Most of us in healthcare are warm, caring people who are committed to keeping our patients safe and doing no harm. But there are some among us who do the unthinkable and betray our noble profession. On this podcast, we like to shine a light on the good and the bad. Each week, I'll be joined by another health care professional, and together we'll dive into these stories while chatting about nursing and health care along the way. I'm Tina, a registered nurse, and this is Good Nurse Bad Nurse.
Hey, everybody. This is Tina again with Good Nurse Bad Nurse. Welcome back to another episode of this podcast where we mix in some discussion about healthcare and nursing issues with a little true crime. Now, I will say for this week, I'll give you a little caveat here at the beginning. It's not exactly what you might think of when you think of true crime, but it's definitely a story that we want and need to address.
There's so many important issues, whether you are a nurse, whether you're in healthcare, it doesn't matter who you are, this could affect you or a family member. So I'm really excited to get to talk about the story that we're going to talk about. And it's not even just one story. We're going to kind of hit on some other things as well. But before we get into our stories, I want to introduce our guest hosts, because there's two of them this week, Nurse Jessica Sites and The Nurse Erica.
Yeah, you guys heard that right. I literally have this like dynamic duo on the podcast this week.
It's The Nurse Erica. I like to say The Nurse Erica. Like she's royalty. The Nurse Erica has graced our presence everybody. The Nurse Erica is here.
Oh man.
And here--
You cannot go anywhere, well I can't go anywhere with either of these people because so many people will just crowd around them. If you're around nurses, they are going to be crowding around them and you will not get to talk to them.
No, they'll talk to Erica and they'll ask her how to fix their life. I can tell you that.
They do.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, she has a lot of good advice. That's why.
--a booger in somebody's nose. That's what they'll ask me. What do you do if your fellow nurse has a booger in their nose? Whereas they're like, Erica, how do I solve all the problems of nursing?
How do I solve world peace?
Yeah.
Well, these two hilarious women and just awesome women that I just love so much, I'm so excited to have them on the podcast, they have a new podcast of their own called Nurses Uncorked. Man, you guys are going to love this podcast. I love it. I listen to it every week when it comes out. I can't wait for the next episode. They're just awesome. I love having them. I just feel like they're right there with me, and I can just listen to their conversations, and they have interesting guests on.
So, which they had a really interesting guest on from what I hear that they recorded just a little bit ago. I mean, I don't know. There was somebody that I was like, oh, wow.
Yeah. Someone that might have a podcast of their own. Perhaps.
Maybe. Maybe. I don't know.
We just recorded an episode. Yes. If you want to hear me on Nurses Uncorked talking about, well, interesting topic. Then... I don't know when it's going to release, but.
Soon.
What I'm thinking that I'm going to go with that this upcoming Tuesday actually.
I think so because it's timely.
Okay.
We took your advice, Tina. We have lots of episodes in the bank, the back burner. 'Cause she was our, I like to say our preceptor, if you will, of podcasts. She taught us to always have several episodes ready to go before you just put out one and you have nothing else. So, we actually, I could get sick for a few weeks and we could continue to put out material. That's the way I like to look at it. I don't want to get sick. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Yeah, but we owe a lot to you, Tina, for helping us.
Yes, we do. We love, we love us some, some Tina. And I love drunk Tina. We'll get into that another time. That's a whole other story.
I have not seen drunk Tina.
She's fun. She'll jump in the pool with you, I can tell you that.
No, no, no, that's not fair. Because I think I'm pretty sure somebody pulled me into the pool. Or pushed me into the pool. Pulled,
jumped, whatever.
Yeah, that was not of my own doing.
But maybe I'll get to see drunk Tina when we go on a trip together coming up next year, the three of us.
I'm sure you will.
Yeah, I'm sure.
I have only gotten to see courtroom Tina, press Tina, media interview Tina, podcast Tina. I have not seen drunk Tina.
I told Erica, I said, she's hysterical when she's, I mean, when she's drinking, she's like, really? She drinks? I was like, yeah. I'm like, Tina likes some wine. Tina does her little, occasionally, her little, she cuts loose. I'm like, she cracks me up. So, yeah, look forward to that, too. We might be on a cruise together. We'll see.
Maybe.
We'll tape our own podcast there.
Oh, that'd be fun.
Hey, we have to do that now. Absolutely, we have to do that.
Let's do it.
If you guys haven't figured it out, we are going on a cruise together next year.
Might be a nursing cruise.
Might be one that you've heard of. Might be one that you've heard of before.
Alright, I'm going to quit yapping. Tina, this is your podcast, not mine. I'm going to shut up now.
So I guess we can get started with this story. I will definitely need to do a trigger warning for this one. We'll just say there's some graphic details. It does have to do with childbirth. So if, just anybody that that pertains to, if you can think of probably just about the worst thing you can think of, if that is gonna bother you, please just skip this one. Skip to the end, and you can hear us talk about the "Good Nurse" story which is going to be our friends the nurse Jessica and Erica.
I'm not good. I'm bad.
Well, for this particular, we're going to talk about good nurse Jessica Sites for this particular episode. So I gave you the warning and I'm telling you... I feel like I do a lot of warnings at my show, but this one is particularly disturbing. It has to be talked about, though. So I know some of you probably have heard this. I know there's a lot of you that have heard it because you've been sending it to me in messages. You've been emailing me, sending me messages on social media.
I really love it when you guys do that. But one thing I didn't want to do is come on here and try to talk about it without a labor and delivery nurse because I, other than clinicals, just literally clinicals, I have no experience with it. So I feel I needed that perspective. I need somebody that's been in there.
So nurse Erica is gonna give you all the information on this podcast. She is gonna dive in and tell you all about the maneuvers and things.
I am not an L& D nurse. I am pediatrics. I think that's your expertise, your specialty, Miss Jessica.
All right.
That is definitely her specialty for sure. I'm excited to get to talk about this because there's a lot of questions that I have about it. Just a lot of questions about what should be going on here? What should have happened? Oh my gosh. Because it's very disturbing. So I know some of you have heard this story. It's been all over social media for the past few weeks. So I want to talk about it, number one, because obviously, as I said, several of you have messaged me about it.
