covered and where we left off. And that way I could jump right in on the on ramp and you'll probably agree with me, but it's, rough hearing your own voice played back to you. I'm not a fan of that. I'm sure you're not a fan of that. I don't know anybody that is, but that's, it's always a rough time. But yeah, a lot.
There's a lot in that episode that kind of caught my attention. That's just different from where we are now, starting points versus how we've grown and some things that we've stepped more into and some things that we've stepped out of. So it's been quite the journey here.
At that time you were using 20 acres with cattle and sheep. And then I think you had poultry also.
Yeah. I think at that time I had some turkeys that I was running. And then I had some experimental pigs at this point, I've just honed in on the pastured animals, the cattle and the sheep I do poultry off and on, and I don't have pigs currently. I just made the context decision that's not where I fit right now.
Maybe one day I get back into it, but for now I'm just sticking with my pasture grazers out there being the Highland cattle and the sheep, there's a Couple oddball cows in the mix, but still using the same home base, home farm, 20 acres. And then I also purchased an additional 41 acres. That's adjacent to us across the road. It doesn't interlink with our farm, but I can get there if I have to walk. Yeah, I can get there on a four wheeler. I can take a truck or tractor. It's close in proximity.
So we're going to make it work,
Do you manage that Did you say 40 acres? And then 20 acres? Do you manage that all as one piece, so you're moving cattle and sheep from one property to another as needed?
right? Not yet. Just because that new property is landlocked. So we have to develop some hard roads for better access. And there's no good water source yet. It's a blank slate. So that's something we're hoping to address this year is get water established over there. So right now I'm just running a couple head of sheep and a couple head of goats. Just a small number that I can haul water over with the four wheeler, no big deal, check on them all the time.
But it would just be a little bit too much of a chore. Hauling water. Everything over there is uphill. Like it's a bowl, a bold hillside and hauling water, especially in the wintertime would be difficult. So for now, it's just sheep and goats until we make some changes.
And hauling water to sheep and goats is a lot different than hauling water to cattle.
It is, I can satisfy a couple of thirsty mouths with a five gallon bucket versus needing a whole water tote to keep the cows
Oh, yeah.
It's a big difference.
Now, do you already have a plan in place for how you're going to solve your water issue over there? Considering options?
yeah, I did dig into a couple different options, but I think for now we're planning to dig out a pond. Like I said it's a a hillside bowl. So there's like this huge funnel right in the middle where all this water is coming into this pond. And it's wet there all year round. It holds water there all year round. I had a crew out and they did some test digs with me just to look at the composition. And they said, everything looks good. It should hold water when we dig it out.
So that's what we're going to try to do. We're going to try to collect all that water coming down off the hillside. And I like that a little bit better than, you know, drilling wells and digging for water here and there because it's just a natural recycling of the water as opposed to extracting it. And also, I know at 1 point, the mine kind of went under that part of our neighborhood and a lot of the neighbors wells got messed up.
So I don't even know what you would get into trying to drill and get a well or hit a, made a water. It's a little bit of a gamble right now. I'm excited to just do. The water catchment with the pond. I think it should hold. I think it'll catch enough water and we'll be in business.
With that having a wet spot and of course you're talking about your slopes there. Sounds like a perfect location for a pond. Now you mentioned mines. What kind of, is it coal mines or what do you have?
Yeah, it's big coal mine country here. Big coal mine country here It's wound down over the past couple decades, but there's still some active mines going on, but it would all be coal business
How deep is your coal there?
That's a good question. I haven't been down there cow I that you know, if I get down there sometime i'll take my
Oh,
measure with me and i'll figure it out But I
You'll let me know.
I don't know, to be honest with you.
I know in our area of Oklahoma, we have a lot of coal mining going on here. Actually, it is winding down, but they dug, one of the properties I use was recently dug and reclaimed, so we're talking ten years ago. But it's all strip mining here, so it's surface access. And I think they have a shallow ribbon of coal about 30, 40 feet deep. And then they have another one, and I'm going to guess at this, at 70 feet.
And I think what happened, the area was dug and they harvested that shallow ribbon years, decades ago. like 50s, 60s, and then they came back and they dug that deeper one lately,
Gotcha.
or since 2000. At least that's my understanding, but to be honest, outside of driving over there and marveling at how big those tires are on the dump trucks, I'm a decent sized person at 6'4 and those tires make me look small.
You're six four Cal. I didn't know that. That's pretty tall.
Yeah, It's deceiving. I look a lot shorter on video and stuff. And to be honest, I always told everyone I'm 6'4 The doctor would probably say I'm 6'3 but I'm gonna stick with that 6'4 And this is a complete tangent, but I'm the runt in my family.
serious?
My dad is 6'6 My brother is 6'9 Now, I'm taller than my sister and mom, they're both only 5'9 so I, I'm taller than them, but, but my, we take, this is crazy, I take a picture, I ought to post a picture on one of the Instagrams maybe my farm account sometime, of my family, because you, when my dad, and my brothers in there, and my nephews, even my nieces, but especially with my nephews, my brother, And my dad in there, I look like a small guy.
It's just people would look at it and if they would think either I'm small or they're big and I'm just normal size. But people tell me I'm pretty good size and I'm trying to diet. So that's okay. One of those crazy things. So Anyway, enough on that tangent. So I think that's a great idea about, you've got a wet area, a great solution to getting water over there. And that, and water is always a limiting factor whenever we try to use any property.
First we ask about fencing, and then we're like, how are you getting water? Because water is the toughest one.
Yeah. Yes, it is. So that's what we went with. We're going with a pond plan. I think we'll be able to pull that off here this year. And that's been the, like you said, the biggest limiting factor for me, really leveraging the potential for that property, because right now it's just doing the bare minimum. And when you're doing small acreage grazing, you have to make use of most of the area that you get. And that's why I sprung on this property. Cause it's, I'm surrounded by big landowners.
