So you were just a single solo guy. As a solo guy, yeah, okay, how long are you in the industry performing and recording?
My first album was nineteen ninety nine, so.
Oh my goodness, that's kind of a lot. And you left what year?
My final tour was twenty twenty three. August of twenty twenty three.
Okay, see, I like five years on the road and recording. And did you become a Christian after that? I mean, I mean, well, in the midst of all that you want a Christian when you started touring.
I thought I was. I was a cultural Christian. I always thought, you know, grew up in a Christian home. I'm from the Bible Belt, so always could have articulated the Gospel and told you that I was a believer. But it wasn't until later in my life when the Lord radically converted me through tragedy, which which does happen quite a bit. Tragedy and suffering will test of faith and you can see the genuineness of that faith through that suffering, and I didn't have any That's what I discovered.
And so when I became a Christian and then and really started reading the Bible for the first time, and not just as a devotional or as like an instruction manual for my life, but actually unfolding the narrative of God's people and what he has done, and who he is and who we are in relation to who he is. I started seeing some inconsistencies in my life, and part of that was I'm a singer exalting myself every day, and I don't know how that's reconciling with taking up my cross.
Yeah yeah, well I think it. You can be a performer and do a good job, but the mentality and attitude is really hard to manage, you know. I mean, this is something that people in my business have to deal with. So trying to get better known and people come up to you, and they even even Amy yesterday, Amy Hall. So you know who Amy Hall is.
I don't think so.
Oh okay, So I'm not sure how fully you are with Standard Reason. But we have two podcasts. We have two hours a week to hours a week where I do the podcast and we have two other separate twenty five minute segments where Amy Hall on our team takes questions that gets sent in and she asked me the questions, I respond and then she adds brilliance to it. So that's Amy. So Amy's got a cult following too, as it turns out, of big fans that she's not even
aware of because she doesn't get out much. It's just she does the radio stuff. But when she does show up at events, people flock to her. Oh Amy kind of thing. But anyway, Amy said, and our star Greg cochol I said, Amy, don't even talk like that. I said that out of the air because I don't want people to I don't want to think of my stuff like that. I don't want people to think of myself. I'm just hey, I'm here as a brother in the Lord.
I'm offering something that may be useful, and you should be doing the same kind of thing with other people in your life. Okay, this is just what I do. So we have to. I think all of us have to be vigilant. So I think it's possible to be really effective in the say, in the music business, but it is very hard because so many people are genuflecting to you, bowing down to you, saying all of these wonderful things that may be true about your craft, but
people take them way too seriously. So I just saw just a couple of days ago. Actually, on the way back. I don't know how much time you have here, so I want to be sensitive to that.
But go ahead, and I'm here to here. I'm here to listen to you.
We're just kind of getting warmed up a little bit. I don't even know what we're going to talk about today. I'll follow you wherever you want to go. It's all right, it's your show. And I've heard here to help that out. But but I watched a Complete Unknown on the flight back from Dallas from uh from Nashville on Sunday night, and that's about a Bob Dylan.
Right.
Have you seen this?
I have not seen it. I've heard about Okay, I.
Really enjoyed it. But I experienced this film on a number of levels. Now, I was born in nineteen fifty and so this is sixty to sixty five of Bob Dylan. I'm very familiar with that time. That's when they had the Cuban missile crisis in sixty two, that's when John Kennedy was assassinated in sixty three, and they're showing this new stuff in the background with Walter Cronkite Man. I have a vivid memory of all of that stuff. And I also have a memory of the burgeoning countercultural movement
that Bob Dylan was a significant part of. And so it's very interesting to see. I don't know if you follow his career at all, but it's really an amazing career. And it may be that he's a Christian testimony now, but he sure wasn't then he was a nobody. They followed from when he's a nobody to when he's Probably the argue with sixty five. Now this says the Beatles had just just kind of began to penetrate a little bit in sixty, say, sixty three and sixty four the
American population, and so they were big. But the It's one didn't deal with any of that stuff. It dealt with this burgeoning folk music kind of thing that he was a part of, and he was like an unbelievable superstar by sixty five starts at sixty sixty. But you could see the corruption. Well, I want to be careful wh I say this. There was it certainly had a corruptic influence on his life, but he was already corrupted. He was not a virtuous man. He was utterly selfish,
and self centered and self consumed. He did not care about anyone's feelings about anything. All he cared about was himself. So I don't know if that's actually accurate characterization, but this is a biopic that's done about the guy who's still alive.
Yeah, I should say something about that.
Yeah, it seems too he's in a place to say that's not true about me or whatever, that didn't happen that way or whatever. But anyway, those.
Are good characteristics to be a good popular singer. To care only about yourself because you are the product.
See I wonder though if that's necessary. You know, it's it's one thing too. I understand that you are the product, okay, but how you how you characterize yourself as the product? You can look at the proverb says, let another praise you and not your own self. Okay, so don't praise yourself, but let other people pray. Use as appropriate. But that doesn't mean you let it go to your head. And now I'm not going to talk to people who are beneath me. I'm gonna babb a boh this. Then there
are people in the business. I don't know about your business, But who is the guy here, I'm trying to download names.
That's okay.
Well, I know Kirk Camera for example. He just lives down the road and we get together from now and we've known each other a long time. Kirk is a true blue, absolutely down to earth, totally humble guy. But he's you know, he's got he's got a great CV in terms of his contribution. Now, people haven't noticed him much lately. He does faith films and stuff like that.
But then who's the other guy who is the great? Well, I can say is like the kung fu guy with the beard, and he had a TV show for a while. He's very very accomplished martial arts guy. When martial arts he made a movie with Bruce Lee and stuff like that. I'm trying to think of his name. He's an older guy now, Zackie. No, no, no, this is a white guy. So if I said a debut, do it. But I saw him in the airport once, okay, and I didn't talk to him, but some kids came up to him.
They recognized it because he had a TV show and uh, oh, okay, remember say but he is oh, he was great, you know, no airs about him at all. He was just down to earth kind of person. And so here's a guy with a lot of fame, and yet he was a very easygoing kind of person, very ordinary and very approachable. There are people like that in the industry and they don't let it go to their heads. So I think it's possible to do that a certain field, certainly, but it's hard.
So Kirk Kirk and I have actually had this conversation, this very conversation, and he has he'll readily admit that it's dangerous for him.
Yeah.
So, so we need to surround ourselves with people that can buffer that protect us, give us some level of protection by not just becoming yes men, uh, but but men that are that could be around us and not afraid to say I think you're wrong on that, buddy, Yeah.
I don't think.
I don't think you're you're you're good here and and and so Kirk it has told me that over the years he's he has struggled because when people do praise you, it's it's a little.
Bit of poison to you. Yeah.
Yeah, you just got to be careful of it and mindful.
Right.
So, I mean, Jesus, Jesus, people praise Jesus a lot too. At least for the first staff of his ministry, you know. But you know it's it's just got built in liabilities and we have to be careful of and frankly, from what I understand about the CCM industry, you know, most people have not fared well in the midst of that. You know, that's right, do you know Alisa Childers? Yes, yeah, okay, so I mean she says that is such a corrupt industry on the Christian side, the CCM sign.