But number two, there are some details that are particularly disturbing that I want to talk about, and it's not even the horrible part that you may think. There's, to me, as a nurse, as a professional working in a hospital at the bedside, taking care of patients, advocating for my patients, there is something particularly disturbing that went on in this case, I'm really excited to get to delve into this.
But what happened, the incident, the medical incident that happened in this case, I was so shocked to find out has actually happened several times over the past decade or so. And that's only the ones that I could find in the news. I'm sure that it's happened and it just didn't make headlines. Or maybe, my gosh, maybe the parents didn't even know. I'm telling you guys, this is, it's really unbelievable. It really is scary.
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Also, one of my really good friends is going with me so we can share expenses. You guys, even if you're just a little curious about travel nursing, go to trustedhealth.com/goodnurse and fill out a profile so you can see what kind of jobs are out there and what they pay. Go to trustedhealth.com/goodnurse and fill out a profile. Are you looking to take your career to the next level? Consider enrolling in the Doctor of Nursing Practice Program at UC Irvine.
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And of course, we'll put a link on our website and you can access it at goodnursebadnurse.com. This is the story of 20 year old Jessica Ross from Georgia in the United States. She was eagerly awaiting the arrival of her first child at Southern Regional Medical Center, but what should have been a joyous occasion quickly spiraled into an unspeakable tragedy.
A medical malpractice lawsuit filed against Dr. Tracy St. Julian and the hospital alleges that excessive force during delivery led to the decapitation of Jessica's baby. Jessica's partner Taylor Treveon Isaiah stands beside her in their pursuit of justice and answers for what happened to their baby. So as I said earlier, Jessica's story is not an isolated incident. Similar tales of childbirth gone awry emerged from different corners of the world in Baguio, which is a city in the Philippines.
A young couple, Bernabe and Amy Diaz were brimming with hope as they awaited the birth of their long awaited baby girl, Ayesa Bey May. After three painful miscarriages, the couple saw this pregnancy as a dream come true. However, their happiness was turned into tragedy when Ayesa was delivered lifeless and shockingly headless. The Bayugo General Hospital and Medical Center is under scrutiny as investigations are ongoing, attempting to unravel the cause of this horrific event.
Amy Diaz narrated the traumatic experience of seeing her baby's head forcibly pulled, an event that left her baby headless and her heart absolutely shattered. A medical intern's alleged involvement and conflicting statements have added to the complexity of this heart rending case. So I know most people that are probably listening to this are familiar with this case out of Atlanta because everyone's talking about it. I couldn't believe it when I started looking into-- this has happened before.
In this particular case, the mother says that there was an intern who had no business, no business performing. So, Jessica, can you just explain to everyone, first of all, what in the world is going on in a birth where this could possibly happen? How could this even be?
In my 21 years of labor and delivery, bedside, full time bedside labor and delivery, shoulder dystocias are one of the scariest things that a nurse, especially a physician who's ultimately responsible, can encounter. Shoulder dystocia basically is, for lack of a better way of saying it, when the shoulders don't fit. They don't fit. You get in a position that the fetal head has been delivered, but then when you go to deliver the shoulders, you can't extract the baby.
Now, for people that don't know when a baby actually is exposed to air, they start to switch to their normal circulation, which is breathing. They're not doing umbilical placental breathing. So it's basically, and I explained this on our podcast, it's like when you're doing CPR on somebody. You've got a couple minutes before you ensue oxygen deprivation, brain damage. It is a critical, critical rush to get the kid out and delivered as quickly as possible.
The cases that I have seen that have ever possibly involved a decapitation were very, very early preterm infants. I have never seen, in all my years a full term infant actually result in a shoulder dystocia that resulted in a fetal decapitation. I asked my husband who's OBGYN if he's ever been involved in anything like this. Never. My husband has never even performed a Zavanelli, which we'll get into that, in all of his years. These are critical situations that you don't want to get to.
You try to resolve them in any way, shape, or form before it happens. But in earlier preterm infants or possibly infants that already are sadly a fetal demise where they lack tone, when they try to deliver these babies, the cervix itself can kind of clamp back down around the baby. And unfortunately, with lack of tone in trying to deliver the baby, it has happened before that there has been a decapitation. I have never seen that hidden from the family.
in the few times that I've encountered that, but nor have I ever seen that on a full term baby, which makes this story very, very different in a lot of people's eyes. And it's something that is shocking and not just that, but disturbing in the way that the events end up unfolding in the days after the delivery.
Yeah, because when this happened, the doctor and the nurses that were in the room did not tell the patient what was going on. They never knew. They never knew the whole time they were there. The whole time. She wanted to see her baby. And they basically let her look at the baby through a window. If you guys can imagine, I remember standing there watching, as a nursing student, through a window, watching a cesarean section. And so I feel like it was probably some situation like that.
They were on the other side of a window and they let her see the baby and it was kind of wrapped up.
Swaddled with the head propped.
How absolutely inappropriate is that?
Well, at least where I was trained if you have a fetal demise we always offer the parents that option of seeing their baby, holding, seeing their infant, because this is the one chance that you get, the one chance to see your baby, to hold your baby. I would assume that most facilities are like that because you do need that closure. Even if somebody initially says no, we urge them, we tell them if you change your mind at any point between now and when you're discharged, we can make that happen.
We can bring the baby so that you can hold and see your infant. For this, initially, that should, not that the patient would know, but that was a red flag. The fact that she asked to see her baby and they told her you could only look through a window to see your baby was already a red flag in and of itself because it should have been disclosed to them what happened to the baby as far as there being a decapitation.
But not only that, the part that I don't understand is, any preterm infant that I've ever witnessed that has been decapitated, they make an effort to, you sew the fetal head back onto the body so that you can make it as presentable as possible so that those parents do have closure and have the opportunity, which is what I, that's the part I feel like these parents were really deprived of, was having that option.
So the fact that they didn't even do that or offer that is a huge, huge thing that needs to be investigated.
There was another case recently that I read about in Brazil earlier this year where the same thing happened. 30 weeks, mom was already hospitalized for preeclampsia. There were some prior malformations noted on ultrasound. So, perhaps some birth defects, not a healthy full term infant, but same situation where the baby was inadvertently decapitated and they apparently did not tell the parents and they swaddled the baby, gave it to parents to hold.