Yes. all around our home farm. These guys do hundreds and hundreds of acres. So this little lot came up for sale and I grabbed it because I wasn't sure if I would ever get the opportunity to have a piece of land close to the home farm like that again, or if in the future, it might be somewhere that's 20 minutes away from the home farm and then that gets a little bit hard logistically. So this was my one shot maybe in my lifetime. I don't know, but I had to snag it.
right. Yeah, and I think that's excellent that you did in that area. Now, you have your cattle and your sheep and a few goats. Are you going to expand on those numbers so you can utilize all that? Is that the plan?
Yep. Yep. That 40 acres is hopefully going to stretch out our grazing season. I would like to use them all as one fluid unit. I will say that sorry, I lost my train of thought there for a second. I started going two different directions. But yeah, so the 40 acres will help me. Expand. And right now the home farm is pretty maxed out. I've got 31 head cattle of various ages and sizes. Plus we're lambing right now. We're at like 20 sheep, so imagine that on 20 acres,
Oh, yes.
that's. definitely more than your county average of one animal unit per acre, I've been really pushing the limits of the home farm and now we've exceeded it, but I haven't downsized because I know that property is just around the corner, We're almost
Oh, right.
If I were to go out and sell off a bunch to try to stay at capacity, then I'd be cutting myself short right when I'm about to expand, so I'm trying to hold on to everybody until we make that move. It's tough.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I think that's a good point. If you were to sell out the way prices are going right now, it'd cost so much to bring more in or something. It's great that you have that. But I do think that's good. You hold that together and then you're able to utilize that land as soon as you can. And it's so close, so I know you're eager to get that going so you can. Now, I believe you were direct marketing beef and lamb before. Have you continued down that path?
Yeah. It was more so on the beef and poultry side. Lamb was in the radar, but not quite there yet. So
Oh, okay.
now my flock is getting to the point where I could start looking at some lamb
Oh, okay.
I might go more the breeder route with the sheep. I haven't drummed up quite the market for lamb like I do with the beef products yet. Beef I'll still offer poultry. We'll still offer lamb might be more so on the breeder stock side. And I did actually bring in a second group of sheep over at that new property. And I got into a really nasty Parasite issue. And I lost a bunch of them.
And this is a debate and some people will love me for this stance and some people will hate it, but like we're a very hands off management. At Mac farms. And so I don't use any products as far as worms or anything like that goes. Like I want an animal that's going to do it on their own. So, you see that parasite issue evolving and you try to position them as best you can. But at the same time, I want to see who pulls through that. And then go with those genetics.
So it definitely whittled down the flock. Like I said, some people are going to hate that answer. They're going to, They're going to eat me alive, but other people would say that's natural selection doing its thing. So right now i've got a couple ewes from that group that are left and i'm And I want to observe them over the next year and a half and see how they do but that was going to be my big Sheep expansion then I got cut out at the knees there with the parasite load.
So Yeah, so I started to expand in that direction then had to press pause for a minute
Those parasites can really be an issue. We really struggled with parasites this year, and we have not struggled with them in the past. Occasionally we might have something, but our weaned lambs this year, I put them in a paddock that will hold them, and I grazed it too short. I knew I did. and then we, it was wetter in late summer than it's been for a few years and we had a wreck there.
And those things, if you're going to doctor them, which so what we try and do, we try and doctor them, but then they leave the farm. So we doctor them, get them wound, and they're gone. Because we do not want those genetics, but the, you have to be very proactive about that. One that you're like, oh, I better check that one. You better go check it right now. Or, it may be dead later and that sometimes is a problem with all the irons in the fire too. I get that and that's a tough thing.
With your highlands you've got those so you're able to graze them before, after, or with. Are you grazing them all together now? Granted the sheep you were talking about was on the other property, but your home flock, are you grazing those as a flerd, as Greg Judy likes to call it, or are they still separated?
Yeah, we are together. Now. We were separate there at the time we recorded that initial podcast. That was another thing that made me just tilt my head and say, wow I barely remember that. But yeah the cattle and the sheep all move together now. And that really got started it might have been that following winter where we were bell grazing just outside the barnyard. And that was the high dry spot and I needed to hold them up there for just a little bit longer.
And so I forced everybody into the same area and put up electric netting to really keep the containment so that the sheep weren't sneaking out on me. And it was during that time of bill grazing side by side, I think they both learned that they could tolerate each other and there's no big issue.
The sheep still like to go try to find their own corners of the paddock but otherwise they, they move with the cattle, they lamb in with the cattle without any issues, and we move all together as one, and that just makes things so much easier. You're minimizing how much fencing you're setting up, how much water you're moving around, and it's just really the way to go in my context, somebody else has a different context, that's
Oh, yeah.
I really enjoy having them together. It just makes things easier and it's a lot cooler, and you get to see those species interacting together every now and then I'll come out and there's a cow laying down and there's two lambs playing push around on top of it,
Oh, yes.
just funny stuff like that you wouldn't otherwise see.
I started a experiment last November, I took some newly weaned lambs, ewe lambs, and I say newly weaned, they were born in March, or in May, sorry, they were born in May. We don't wean our ewe lambs, so they, so when this opportunity came up, what happened was I weaned some heifer calves, I didn't plan on weaning at the time, and I thought, I've got these heifer calves weaned, I'm going to pull some of those ewe lambs in.
And that's weaning for them, a stressful time, with the goal of them bonding. And I've read a paper, I don't even know where I read it, but I read it about, for 8 weeks, 12 weeks, you hold them in a small pen, they bond together.
and then you can manage those as a group and those sheep will stay with those cattle and they provide predator control or more done that and I moved them up on one of the properties I had them in there and then winter got, we got some bad weather so I changed where I was feeding them and moved them all to another spot. They didn't bond very good. Now, I say that, they ended up a half mile away from where they were, and luckily it was on my dad's land.
