You might notice we're not in our typical studio and that is because I am in the city of Toronto. And while I was here, I just could not pass up the opportunity to talk to author Ashley Audrain. And let me just say what this conversation is not going to be about. This conversation is not along the theme of, oh, motherhood. Enjoy every moment. Right? Right. That is not what we will talk about.
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And so... What led you to start writing? Thank you for having me, first of all. really a thrill to chat with you so I you know I'd always wanted to be a writer I was doing something completely different with my life I was working in public relations and You know, I think when it comes down to what to write about, like what to spark the initiative to write, for me, that was motherhood. And I...
had always sort of had this fascination with motherhood long before I decided to have children myself. I remember being younger and sort of looking at the mothers around me, you know, my own mom and my aunts and the mothers of my friends. And really having this awareness that it can't be exactly what it looks like. It always felt like there was a performative aspect to it. Even as a young girl, I remember thinking that. And I remember thinking, why do women do this?
You know, why do women become mothers and why do they want to and what does it really feel like? So I'd always been quite fascinated and went into motherhood myself with a lot of trepidation. wasn't sure if I was going to like it or if it would be for me or what it would be like but you know as we know life happens and you're in a relationship and we decided it was you know we were going to do this we're going to have a baby and we're lucky to be able to
And then everything sort of went fine for the first, you know, fine pregnancy and fine for the first two weeks. And then first two weeks after my son was born. And then when he was two weeks old, he became... very very ill like overnight almost it was you know he he he one morning just looked gravely ill and we rushed him to the emergency room at the Children's Hospital here in Toronto. And they took him right away and we could tell something was very, very wrong.
soon after that he was diagnosed with like a serious chronic illness that eventually we knew he needed an organ transplant so it was it was it was I mean, that really just rocked us, you know, like really, as we know, motherhood to begin with is such a huge life change with so much emotion.
And so much going on. And then to learn two weeks in that you have a child that is that ill, you know, and that your whole his whole life is going to, you know, this is going to be a part of him and us and our family forever. was just was so heavy and it was so much. And I remember at the time thinking, you know, you went through all kinds of emotions, of course, like, you know, scared and sad and worried and guilt and all of those things.
But as the weeks and months sort of unfolded and we were living at the children's hospital and our lives were so all of a sudden so medicalized, I remember like really clocking this feeling of disappointment. As mothers, the one thing we are not supposed to feel is disappointed.
You know, you are only supposed to be grateful and you are only supposed to see this as a gift and you know all of those feelings were sort of taught to have And while I loved and connected with this little boy, with this baby, like right away, I was just I had such conflicting feelings about what motherhood was for me and what that was going to be like. It looked and felt nothing like what society had told me it would feel like.
and so I guess he was probably around six months old and I started to get my footing again and we worked at the hospital so much and life was sort of starting to come back and I remember thinking I need to write my way through this. I need to write my way through these feelings and through this whole experience. And so I started writing then what...
that became my debut novel. And I think at that time I just wanted to write about the darker side of motherhood. I wanted to write story about a woman for whom motherhood was nothing like what she expected and nothing like what society told her it would be and so while my main character Blythe her story is very different from mine but But all of that experience and emotion and all that feelings, I think, are in that first book.
about her. And I really, since then, I've really just been consumed with writing about this other side of motherhood, the other side of what it means to be a woman and in that role and the expectations. that are put upon us. I find that all fascinating, endlessly fascinating. Well, let's actually start there with the expectations.
But the expectations, what you said really struck me. You saw this version of motherhood when you were a kid. And there was a part of you that called bullshit on it internally. So maybe that was, you know, that felt performative and that I'm sure relates to kind of these general themes we all take in of like what it means to be a mom or.