And then grandma removed the blanket and saw that the head was sewn on.
Which they have every right to do. You want to see their fingers, their toes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. You should.
If they had just talked to the family and said, look, unfortunately, this is horrible, but this is something that could happen in very rare cases. And unfortunately this happened. This is what we usually would do in order to give you an opportunity to spend some time with the baby. If you explain it that way, none of this would have happened had they handled this in that way.
I will have to say, though, that in this particular case with Jessica Ross, they say that they ask for a cesarean section because she was pushing for so long. So what do you think about that, Jessica? I have no idea. How does that work? Can you just ask for a C section or..?
You can, but in today's day and age, we've gone from a time period where we were doing C section overload to now they're trying to get away from so many C sections, because with any surgery, there's complications. If you can have a normal, healthy vaginal delivery, that is optimal. So it is the push. It is the trend to get physicians to do less unnecessary C sections. So I do understand the attempt to allow her to push.
There has been many times that I've had a first time mom that it's normal to push upwards of two, two and a half hours sometimes. Occasionally I've had some three. I've had a few three and a half hours. But you're pushing three hours of pushing, you really need to start assessing what is going on here. Are we actually having descent of the the fetal head. Is it that you think the head's coming down, but there's so much swelling on the head, like a cone head, that it really isn't making progress.
There's so many factors to take into account before you decide to continue to progress or whether you need to just, hey. You know, the fact that the mom asked for a C section and maybe possibly was having fatigue had pushed too long or maybe she was worried for her baby's safety, and the possible complications that can arise from an assisted delivery, which is what they ended up doing, should have been explained to the patient. Hopefully that was. That is something that will come out later.
But definitely at that point, and I don't know at what point she asked for a C section. Was it 30 minutes into pushing where it's like, come on, we really haven't given it a fair go. I don't know. If it was after three hours of pushing, and they're about to attempt an assisted delivery, and the mom doesn't want to risk. Having a horrible shoulder dystocia, and they told her no, that's a hard one to kind of go against.
But I will say that because there's been a push of this, and I've talked with my husband about this, there's a lot of pressure on physicians to attempt to-- They literally audit you. For every C section you do, they're pulling OBGYNs in and asking, was the C section necessary? Could we have... yeah, because physicians were using it to their advantage for a long time. I want to be home for dinner. I want to have dinner with my wife. It's five o'clock. Let's pretend like her cervix hasn't changed.
I've encountered that many times. So there, there was a point that they were sectioning patients unnecessarily. So I get why we're trying to kind of reverse that and get back to doing C sections that are necessary, but this very well may have been one of those times. So we'll find out what comes of that.
So in this particular case, the baby was, from all that they knew, healthy. Everything was going fine. There were no complications. They were monitoring the baby and then at some point, I guess she started pushing and all the details are not real clear because it is a lawsuit. They're not real forthcoming with all of the details, but from what is out there. It seems like she did start pushing and at some point, the baby's head came out. Is that right? And then..
From the way I've interpreted, it seems, there's been some misinformation. They have said a shoulder dystocia occurred from 8 o'clock to 11 something at night. That does not happen. I think what they mean is that she was pushing from eight until past 11 at some point where they decided to attempt an assisted delivery to try to finish delivering the infant, which is then when the shoulder dystocia occurred.
The things that alarmed me the most in this case was A, this was an experienced OB GYN, this was not a brand new OB, I think she graduated in 2000 or something, so, has been doing this for a long time, but, from what I understand, unless this is not correct. There was not a call for another physician to come in and help at any point.
There are three doctors named in this complaint. There's, I believe, six nurses and three doctors named in the complaint. So in the lawsuit that the parents are bringing, they're named. And so I don't know what that looked like. Was one a resident and... who knows?
Or were these three physicians in a group of physicians?
Possibly.
And in an actual group, and they're suing the entire group of physicians, and I could be wrong. I'm not saying what I'm saying is 100%. But from what I have heard is that she attempted the assisted delivery. I believe it was a vacuum assistance. That was not stated by the patient's attorney. But from what I'm interpreting, that's usually what they try to do. I've talked with nurse Erica about this multiple times in that there's a lot of details that are missing.
Were they trying to do a vacuum delivery and the suction kept popping off? These are things that we look for. Was there any change in the fetal descent? Was it that they were pulling and then the kid would go right back up?
Or was it forceps? Do they still use forceps?
Occasionally, yes. Those are still available. A lot of the, I don't want to say, old school physicians are very well versed in forceps and know how to use them magically. And they're amazing. But a lot of physicians, it's not their go to. I mean, it puts a lot of... I mean, it's like salad tongs. You're putting clamping like on each side of the baby's head unless you really are good at it, it's not necessarily a physician's go to.
It could be what she used, but I don't think from what I've read and what I've seen that that was the case I'm assuming.
They do claim that there was damage done to the baby's, facial bones and the head, I think.
Well, that in and of itself can be from, okay, so if you think about it, a vacuum is obviously going to cause some cerebral swelling because you're pulling on the top of the baby's head. But if you get to that point, you get to the point that the baby's neck is now turtling and the head is out, but the rest of the body is not. Like I said, it's a minute. It's like CPR. Okay, we have minutes here. We got to get this kid out. You try different maneuvers to resolve the shoulder dystocia.
You start from the basics and you work your way up, which I'm hoping that that's what they did. I would assume. You lay the head of the bed of the mom. Lay completely flat to allow for more room in the pelvis. You bring the mom's leg, which is called McRoberts maneuver. You bring her legs way back like you're trying to open the pelvis as much you can.
If that doesn't resolve it, the physician will call usually for suprapubic pressure where a nurse jumps on the abdomen with her fist and literally from above where the mom's bladder is, and I've done this many times you literally Straddle the mother you put your butt in her face. I know it sounds... It's hard. It's horrible. I've had to say quickly. I have to jump on top of you. This is for your baby, and there's no time.
You jump on top, you straddle, and if you have a good physician, they will communicate with the nurse, and they'll say, I'm trying to rotate the right shoulder. I'm trying to rotate the left shoulder, so you know where to put the majority of pressure on top of to get that-- basically you're trying to get the-- So, if that doesn't all work, they can try other things rotating the baby manually to try to get it to resolve.
