When Empathy Becomes Toxic | Allie Beth Stuckey

but primarily my mom. And I think a lot of people would say that just because you spend the most time with your mom growing up and seeing her example of every single morning having her journal and her coffee and her Bible out, how she diligently prayed with me, how she how she's sang hymns with me every night, and we were just very close and had that connection.

And I just followed her example in loving scripture and loving worship more than the Christian school kindergarten through twelfth grade, more than the Ijuanas, more than the Southern Baptist tradition of going to church on Wednesdays and Sunday mornings and Sunday nights, which were all beautiful and all blessings. Like I credit just the example in the diligence of my parents in discipleship. And also my grandmother lived with me until I was thirteen. We were very close and also

her example. Both of my grandmother and my mom were both teachers by trade for a while before I was born, and they used that gift that God gave them to really disciple my brothers and me, but a lot of me because my brothers are a lot older than me. So anyway, I was just the beneficiary of a lot of good teaching. But it wasn't really until high school that I started taking my faith seriously and personally digging

into apologetics and theology. That's when I started considering if I was what is typically referred to as reformed, although I wouldn't have necessarily called myself that reading C. S. Lewis and Tim Keller and John Piper, Matt Chandler at the time. This was all probably junior in high school, and I actually started going to another church independent of my parents that was maybe a little bit more in

that direction. My friend gifted me with an ESV Study Bible when I was a freshman in college, which totally shaped my theology and still does to this day. And I would say I kind of marched steadily towards that

like reformed camp, and that really shaped my theology. And so that means a lot of exa Jesus, a lot of theology, a lot of Bible, and I had been somewhat raised with a little bit of a prosperity tinge, I would say, to some of my theology, or at least there was an acceptance of the Jolo Stein theology a bit. And so when I dug into biblical theology and expository preaching, it was like a whole new intellectual

world for me. And so when my husband and I got married, because shared that love, shared that passion, and we knew that we wanted expository preaching when we selected a church. Now, we're Baptists, and we're both Southern Baptists, and so that's not typically like in the Reformed camp. That's typically Presbyterian, and we don't have to get into the nitty gritty of everything that means. But that's primarily

what we were looking for. We were looking for a church that teaches exogetically and that sticks to the word, and that isn't going to compromise when everyone else is compromising. Twenty twenty was a big test for everyone, and I was very thankful that my church stayed open, that my church stood firm, that my church has been clear. And also another thing for us is that it would be easy to get involved. There are solid churches, big churches

that are great, but they're hard to get involved in. Like, we went to a church when we were just married that we tried to join a small group. You couldn't even join a small group anytime you wanted. It was every six months and only if there was an opening, and so like, what were you supposed to do? Just wait in the pews until someone maybe came up to you and I don't know, welcomed you in, but if not,

you're just kind of going to be stranded. The church that we're in now, it was so easy to get plugged in, to go to a Sunday school class and to find you know, those people and those opportunities to serve. And so those are the two of the things that we were looking for.

of ranch hands for the amount of cattle. And usually we don't see churches that way. You you have a megachurch and just not enough leadership. That's why people get lost. That's why people aren't responding. You can't get into a small group or whatever. So in that aspect, it's wiser to be in a church that's that's the right size proportionally to its eldership. I don't I honestly, sitting here right now, I don't know the church that you go to, but I probably know them if we talked offline, I'm

sure I know them. Because it's, uh, that's exactly what I would want my family to experience in church, and that's what I want any of my listeners to know about church, because I have so many people I'm sure you too, so many people go. You know what, I don't need church. I find God in the woods. I love hunting, and that's where I really experience God. And the idea of being involved in a local body serving a local body, being served by a local body is rare.

And then to see you on your platform be involved and be in the nursery is It's incredible. It's an incredible blessing.

the ambition that exists there. And I think like the cheat code outside of just the grace of God and the protection of God that has nothing to do with my own efforts. But in addition to that, like the cheat code to avoiding that craziness, the gossip, the backstabbing, the betrayal that even exists in like smaller conservative media, because all that exists, the corruption, the I mean, there's

just craziness that goes on behind the scenes. There is living a normal life and having a normal family, not only having like a normal loving marriage, where you spend a ton of time together. You travel together. You're not like traveling off by yourself all the time, but you're together with your family. The closer you can be to real everyday people who know you, who know your life, who can speak into your life, who can say you're off on that you're going too far in that direction.