I know, we had an artist, a famous artists here just the other day. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, And I do say I usually need to add this to my story that it wasn't only the me to feel the need to back away from the industry because of some kind of.
Feeling of self exaltation. There was also, to.
The Lord's credit, he was reducing a passion that I had for it and raising it in other areas.
Yeah that's great, that's really great. Well it made it easier, huh, that's right. People have to make the hard choice. I think Kirk might have an example. I mean, this guy was at the was I mean, he's one of the I don't know what they call him now, but like he was one of those boy charmer types. You know, he was on the face of the teen idol magazines and whatever. But you know, I don't know they ever lost his passion for what he was doing. But the Lord got a wholettle bit of a good way. Is
his sister's still working a lot. You know, I don't know how that's working out for her, but but the I'm glad to hear that you have somebody like Kirk because I'm sure sure you'd agree with me. He's a true blue. This guy is just fabulous, you know he is. He for like for many years. On my birthday, get a note from him just saying, Hey, I'm just I'm just a guy, you know down the street. You know, I got some things I do and he appreciates that. But it wasn't like I was, you know, he's kissing
up to me or anything. But he was just encouraging me. So it was really sweet.
That's wonderful.
Well you're I'm not I'm not sure if it was your secretary or who who we reached out to to set this up.
Darcy. Darcy, Yeah, we don't have secretary, okay. Colleagues and co.
Workers, Colleagues and co workers, Darcy said respectfully. Darcy said, may I ask why you would like to speak with Greg in this podcast? And I think that was a great question, and I think part of it, there's evidence in what we've talked about so far that that was a valid question.
So maybe I should tell you how I know you? Okay, yeah, I was.
I was in a couple of years ago in a seminary class and doctor Timothy Booker do you know you know, I don't know him.
It's southern. Oh yeah, in Louisville, Yes, in Louisville, Louisville, and so mixed up.
This was a personal evangelism class. We get assigned, you know, the pile of books, as as every class assigns, and then there's there was this one in that pile and I started going through this and I just became so fascinated by you in your ministry. And like I said, this was a couple of years ago, so perhaps I'm late on this interview. But as we started putting together a list of who I would like to talk to, I just thought if I could talk to Greg Cochle,
that would be fantastic. And I don't really care if we release it or not. I would just like to have a conversation.
And I'm easy, you know, I'm not like it's just schedule concerns, that's all. But I'm you know, I talked to lots of folk. Actually, there's a gal all right in Nashville. You might know her dad. Her name is Ava Cook, I think Abra Cochrane, and her dad is named dot Dan and he's a young guy. Yeah do you know that name?
Yeah? I do.
Oh, okay, Well she's like, well when she interviewed me, she was probably fourteen. She was fourteen years old. She's got her own podcas us and everything. You know, she's probably seventeen now. But my view was, all right, if I can have an impact through her or even if it's a small audience, I'm.
Happy for that.
Plus I wanted to I wanted to encourage her as as a person who's doing something unique. And you know how many fourteen year olds do that kind of thing. There's a few, but not many, and so so that's I mean, that's my general view is, like, like I said, I'm not hard to get. I'm glad to be here with you. And as long as the schedule stuff works out for me, you know, and I can make a contribution,
be an encouragement to you. Look at the way I look at it, Granger, If if we if we never do the podcast after our conversation here, my trust is that God is going to will have made a contribution in your life that's that's useful and will be durable. I mean, And that's what time I'll spend this for us. If that's all we get out of.
This, and then well, what really the way if you could imagine there's a lot of country music people that kind of have bled over into this and to this program now, and so I find a unique opportunity now to collect things like your book Tactics, to collect people like Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort and Frank Turk, and collect these guys and put them on a on a platform of people, perhaps even a younger generation that goes I don't know Ray Comfort, I don't know Frank Turk or Greg Cochele.
Who are they?
And so then I say, well, let me provide a special window into something that I've loved for a long time, and let me have some some discussions that that might open up a door to someone else.
As you said that the Lord could use.
When did you first realize that you had a gifting in apologetics?
Do you want to start rolling and this will be part of the interview or.
Would you be would you be mad at me if I told you we've been rolling since we.
Started talk all, you can use whatever you want, so and edit if you want. I mean, there's nothing I've said that you know it's discreditable. Anyway, I was going to ask you that the end, okay, when the warning would have been good at the beginning, because sometimes I'm a bit earthy, Let's put it that way. The way the question was when did I when.
Did you realize you had a gifting and apologetics in Christian apologetics?
Well, actually, I would not look at it that way. Wait, Grader, I began developing an interest in it very early on. And because now I'm almost fifty two years in christ even though I became a Christian as a young adult in nineteen seventy three, so it was twenty three years old, I realized, well, first of all, I did not become a Christian in this influence in the same way like some of my colleagues. So you got a least trouble for example, Well, apologetics were a huge factory and is
coming to Christ. You mentioned Frank. I think that might have been the case with Frank Turick as well, and a lot of people who do what I do. They had apologetics as a launching pad for their own convictions about Christ, and so it was natural for them to keep going. That is not the case for me. All I can say is the I mean, it's very unglamorous, but I just came to a realization over time that Christianity was true. So I guess, you know, this is
the Holy Spirit obviously has to work in everybody. But this is just the way it happened. And my younger brother Mark had been the one who is sharing Christ more with me. I had run into a lot of Christians prior to that time. You know, I went to Michigan State University for a few years seventy to seventy two. You know, spring break, you want to get out of the gloam of Michigan and so down you go to Fort Lauderdale or Daytona Beech or whatever and have fun.
And there's always these annoying Christians that are trying to spoil your right and they're you know, talking about this and so I was willing to engage them because I thought they were nuts. I was raised Roman Catholic, but by the time I was eighteen, I was done with that. You know, I had no conviction was actually true. And when I realized it was wasn't true. Why should I
believe that? I'm off? And I thought, by the way, that I had tried Christianity, Oh yeah, been there, done that, But I hadn't obviously, and at least my own experience with Catholicism, which by the way, was pre Vatican two, so our advances were still Latin, and Vatican two moved Catholicism in a whole different direction that I don't think has been good. That's another discussion. But I'm not making a sweeping statement about Catholics and their convictions. I'm just saying,
in my case, I blew this off. I don't want that, Ben, They're done that. And I was embracing the world. And this was nineteen sixty eight, was when I graduate high school. I'm telling you that there was the Beatles, there was the Rolling Stones, there was the anti war movement, there
was free love. There was everything exploding on the scene, which was absolutely fascinating to a young man like myself who had just kind of thrown off the shackles of religion and I'm embracing a whole the world in a
new way. And this is one of the things that really touched me by watching this biopic on Bill Bobby Dylan, because as we're trafficking through sixty to sixty five, the period of that film, I'm listening to all this music that was not only familiar to me, but the words mattered, you know, the words mattered, you know, like a rolling stone, you know, with no direction home, you know, a complete unknown.