They can break the baby's clavicle to I mean, at that point, you either have a dead baby or you have a kid with a broken clavicle. I would take a broken bone over brain damage or or over severe nerve damage where they can't move their arm for the rest of their life. So, that's a choice. I have also heard in some other countries, I don't think, I've never heard of it done here, but there have been physicians that go in with a saw and saw the mother's pubic bone to get the kid out.
Yes, I don't think there's a name for that maneuver, but that, and then the one of the last. Options is what's called the Zavanelli, which is what I was talking about earlier. And that's when you've done everything and that kid is stuck. Their head is out. You can't get it out. It's not coming out and this kid is going to die. You attempt to rotate and push the kid back up into the abdomen to go for a stat C section, which is what I'm hearing happened.
But that means that they have already breathed air.
They should have tried. Right? Yeah, they've already switched to--
So you have like seconds because you're gonna inevitably have hypoxia, right? Like you have to--
When I'm telling you, I've had shoulder dystocias that last a minute. It feels like it's been an hour. It is the slowest moving of time. You can not even imagine and the force that is put on these kids' heads is extreme.
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I talked with Erica about this on our other podcast, but kids are designed to withstand that. There is a certain amount of birth trauma when we help assist a baby and we pull down and lift them up. I mean, they're stretchy, they're flexible, they're meant to do that to a certain extent, but now you get them. in a place that they're locked and you can't easily pull down and deliver them.
And yes, there is going to be bruising at a minimum, like I was saying, a broken bone, gosh, unfortunately, irreversible nerve damage, oxygen deprivation, all these things can be possibilities, but you try all of this and nothing works. There is nothing else you can do but attempt to push the kid back up and go for a stat C section. Now, what I can't understand is where did that decapitation occur? If the kid was decapitated during delivery, right? The head would have come off.
The complaint lists excessive traction. from the doctor.
Of course, there's excessive traction. I'm sure that there probably was excessive traction, but, and there was probably a lot of things that in hindsight she should have done differently. I can't wait to hear was other physicians called into the room. I believe there was not from what I've read. That needed to happen. B, I'm sure there was excessive traction because you're thinking this kid is going to be dead.
And if I don't get this kid out right now, some way, shape, or form, I mean, who knows? Her adrenaline may have been so high, this physician, because she's never been in this bad of a position before. She could have applied excessive strength, traction, compression on the head to get it out. I mean. If you think about it, we're pulling, we're pushing, we're maneuvering. I mean, like I was saying, there's flexibility, but I mean, there's only so much flexibility that a kid can have.
And it's really hard for me to have an understanding, though. I personally, and I could be very wrong. I do not think the decapitation occurred during the delivery. I think it happened in the C section.
Really? So how would that have happened?
I think that they went in for a stat C section and then the kid was so wedged that when they tried to take it out of the abdomen, they could not get it out the other way either. And my belief is that, if you look at the length of time, we call it decision to incision. Decision to section or when the shoulder dystocia happened, okay, to the time that the kid was actually... The incision happened and they tried to deliver, it appears it was at least 15 minutes, I believe.
Erica, you can correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, from the notes and what I've heard, what I think happened is that they went for the stat C section, could not get it out from the abdomen, realized that the kid was already gone, and had to make a decision at that point. We've lost the kid. Maybe mom was bleeding. Maybe the uterus was boggy. They, at that point, it was like switch from we tried to save the baby. Now we got to take care of mom. And that would be my thinking.
I could be completely wrong. I'm very curious to find out. Those are just, that is not factual. That is, I'm just putting that out there. As an L& D nurse, that would be my thoughts of what--
How is the head delivered? Do you know, did they reveal how the baby--?
Vaginally.
That's what I was thinking. So that goes along with what you said, Jessica.
From all of my years of experience that is the only thing that makes sense in my mind because the rest of it doesn't.
Is it possible that the decapitation happened while trying the vaginal delivery and then they still couldn't get the... Once that happened, the rest of the baby, they, you know, because of this, whatever problem was keeping the baby from coming out was still there. So then she went ahead and did a C section, but didn't tell. Is that possible or..?
That would seem so barbaric to put-- and the fact that it was a stat C section if the head has already been removed and you know obviously the baby is gone. What is the emergency anymore?
Yeah, you would think you would at least tell the mother...
We're going back now. We need to go quickly, but they were acting like this was still in an effort to save.
So it goes along. Yeah, exactly what you said seems to be the only thing that makes sense.
That's what makes sense to me. And even, I've asked my husband and he thinks the same thing. Envision it. A kid's head is out. It is you're seeing the head. Okay. You've pulled so much traction on it and cause so much damage that it severs the head. Where is it going to go? It would come out right then and there in the room. I know, I'm sorry that I know that that sounds horrible.
Is there any way that once the baby's head is out, and as you said earlier, then once that baby's head is out, they start taking in air and breathing, like we do, rather than--
They're not taking in adequate air. They're strangulated.
Oh.
They're being strangulated.
It's not like they're actually breathing. But they're trying to.
It's not like they're comfortably like, no, I wish.
So she wouldn't have left the head exposed on purpose.
No, no, absolutely not. There is never a safe scenario that the head is delivered and the kid's just breathing. No, that's impossible. It is that, it's that the baby now is switching its circulation over to closing its heart valves to trying to breathe air and it cannot take in oxygen because it's literally being strangulated. So, no, that's an impossibility. That wouldn't work, or she'd be a complete idiot. And I'm sure that that's not the case after 23 years.
She said she's, and she's experienced. She's been doing this for a long time. I'm sure she, as you said probably most likely tried to push the baby back up in there, but it was still wedged.
That's what I, personally, that's what I think happened. There are many times that we have had this where you don't, you can't get, not that you've done a Zavanelli where you push it back in, but you've pushed so long and the kid's not coming out and they decide to do a C section, right? And they go in and try to deliver the baby and they can't. And so they'll call for a nurse to go in sterilely under the gown on the operating table. And we go in vaginally and push.