You need to say no to that that's not good to you, or that's not good for you, or whatever it is, or encourage you like on the other end, like yes, you are doing great at whatever it is. The more that you can be plugged into your church, the more that you can try as much as you can to just maintain normal friendships people who don't have any kind of platform like that is the cheat code. That is how you stay honest and normal and saying.

People ask me all the time, how do you talk about like the news and all of this sad stuff without getting just sad and stressed and spit And it's because I have. It's because of my life, it's because

of my family, it's because of my marriage. In addition, of course, to the grace of God, it's because of all of the normalcy and stability that I have that I think is what charges me and gives me the ability to talk about the chaos that's going on in the world because I have a respite in my everyday life. So that's advice that I would give to anyone.

And yeah, so he's great and I always trust to and I always will hear him out, but he will definitely be like, you know, I think that you should have talked to that person privately before you brought that up on the show. And I'm like, uh, I think that you're right. I shouldn't have because or you know, I think that you made around call about that or here's what you're not seeing about that. And so my

dad does that. My mom has at times, and I try to be really careful and really discerning with everything I say. But my mom has at times been like, you know what, I don't think that this was the most the best thing that you could have said on social media today about that my brother a few years ago. Okay, So I don't cuss at all, I especially like not publicly. But I think I said something one time, like I don't know, maybe seven years ago. I think I said

like bad a or something on Twitter. Uh, now I'm talking about publicly here, okay, And so, and my brother texted me and was like, you don't need to say something like that, like it just doesn't add anything to your argument. And I was like, you're totally right. There's no reason for me to say something like that. It doesn't make me sound smarter and if anything, it could

cost someone else to stumble. And so, yeah, there's a lot of people in my life who it's not constant criticism by any means, I would say, you know, by and large, it's a lot of like encouragement and you go, and that's awesome. But I definitely have people who are not afraid to say ah, I don't think so I don't think that's right. And obviously I try to preempt those mistakes by going to them and being like, what do you think about this? Should I talk about this?

Should I approach this? And I don't always get it right, you know, by any means, but I'm just thankful that I have people who are willing to speak into that.

unfairly criticize someone. And I can't even think about like a specific instance because I try not to do that, but I have. I've definitely gone back. I actually just had to correct the record on something today. It was something my guest said, not something I said, but she kind of threw someone under the bus, and it was it ended up being the wrong person. It's a little hard sometimes with the guests too, because I can't always

fact check them in the moment. But yes, I because you know, I want people to be able to trust the show, and so being able to take that feedback is important.

don't I don't know what exactly it looks like. I don't see us quitting all of this all together there, But we have some other ideas for some other projects that hopefully continue to influence Christians to think about the things that matter, but does not rely on my daily voice. If that makes sense. So that's that's what I'll say.

avoid it. Yeah, and I think to myself, how do I keep up with it though, like how would I keep informed about it? And so where do you get your information? Where are you informed to then give your Christian worldview about it?

and his flock. And I think that pastors in general probably need to do a better job of paying attention to always saying preaching about, but paying attention to local policy, especially any kind of local policy that has an effect

on their congregants and their congregants children. Like personally, I would love to see, like say, there was a local school where a bunch of parents in the congregation were sending their kids and there was I don't know, some kind of measure that was being pushed forward that would allow boys into girls' bathrooms, or maybe it's the promotion of pornographic materials in school. I think it would be completely within the purview of a pastor to speak in

to that. And maybe they don't get into the nitty gritty of the policy. Maybe they do, but to ensure that their congregants know the underneath biblical principles of that, like what is the role of the parent, What is the role of the church, What is the role of the civil government, What is the role of the parent When it comes to education, like how should we think about public education versus Christian education? What should we think about gender? What should we think about sexuality? All of

those things, they have become political. Unfortunately, it's not that it's not that pastors are becoming political. It is that politics has become very theological and pastors as like you know, the theologians and the shepherds of their flock. Where those two things intersect, especially when there is going to be a tangible impact on their community, I do think have a responsibility to speak up. And I've said before, and

I'm sure you agree with this. I might have even said it in our conversation that pastors, if they are preaching faithfully through the Bible. It's only going to take them twenty seven verses into Genesis to get into quote unquote politics, because right there we see that God created as male and female in his image. So we get the sanctity of life, We get the definition of gender and the definition of marriage all in one in the very first chapter of the first book of the Bible.