Maybe it's like, what is a good mom like? What does a good mom do? What does a good mom... feel what does a good mom think yeah a couple things there like i i think I really I think as I became a woman, like grew from girlhood into womanhood, I think I really started to feel this pressure or this expectation.
that womanhood is motherhood you know that those two things are sort of like one like i didn't have many examples in my life or i didn't see many women who chose not to be mothers like i personally like in my kind of sphere and it sort of felt like oh we equate these these two things like to be a good woman is to be maternal is like you go from girl to mom yeah exactly exactly and there wasn't really that
Like to me, it was just, I remember the debate of whether or not to have kids or whether or not to become a mother. And it sort of felt like, well, this is just what you're supposed to do, you know? And intellectually, I knew better. emotionally I think I really was caught in that you know caught in that feeling of like this is just what you do and and actually there's almost achievement in that you know as a woman being a mother felt like a sort of achievement
for me that I needed to do or have or prove. And so life sort of rolled that way. I know you and I have talked earlier and I know you're having such great conversations. About this idea of the good girl and there is this also right alongside the idea of the good mother you know, and what that is. And I think those two things really feed into each other, you know? What does the good mother do? Maybe we can go back and forth because I have something I...
I'll share first, you know, because I was actually talking about this with friends and we were kind of all laughing about it. you have kind of your kid's class party announcement. And they're like, here's the sign up for what everyone can bring. And we were kind of laughing. I'll share this. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to get paper towels. Or like the orange juice. And then on the other end, There's... like the homemade cupcakes or the you know and and again
We're talking in extremes. There's so much nuance, right? I think we know now we can feel grateful and disappointed at the same time, although society doesn't tell us that's true. And so we don't live that truth, even if our brain...
kind of says it to us and again there are moments you know me too i can make the cupcakes and there are moments every parent hopefully gives themselves permission to be like oh i'm going to sign up for paper towels and the easiest thing before someone else does that yeah but i guess to me Like the good mother. Yes, like shows up at the bake sale with not the paper towels or not the home, you know.
Not the store-bought chocolate chip cookies, but like the homemade cupcakes and... I don't know the icing probably looks really good and none of them toppled over I don't know the car and like their kid didn't take a bite out of one and like put it back as like a prank or something like that so that that's one version I'm curious what kind of conjures up for you Exactly that. It's so funny today, even this morning, I had an email from my daughter.
She's in grade two. And I had an email from her teacher that went to all the parents of the class saying, we're going on a field trip next week. And who wants to sign up for the field trip? And I saw the email and I thought, it's that. you cannot get rid of that voice in your head that says the good mother would sign up for the field trip. Do I want to go on the field trip? No. I don't wanna go on the field trip. And my daughter is gonna say to me, did you sign up for the field trip?
And do I lie to her and tell her I signed up but I didn't get picked? Or do I be honest with her? Or I'm like, how do I handle this? You know, it's because the reality is, like, I don't want to go on that field trip. What do you want to do that day? I want to write.
I just want to I want to write that is what I want to do that day and so do I say to her I'm I didn't sign up and I'm going to write that day I'm going to work that day and how does she feel about that or do I just say Ashley just sign up for the field trip and go you know it's like that and it's so funny too I was my sister just had a baby her first and she was telling me about how
You know, the baby's only like two months old. And so she's still at home and she's getting her bearings and she's tired and the sleeplessness. And she had an afternoon where all she wanted to do was just sit on the couch.
and watch an episode of the housewives that's just all she wanted to do she's you know all we remember what those days were like and so she said she put the baby next to her and she had her laptop and she opened her laptop and turned on the episode of the housewives and Of course she deserves to.
to sit on the couch and watch an episode of Housewives with whatever she wants but she said she felt like the baby was watching her and she felt like the worst mother sitting there having this baby watch her watch the housewives and I and we were laughing but I get it it's like from the very beginning you feel like
Like nobody was actually judging her. The baby is two months old, but you don't feel that way. You feel like you're not doing the right thing. You're not entertaining. You're not engaging the baby. The baby is watching you consume this reality TV show. You're not going for a walk in the sunshine.
you know it's like from the very beginning to now you know these examples that we're sharing with kids that are older it's like it's this prevalent thing you cannot get away from yeah um it's so hard it's so hard to like to do the thing that you want to do over the thing that you think you should do. Yes. As a mom of three kids, I'm always on the lookout for family adventures that offer something for everyone, including myself.