The kid, the kid's head up because it's so wedged that the doctor can't get the kid out. So, that happens even in the best of circumstances, even when you've pushed for a long time and it's... Just think of it. It's like going through a funnel. The kid's head is coning and coning and it's so tight in there that the doctor can't get his hand in there to get it up out of the abdomen. So we go in and push and you literally, you meet the doctor's hand inside, which is weird.
I mean, it's kind of a weird feeling, but you push up to help dislocate the head from that wedging and get the kid out. So what if all of these events occurred and they tried to push up and no matter what they did, then they still couldn't get the kid out and knew it was too late. Then what do you do? How do you then, you got to do something, right? I mean, the uterus has to contract down. You've got the placenta probably is detaching at this point.
I mean we have moms that hemorrhage from just a little clot being stuck in their uterus that can't clamp down Imagine having it--
At this point, you're worrying about the mother's.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And in that case, if that's what happened, she made the right call at that point. Now, what led up to this may have had a lot of mistakes along the way, and it's gonna be really, really, really interesting to find out what...
There's so much that we don't know and we're only hearing one side, of course, because now there's going to be litigation. So we're only hearing from the attorney representing the parents.
Well, and the one small statement the hospital made.
Yeah, which is that they're denying any wrongdoing, of course.
Because they're saying that the physician is not employed by the hospital, which is--
But that's standard. That's standard.
That's just how it is. And I feel like the media, as they do with all sorts of issues in healthcare, and probably all kinds of... Probably every type of story that they do, they don't know, they don't know anything about healthcare most of the time, so they have no idea what's normal, and let's be real, the sensationalization of a decapitated baby during childbirth, they're gonna fixate on that, try to really, oh my gosh.
A baby was decapitated and make it seem as though that the doctor did something malicious.
I know and it's not that I'm trying, like what you're saying, I'm not trying to support the physician, but I can see the other side, and we're not hearing the other side of events yet, at this point, and it does it sounds awful. It sounds absolutely awful, but there possibly could be a different side to this that maybe we haven't heard yet or that we're not understanding.
Maybe there's other things, maybe, like I was saying, she asked for a C section 10 minutes into pushing, 15 minutes into pushing, who knows? And these are all going to be details that will come out, but the aftermath, I don't know how that's explainable.
Hmm. Yeah. There's no denying that. They did not report this to the county medical examiner. That's required by law, you know?
That right there, I don't see how regardless of maybe they followed the best case scenario for a vaginal delivery and it had catastrophic events that were unavoidable, maybe.
But to not tell the parents of what actually happened to their 37 week healthy baby when they came into the hospital to not share that information to not allow them the opportunity to hold their baby, see their baby and have an understanding and to have to hear that from the funeral home is disgusting, in my opinion, absolutely.
And, of course, the funeral home didn't know that the parents didn't know, so you can imagine the way in which it may have been presented would have been even more appalling, you know?
They probably were like, because of the way the baby's head was decapitated...
We can't do an open casket. Yeah.
And they come to find out, they're like, I don't know what you're talking about.
And for that to be the way that they found out.
So traumatizing.
Inexcusable. Absolutely inexcusable.
And that's what I'm talking about. You know, at the beginning of the podcast, I kind of alluded to this, that they're, as horrifying as it is that what actually happened in, let's be real, in healthcare, we, all of us, I've worked in PC, I worked in CV ICU. I've seen some horrible, horrible things that people that aren't in healthcare, people that aren't in an ICU situation would never see, would have no idea that this stuff goes on.
And I don't want them to, I don't want them to have to know this. If it's them, if it's their family member that's going through it, then they must know, you have to know, you can't keep that from them, but if you don't need to know, then you just don't want to know some of the stuff that Jessica has seen, some of the stuff that Nurse Erica has seen, and you just don't need to, but that doesn't mean you lie to people.
I have heard in statements that there was a period of time that the family did not want to see that physician because they were traumatized, and I understand that, okay. Or maybe they wanted to see nobody associated with that practice. Okay, that's a possibility as well. That patient has to be seen by some sort of physician. That news needed to be delivered to them regardless of who the physician was.
If they called upon a hospitalist or another group to go in and assess the patient prior to discharge or prior or after the C section, that news needed to be delivered hands down by no matter who it was. I don't care if she refused to see that doctor. It doesn't matter.
It did not have to come from her, and that patient has every right to refuse to have that doctor care for her anymore, but somebody dropped the ball, and somebody needed to tell this poor woman and her partner what happened to their baby. They deserve that. Absolutely.
The thing is that horrible things can happen. This is unfortunately, it's extremely rare, as Jessica told us, it's extremely rare, but it is something awful that can happen and it's incredibly traumatizing for the parents to know this. And there have been stories, there's a story from a 19 year old in South Africa. The exact sort of, well, similar thing happened where her baby was decapitated during childbirth, and she was basically, they're saying the hospital covered it up.
Did not, were trying to, you know... Well, they sewed the baby's head this is the one you were talking about, I believe. They sewed the baby's head back on, but they didn't tell him. If sewing their head back on, if that's something that's typical, if that's something that's an option, then you deliver that information in a professional way. You say, here are your options. We would totally understand if you just maybe didn't want to see the baby.
Or if you don't want to unwrap the baby, just so that they know what to expect.
They deserve that transparency. They deserve that honesty. They definitely don't deserve to be further traumatized by being lied to and then it coming out in this horrific way.
Holding their baby was taken away from them. That is, is--
That implies cover up right there.
Yeah. Oh, and they also, didn't they try to get them to go to cremate the baby?
Yes. The parents requested an autopsy and they were allegedly told, you do not qualify for the free autopsy, which I'm sure that they did in reality, but yeah, they were then urged to cremate, which of course just covers up evidence, and then imagine the poor funeral home that receives the head and the body with no knowledge.
I don't think this doctor had malicious intent, did not go in there with the anticipation of, I want to remove a baby's head and decapitate it. I mean, was there malpractice? Was there things that the doctor did wrong? Possibly, absolutely, maybe. I don't want to be
Definitely unethical.
Yeah, I just don't, at least in this doctor's defense somewhat, would like to put that out there. And maybe it's because I have a husband that's an OBGYN. Physicians do not go into it wanting to ever hurt a baby. I know that in my heart of hearts I feel that was not this physician's intent. Now, she may not have followed protocols procedures appropriately and may have stepped way out of line. And for that, there's going to be consequences, but I don't think this is a case of an evil physician.