Those are called culture war issues, but those are really creation issues. And so if a pastor is simply preaching the Bible, not talking about so called politics at all, he's going to weigh into those controversial subjects. And pastors who avoid those things, it's not that you're avoiding politics, is that you're avoiding scripture. That's inconvenient, and so I

just think I think it's inevitable. There are probably a variety of ways to do it faithfully, but I do think there is a responsibility there.

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easy and it's a good gift. I've been doing this for many years now. It's a good gift to someone that is impossible to buy for and you don't know what to get them. Once again, go to cameo dot com slash Granger Smith. I got to tell you all about this. Have you heard about yege Fest. It's happening this year May ninth and tenth in Georgetown, Texas at the EEE Farm, So you can come hang out with us. Me, my brothers, my family will all be there. We've got

a truck show happening. We've got a mud bog competition, kind of like we did last year, but the new edition this year is a concert by me and my band and my old crew. This is not a tour. This is not me getting back into music. This is one time every year we hope to do a concert for my friends and family, especially Maverick who's never seen me play live before. So come out have a meal with me and my family on Friday night. I'm going to give a little devotional from the Bible, maybe play

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And honestly, sometimes you just need to ignore the current news cycle because it's gonna fade out and it's really not that important and you just have to have the discernment to.

of empathy. And in your book, this kind of begins for you in twenty twenty, which it did for.

remember thinking, I really need to sit with this. And I could see in your book you walking through this yourself, kind of unpacking the implications. Is one thing led to another as we watched it unfold. Fascinating and I love that that's the way you start this book because it takes us on a very important journey that everyone needs to talk about, and that is our empathy of just like a bunch of words have been hijacked, and it's not for our good.

kindness and morality. This is where you call it toxic empathy. Fascinating stuff you talk about how this you say your feeling and my feeling too. No one wants to be seen as unempathetic because a person who completely lacks empathy may be called a narcissist, and that we're so scared of that word, like, oh, man, I don't want to be a narcissist, but you say it extorts a real good desire that most people have, which is to be and to be perceived as kind. Right, so then we

you unpack. But empathy and kindness are not synonymous, and neither empathy and compassion. Kindness describes how we treat someone, either in word or deed. Compassion means to suffer with someone who's struggling. Both kindness and compassion are necessary components of love, but empathy literally means to be in the feelings of another person. Empathy, by itself is neither loving nor kind It's just an emotion.

everyone was posting. A lot of people felt that way, and it was probably only because I was kind of plugged into the news and had watched this Black Lives Matter movement, you know, come to the forefront that I immediately was a little skeptical and struggled with that because whenever I see something like a hashtag black Lives Matter, I know I can't take that at face value. That is an organization that has values that don't align with mine,

and we can get into that a little bit. More So, when I saw that black square everyone posting it, I knew that within that posting was the assumption that George Floyd was murdered because of his race, and I could not get on board with that assumption yet because I did not know that no one knew that by the way, based on the video footage that we saw, which was very scandalous to say at the time, and when I started trying to like push back against it and to say, look,

at least look at the other people over here who are being damaged and hurt by the riots and by the looting that's going on in the name of honoring George Floyd. These people are also black. These people are innocent, These people are poor. There was this horrible video that I remember seeing of a woman who she lived in this town, maybe it was in Kenosha, I don't remember which town it was that ended up burning down the stores being looted. She was like, I can't even go

get my prescription medicine right now. This is like an older black lady who is just crying because her town and where she earns her livelihood and where she gets her necessities has been ransacked by these people who were rioting in the name of racial justice. And when I tried to say, look, there are other people on the side of this moral equation that we shouldn't ignore, the thing that I heard over and over again was you're

not showing empathy, you're not having empathy. And of course what they meant was is that I'm not putting all my empathy in the direction that they want it to. My empathy isn't going the way that they want it to go. I'm supposed to apparently ignore the people over here, ignore the facts, ignore the unanswered questions, and just unconditionally support a cause because that is the empathetic way. I was even told by some Christians that right now the