I got them back in, but they, now they're staying where they're supposed to be right now, but I was optimistic I was going to get a better bonding there, and I do think they are bonding a little bit more now as I go out and unroll hay, Cows come over and eat, and sheep come over and eat, and I think that makes a difference. I had some goats in that pen as well. And the goats totally don't care about what anybody else is doing. They are, in fact, I'm not moving them or anything.
I have them, they're in some woods where I rotated them all through last year. And they are hanging out there till I start forcing them to do something else. And they'll come over. And grab a bite of hay if I feed close enough to the woods. Otherwise, they don't even come visit me. Which is, I don't know. I'm hoping this year to get them all within a couple strands of polywire, see how it goes. Are you using polywire or netting to move your flird?
Yeah, with the combined group there at the home farm, it's all braided twine. And I'll jump into that in just a second. On the other property, the newer property, it's all electric netting, just because it's a little bit more remote. I don't see it out the kitchen window, like I do the other ones. So I'm taking a little bit more precautions over there, trying to keep them out of the neighbors and stuff. They've done well in the electric netting. I haven't had any predator issues.
I just had somebody messaged me today. They're, asking about sheep. They're like, do you have dogs? What do you do to keep predators away? And I'm like, I don't know if I'm lucky. I don't know if it's the electric netting. I haven't had any issues over there, the home farm they're in with the cattle and there's enough human activity night and day that. Predators don't really come in there. At the home farm, I haven't gotten the sheep down to just like a single wire, like I would with the cattle,
Oh,
but honestly it's, irrelevant for me because I've started planting trees to create some silvopasture effect on all of my normal paddock divisions that I know I'm coming back to, and I really want to protect those trees while they're getting established. So I've put up like a semi permanent fence, but it's all with fiberglass posts and braided electric twine and four strands. And when that's hot, the sheep don't mess with it.
The cattle could really care less because, one strand's enough for them. But A lot of my routine now has revolved around four strands just because I want to make sure that they don't touch those trees while they're growing. And I do, I use the small Kiwi tech reels, like you'll see them in my Instagram videos sometimes. And when I'm doing small acreage, it's very tight paddocks, like small space, heavy impact. So I'm never unrolling more than 200 feet of twine at a time.
I could see where that would be annoying for somebody else, but for me, I can string four strands super quick and be done because we're doing very high concentrated areas. And with high con you would know this too. It's when you're putting higher pressure or greater area demands on. Animals, like you better make sure the fencing is up to the task. If you choose too small of an area, there's not enough to eat. They're pushing and shoving, somebody's going to go through the fence eventually.
So that's the other reason I'm doing like maximum security right now is because I'm trying to protect the trees, but also I'm pushing the limits of how small our paddock can be at this point in
yeah. Yeah. And with your trees, did you, I know Austin that was on the podcast 15 talking about silvopasture, he had some tree protectors that you planted a tree and they grew up through. Did you use any kind of tree protector or do you just have them planted out there?
Yeah, Austin has a great silvopasture business. If anybody, I would encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. It's a good one. Austin has a business that revolves around that. It's called Trees for Grazers, and it's all about establishing trees within working pastures, which can be a task, but they've made a pretty good formula for it. And yeah, they like to use the tree tubes or tree protectors.
He did hook me up with about 50 of them and I used them on some of the trees that were taken off the best. I really wanted to let them keep going, so I put those tubes around them. And those are good. Those are good. I would encourage everybody because that protects them from livestock. It also creates like a little mini greenhouse effect for them which can be helpful. I've also done a few things here and there.
If I have a, like the one paddock, I have this little ash tree that's just popping up on its own. It's a volunteer tree out in the middle of a paddock. So I've got my two rows. Of trees fenced off
Oh, yeah.
And then I got this lone tree that I would really like to keep. So I've actually used scraps of woven wire just to make a cage. And I hold that cage up off the ground with fiberglass posts so that it's insulated. It's not contacting the ground. And then I'll just run one single strand of polywire electric braid around that thing to electrify the cage. That way they don't rub on it. Cattle love to rub my Highland cows, especially with their horns and their shaggy hair, they really love to rub.
So it's not even always them munching. I'm more concerned about the sheep munching on my trees. But the cattle rubbing on them. So if I can eliminate both of those things, I'm doing good. I have been doing some experimenting too with no tree protectors, just fencing off, if you can picture this, so like a paddock is got two lanes, two, two edges to it, but then I'm actually fencing off another buffer outside that paddock. So maybe it's like a two foot width.
Of no man's land in between paddocks where I've been planting trees, but also I've just been letting what's coming up just come up like, whether it's, honeysuckle or whatever. And again, I have my 4 strands of electric on both sides of that to keep them out of there. And I've also found that's where a lot of the wild pollinator species want to pop up.
yes.
that's my hope there. It can be my tree nursery in these rows. And then also it can be promoting pollinator plants that don't get trampled and disturbed all the time by livestock. So I'm really trying to create the pollinator and hedge effect in between my paddocks to hold as much wildlife biodiversity as possible. On a small scale. I'm having fun with it. It's a cool experiment. I'm excited to see where it goes here in the next 10 years. See what comes of it.
I love the idea of a hedge fence, of something. I see those pastoral pictures of England or Scotland with their hedgerows, and I think, wouldn't it be cool to do something like that? And I haven't yet. Maybe someday I'll get to it. But that'll be interesting to see how that develops for you. Now, with your tree species, you went in and planted some. What tree species did you go with and why?
I did a lot of black locust. It's a nitrogen fixing tree. They're pretty tough when it comes to starting off. There's not a whole lot that disrupts black locust in our area, especially like something that was stripped. And then left go to regrow a lot of times. You'll see black locust popping up there just because it is. It's 1 of those 1st species. That's yeah, we're going to take this back over. And it's really high in tannins. It's a good natural parasite fodder for animals.