Well that when you read all the lyrics of that song, he was kind of saying, this is a dismal life. But for me, that line just stood out. I didn't wasn't paying attention to everything. You just picked that. Yeah that's me, man, I'm a rolling stone. I got no direction, nobody's telling me what to do. I'm not going home. I had a bad relation with my dad. I'm gone and that was very liberating. And so when I'm listening to this, I was getting very emotional watching the movie.
I did actually a number of times, but part of it was this identification with this period where I was going through this stuff. So that was a big deal, and it wasn't until years later, So that was sixty eight. By the time nineteen seventy three, my younger brother had become a Christian and he was talking to me more about Jesus. Now that's a more personal relationship, and I kind of shined him on. He was more of the job. We were all in athletics, but he was the real
accomplished jock, you know. And I thought, Okay, he needs that. I don't. I was the only child of five that went to university and I was an honors college at Missigan State. Blah blah blah. I'm too smart for that, that was my thinking. Yeah, but we were both in southern California in nineteen seventy three for different reasons. But he really honed in on me, And all I can say is that I just got warned out by the
message that he was offering with no apologetics. He really loved me, he was He told me, wants Greg the things that I'm telling you are true. One day you're going to find this out. I hope that when you do, it's not too late. Notice that was a very straightforward, honest statement, and the kind of statement. A lot of people aren't willing to say nowadays because they kind of gussie all this up and with God being, oh, he loves you, You're wonderful, blah blah blah. You know, it's,
by the way, just a point of information. There's fourteen times the Gospel is preached in the Book of Acts, and not a single time is the love of God mentioned. These were the people who were trained by Jesus. By the way, their message is different. You want to know what the message is than all your viewers whatever, can go back and check it out. But that's what I did. I isolated all these passages. I wanted to see what the message was.
And by the way, I say these things, and you know, people get mad, but I'm letting you say it is great.
Okay.
You give me a lot of latitude, you give me a rope to hang myself.
No, that's okay.
I mean to get now quickly to the to the point. After I became a Christian, I didn't have any of this stuff, and I had all kinds of questions that still need to answer. I was still pro abortion, a still pro evolution in the Darwinian sense. I was still let's see, you know, pre metal sex, I didn't work that thing out, you know all, and there were a lot of stuff that but I was convinced that Jesus was the Savior and the grace of God was real, and I was now a recipient of the grace of God,
and that changed everything, and so the other things. My statement is that you know, God catches this fish first and then he cleans them, you know, And I think that's an actually theologically accurate way of looking at it.
And it was afterwards. I still had my own questions, and I'm in I mean U c l A. And I've got people on the streets of Westwood Village and there are all kinds of religious trips being peddled at that time, and I want to tell them about Jesus, and I have nothing to say in response to all of the challenges they offer me. So very quickly I got involved in a Christian community that I moved into four months after I became a Christian, maybe five and
February first of seventy four. And I stayed there for two and a half years, and I got lots of training and teaching from guys that had been with the campus crusade for many years, and they all got mad at Dick da I'm sorry at Bill Bright at the same time, and they left and they started this Christian community. I mentioned the name Dick Day. He was one of the teachers there, and he had disciple Josh mcdell, and
they all had DTS education Dallas Theological Seminary. So I kind of fell into this incredible environment where I had Christian community, lots of Christians around me, we all Jesus freaks, and nevertheless, we had people with street experience and evangelism and good solid theology that were there teaching us and training us on a regular basis in that school. And it was called the Jesus Christ Light and Powerhouse. Sounds kind of corny, but it was great. How I set
a trajectory for my life. Anyway, I've taken up too much time. Granger with that along answer.
I asked you to talk here. People are used to hearing me talk. This is wonderful. Yeah, So what I'm hearing. Part of what I'm hearing in this is that you took the time, as Paul did, as the apostle Paul did, to get educated, to be bored into before you came out and were and were shaking up the world with books like Taxis.
Yeah that that first came out in two thousand and nine.
Yeah.
Long, So what was I that's seventy three, eighty three, ninety three, two thousand and three, that I was thirty thirty five years old Christ before I wrote that book, thirty five years of speaking on university campuses and doing radio. Well, I hadn't been doing radio only ten years at that point, no more like twenty years. In any event, there was lots of time that I had logged, and all of the things that are in that book Tactics were things
that developed. It crystallized in my mind over time. I began doing this and that and the other thing, and oh wait that doesn't work well, how about this? And reflecting on these things. And I was also I already had a master's de gaate apologetics. I was ten, like two thousand and nine, I was like fifteen years actually, I completed my master's degree in philosophy under JP Moorland. And so I had a lot of different stuff that I'd been building up. Kind of being a student of
my craft is the way I usually put it. That then all kind of came together in this book in two thousand and nine, and then I expanded on it thirty five percent in the ten year anniversary edition, which is the one you flashed right, Yeah, got the red thing at the top.
Yeah, that's right.
So you had many tools in your barn or your toolkit, and many teachers too great and many teachers are so important.
Yeah, that were so helpful. I drew from lots of different people that were either mentors of mine close by or mentors at a distance.
That's one. Yeah, wonderful.
And when was it that you developed this idea of the I don't know how you say it, the impossible question, the unanswerable question, and that is, oh are you telling.
Me the one that's online?
If I don't believe the way you believe, Yeah, then I'm going to help.
Well, you know, that was put to me by d Pak Chilpra, who is probably the most well known New Age guru in the world. I mean, he's one of the few people who are recognized by his first name
only Dpak, you know. And I think that interview happened in like two thousand, Well it's before the book came out, maybe two thousand and eight, because Les Strobel, who sponsored that event, then wanted to write the introduction to to Tactics, and that's when he hit me with that question, and so I use that kind of as a foil his statement. But of course it's come up before and when people it's like, it's the way they ask the question. If I don't believe just like you do, then you're saying
I'm going to hell. Well, it's a very manipulative way to ask the question because it makes it sound like you're so egotistical. People have to believe just like you or they're going to be punished, and you're happy they're going to be punished because they're not agreeing with you. And so this is a question that has to be handled carefully. And I have been asked versions of that
in a number of different ways. And in that little clip that you are making reference to that standard reason is put online, I explain the best way around that. I can't remember all the details of what I said way back when when that was up there, but it's basically the way I approach it. Actually a dpak what I said to him, because now we're on TV okay, and you've got to really manage your time, well, in a situation like that, and I deflected it. In his case,
he asked the question, but I deflected it. I said, no, that's not what I'm saying, because I wasn't saying. If everybody believes doesn't believe, just like I believe, you know what, that covers a lot of ground. Right, They're going to hell, all right, Nobody goes to hell, even if you just isolated to the issue of Jesus. Nobody goes to hell because I don't believe in Jesus, not a single person. The criterion for judgment is right there in Revelation twenty.