You know what I'm trying to say? I think there's a different--
Some bad judgment. And then horrible judgment. Horrible judgment, and giving absolute best case scenario that they had the patient's best interest in mind. It is not appropriate for you to somehow take it upon yourself to decide that she can't handle the truth of what happened.
That's not her choice.
That it's better for her. No, it isn't. So, best case scenario that the physician said, there's no point in telling them this. It's not going to not going to change anything. And it's just going to be traumatizing. No, that is not appropriate. If that in fact was-- to me, that's pretty much the best case scenario as far as giving her the benefit of the doubt, because everything else beyond that is just like, well, I'm afraid that it'll-- Did we lose Erica?
Possibly. They almost had it where the family wouldn't have found out. They were that close.
It was so close. If they had chosen to cremate the baby, would have never known. If the funeral director had just assumed that they knew and didn't even, for whatever reason, just chose to handle things or just didn't even mention that detail, didn't go there, just said, you know, yeah, they would have... No, and that's my point.
Because in bringing up these, this happened in Scotland, this happened in Brazil, this happened in South Africa, it's happened, there's been multiple cases of this happening over the past decade, and that's just the ones that made it into the news. So, is this something that's happened more frequently that the parents just don't know because this is something that some physicians do? But the thing is, there's more than a physician in that room.
And that is really the thing that I really wanted to kind of bring out of this is. We, as nurses, no matter where, who our patients are in whatever setting we're working in, you are professional. You have a license. You worked hard for that license. You are bound by your scope of practice by what-- you are an advocate for that patient. It is one of the duties that you are bound by. If you are not willing to stand up to a physician, I don't care how arrogant they are.
I don't care how they act like they are the boss and they are the god of the room and that they-- No, that isn't true. They are not the boss. They're human beings, they're your colleagues, they have their role, but your role is to advocate for that patient. And if they are doing something that you know is wrong, unethical, you know, wrong medically.
Like you were saying that there are nurses being named in this as well as having...
There are six nurses named and they're being accused of failing to advocate for the patient and the infant of gross negligence and of not following proper procedures for the shoulder dystocia. And six nurses, I believe. So that really makes you wonder what happened in there.
Well, it at least makes me feel better knowing because when you have a possibility of something that horrific you get all hands on deck. You call in every possible nurse that is free.
You get them into that room because you're going to need help, and that's why I'm assuming there were six nurses implicated because there's probably six RNs that were there, but you do everything, you have neonatology there, you have NICU there, you have anesthesia at the bedside, you get the charge nurse there, you have at least a few other extra nurses because, I mean, imagine it, if the main RN is straddled on top of the mother, you need a million other hands to help with everything else.
You need somebody on each leg pushing the leg back. You need somebody to assist NICU and the neonatology. So that's where I'm thinking that these six nurses came from, or nurses that were there to help. And who knows? I mean, I will say, though, if you ever have that little voice in your head that this isn't right, something is wrong, speak up. Get a charge nurse in the room, get your AOD in the room, get, who cares, call up to the chief medical officer.
Whatever you have to do, it's your license on the line, it's you that you have to protect, it's your patient you have to protect. Bottom line, don't ever feel like somebody can intimidate you. Don't ever feel like the doctor said we don't need to do that, so, and they barked at me, 'cause it can be intimidating.
But that's a problem in nursing, is that nurses are intimidated, and I have zero patience for a nurse that does not have courage to challenge something that they think is not right. There's no excuse for that. You're in the wrong profession if you cannot simply challenge a physician, because that's quite literally our job when the situation calls for it.
And it's awkward. I'm not going to, you know, we've all, it's rough. I've had doctors that are madder at me. Then they want to spit nails at me. They're so mad at me. I mean...
Yeah. I have, too. And you have to have confidence and you have to be sure of yourself because I think a lot of nurses are not, they don't have that.
And sometimes you need to make threats. I've had to say, look, I'm gonna give you five minutes. Either you're calling the attending or I am, or either I'm calling the medical director or you are, but someone's calling. So what are you gonna do?
But I will tell you, these patients do look at the doctor like they're God. They do. A lot of them do. And what they say, they see it as the holy grail. I've had before where a physician will call a section because, and I know because of their history, he wants to go home. It's 4:35.
And so what do you do then?
I have multiple times, as soon as the physician left the room, I have said to her, you tell me you're feeling pressure, right? And you need me to check you. Do you feel pressure? And they get it. They understand. And then I will go behind and check the patient to try to confirm what the doctor is saying. There has been many times that they're, the doctor says they haven't changed their cervix, they're still six, and they're complete and ready to push.
But the doctor wants to get the F out of there, okay? So you try to advocate for your patient. I've gotten into head to head with them. I've called the doctor back in and said, she felt pressure. I just checked her. She's complete. They go and check them and then they say, no, I don't know what you're feeling. There's cervix all the way around the head. Nope. We're going back for a section. And there's nothing you can do.
You try, you tell your charge nurse, and ultimately, a lot of times, you fight it and you don't win, but all you can do is try, you can try your hardest, but if the physician goes along with what the doctor is saying, I mean, if the patient goes along with what the doctor is saying, and ultimately they they consent and they say yes, you're stuck. There's unless they can--
And we don't really know what happened in this case. We don't know. I do believe that sometimes in these lawsuits, they will include everybody. The nurses, they're gonna-- anybody that was there anybody they can possibly include because what they want is for those people who are kind of accessory people who maybe didn't really do anything, but they're scared. They're afraid because they're being sued.
Then they can turn them into witnesses and they will be more willing to talk and say what really happened because they're afraid they're going to get sued. So then they're a little bit freer with their words. Maybe
Here's another thing to think about. Is there a small chance that this patient did not want that doctor or her practice to ever step foot in her room? But the doctors that were covering to discharge her dropped the ball, and maybe they didn't feel like they should be the ones having to deliver that information. That is another possibility. Still wrong. Still wrong. Still unacceptable. There was maybe a miscommunication, but is that a possibility? Very well could be. Who knows?