So I'm looking forward
Oh, yes.
some black locusts, especially to the sheep. And so I did a lot of black locusts. Those are doing well. Those are probably the tallest and best trees I have right now. I've also done hybrid poplars and hybrid willows. They're going to be very quick establishing. You can, they throw a nice shade. You can also use them for fodder. They might not be as long lived as some of the other species you might plant.
But if you keep pruning them either by coppicing or pollarding, cutting them down at the base or cutting them above browse height and letting them re sprout, that can really extend their life. I also have a lot of wet bottomland, wet soils and wet bottomlands. I have some swampy areas.
Oh, yes.
And some of those areas, honestly, I'm not even looking to graze as much in the future, but use that spot for wet nursery for things like black willow and sycamore and maybe some like red osier dogwood and arrowwood and things that I already have growing on the farm. Maybe take some live steaks, stick them in there, and I can start propagating my own stuff, To stick elsewhere.
And anytime I have a tree that comes down that's a nut bearing tree, I gather up all those nuts and I go chuck them in those hedgerows in between my paddocks just to even if 2 percent of them grew into a tree, that would be amazing. Yeah, last year we did that.
My, my wife and I, there was a shag, shag bark hickory that came down and it was loaded and we gathered them all up and then we just ran around the farm, just chucking them everywhere, trying to find places where they would have a head start to start growing before the animals started messing with them. I've also been doing elderberries, sticking elderberry live stakes in those rows
Oh, okay.
Really anything, I'm not opposed to it. I think the more diversity you have, the more resilient you are. This year I'm hoping to incorporate more fruit trees for human use, and I'd like to dabble with pawpaws because pawpaws are like the most tropical kind of fruit that we can grow in this northern climate. They're a unique tree, a unique fruit, and I would like to, I'd like to get into that. And I'm saying that having never even eaten a pawpaw.
I'm just going on faith on that one, but you know, diversity is the key.
Even if you get those growing and you don't eat them, something else will.
Absolutely.
exciting to see how that
tough spot, yep. And if you get in a tough spot, you can always go hack some of those branches, feed the leaves to the cows. You can go collect those fruits, dump them in, it just makes you all the more resilient and you have so many more options when you have. Diversity and a lot of life just popping out of your land. It's the best case scenario.
Oh, yes. Yeah. One more statement about your cattle. We moved away from your cattle and talked about your trees this little bit, but one more statement about your cattle before we, we adjust just a little bit. You take wonderful pictures on Instagram. I see some of those pictures and I'm like, This should be a canvas you can order. Um, I think your bull drinking out of a watering trough and some other pitchers.
I'm always excited to see what you post Eli because I think you do a good job, but then some of those pictures are just excellent quality and I haven't showed them to my wife because she'd be like, yeah, I want a picture of that. Or my daughter would. Any plans to monetize that? Because that may be a revenue stream for you.
Yeah. Yeah. I, it's funny. A lot of people comment on that. I make no claims to be a photographer. I'm not a photographer. I have a smartphone with a decent camera and occasionally I find myself in the right place at the right time. And I like those moments of the farm and you capture them and other people can appreciate the farm too, even though they're not there and we just had conversations this week of getting a website going more so to offer the services like consulting.
And things like that. And the coaching aspect of what we do. But it's also in discussions that we could do some prints of some of those photos so that people could have those unique pieces from the farm and put them in their house or whatever they want to do.
And just enjoy them as much as we do, because that's, we get to see that stuff every day, and that's quite the blessing, and if we can pass that on to some folks, and if we can, like you said, monetize that a little bit for ourselves, that'd be a little bit extra of a trickle coming into the bucket. Yeah. We would like to do that.
I know for my parents, and I'm even less of a photographer or claim to be one than you claim to be one. I'm terrible. But I have taken a few pictures that I printed off for my parents on canvas for them to hang in their house of our own cattle, which is really. Really nice just as an individual rather than having who knows what up there. I've got pictures of our own animals and I really like that. And that's just a side bonus that we get to do.
One thing you mentioned there was about consulting and helping with that. When we talked to you three and a half years ago, you were starting on your holistic journey. I don't remember exactly where you were in it, but you were fairly early in that journey. Can you tell us about that journey, how it's gone, and what you did?
Yeah, absolutely. Early on in this whole grazing journey, I knew I wanted to try to do it naturally and stick within those guidelines. And I wanted to, manage in a way that I wasn't cutting corners and I could be sure that I was making the right decisions in a way that was going to affect the landscape positively and not negatively. And, these are things I want to pass on to next generations, like planting trees, that's a generational thing.
These aren't just decisions that we make on a daily basis on a whim. Like we need to have some kind of framework for making these decisions. I came across holistic management through the Savory Institute. And that's basically, in a nutshell, holistic management is a decision making framework to help you deal with the complexity of natural systems. And it has a lot to do with grazing and introducing animal into the landscape.
And so I started digging into this and I was going through savory institutes resources. I read their book. I did some of the online courses that really break it down and they start talking about, you Water cycle and mineral cycle and community dynamics and diversity.
Like we're talking about and all those things that play into how you look at an ecosystem, whether it's your backyard or a 20 acre farm or a thousand acre ranch, like there are ecosystem ecosystems and there's little micro ecosystems and. All of these variables are playing into that.
And when we're managing, we're out there doing our thing, making decisions about how we do something versus doing it this way, we're doing and seeing results that maybe we intended for, but probably also causing results that we didn't intend for worse or for better.
And so holistic management is really, is Why is what I jumped into because I wanted to know that as I'm managing as I'm making decisions moving forward I can also keep an eye on the unintended things so that I'm not Doing anything detrimental to the landscape. I want to make this landscape abundant. I want to make it last I don't want to detract from it. I really want to Put myself into it. I don't want to take from the landscape for me.