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Just visit greatwolf.com and enter the promo code goodinside when you book. That's one word, goodinside, at greatwolf.com. Book now at greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack. You know recently I actually did a poll on Instagram In any healthy relationship, I believe there's a balance. I don't mean 50-50, but just that both exist. Any healthy relationship involves some amount of taking care of yourself and some amount of taking care of another person.
And sometimes there's this beautiful overlap where, wait, that's crazy. Like what I want for myself is exactly what you want from me. And there's this beautiful synergy. And yet most times there's not. And so there's. this give and take like I'm not getting the thing I want because
I don't know, I'm making this up, but I've never gone on your field trip for 18 years and today's the day I'm going to do it. And then there's, let's say, the other extreme of I've gone on every field trip for 18 years and I feel like I'm going to scream and, you know, kind of go crazy and I'm totally losing myself and today's the first day I'm going to say. not only did I not get picked, honey, I actually didn't even sign up. Right. So those are the two extremes. But what I asked was,
Which comes more naturally, right? And our Instagram, you know, is, I think that's like 92% women, okay? And so I said, what comes more naturally? Kind of gazing in and taking care of your own needs. Or gazing out and taking care of someone else's needs. What do you imagine? What was the response? Yeah. Out of 100, what was? Oh, like overwhelmingly looking out. Yeah, 90. 90. Wow. Right? Wow. Yeah. And then this, you know, one of the things I think about with motherhood all the time.
And this, you know, and I was saying this to you earlier where... I think people used to say this about me and Good Inside, and I'm kind of, I hope people don't say this. They're like, known for the scripts, for the tantrums. I love a good script for a tantrum. I love a good script for a bedtime. I love a good script for a sibling argument. We all need those tools, but I actually really hope that's not. what good insight is known for and instead if we're known for something it's
It would be like women saying, I feel a lot more empowered and confident. And I just happened to find that through my parenting journey. But one of the things that really came up through this poll... Right. Was I feel so guilty when I take care of myself. Self-care feels selfish. Yes. Yeah. I derive like my value, like my true value and worth by taking care of other people. Right. And that's all true here. But then this other thing is true as well, which I find really interesting.
While we're getting that short-term like filled up, kind of my old circuitry says I'm supposed to take care of everyone else and be a good girl, which means this kind of total self-sacrificing moms, I never get my needs met. Which means there's going to be one moment when something very, very small happens. And I completely lose my shit on everyone. And then... What I always find extra unfortunate is that we end up apologizing.
Even though to some degree, it's like, wait a second. Right. I'm apologizing for this moment. But there's a whole ocean.
Yes. Underneath that. Yes. Yeah. I really relate to that. I really relate to that. And as you're speaking, I'm thinking of this idea of... like connected to something you mentioned earlier about like what is the good mother you know what and I'm interested I'm so interested in how you would answer that question because sometimes I'll get that in when I was doing interviews for the push or for the whispers
I think they're very realistic portraits of mothers, the mothers in those books, but they don't always come across as the most likable. you know women or the most likable characters which is something we talk about a lot in fiction but like about women characters and female characters being likable or not but i would often get asked like well what it is the character of good mother and i and it and i this idea of this
The phrase of the good mother, it makes me cringe. It makes me feel icky in the same way that a good girl does. And so often, I really struggled with how to answer that question in interviews for a long time when I was talking about the book.