Maybe the situation was so awful that everybody just kept passing the buck. And things slipped through the cracks. Maybe they didn't want anything to do with that doctor, and so at that point, the doctor was like, okay, there's nothing I can do. There was never an order. The physician never went in because they were told to stay away, the head was never sewn back on, the nurses don't know what to do, they want to see the baby, but the head isn't attached, what do I do?
I mean, there's so, I'm just saying, there's so many factors into what happened that nobody frickin knows. And, it's going to come out. I mean, this is stuff that is absolutely...
It'll come out eventually in the lawsuit, unless they settle. And then they... Part of the agreement is to...
And then we never get to know.
And we never know, which hopefully that isn't what happens because that's when that happens, it shuts everyone up, and then change doesn't happen because once the details come out, and where everyone's talking about it, that's when the hospitals have to change policies and doctors have to change what they do, and everyone changes what they do.
Well, our hearts really go out to these families and all the families who've suffered any kind of horrible, heartbreaking loss during a time that should be one of the happiest times of your life. And we want to make sure that their stories serve as a call for systemic change and ensure that childbirth becomes a safe and cherished experience for everyone as much as possible, and that the pain that these families endure is acknowledged and validated.
So as investigations, lawsuits, and heart wrenching legal battles ensue, these accounts demand an urgent reckoning with the flaws within our medical systems and the need for transparency, accountability, and empathy. My gosh, that was awful.
I know. It's a rough one. That's a rough one.
I don't know.
That's heavy. That's heavy.
I do a lot of these stories, obviously every week, and I've never... I've cried a few times, but I'm emotional.
I know. I've welled up with tears several times.
It's unimaginable.
It's horrible.
It's supposed to be. And majority of the time--
Especially when it's not your specialty.
But when it goes bad, it goes bad. And that's the hard part about L and D is that it's usually amazing and that's why we love it. But when things go wrong, it's usually really wrong. And this one was really wrong. Yeah, just as absolutely heartbreaking for everybody. Sad.
So I have to tell you guys about an experience I had with a nursing student. So, you know I've been doing travel nursing. Well, this hospital where I'm at has a lot of LPN students doing their clinicals there. So, one of them was following me around one day and she noticed my stethoscope. And of course, y'all know the EKO technology company that sponsors our podcast. They teamed up with Littmann to make the stethoscopes to beat all stethoscopes. The 3M Littmann Core Digital Stethoscope.
And this is the one that I use now. So she said, "Oh my gosh, I've been wanting to try one of those." So of course I let her use it and she just could not stop talking about it for the rest of the shift. It was so cute. She was like, "You know, I can't hear anything with my normal stethoscope because I have tinnitus." And so she was so excited because she could actually hear what heart sounds were supposed to sound like. She said, "I'm going to ask for one of these for graduation."
And I was like, "Yeah, you definitely should." So just so you know. The EKO technology that makes the stethoscope so amazing, you can enable it with a flip of a switch, you can turn it on and off, it has active noise cancellation up to 40 times amplification, wireless auscultation using Bluetooth technology, it connects with EKO's free app and software. So that you can visualize, record, share, live stream, analyze heart sounds, lung sounds, and whatever body sounds you want to listen to.
So you can go to ekohealth.Com and use the promo code "GNBN" to get 50 off your order. And that's echo is spelled E-K-O, by the way. So it's ekohealth.Com and use the "GNBN" promo code to get 50 off your order. I also wanted to remind you that if you're interested in travel nursing, to go to trustedhealth.com/goodnurse and fill out a profile so you can see what kind of jobs are out there, and you can also see what they pay, the stipend, the hourly rate, all of that.
I'm a travel nurse now with Trusted Health and I absolutely love working for them. So go to trustedhealth.com. Be sure and put forward slash "goodnurse" so that they'll know that we sent you there, and fill out a profile today. If you're like me and you don't want ads interrupting your podcast flow, you can access our episodes ad free just by becoming a patron. You can also have access to bonus material, like episodes being released early.
The video footage of me and my guests recording the episode and a brand new podcast that's offered exclusively to our Patreon subscribers called Breakroom Conversations. Your support will really help us to keep the podcast running smoothly. To learn more, just head on over to our website, goodnursebadnurse.com and click the link to become a patron. Well, I guess we can get into our "Good Nurse" story, which is gonna be good nurses.
We're gonna talk about nurse Jessica Sites and The Nurse Erica and their podcast they're doing. I just wanna hear all about what you guys are doing, 'cause lemme tell you. These two, oh my gosh, they're advocacy knows no bounds. They're always advocating for you and me as nurses and bringing awareness to so many different issues. Jessica has her way, her funny, hilarious way. She also brings just comic relief.
Obviously, sometimes this stuff gets so dark, when we're scrolling through social media. So it's so funny to see Jessica lying in a casket and then her friend, she's also the friend over her. That's probably my favorite one. I love it so much. It's always hysterical whenever I see it come through.
I do love this. I love the funeral comedy.
They're so funny. Oh my gosh.
My favorite one is when the patient, I mean the nurse has passed away and then the manager's still trying to get her to get up.
You're gonna be in for your shift, though, right?
I mean manager Christine and then the poor nurse who's passed away whacks her in the head with her flowers.
So I know you guys know this, but nurse Jessica Sites has her own persona. She has her, she is just social media celebrity when it comes to nursing. And I feel like... I know you guys know who she is, but that's her thing. She's a comedian. She's so hilarious. She does bring this light into all this darkness that-- Some social media can get pretty dark sometimes because we are trying to talk about things that are happening. So it's really nice to have that.
But she also has moments where she's funny. Also talking about these serious topics and bringing awareness to them and the two of you. So nurse The Nurse Erica, I know that you guys know her as well.
Hundreds of thousands of followers, but she is a huge advocate for unions, for nursing unions, for nurse to patient ratio, safe nurse to patient ratios, and goes all over to these, to strikes, and supports nurses and a very difficult time where they're trying to advocate for themselves and their patients. And the two of you recently went to a strike together.
Yeah. My first strike.
What all are you guys doing? Tell everybody about your podcast.
I drug Jessica to her first strike. We went to Rochester, New York. For Rochester General Hospital, the nurses went on strike for a couple of days and we were lucky enough to be able to go out there and support them and raise awareness. We did not get to see Scabby the Rat. That is the one regret.