truth doesn't matter because we should just show empathy. So that's really what started, you know, getting me to think about things like, Okay, they're using empathy as a synonym for love, but is it really loving to lie to someone? Like if someone says I think all police officers are racist, I think America is systemically racist from the core, that everyone who is not white is disadvantaged, that we have endemic white privilege, that the church is inherently white supremacist,

all this stuff. Someone believes that, Is it really loving of me to affirm it? If I know that the facts don't bear that out, and if I know that that's not even a biblical definition of justice to lump everyone in, you know, into a guilty category because of their lack of melanin, is it really loving for me? And the name of empathy to say, yeah, yeah, I know you feel that way, and you are right about that,

and I am here with you. To me, that would be like if my daughter, you know, three years old, said there's a monster in the corner of her room. I know it's a pile of clothes, but I say, you should be scared. That is a monster and it's gonna come get you. That's not loving. The loving thing for me to do would be to turn the light on now, not rudely, not aggressively, not discounting her feelings, but saying, I love you so much, you're protected, you're safe.

Look at what this really is. And I know it's a bit more complex and layered when we're talking about all of these you know, racial issues in the United States, which America has had. But that was what I wrestled with so much in that summer of twenty twenty and why what I tried to kind of like push back against.

And that is where this like when I realized, Wow, this empathy, this being in one particular side feelings, one purported victim's feelings and ignoring everything else, really is deluding a lot of people and messing up their perception of truth and justice and love and goodness, and then I saw how it manifests itself in abortion and gender in marriage and all of these other issues too, and that was kind of the basis of my book.

call for me because he's scared, he's terrified. But all I have to do is walk in there and say I'm right here, it's okay. And he believes me because he knows me, because he trusts me. And so many times we could be scared of these these dark shadows, and that would only be because we don't know who is with us?

felt with the reaction? Are you cautious about reading some of the reviews knowing that they're coming after you.

I know, landed anywhere. Like, for example, my whole chapter about same sex so called marriage or same sex unions and why I really think Oberga Fell was the wrong decision. I thought that that would make a bigger splash. My social justice chapter where I say some very inconvenient facts about crime and prison in the United States. I thought that would be the thing that kind of ruffles some feathers.

But really what made people the angriest is just the title, and I was not expecting that that people even though the subtitle explains what I'm talking about that I'm not saying that every form of empathy is toxic and that all manifestations of empathy are toxic. That's you know, I address that in the very introduction, but even the subtitle that says how progressives exploit Christian compassion, that is what I'm talking about, That this is a form of empathy

that has been hijacked and manipulated. Not that all empathy is in itself toxic, but people have taken the title and have said, you know, David French just put an article out in the New York Times that you know, people like Alibeth Stucky are against empathy and they're against anyone using their empathy to think through issues, and all kinds of people who just touch that title yes and just say, oh, you know, she doesn't have any empathy.

She's against all empathy. People shouldn't have empathy for her because she doesn't have empathy for anyone. I'm surprised at how much conversation and dialogue and heated debate the title alone, cause I'm thankful for it. I mean, every author wants the title of their book to become kind of like

part of the lexicon and part of the dialogue. I wish some of the people misrepresenting it would actually read the book, even if they disagree, Like I'm fine with the review from someone who says I didn't like it because of X y Z, but read it, read it beyond the first two words, but a lot of the misrepresentations just aren't truthful. To answer your question, I don't really read the I don't read the negative reviews.

it's not redemptive time at all. Those are not seeds that you know I've planned that will bloom an eternity. That is like anxiety and worry and fear wasted. And so you're right. I don't typically do that. And it's not even just for that to protect my own piece. It's because it's hard for me to have self control when I want to respond to people, because I want to match their sassiness. I want to be rude back to them. I want to insult them back, and so it you know, I mean, it inspire sin and so

I just don't. I just try not to. But I'll tell you also like a little story, and this is all part of the apparatus of trying to protect that. My friend the other day, I actually don't really like love it when this happens. But I had a friend and you know, well meaning sent me something saying like, did you see this like podcast that these two people did about you, talking about you misrepresenting you? And I was like, no, I didn't see that. And so I whipped at my husband and I was like, hey, did

you see this? And he was like, oh, yeah, I listened to it yesterday. He was like I wanted to listen to it just to see like if they said anything or you know, if there was any like response to you. It was fine, They're just stupid and don't worry about it. And so that like I feel very covered and like protected that. My husband is like fielding a lot of that criticism. He's not responding to them, but he's can out and I don't feel like if he doesn't feel like there's a threat. That's the only

thing I'm worried about. Is there a threat to my kids? Is there a threat to us? Is there some like crazy lie going on out there? And I feel that he is looking out for that, and if he's doing that, then I don't need to worry about it at all.