The books are open and everyone is judged according to their deeds. They're not judged as to whether Jesus saved them or not. So Jesus is the doctor. He's not the disease. He's not the thing that kills people. Okay, it's kind of like some you look at a tombstone that says cause of death, stupidity. He didn't go to the doctor. You know, well, the doctor might have saved him, but the doctor didn't kill him. Right, it's the disease that killed him or not going to the doctor didn't
kill him. And in the same way. The point here is is that everyone, let me look at I'll put it this way if I have a second in this because I was asked this question by Dennis Prager, who maybe a lot of your listeners know, and I'm known for forty years. And he had me in a Q and a session. He's Jewish, and he had me in a Q and a session with probably three or four hundred Jews, and he asked me the question is we talk? He knew my answer, but he's trying to be a
foil for the conversation with the Jewish audience. He said, ask me if Jesus is the only way of salvation and believing in him. Well, here's all these Jews that don't believe in Jesus. So and I told him this. So they just said, yes, you get the wrong impression. It'll sound anti Semitic, which, by the way, when people ask this question, it's meant to make the Christian look foolish.
Yes, okay.
And so what I said is, so let me explain it. I said, people think that, you know, God looks down on the world and sees all these religious clubs, and he plays favorites. I mean, this is the way it sounds to some people who are exclusivistic. He plays favorites, and for a long time the Jews were his favorites. Then he got really mad at the Jews. Now the Christians are his favorites, and to hell with everyone else. Yeah, kind of quite literally, I said, that's not the way
it happens. God is not looking at religious clubs. He's looking at a world of human beings that he longs to be in relationship with.
The is.
They've rebelled against him, every single one. Yes, now this is a problem. Now they're guilty for rebelling against the sovereign of the universe. They've broken his laws countless times every day. So now what So he offers a pardon if you take the pardon on the grounds that he offers it Jesus who paid the penalty in our place and a Jewish audience, they said, much like you would sacrifice bulls and goats to cover the sin of the people, in the same way, Jesus now covers the sin of
those who put their confidence in him. Now, if you don't do that, all right, you're on your own. You stand in the docket, and you have to give an accounting for your life such as it is, and you will be punished for all the crimes that you committed against God. By the way, that won't be a pretty picture.
I won't.
And the good things you do that doesn't work. You can't balance those out. For one, they won't balance out. You're always going to lose on that assessment, and secondly on God's criteria of sin all right. And secondly, even even in our Jewish jurisprudence system here, you can't just you know, keep all the laws and be really good citizen. And the DA gives sins. And anoying said, hey, you
haven't broken any laws. Why don't you knock off a few gas stations on us because you've got credit in your account.
You know.
Now the law requires to keep them all, and you keep mall except for one, then you're guilty.
Yeah.
No, I mean that's the way law works. So that's not going to help. And I said, so here's the simple calculus. Either Jesus pays or you pay. Either Jesus pays or you pay. So it's up to you. Forget about Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and all that other stuff. We all know we're broken. We all know we're guilty, and you guys all know there's God who is just and will have justice upon those who deserve it. This is not good news.
If you need to get a hold of me for any reason, go to cameo dot com slash Granger Smith. In fact, I just literally got a message from Cameo that says a guy named Ian now has a request for me. So what I do is I open this up and I go check out what Ian wants me to say for him, and for this it is a happy birthday to Melinda. So I will reach out to Melinda. I say happy birthday. It's Granger Smith here. I hope
you have an amazing day. And I'm gonna tell her what else that I have here on the little list that Ian has given me. And then I send it back to him and then he has a video message from me that then goes out to Melinda. It's really cool, it's super easy. I've been doing this for about six years now. So if you want to find me and get a special video message of any kind, go to a cameo dot com slash Granger Smith.
So that was essentially the message that A communicated to that particular group. But it is really the core of the way I talk to anybody who raises this question that stops Christians in their tracks because they don't know how to characterize it. They come up with slogans, Oh, Jesus is the only way he died for our sins. Of course that's all true, but it doesn't register with people. They don't. We have to try to say it in
a way that makes sense to them. I felt like the explanation I gave to that Jewish audience, it'll lead. At least it was coherent, you know, they could make sense to the point I was making. Now, may not
accept it. I suspect most didn't. But nevertheless, if you look at the parable of the sower in Mark thirteen, where Jesus explains the parable to the disciples, he mentions the first ground, which is hard ground on the seed is thrown on it and the birds take it away, and he says, this is the devil taking the seeds away. And I always thought, well, that's the hard headed people that it just bounces off, and a lot of those
that's not the way Jesus put it. What Jesus says there in Matthew thirteen is he says, this is the people who hear the word and do not understand it, and then the devil takes out what has been sewn in their heart is what he says. It's getting in there makes no sense to them. It's gone, and so we have to talk in a way that at least makes sense to people. They can't reject something they don't understand, not in a meaningful way. They still will be judged
for the rebellion. But when we bring an antidote, just like if a doctor brings an antidote to you, if they don't understand, if you don't understand what he's talking about or how to apply the antidote, you're not going to do it anyway. So there you go.
So let me ask you something that where do we reconcile this idea with In Acts twenty, Paul is calling for the Ephesian elders right to him.
This is before he goes.
To Jerusalem, and you know he's got his trial ahead of him. The Efesian elders know that this is the last time they're going to be with their beloved Paul, and he tells them in his short time. There is the account that Luke gives us. He tells them, I am innocent of the blood of all because I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. Right that, by implication would mean that there is such a thing as a half council or a quarter council.
What are you saying when? What are you thinking of? When Paul's talking about the whole council? Where's the danger of delivering a half council?
Does that make sense? Yeah?
It does, But we have I know this passage well. In fact, I read it last week. I just finished the book I Acts a couple of days ago. It just happened to be in my reading. And boy, isn't it Isn't that the case if you're concern and you're reading through scripture, it just so happens that something you just read pops up as an issue and need to
be described. Okay, And I I think that Paul is not talking there about a culpability before God with regards to this stuff, like if I don't share my whatever with certain people, then I am going to be guilty before God. And so it's either guilt or innocence. I shared everything, so I'm not guilty before God. I think I think that what's going on there.
Yes, and I recoonize we're talking about two different things. When we're talking about we just got through talking about the judgment of God. This is we're not talking about the same the same subject. So I'll just I'll say that here, Okay.
I think that yeah, fair enough, Okay, as long as that that's the distinction is made. Some people might read that and say, well, okay, now I'm guilty if I correct, and I am culpable before God. Now. But I think if you remember the history with the Aphesians, he spent two years in Ephesus. That's one of the reasons those relationships are so strong. And when they're they meet at the beach and he says, I'm not going to see anymore,
and boy, they are really anguished about it. But he says the time will come when vicious wolves will ravage the flock. And what he's saying is, before you, I have told you everything you need to know. I have given you the full council of God. Now that isn't true. And a whole bunch of other cities he went to. He didn't have time to do that. But with the Ephesians. He did. He spent about two years in the school of Haranus or whatever he said there and had a
long time with them, working with them. It is a very spiritually mature group of Christians, and so I think that statement applies to that group. I've done what was necessary to protect you. I can't be called to account for not having given this to you. But as it turns out, there are lots of other places he didn't spend much time in at all, and he had to send Timothy and Titus at other times to choose elders for those fledgling flocks. He didn't have time to do
the whole council of God. So I think that this responsibility to give the full counsel of God is a long term goal that we ought to have as Christian workers and leaders, if you will. Pastors, however, to keep communicating to various groups all the things that are important, and some people you get a lot more time with. So I have my own team, I call it. I have twenty people on my staff. Nineteen and four others of them or five one, two, three four five others
right now are content providers. I have spent a lot of time with them personally out to dinner at events. We do regular interactive things online now because we can do this kind of thing a lot more access, even though they're spread out now around the country. And I could say, in some cases it's been twenty years or nineteen years or fifteen years or whatever. This this group, I call them my young guns. I'm the old gun.