I'd really like to put myself into the landscape and holistic management allowed me to do that. The journey through that, like I said, read the book, did the online courses, and then I became an AP and accredited professional through Savory Institute. And I worked with my mentor, Daniel Griffith down in down in Virginia. They run Timshel Wildland. He's a great guy.
He has a lot of philosophy around the topics of grazing and wildlife and wild systems and holistic management and everything in between. He's a really interesting guy. He's wrote some books. He was on your podcast. Daniel has a
Yeah, Episode 17, I just looked that up to remember.
But yeah, Daniel is a wealth of knowledge and just a lot of different perspectives that you can gain from him and listening to what he has to say. He asked questions that nobody else is willing to ask. And and then even dabbles in answering them, which is sometimes, sometimes you have people that like to ask questions, but they don't really want to throw out their answer. And he. He does both sometimes, which is good. So I leaned heavily on him and he brought me through my savory journey.
And now I'm out the other side as an accredited professional where I can teach the principles of holistic management. I can help people. Hopefully I can help people better understand their own landscape and understand their own context for managing that landscape in a way that creates the quality of life that they want to see that is hand in hand with the landscape that they're trying to create. Holistic management is a beautiful thing that helps us. Manage the complexity that's in front of us.
When we look at a natural landscape,
Now, when you Consider holistic management. You've got the Savory Institute and you've got, is it Holistic Management International? And I'm not sure if you can speak to it. What's the difference between the two?
I haven't dabbled in the other. I've only really been within the realms of the Savory Institute. So I probably shouldn't say, because I would just be guessing and lying to somebody. I don't know the difference between, but I know Allen Savory has been working in the holistic management space for decades and decades. This is not.
New stuff, like back in the sixties, people were getting excited about this, of course, some of the literature has been revised and now we have different names for some of those concepts and. and. things like that. But the idea of viewing things holistically hasn't changed. It's, when we look at our world, there's nothing we can point at and single it out and say, it's not attached to something else, or it doesn't affect something else. Even within your own family, like everything in life is.
And we really see that when we look at, when we look at nature, it's like pulling on the cobweb and one strand of the cobweb and then you see the whole thing shudder in the sunshine. That's how connected and integrated everything is. Those are the principles that they've been working with for decades at the Savory Institute. So quite acquainted in there.
They're the pros and that's why I wanted to get with them because they know what they're talking about when it comes to holism and holistic management.
Oh, yeah. And I don't know the difference between the two. I've thought I'd need to check into either or because I've read some of the Holistic Management I can't even think the full title of the book, but the Holistic Management book. As you think about someone who's just saying, Oh, I should find out more information about this. Where would you suggest them go
Yeah, I would send them to Savory website. They have a map laid out of and a list of all the APs at least, but then they also have a map of the hubs. Hubs are a a regional center for holistic management. And some of those training courses like Daniel would be a hub down in Virginia with Robinia Institute. That's their hub name. So a lot of that stuff is regional.
Sometimes there's gaps between regions, but some of those hub leaders are willing to reach across those gaps and get people the training and education that they need. So save your website would be good. Otherwise most of us are out there floating around on Instagram, if you know what you're looking for. Or at least in the ballpark, we're all posting about what we're doing. And we're pretty active on social media and I forgot to mention to the ecological monitoring cow, the EOV is another aspect.
I don't know if you want to talk about that now or later or whatever you want to do. I'll leave that to you to decide
we can go ahead and go into that if you're finished with about the hubs and stuff We can talk about the EOV.
sure. EOV is a service that a lot of hubs offer, not all hubs, but a lot of hubs offer EOV, which is ecological outcome verification. Which is the whole data collecting, scientific, technical side of regeneration. We all like to make claims in our Instagram posts about, we're a regenerative farm, we do this, that, and the other. But how do you really know? Like, How do you know if you're regenerating? How do you know if you're moving forward on the landscape?
There might be things you're looking at that tell you that. There might be some other things that you're not paying attention to that tell a different story. So EOV is a service where we can roll out onto a farm, onto a ranch. We can do some short term monitoring. We can do some long term monitoring. Really in depth stuff where you're like on your hands and knees, nose to the grass, like pulling grasses apart, looking for certain things everything from diversity to.
Water cycle, to water infiltration, to species identification, wildlife, and bugs, and insects, and manure decomposition, and all these things. All the complexity has a place on the rubric. We use a rubric, we use a scorecard that is customized to an ecoregion. It's not just across the board, United States that would be wrong. That would do nobody any good. It's all based on ecoregion. To where we can score your farm accurately based on your eco region and give you feedback on that.
So you can actually get a score on. Your mineral cycle oh man, we're not breaking down our organic matter. What's up with that? And then we can have conversations about how we can go about those things. So EOV is a service that gives you all that information, just spit out at you. And you can pinpoint, this is where we're at on the scale of regeneration. And from year to year, we monitor that and you can say, okay, we're moving forward. We're moving forward. Or. You know what?
I was really lazy in my management last year and it shows in the score. It's it's kind of accountability. How do you know you're regenerating if you don't ever ask the question, if you don't ever collect the data? You won't. We're all just making claims and if you want to make those claims then we should have a way to measure that. So it is the measuring tape for regeneration.
Is there a certain time of year that you go in and do the EOV or can it be done year round and The what you find is adjusted for the season.
So we like to do it during the growing season.
Oh,
That can be any time during the grazing season or the growing season. And I would say when you come out for the base year, you're what do you call it? Baseline. You're setting up your baseline year.
Oh,
Whatever time of year you're out there, you should probably come back the same time. The next year and the year after keep everything as consistent as possible. During the growing season, that's great for the identification part because things are in full expression. Sometimes we get somewhere and the paddock or the pastures that we're trying to monitor have just been grazed and everything's just like a green stub and you're like, okay, identification is going to be really tricky here.