That's okay. I'll see him again.
Other than that, I think we had a great time. What did you think?
I'm hooked on strikes. I'm a strike junkie. Like I told Erica, not that I want there to have to be a reason for nurses to strike, but I love when nurses come together.
Yeah, it's amazing.
Nurses can either tear each other down and be catty and it's awful, but when they come together and build each other up, there's nothing like it. There's nothing it's amazing. There's such a power in it. I felt the energy. It was absolutely freaking amazing, but what I want to say is that I myself I do a lot of comedy. I bring awareness to, with humor, to the things that are wrong in nursing. That's pretty much my ammo, and I call out administration and CEOs, but I'm not working bedside.
Nurse Erica is still in a nursing position of some sort, and still advocates and still says what most people are scared to say, which speaks absolute volumes because it is a very, very hard thing to still be working and to be able to voice exactly what's going on, which is why I came up with this crazy concept, and I called her one day and I said, what if we do a podcast like you bring, you know all the hoopla, all the facts and the nursing and whatnot.
And I can bring some levity and some comedy to it and we, I don't know, try to throw a podcast.
Make a cocktail out of it.
That's exactly what was our premise. Yes. Nursing news with nursing comedy and make a cocktail out of it. And that's kind of how this started. And I've been having a blast doing it. I love it. Honestly. I really, really enjoy doing the podcast. It's something new. It's learning, but it's amazing. It's yeah, I'm having a lot of--
we're having such a good time. We don't know what the hell we're doing, but every week we know a little bit more, just a little bit. And with Tina's help, you have been a great support and helping us through this process because it is so different than social media. We're used to, for example, the kind of views and numbers that we get on, say, TikTok or Facebook or Instagram.
And when we see these little numbers on podcasts, we thought we were failing, we thought we sucked, and then you had to tell us, Tina, no, you're like, you're doing great.
You were like, what? Y'all are well on your way. I was like, we are?
There are so many podcasts out there. Especially once the pandemic hit and everybody started a stinking podcast, it seems like. A lot of those fade away. That's what happens with podcasts is people will think I want to start a podcast and it sounds like fun, and then they start doing it and they realize, oh, this is a lot of work. And then they quit. So, yeah, you have to have staying power. You have to be passionate about what you're talking about. You have to enjoy it. You have to have fun.
But there's some work that has to go into it. But there's work that goes into what you guys do, too, with the social media. So you understand that. You have to have that work ethic, but then make it fun and enjoyable. And this is what, to me, makes it fun for me is getting to connect with other nurses, other nurse creators.
Oh, I love it. I absolutely love-- some of my favorite episodes so far are when we have guests on aside from me and Erica's strike podcast, the funniest podcast ever. I've listened to that one at least seven or eight times because I belly laugh every time because it's hilarious. It is to me. I've never laughed so hard I haven't laughed that hard in a long long time to the point that my stomach hurt. Seriously it was a absolute great time.
I had some-- and if I'm doing something and having fun doing it, that's the best of both worlds, you know, I mean...
And now we're looking forward to another, hopefully we'll go on another trip together in the future, maybe another strike, who knows, who knows.
Or a cruise, like we were saying earlier.
Or a cruise. Yeah, the three of us.
With the lovely Tina on a cruise, that's gonna, yeah, more, more group podcasts to come from the three of us possibly.
I'm so excited.
I know, it's gonna be a blast.
Well, you guys, so tell them how to find your podcast.
Oh, we are on Spotify. Nurses Uncorked on Spotify, Apple, Google, iHeart, basically everywhere.
We do not have "the" in front of any of it. There is no, The Nurses Uncorked. It's just. It's just...
She will never let this go.
I seriously have to pick on her. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to add it The Nurses Uncorked, but we just we opted-- everything's just Nurses Uncorked. I'm teasing her, but you can find us Facebook, Tik Tok, Instagram all of those. Follow us. Send us your problem anonymously if you want and we'll discuss it on an upcoming podcast.
Every week.
Yeah.
Yeah. One of the neat things that they do.
We answer one every week.
Yeah. And their episode is like, while they're talking about a current kind of a current event or something going on, a story, they kind of take a break in the middle and will address a listener, one of their follower's issue that's messaged them and asked a question. So I think that in and of itself really stirs up great conversation. Really. Look, these two ladies are two very experienced nurses and they've just been through it. They know what you're going through. They have excellent advice.
They're so wise. They're just wonderful. So they're, if you do have a problem, a question, I think they'd be perfect for you to... But listen to their podcast, Nurses Uncorked. Go on, subscribe. You guys are supposed to be subscribing to me. I think you are, but I'm supposed to say that. I always forget. I never promote my own.
Subscribe to Good Nurse Bad Nurse, you guys. If you don't hit that subscribe button, it doesn't cost money. Do you know people think it costs money, Tina? I've had people message me and they say, I can't afford to subscribe. I'm like...
Oh, because they think it's like a Patreon or something like that. Yeah. But really it's almost like following. They use different words for different things and yeah, it's just following. It's just that just means that--
You get notified when our podcasts come out basically.
And whenever you go on to the app, your podcast will be kind of first and foremost like any new podcast because the ones that I subscribe to that. I'm gonna see those whenever I go to listen to a podcast.
You can sign up for automatic downloads whenever a new podcast comes out.
So you don't miss anything. And I also want to remind you guys that we are kind of vamping up our Patreon account for Good Nurse Bad Nurse. We are starting a new podcast that's just for our Patreon followers. That is called Breakroom Conversations, where I just have basically just conversations about different topics, kind of hot topics or whatever. Really could be just about anything.
Sometimes it'll just be about me talking to another nurse that does some very interesting specialty, like some very kind of obscure, something that, I didn't know that was a nursing job. That kind of thing. But you guys can go onto our website at goodnursebadnurse.com and become a Patreon. I think it's like $2 a month or something like that. I guess that's it. Thank you guys for coming on the show.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you for having us.
And of course, I have to remind you before I leave that even if you're a bad girl or a bad boy, be a good nurse.
Like Nurse Erica.
And Nurse Jessica.
Thank you, Tina.