And I can say to them, I gave you the full counsel of God because I had the opportunity to do so, and I was intentionally investing myself in lots of different ways into their lives all right.
Now.
I couldn't say that about you, Granger. You know, I know you listen to some of the things that standard reason to read the book. I've offered you something, and it's true with a lot of people. But those guys, my young guns, are capable now of protecting the flock that is is in their charge, Amen giving them the whole counsul. So I think that's it's not so much he's saying I'm innocent before God. I think he's saying with you guys, I'm innocent before you guys.
Yeah, I read it's the same.
I think you're absolutely right and the what ends up happening in ephesis is that wolves do come, and and not only from the outside, from the inside.
Is the the scary part.
And what a what a comfort to know that you are You are a minister that is so diligent in this, not only in your team and your your ministry and your equipping, but also in your personal devotion. You just mentioned you finished Acts a few days ago. It wouldn't hard, it wouldn't be hard to understand that you've gone through Acts hundreds and hundreds of times.
In your in your life.
But but but it's still it's still not enough. You will do that continually till you have.
Well, let me say something about that because this might be helpful to viewers, and that is I have people ask me about techniques of Bible study, techniques of prayer. I know about Bible study. That I do about prayer. Prayers almost a complete mystery to me. I do not understand what might be called the calculus of prayer. And Lewis made a point, look at you're not dealing with
a machine. You're dealing with a person, and so persons can say yes, no, maybe, so whatever you know, so you can't really maybe calculus isn't the right word to use in a very precise sense, but generally speaking, Gee, how many prayers do you have to pray? How do you pray? This is hard for me, and I have books on prayer that are helpful, but I came down to this one simple thing. Okay, here's the first rule of prayer, s granger, pray, the first rule of prayers.
Pray.
You learn how to pray by praying. And if you don't understand anything else, and you can't forget, how I just pray? You have not because you ask not knock, seek, not ask, seek knock. You know kind of thing, stay at it. Just keep doing it even if you're confused.
Okay.
And the first rule of Bible is to read. You know, you can get all kinds of commentaries and get all this set up and have all these systems, but lots of times you don't time for the systems. You still have time to read. Look, here's there's some things you cannot do tomorrow. You cannot pray today's prayer tomorrow. You can only pray tomorrow's prayers tomorrow. You cannot read today's Bible tomorrow. That's tomorrow's Bible. You can only read today's
Bible today. Now sometimes you miss it. You know, I'm traveling, I get up and the you know, I get that. But I do have a commitment though I've read through the Bible a number of times over the up until that's about twenty four twenty five years as a Christian. But I camped a lot in passages that I like the best. I like Proverbs, I like the New Testament. And then I was challenged by Jay Warner Wallace. He was doing an event for us, and he was using
his cold case illustrations. But basically he says, you ought to start at the beginning and read to the end, and when you're done, start at the beginning and read to the end. And when you're done, start at the beginning and read to the end and never stop your whole life. And so the way, And I've explained this to my own listeners. How I just have it's over there in my Bible, which you can't read from here.
But I have a Bible in a year kind of thing when you check off the chapters and stuff, and sometimes it's two or three chapters and only read one chapter. So I just make a notation there. But my goal is to work through that whole thing, and I don't care about the year part takes me three to four years. What I care about is continuing to read through the material so that I read the whole thing, and then I get a new thing I printed out, I start
all over. And what this ensures, and this goes back to your comment about the Ephesian elders, it ensures that I am exposed to the full council of God. And it's nothing tricky, nothing fancy, no pressure. You know, if I don't read three chapters, I mean, some people do a Bible in the year and by February they're done because they're too far behind and they can't catch up. Well, don't worry about the year part. Just keep reading at your own pace. Make it a regular Usually it's a
chapter a day for me. And if I don't do it in the morning because I'm traveling whatever, Usually when I go to bed at night, before I turn in, I'm reading something. I'll read a psalm, I'll read a pop I'm working through the psalms and proverbs in my
own home. When I'm on the road, I might look something else up and read a little section, but I just want that all just getting into me, even if I'm not particularly reflective on it, and there is a sense of the more you do this well, John MacArthur said long ago, you want to read the Bible so much that your blood is bibi. I thought that was pretty clever.
I think that was very clever.
So what this represents for me, you know, I'm busy and everybody's busy, right is we find a way we're not too busy to eat. Yea, we find a way to you know, bolt something, sit down, maybe have a longer bial a lot of time, quicker or whatever. I've got some protein drink in the back I got to grab before this is over.
But the.
The same thing is true with our spiritual nourishment. It doesn't have to be complicated. We have to have a banquet every time we sit down. Just keep eating a little here, a little there, a little here, a little there, and keep praying, keep eating with feeding, with the word and praying.
And to that analogy, if man can't live on bread alone, but from every word that comes mouth, goba, I don't think we should skip. If we don't skip a meal, we probably shouldn't skip that feast either.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, So I try to regulate or taylor my own consistent feeding to troublesome schedules. But I don't say, okay, next week, next month. You know. It's like, by the way we're working out, you can't do today's work out tomorrow. That's right, do it today. Tomorrow's workout has his own. So anyway, maybe that's helpful.
That's very helpful, And you've been so gracious with your time. I would be remiss if I didn't ask you, if you maybe I should say it this way. I'm probably the last generation that watched the show Colombo. Did you watch an Yeah? Okay, okay. So my producer sitting in here, he says he doesn't know Colombo. Yeah, okay, he knows it, but he didn't watch it. So explain to us Colombo and how this relates to any of this.
All right, Well, now we're zooming into the area that the book covers, and it has to do with evangelism and how do we traffic in evangelism successfully in a culture that's largely really mad at Christians who are genuine followers of Jesus an important qualifier. I don't know if you know this stranger but something like sixty five percent of the people in this country self identify as Christians. Now you know that is I mean, in theological terms,
that's nonsense. I'm not putting down their own thoughts or beliefs about themselves. I'm just saying Christianity is something very particular. And if you are a follower of Jesus, remember the Christians were the disciples, were first called Christians and Antioch. That means Christians are disciples, at least that's the original sense.