Yeah
you just have to work with that. Or you make a note like, Hey, this paddock was just grazed. So keep that in mind with the scores. Cause maybe there's not as much to look at. And the funny thing, Cal, is when I'm out and about in my own paddock or I'm visiting a farm, once you've done EOV, cause it is a lot of work. Like it's pretty labor intensive. You're sweating, You're covered in bugs. Like it's a good time, but it's a bad time. You know what I mean?
right.
And when you're out there and you roll onto a farm that has like a lush, diverse paddock that you have to monitor, you're almost Oh, okay. This is going to
Oh,
This is going to be a minute, and then sometimes you roll onto a farm where it's like pretty sparse and it's hurting and you're like, okay, yeah, we can knock this out. And now here we go, and once you have a gauge for that and the work that you're doing that's how I test myself as I'm walking around my farm. Like, all right, let's look at this paddock. Would this paddock difficult to do EOV on? Would it be a pain in the
Oh, yeah.
Or could I knock this out quickly? And for me, sometimes that's all the more of a question I need to ask. You'd be like, yeah, this paddock could use some work. Cause I think I could make a long term site here and mark all the data pretty quickly. Or other paddocks where I'm like, Ooh, I don't want to do EOVO here. Cause this would take forever.
Yeah.
and so when you're engrossed in that data collection, it's funny to just look around and you get your vision for those kinds of things. And you can look around and say, yeah this paddock just by the feel of it is doing pretty good or the contrary, but it's just one of those things. The more you get tuned into it, the more you can see it everywhere you go.
Oh, yeah. I think having a rubric and qualifying that what you're seeing out there can be really beneficial. The other aspect you mentioned was year after year. You can see. What kind of trend you're going, what kind, where you're headed, I think those points in time, it's so important we take a time, take time to go back and look. For example, your podcast from three and a half years ago. Granted, I, I listened to it, actually I read the transcript.
I read your portion so I knew where it went, but then I'm looking at my portion thinking, Oh dear. And the podcast has really evolved and it's really nice to go back and see that and say, Oh, we have evolved. Maybe part of the time I do have a coherent sentence. So it's good to go back and see that you've got some growth. So that EOV, doing it over time, I could see a lot of benefit from that.
Absolutely. Even like your podcast example, I listened back to it as well, just to know where we left off and I was oh, man I really didn't know anything back then. I feel like I don't know anything now. So I really didn't know what I was doing back then. Yeah. So we need a report card every now and then, and we need to know if we're moving the dial on that stuff.
It's very important to keep checking up on ourselves and a lot of people, I think this applies through multiple layers of life, but sometimes people are hesitant to start monitoring, whether it's EOV or theirself or their progress, because they feel like that initial report card is not going to be good. And we always tell people like, Hey, baseline year is a great year to suck. If I could say it bluntly,
Oh yeah,
because. then guess what? Next year's scores are going to be all that much better. Don't wait to get the landscape of your farm, the landscape of your mind, the landscape of your skills, your landscape of your career. Don't wait to get all the pieces in place now. Don't, before you start electing that data, before you start comparing yourself and giving yourself progress reports, like just start now, just create a baseline. It doesn't matter how bad it is. Like we're only going to.
We're only going to improve unless you're not managing well. Maybe we move backwards, but yeah, don't be afraid to start. Cause that's no reason to hold back.
But if you do move backwards, you've got some data there that you can work off of and figure out what you should be doing. Just this podcast so many times in Advice to New Farmers, we talk about this. You've got to get started. You've got to take that first step to get anywhere. I started this podcast and I'm not saying I know how to do anything now, But I really didn't know how to do it then. And, but if I'd waited till I was ready. I'd probably still be waiting.
I'd probably still be trying to figure it out.
Yeah,
There's a lot of benefit to reading, to resources, getting, gathering all this knowledge, but we don't want to get into that analysis paralysis, stealing a real estate term where we're so knowledgeable and trying to figure it out, but we're afraid to take that first step. The real learning occurs after you get started. And that would, I would render a guess. That's.
The EOV, once you get started, that's going to be so much more beneficial for you and you're going to learn so much than if you're trying to learn everything ahead of time and try and get everything in place.
absolutely.
All that to say, get started.
Yeah. Get started. I have quite a few areas in my life, even this year, where I'm like, dude, just start, like you'll keep getting stuck in preparation. Just get started. Just start pushing the cart.
Oh yeah,
And that first step is oftentimes the hardest, but if you can push through that momentum takes over. Yeah.
right I think, I went to the Noble Research Institute's Essentials of Regenerative Grazing, and one thing they said that I thought was really good, That kind of relates to this getting started. If we get started, for grazing, we're doing daily moves, for example, or, adaptive you're doing moves based upon what you need. But if you think about a daily move and you move them and you've got your animals in there too tight and they're, you come back later and they're out of grass, guess what?
Change it next time. You've got that feedback, give them a bigger area. And conversely, if they're, if you're like, Oh, they didn't graze this like I thought they should have, Reflect upon it. Reflection is such an important part. And then tighten that rotation up just a little bit. Most of the time that first step is not gonna hurt anything. We just gotta take it.
Yeah, that's very true. And I think oftentimes we elevate our position as managers, whether of landscape or livestock. Really, I like to let my animals do the teaching. I'm the student we're observing, we're seeing what's going on. I like that. I like to let them do the work too. Don't get me wrong. They're the teachers and the workers. I'm the student but just even recently, we're winter time here in Pennsylvania. We're maxing out the home farm. So we are bell grazing, we're feeding hay.