And all of a sudden, it seems like there was just this growing group of people who I would have thought, Okay, we're on the same team, we're both Christian conservatives, being like, no one should listen to her simply because she's a woman. This is a culture war. Women shouldn't be fighting battles. And I'm like, I'm just talking. This is I mean,

it's a metaphor, this is not literal battle. I agree women shouldn't be in combat, but we're talking here and so, but that was very stressful because it wasn't just progressive as being like, oh, she's pro life or something, because I understand those people have a different worldview. It's people kind of on my team and it and it went into the personal realm of oh wow, like am I good mom? Am I good wife? Am I like a

following Ephesians five? Like all of this stuff. It kind of cut deep as someone who doesn't even believe women should be pastors, women should preach. I don't call myself a feminist. I'm very much a complimentarian. To have these people who call themselves beyond complimentarian say you know, I'm too liberal. That kind of hurt me, and I just remember my pastor very like kind of subtly, but clearly

and directly. He just you know, came up to my husband and me after the sermon one day it was like, I just want you to know, like, sorry, I'm not about to cry. I just got something.

know to be private? But he's been very supportive. And then when my book came out and some of the criticism that I got from people like Russell Moore and David French and all of that was out there, the executive pastor also kind of had a conversation with my husband and me after service one day and was like, I read your book. I think it's brave it's good, it's biblical. Thank you for writing it, and that like

coming from your pastors, it just means a lot. It means a lot, and so you just feel very protected on a variety of fronts family church, and again that insulates you from a lot, a lot of the craziness and just the exhaustion that comes with the whole news and politics world.

But that's how a body is. That eye is different.

building things together. But he's always said, it's the love for what I do goes beyond being willing to do it for free, like I would pay to do it. That's what he's always said, like he would pay to do what you do. And he's always just wanted to support that as much as possible. But he has always said, if you don't want to do that at any point, don't stop. We'll figure it out. And that, I mean, there's just so much freedom in that and beauty in that too. So yes, I'm very very grateful.

need to be. Yeah, And so the fact that you're holding it loosely is I believe biblical and and and that's why I believe you're as happy as you are because you just seem with all the things going on, you could easily be jaded and depressed and you know, frazzled, and you just you kind of just always seem level

and that's encouraging. Let me ask you, did you did you have a radical conversion or do you Are you one of those that just you grew up in a Christian home and you you can't remember a time when you're not you're not a Christian.

And it was very stupid and even though you know, some people would laugh like, oh, that's what everyone does in college, and yeah, that's you know, what college students should do, at least it was isolated to that. I don't think of it like that. I don't think of that period of time in my life when I was twenty one twenty two and I decided to party and rely on like unhealthy relationships for attention as just like

this trivial time. I see it as time wasted. I don't beat myself up about it every day, because I'm thankful for the grace of God and how He's redeemed me and all of that. But what makes me sad about it is that I knew better and I still decided to go down that path. I ended up developing an eating disorder that ended up God ended up using that to actually like bring me back because a biblical counselor spoke truth into my life because of that addiction

that I had. But I just I really see that period of like just sin and rebellion in my life, with a lot of like, with a lot of sadness, a lot of gratitude for God for just being so gracious and bringing me back and just being as forgiving and kind as he is. But I think I think it's good. I'm glad I feel sad about that time. I think we should always feel sad about sin. I

think we should always feel that grief about it. And it also has given me a lot of I hope, wisdom to be able to equip my daughters for whenever, you know, whatever they go out into the world and whatever that looks like. It's so easy to trivialize sin when you're young. It's not trivial. Like sin is never trivial. It's never trivial. That's what I want to tell people. It's ver small and so yeah, I don't know if

I would call that a radical conversion. But I also can't say that it was a straight line from A to b if a testimony, ever, is a straight line from A to B. Yeah, And you know, God works all things together for our good and his glory, and even that part of my life he has and will. But yes, there was that period of just turning my back on things in college that i'm yeah, still sad about.