Followers of jeswis discipline, followers of Jesus. That means there's a certain set of things, they believe in a certain way, they act to be faithful to crist And so the world doesn't care about all those other Christians. They care about those ones that say the same thing about the nature of reality that Jesus himself said. So that's different, and that's offensive. I mean, Jesus got himself killed for good to sake. He wasn't just this wonderful guy that
everybody thought was wonderful. That happened for about a year and a half, maybe two years into his ministry. But after that Bread of life dies, of course, John three, he was on his own. Man, they cut him loose and they were mad at him. So how do we navigate? And over the years I, as I reflected on it, I had developed certain I don't know, maneuvers or techniques
if you will, that made my job easier. But at the heart of it all and this expressed itself in what I call the game plan, a tactical game plan, was using questions to move forward.
All right.
Now, in my mind I was trying to think of a way to characterize this. It had a handle on it, so to speak, And I thought, Wow, Lieutenant Colombo of TV fame. Now TV is like a thing of a bygone era. Now you got cable, you got podcasts, you got you didn't have to have a TV. You can get your computer and watch all kinds of stuff. But TV was the place where everybody congregated, the family did
and watch these programs, you know. And there were individual individuals that overtime took iconic status, memorable people like Lucy from I Love Loosely, for example. But it turns out Lucy is the number two most recognized TV icond of all time. Lieutenant Columbus number one. And he's a guy that it was a murder mystery, and he'd come in and to the murder scene. He's wearing old trench coat. He's got a scraggly old cigar that he's smoking, and he's got a pad of paper, but it didn't have
a pen because he didn't bring one. He's got a bum a pencil off of somebody, you know, and he's scratching his head and mutter and looking around. And this guy looks stupid, but he's stupid like a fox because he's got a plan. And at some point he'll, you know, scratch has had like his deep and painful thought. And then they'll say, I don't know. There's something about this thing that bothers me. He wanted to ask you a question, so my Columbu imitation, and so he asked the question.
It works a lot better with the cigar, and that's right you from the stage. But in any event, but he asked the question, he gets information. You're very intelligent. One more thing, you know, any one more kings them to death. Question after question after question after question, and he says, look, I can't help it. It's a habit. And this is a habit Christians ought to get into. If you learn to navigate with questions. There are all kinds of advantages to that. For one, they're polite. You know,
you know you ask questions of other people. I was asking earlier about your own career and navigating that. Of course you're asking me questions, that's your job situation. But I want to find out about you and that you probably felt good about that, so that's nice. Not only that, when we ask questions, we're getting information. So now I got a lot more information about you. Now that was just a curiosity. It wasn't like I'm trying to lead
you to some spiritual end at that point. But a lot of times the information we get will help us to know where to go next. All right, we get you're getting intel. Another thing is and this is and this is really critical. Questions keep you safe. Questions keep you safe. You realize when you're asking questions, you're not giving your own view, and so your own view can't be attacked. When people Christians might start making say, well
the Bible's word of God? Really, who says who? Oh, now it's back in the Christian Maybe the Christian has an answer to that. But notice how the statement, which was a claim kind of in the face of thetic that was going to get a response. Okay, put up or shut up. Okay, But if you don't say, if you don't make a claim, if you want to talk about the Bible and say so, what's your view of the Bible, you're not making any claims about it. You're asking for their claims. So in principle, they're the ones
who are vulnerable. Now we're not going to take a listed advantage of that, but we're getting information from them. So questions keep you safe. And now here's the third thing, fourth reason that questions are really valuable, and it's manifest right here in our conversation. In this conversation between you and me, Granger, I'm doing all the work. You're just sitting there asking me questions here and there. But the conversation is completely in your control because of the questions
you ask in the driver's seat. And that's a critical quality of questions, because when you're asking questions, you're in the driver's yat of the conversation. That is, your questions will direct that conversation wherever you want it to go. Now, if you hit a dead end, you could just start David in the interview, you say, let me go this way. I'm gonna ask this question. Now, now we understand that's the nature of the interviews like this, But at the same time, the same dynamic is in play when we
are in conversations with other people. I think Christians are nervous about having conversations about Jesus. Now, I didn't say faith conversations. I don't like that phrase because the word faith is so corrupted for any good use. People think blind faith and leap of faith. So in your conversations about Jesus, it's no I forgot the direction I was going to go with that particular point. When you're having discussions, you want to find out as much as you can
about the other person's point of view. All right, you're going to do that by asking questions. Because oh and by the way, that's was the thought. Christians are sitting on the bench instead of having those conversations because they don't want to get stuck. They don't want to get challenged in a way. They don't know how to respond. It's embarrassing, it's awkward, and as far as they're concerned, they might be thinking, well, it's just going to hurt
the gospel, it won't help. But if your commitment is to using questions in a productive way, and that's what the Tactics book teaches, among a whole lot of other things. But the core of the first section is the game plan, which I call Colombo after the infamous Lieutenant Columbo. If you use those, you're going to find that you can navigate very safely and very productively in conversations, even if
you're not very clever. I promise when I just liked this last weekend and I was in Franklin, just south of you're very familiar, so and I said, I'm going to give you a game plan in the next twenty minutes after I did my preliminary stuff that is going to allow you to converse with confidence in any situation, no matter how little you know or how knowledgeable or aggressive or even obnoxious the other person happens to be.
So that's my promise. And in that case, I'm only giving the first two steps of the three step game plan. The third step is more advanced, but the first step is simple. And when you start employing even those two steps as a total novice in the not only in the use of the game plan, but as a novice, as a Christian, You're going to be amazed at how how much easier your conversations are going to be, how much safer you're going to feel, and amazingly, how much
you can accomplish in people's lives. I have a book to the tactics and book and that's I think I have it here. Yeah, it's and it's a sequel. So it really capitalizes on the third step of the game plan, which is using questions to make a point. And here's that book. It's called The Streets of Arts.
There we go.
That's great to get it right there, it's called the subtitle using questions to answer Christianity stuff has challenges. How do you use a question to answer a challenge?
Which is what Jesus did many times.
Many times, exactly right. There's over two hundred times he asked questions in the gospels. So, but in here, I have an anecdote, and I from a gal who called the radio show, so I had a recording of it. I got it all right, she said, the very first time I used the tactical approach is what happened. It was amazing, she said, Oh, what the heck, I'll just
try it. She was in a bookstore looking for a Christian book, and she was asking one of the you know, the people who worked at the store to help her find the book. And then she started using the tactical approach and using some of the initial questions. It's a great account in there about how God used that. I also have in the Street Smarts book. I talk about this waitress, this waitress in Seattle that you know I. I don't know if you know this, but most people don't.
I'm not a morning person and so you know, I take a long time to get rolling. And I got my before my first cup of coffee. I'm an atheist, you know, so one of those kinds of things. So anyway, this I did a Friday night of it all day Saturday in Seattle. I'm rolling out my robber bag. On Sunday morning at or dark thirty, I got to go to a church and preach at two services. I'm beat up, I'm tired, but I'm still trying to wake up. And I don't want to talk about Jesus. I don't want
to talk about God. I don't want to talk leave me alone. I just want my coffee.
Yeah, but this guy comes up to me.
She's way too animated for me that morning. This the waitress, Oh God, go away, I'm thinking. Then she says, you know, what are you doing here at all? And I figured to get rid of her, and I say, well, I'm going to preach out a church. I figure off. She goes, yeah, yeah, but she says, oh good, No, what's good about that? For her?