And I just got bored with how we were doing it. I wanted to switch it up. I wanted to try some stuff. And so we've done a couple of different methods and patterns and guess what? You learn things when that happens. And I was even thinking of this comment earlier and Daniel taught me this phrase and it's a holistic management theme where disturbance creates emergence of some kind. So whether this is the soil surface, we disturb it to a certain depth and it emerges somehow.
And we determine, good, bad or indifferent or whatever. The same with our routines and our schedules. If you create a disturbance, if you shake things up, that allows room for different results to happen. So here I am, I'm bale grazing. I'm bored with how we always do it. I'm like, we're going to try something else, and it's been really fun.
It's been really fun just to let the cows teach me things like I was doing a really tight paddock the other day and I'm doing kind of a, I've never done this before. Usually I roll out all the hay for the paddock and they have that hay until we hit that mark where, I said, okay, the hay should be spent by now and we move on to the next one.
Oh,
Right now we're using about one round bale per day. So we're on a really tight paddock and I'm doing a, I, people call it different things. I call it a winter windrow where I unroll the hay and then I run a single strand of electric over top of it and they eat from underneath it. Because we're into some wet weather here. And if I roll out all the hay in the paddock, they end up trampling a large portion, which I'm fine with. I'm okay with that.
When it's wet, we get a lot of dimpling and I was trying to mix it up. And so this way, they really flatten and compact the area that they're standing on for the day because they're all standing in this row. And they're leaving the hay
Oh, yes.
And the next day, that's the row they're all standing on and they're working it in evenly. So instead of all these random craters, we're actually getting a pretty nicely laid hay
Oh, interesting.
And. Come this growing season. I'll tell you if that was good or bad, we'll find out but coming out and the same three cows are like over the fence eating hay from the other side and This is my pride in the situation. I'm like, ah Those darn three cows, like those are the troublemakers, like what's going on. And I kept putting them back in and, after three days, it's the same characters. And I'm like, all right, what's going on. And then I was like, yeah, you dummy.
Like those cows are trying to tell you something and you're not listening. Cause you're taking yourself too seriously. Those three cows, weren't the troublemakers. Those three cows are at the bottom of the totem pole getting pushed around to the point where they go through or under or over the wire, just because everybody else is bossing them around. And so then. Okay, you made an observation. You learned something because you disturbed your original rhythm.
Now there's an emergence for a learning opportunity. And I probably should have pieced that together on day one, but I didn't, I was just being dumb about it. So then I'm able to collect data on this situation. I said, okay, let's look at the length of this paddock. This paddock is 25 paces. So it's roughly, 75 feet for my cattle. 31 head. That's not enough room. And then that led me to, okay let's measure the horns on some of these Highlands.
The average was like 40 inches, which I didn't realize I would have guessed like
Oh, yeah.
We're closing in on four feet of horns. That takes up a lot of space when you're side by side. So I'm like, okay, I switched up my routine. A learning opportunity emerged. I observed it, I collected data, and now I can go back to the drawing board and we can have some more fun with this. And that's the beauty, it's the beauty, it's the fun, it's the enjoyment of grazing and doing what we do. I really love it.
But that's just an example that I've had recently of, Learning and collecting the data and starting over and mixing things up. That's okay.
Yeah, and that's a wonderful observation you made with that, and then you adjusted your practice, so. Maybe those cows aren't getting bullied into the next paddock, so it works out good. Eli, it's about the time, and I didn't warn you earlier. Of course, this is our second try at it, so maybe you did get a warning. But, you have to answer the Famous Four questions. I know you answered them before, but let's see where you've gone with that now.
But before we get there, is there anything else you'd like to add before we transition to the Famous Four?
Oh I don't know, Cal. I think we're okay. I think we can go to the famous four. Last time I got ahead of myself. So I'll wait to the questions.
Oh, okay. There we go. Okay.
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same four questions we ask of all of our guests. And our very first question, what is your favorite grazing grass related book or resource?
I read a while ago, I read Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold. It's a classic among people that are farmers, ranchers, conservationists, wildlife people alike. It is a fantastic book. It's a go back to kind of book. Even when I read it, I see principles of holistic management in there. It's like these are proven principles that whether you call it holistic management or you just call it life, like they're there. So I really enjoy his work in that book.
Holistic management the handbook, the workbook, both of them are great resources for people doing what we do. I think I was telling you earlier that I'm really stuck on trees, as you can tell by my tangent earlier in this episode. So I've been reading some tree books and I'm currently chipping through tree crops by Smith, J. Russell Smith, I believe is who it is. And Austin probably would have referenced that as his book in his episode. I'm
I think he did because I purchased that book based upon his recommendation. It was really interesting, but it's a really old read. It's what, 30s or 40s, maybe 50s. I'm not sure. It may be earlier than that.
It's been around a minute. And then we mentioned Daniel Griffith down in Virginia. He's my mentor. He's written two books. One of them is wild like flowers. The other one is dark cloud country. And he's working on a third that they're working on getting published right now. And he does some great work that will challenge your concepts and your philosophy of management and grazing and farming and all those things. And he's, Not as much a pragmatic kind of guy, he likes to challenge thoughts.
So those are good books to really take your mind for a jog.
Oh, very good. Excellent selections there. I say that there's a fair number in there that I haven't read. I haven't read Daniel's second book, and I haven't read those Sand County Almanacs, except I really hate to admit that because those have been brought up a number of times on the podcast and I've yet to read them, so maybe 2024 is the year.
There you go. Cross them off.
Our second question, what is your favorite tool for the farm?
I think the first episode I said my Leatherman, I think that was on the list. And it still is. I wear my Leatherman on my hip every day. I have a specific model now. It's the OHT because everything's accessible from the outside and the pliers are Like a switchblade, like I don't have to use my
yes.