To her right right? Yeah?
So I said why, why is that good? Are you a Christian? I mean that's possible. She says, no, I'm not a Christian. And then she says I used to be a Christian, but I'm not anymore now. She says, the universe takes Caribby, and I'm thinking, huh. So I asked her, I said, how could the universe take care of you? I'm confused about that. Now, For people who don't know the tactical game plan, the very first step is asking the question what do you mean by that?
Or some variation? All right. Now, Remember I'm not trying to witness. But she says this thing, and I don't understand. So I'm saying, like, what do you mean? And she said, no, the universe is not a person. I said, well, how can it take care of you. She said, oh, well maybe God takes careby Oh okay, well that makes sense. And then she says God is the sure and I'm thinking, what does that mean? So I asked her about that.
I'm friendly, sure, you know, and she just kept going on with these kind of confused New agey kind of statements and I couldn't and finally she just gave up and left, and honest to goodness, as I was sitting there, I was thinking, in my mind, there's not a single thing that I said that had any impact on her whatsoever. She was into her own New Age world and she tried Christianity.
She's done with that.
Off she goes, you brought my breakfast, And when she brought the bill, here's what she said to me. She said, nobody has ever asked me questions about my view before. And it got me thinking. Now, if you read the book, you know this. My goal of asking these questions is not to lead people to Christ. That's the harvest. You got to have the gardening before you have the harvest. I just want a garden, and all I want to do is get them thinking. And she said that got
me thinking. Now, my question is did I want to witness to this girl. No, I didn't want a witness. Leave me alone. So here, even against my will by in almost in a knee jerk way, with my inner Columbo coming out, responding to the crazy thing she's saying to me. God still used it. That's just the first step.
It's amazing.
Yeah, and I've heard this from other people before. I tell that accountant, but that's in the Streets of March book, which goes into more detail. But well's there's lots of illustrations.
Let's put legs on this conversation and kind of bring it, bring it full circle from the question now of are you telling me that if I don't.
Believe the way you believe, I'm going to hell?
Because now you would you would you would answer that with a question now?
So yeah, okay, so we're kind of in a role play right now.
Yeah. Sure.
Now I have the thing that I explained to you before firmly in my mind, but sometimes I may get to that in a different route. And so when you said that you're telling me, I said, let me Granger, let me ask you a question in a way that is kind of what I'm saying. But what is it you think that means all right, So I think people don't understand what's going on there, and so I'm tossing it back to you.
So that's the first stay.
Yeah, this is a way of putting it.
What do you mean by that first step?
That's what do you mean? Well, yeah, it's just this is just that for I'm getting more clarification. Okay, But you asked that in a certain way because I think you have a certain understanding of what you think my view is. Even though I could say yes, strictly speaking to the question you asked, it's a distortion of my view. So I want to ask you, what is it you think my view is with regards to Jesus that I would say such a thing. And so now it's your turn.
But notice I just I just deflected it. Now if this isn't for the purpose of merely deflecting the challenge, correct, it's to try to get to the heart of the matter. And and uh, And you might say, I have no idea why you'd say such a thing like that. It sounds really arrogant to me. Okay, it sounds like you're in and everybody else's out.
Okay, So let's continue the role play.
So I say, I think that you're completely arrogant and you're narrow minded.
That's okay, that's what I think.
So I might say, how well this is? This is probably what I wouldn't be what i'd say here, but I'll just give it a little tool. How would if I agreed with you that I was arrogant and I was narrow minded? Would that change the truth of the claim I'm making about Jesus.
Let's stop. She didn't.
I would say, yeah, Well, the answer there's no, obviously, because arrogant people can be right about things right narrow minded people. So that's a change of the subject. Okay, And I might use that under different circumstances. But then i'd ask, okay, Granger, Okay, this is all about Jesus and what he did. So here's the question I want to ask you. And maybe you don't have an answer, and that's okay, But what do you think Jesus came to do? As far as you understand.
It, And he came to he was a good person, and he came to tell people good morals and how to live their life.
Okay, well he did do that. There's no question at all about that he was a good person, he did say those things. Where did you get that idea?
Though?
I'm just curious.
I just I hear other people, you know, Christians talking this way.
So have you ever read Jesus.
I know enough about Jesus to not need to read them seriously.
Okay, well on this issue, just saying here, Granger, and we're still on this issue. This is a really important question. So if you're getting your information about Jesus on this really important question from a whole bunch of other people rather than straight from the horse's mouth, do you think there's a chance you might be misunderstanding Jesus.
I think there might be a chance, But I think that the matter is I don't really see why God would use one religion above another, and so I find no need to really understand what Jesus is saying.
Okay, well, I definitely can understand how you would say that if it was just a matter of choosing a religious club. So let me try to make a parallel. What if what if you had a really bad pain in your abdomen and acute man, it's like, oh man, something's wrong, maybe it's appendicitis, And then I said, you need to a dentist.
Yeah, so that's pretty bad.
Yeah, I say, wait, what makes you think that one person should care about one doctor over another doctor? Doctors or doctors, whatever, Just go to a doctor you like, a cheap one. Whatever. But you're going to say, wait a minute, Dennis does a different thing than what I need.
Okay.
So I'm just giving you a parallel here, Granger, to help you to see that it's not so easy to say, how could God prefer one religion over another? If God's trying to accomplish something, then you have to look at what he's trying to accomplish and see if those different religions reflect that. By the way, I'm not sure about your own convictions, but a lot of people think that all religions are basically the same and they all kind of one way or another lead to God.
That's what I think.
Yeah, okay, so Christians think that Jesus is the Messiah and Jews think that he's not. Now he either is or he isn't. How can they both be right on that really important factor?
Yeah, that's a good question. You know, Mohammed is claiming the same thing. So that's why I think all religions are just false man made ideas.
Oh okay, well, now we're talking about something entirely different that their man made is because Mohammed, Christianity teaches that Jesus died and across and rose in the dead. Jews think that Jesus died and across, but he didn't rise from the dead. Mohammed taught that Jesus didn't rise from
the dead because he didn't even die in across. Now, this whole idea of the death and resurrection of Christ, you know this just because you live in America and Easter is coming up, is a big deal to Christians. This central right. So everybody can't be right on this. How about this one. I'm just talking about one idea. Muslims and Christians and Jews think that God is personal, kind of like you and I are in a certain sense.
You can talk to him, He does stuff. Now, Hindus think that God is not personal, he's kind of a force or something like that. Well, he's either personal or not personal if he exists. So if he's impersonal, the Hindus are right, and the Jews and Christians are wrong on God. And if he's personal, then they're right on God. And the Hindus are wrong, but they can all both be right, all right, So how is it that all
of these religions are basically the same? And I'll get you to God when they don't even agree on what God's like. So I'm just going to a point you made a little bit earlier, that all religions are legitimate past the God. I'm just trying to get you to think about that, so that makes sense to you.
I can understand here, mister Cochl that you are evidently you have some knowledge in this subject. And so I'm still kind of wrapping around to my first question. So why is it obviously somebody's right and somebody's wrong. You made a good point about that, okay, And why do you think you're right?
How does that? How could you say you're right and I'm wrong?
Simple answer? Jesus Jesus. And I don't mean Jesus in a book. I mean that Jesus in history, feet on the ground, all right, Jesus of Nazareth, all right, he's a guy who lived and died and then something strange happened because whom they put him in was empty three days later. And there's a whole bunch of people who said they saw him alive after he was dead, which is the basic definition of a resurrection. And then they in a certain sense of time that were willing to
sign their testimony and blood. These people are all willing to die. Now, how could they be lying? Incidentally, the points I just made about Jesus lived and he died, and the tomb was empty, and these guys say they saw him. These are facts of history. When I say facts of history, I'm not just advancing my own opinion
about this. These are the facts that virtually all historians of the era, no matter what their personal convictions acknowledge, are well attested by the historical evidence in the primary source documents that we possess. So I mean, they don't all think Jesus rose in the dead. But then we have to ask the question, what was the point of these guys saying he did if he didn't, if they didn't experience that, Because you know, lots of people die for a lie, but not if they know it's a lie.
And I'll tell you the rule about lying, Granger, and every kid knows this, all right, tell a lie that gets you something good, You don't tell a lie that gets you whipped, beaten with rods, stoned, crucified up side down, or beheaded. This is not a good lie, no, but this is what these disciples who said they saw Jesus were willing to endure. Based on their confession of seeing Jesus.
These guys weren't lying. That's so when I look at the options, and there I got Jesus, a very unique individual who I can establish some certain historical facts pretty clearly, and then I reason from those historical facts, what's the best explanation for the fact that Jesus was dead and then the tomb was empty, and then all these people were willing to on the pain of death. They didn't all die matery staffs, but lots of them did, and
they all got persecuted. We're willing to say we saw this guy, we saw him after he rose from the dead, and we're communicating this message and what this resurrection seals. And maybe the goes to your point a little bit more clearly. And I made reference to this earlier before the role play. Actually, but in any event, one of Jesus' followers wrote this that the resurrection of Christ declared with power that he was the son of God. In other words, he was God come down. Now why did he come down?
Because he cared enough about you and me, who are violators of God's law and are guilty. And I don't need to tell you that because you already know it all right. Everybody knows about themselves. And he was willing to take the punishment that is due us so that we could be forgiven. He's going to pay the penalty, He's going to take the wrap. And he did that, and then when he rose from the dead, that showed he accomplished what he was after. Now you have a choice.
You can either go with Jesus or go it alone. By the way, Jesus means forgiveness and going it alone means just the opposite justice.
I think I was just saved. I think this table was saved there.
But let me just this is a great role play, and I appreciate you going there. And notice how when I explained how I responded to that question with the Jewish audience. I have this tough in my mind, but I kind of adapted it to our circumstance and I used lots of questions and then when it got to the point where I really needed to explain I used this illustrations that I hope would make sense, but there was not a word of Christian psycho babble. And that
entire explanation true. And this is something that I think is really important in the Tactics book, as the Tactics says, watch your language. And that's what I'm talking about Christian psychobabble, because it doesn't communicate. It's just religious noise to most people, and I think the most Christians too.
And so for people listening, can you give us a few of these words what I like to call Christian ease?
Oh yeah, so what are some of these words? There's a whole category. Well, notice I didn't say saved. I didn't use the word faith. I didn't use the word believe. When I talked about my own if you will, my own the content of my faith. I talk about my convictions. If I were to say I'm impressing you or granger, I was going to challenge you. I'm not going to say receive Jesus as Lord and savior. I'm going to say I want you to trust Christ because he did something for you you don't want to have to do
for yourself. He took the punishment. And then I want you to follow Jesus and never stop.
It's great, it's so clear, practical.
Lord and Savior. Now those terms mean something, but they don't mean anything to the other guy, and they're largely stale Christian religious phrases even to us. You know, I have this whole category of pastor speak. You can talk to a pastor, you know, at the grocery store, and he's going to talk a certain way the minute he gets up on the dayas at a Sunday services, he often pastors speak and he's saying all this, Amen, brothers, Amen, brothers,
what a blessing, hallelujah, well, hallelujahs, praising God. But I mean all that other stuff. Why pastors say amen, amen, Amen, they're trying to get a rise out of the audience. Because what they're saying doesn't get a rise is out of the audience. So stop doing that. Just preach in a manner that affects the audience. Don't ask for an artificial applause. Well, on that.
Note, let me ask you one more question. So back to the role play. So I say I want to know more about this kid. Could you pray for me? What would be the contents of your short prayer with everything we said.
So, yeah, of course I might ask why would you want me to I'd be happy to pray for your grature, but why do you want me to pray? And if I don't have an answer to that, I don't know how to pray properly? Okay, So I mean I might say that, or I might just jump into it. I use that as an illustration. This is another step of colombo. What do you mean by that? What's going on there? Help me out? Notice how it's interactive, and every step
that I can get more information from you. I want to do that because it keeps you involved and it helps me understand you better. But I might say, Father, let me say, well, okay, i'll make this comment after the father. I'm praying for a granger right now, and I'm so glad that you gave us an opportunity to have this conversation. And I know there's a lot of things he's confused about, and that's okay, it's the learning process.
But I pray that the things that I shared with him today will find a place in his heart, that you will take these things that I've said and open his understanding to them so that he can benefit from your wonderful mercy and be rescued by the Lord Jesus Christ, who is his only hope. So be it.
It's beautiful, that's beautiful, So be it.
Thanks, And I'm not I'm not going to say amen anymore because you called me, so be it.
I'll occasionally look at when you say amen from the people know you're finished. It's a way of saying that. But but I don't ever say almost ever saying Jesus name amen, because praying in Jesus name doesn't mean saying in Jesus name. There's not a prayer in the New Testament that ever ends that way, and there's lots of prayers there. True, you know, it means the awareness that we go before the Father because Jesus has given us access, we're going in his name. As long as we have
that awareness, we're fine. So I don't I just usually leave that behind, you know. And now I'm from the sixties, so instead of saying aimn, sometimes I might say right on, right on, Well, you.
Have been so gracious with your time, and I appreciate you so much. I could probably listen for a couple more hours, just to listen to you talk.
So I get talk for a couple of borrowers. Maybe we can do this another time.
I wish I could be on Kirk Cameron's level where I could just send you birthday cards every year.
But maybe I'll give to someow.
He is a sweetheart. I don't get that for everybody. I don't even get that for my family, my old girls. But he hasn't done.
That for a while.
But it was just something he did and just just to encourage me as a brother, you know. And anyway, So I'm glad to have been here with you, Granger, and I am open to other conversations, so no worries.
Excellent.
Thanks for joining me on the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate all of you guys. You could help me out by rating these podcasts on tunes. If you're on YouTube, subscribe to this channel, hit that little like button and notification spell so that you never miss anytime I upload a video. Yigi