I think that's great. I love my Leatherman tool, the OHT. And I would add to that list, I got my cattle dog Quigley. He's great for rounding up livestock when something chaotic happens. And Probably irreplaceable on the farm right now is my gas powered water pump because we pump water from the creek and from the pond. We don't have any buried water lines or pressure with well, water or anything like that. So moving water is very important.
And to even to the extent where I've snatched up what 2 more of these 2 inch outlet gas powered water pumps so that I can really set them up strategically around the farm. That's been huge. So I know you're asking me for one item, but I got a list recently and I always have my phone on me in the paddock, but I've really enjoyed just a small pocket notebook where like I can take
Oh yes.
and observations. This just feels so much more personal to me. Like I keep my birthing records in here and then I move them to my phone. But this is also a great backup for when something gets deleted off my phone accidentally, which does happen often. But I enjoy carrying this with me cause I can make little scratch notes and little ideas like when I was talking about switching things up with Bill grazing.
I was actually like sketching them out in here, out in the paddock before I wrote out my plan for them. So that's been the, just the past couple of weeks, a little pocket notebook. I'm really enjoying that.
I love the idea of a pocket notebook and I go through phases. I'll carry one for a while and then I get out of the habit and then something will remind me. I'll be like, oh yeah, I like that. So then I'll do it, all the time trying to figure out what works best for me And
Yup. And it'll be different. For everybody. I'm not much of a typing and tapping on a screen guy. I'd much rather put pen to paper, but that's not for everybody. So I get that.
Oh yeah. One thing about your gas powered water pumps. Being in Pennsylvania, you have a little bit more winter weather than I do. Do you utilize those year round or are you just using those during your main growing season where you don't have to worry about cold weather?
Yeah, I use them year round. I don't let the cattle go into any of their water sources. We're protecting the stream banks and fencing those off, creating some wild riparian areas. Same thing with the pond. We have a nice buffer around it. So we use them through the winter and When it's mildly cold, I just drain all the hoses back out, drain the pump, and I can let it sit there outside with just a hood over it.
If it's going to get really cold, I'll drain all the hoses just stay put on the ground, and I'll bring the water pump inside. Either carry it, which is sometimes a chore, and sometimes I have my four wheeler right there, and I'll just bug it back to the house. But that's been great.
Honestly, I use the two inch lay flat hose and sometimes if you drain it, it's not really going to freeze every now and then the middle will freeze shut like a pinch, but as soon as there's any kind of pressure buildup, once the pump kicks in, it just blows that out. And worked really well. If you drain the hoses, you don't get into any issues. You just have to remember to drain the pump as well so that it doesn't crack anything or get froze up.
And at that point, if I do forget, I'll take out a heat gun or like a weed burner or something, just give it a quick go over and loosen things up. And then we're back in business.
oh yes. And what kind of watering trough are you using for your cattle and sheep?
I have Rubbermaid hundred gallons, and I also have one of the metal county line. Like your tractor supply
Oh yeah
I hate that thing. I hate it. I will tell you, I will give an honest review. Because the walls are straight. Like it's a cylinder. It's cylindrical. So if you ever have to dump it out when it's somewhat full, it's quite the chore. I actually blew out my knee trying to do that this year. Whereas The rubber made ones are staggered. They're they get wider at the top near the bottom. So they're easier to get leverage on them to tip them. And I love that.
And I'm also not a fan of having metal water troughs up against electric fences, because if anything happens, now you're making contact on your water trough. They're getting freaked out by the water. So I just like to eliminate that altogether. I will say I'm working on finding the best method for mending cracked Rubbermaid troughs. And this could be a great question across the community. Cause I'm sure people have good hacks for it. I found a couple that worked for me.
I think what happens is when we drink that water down in the wintertime, And the water settles towards the base and it freezes when it's at a low height in the trough, it expands that bottom and it pops the seam
oh yeah,
because it's in the same place every time. So I'm working on correcting that. And then at Ken Cove, they recently started stocking Balin country stock tanks water trough, similar to a Rubbermaid, a little bit different, I'd to test some of those out this year and see which one I like more.
oh yeah, very good. And moving on to our Third question after a little bit of a tangent there. What would you tell someone just getting started?
This is a good question. I think I would say just to not play the comparison game. It exists in any field, career, business, industry, Personal, especially on social media. My goodness, the comparison game on social media is a beast. And if you don't guard yourself against that, you will become a victim of it. So don't start now. Don't start ever. Don't compare yourself to what other people have going on. I have to remind myself of that all the time. Because everyone's context is different.
Like everything I'm talking about here in this episode is very specific to my context, whether you think it's small potatoes or you think it's 10 times bigger than you will ever be. It's specific context. So don't get sucked into somebody else's context. You have your lane, something that's been given you to run with, you've been blessed with something. Just start where you are, embrace what's around you.
Even if it's untraditional or not the orthodox way that people in this space are going about it, and just embrace what you have and start, appreciate your own context and find a way to make that your thing. And if you do that, you will have a very specific, Niche in this niche, if that makes sense. Cause everybody can go out there and try the template stuff. That's all fine and dandy, but we're all too different and created differently to fall into that game.
We need the unique perspective that everybody has coming from their own context. Don't compare yourself. Don't try to copycat. Be creative. Find your ways to embrace your context and live it out.
Excellent advice and that is so hard not to look on social media or wherever and compare Excellent advice. Yeah, and lastly Eli, how can others find out more about you?
Instagram is probably where I'm the most active and most accessible at the moment. Instagram is Mac Farms, M A C K, Farms, and we post a lot there. I've been posting a lot more now than I have been the past couple of months, just cause there's a lot happening. So Instagram is pretty active. We are going to be pursuing a website here pretty soon. And even when that happens, I'll be posting about that on Instagram too. So Instagram is probably the best place to keep up with all the happenings.
Very good Eli I appreciate you jumping back on here and Revisiting this after a few years
Hey, my pleasure, Cal. Thank you for having me back. Appreciate it.
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