Sometimes I would default to this idea of which i actually don't agree with now but i used to sort of default to this idea of it's it's someone who's trying their best are you are you always trying your best well then you're a good mother and now I actually I don't know if I believe that anymore because I feel like sometimes you're allowed to not always be trying your best and that's okay and I think it's taken me a long time
to acknowledge that or to feel that in myself as a mother i mean it's exactly what we're talking about like is is giving your best doing your best bringing the nice cupcakes like yeah is doing your best bringing that you know it's like it was doing my best going on the field trip well yeah i could like i could so it's it's like giving yourself permission
to not be doing that or to not be behaving in that way. But what do you think? So my first reaction is actually very similar to yours, which is like, I feel like a cringe feeling. Yeah. Which I think whenever I notice that in myself with a question. Part of me has learned to trust. I don't really want to answer that question. I mean, the only way I would answer that question is, what does it mean to be a good leader? Because I think parents are leaders. I mean, I actually think...
You know, honestly, what... draws me every day to like want to continue doing this work at Goodinside is is actually thinking about parenthood that way. There's a lot of intention and effort and work going to understand leadership in the workplace and leadership in sports. And we've actually kind of revolutionized how we think about those two fields. Like you really shouldn't yell at your employees anymore.
Not only because it's not nice, it just actually doesn't get the best out of them. And berating professional athletes isn't the way to go we should work on their self-talk and help whatever it is right and yet with children it's like the last area to like humanize and i guess i think about good leaders or what i would say is like a sturdy leader
As someone who's able to be connected to themselves and connected to someone else at the same time. That you have enough boundaries that you know what you want. And that, not at any given moment, like a field trip, because that really limits how we define ourselves. But let's just say over the course of time or some amount of time, a month, I'm making that up. I, in general, kind of know what I need and I can get my needs met.
So one of the things in the push that I kept thinking about is I'm kind of on this tear. And the most extreme version that I don't even believe in, but I'm kind of going to say it just for impact, is there's no such thing as maternal instinct. And the reason I think that's a powerful thing to think about is I think there's just no other thing we do in life That's hard and important.
Like parenting, there's nothing else like that that we tell people they should do solely on instinct. Like it would be cruel to tell doctors. You know, oh, you have an instinct for being an oncologist. Maybe like, oh, I probably should still go to medical school, right? And I think this idea of maternal instinct is what makes so many moms feel broken and like a failure when things are hard.
because if something should come on instinct alone and if you're having a hard time there's really only one explanation something's wrong with you or something's wrong with your kid yeah Having said that, I definitely believe that there are these moments of maternal or paternal intuition.
So there are these moments where like you just know, like, and I think sometimes, you know, something's going on with your kid and a doctor's like, they're fine. And you're like, I just know not to leave this office. Right. And that plays out. And I'm just curious how you think about instinct about.
intuition how that played out in the push how you think about it in your own life Yeah, I mean, I wrote about this a lot in The Whispers, too, because like this, just this idea of The Whispers, you know, as it relates to women and mothers is that thing that you do have, I think, that you really do have a knowing.
about things a lot of time and i don't know if it's instinct but it's a knowing it's like a knowing that you feel within yourself you know it could be about your marriage it could be about a friendship it could be about your children um and i think there's this idea that you know a lot of times with um with that knowing or with these whispers that we have um it's like
they're sort of like always there and the question is more like do you want to listen to them like are you open and willing to sort of listen to it or not and a lot of that comes down to like how much we trust ourselves right and how much we've
been made to feel like we can trust ourselves or not you know and so much of this i think comes so much of it i think as women comes down to childhood and the ways that as girls we were raised and i thought about this so much um because i was never someone who I was not like, I didn't like to babysit.
I didn't love to like role play motherhood sort of stuff but I but I really noticed like my daughter really does you know it comes to her very it comes to her more naturally than it ever did to me I can see that in her and I've always seen that in her but I've also been very conscious about the way that I speak to her about that Because I think that we can often speak.
to young girls in a way that presumes their maternal ability or presumes their interest in motherhood. Like we might say, to someone like we might say to a little girl like people would say to my daughter um oh like when you're a mom you'll see oh well when you're a mother this this assumption that you will be one you know and it starts that young like we get the idea in our head that young you're gonna be such a good mom you'll be such a good mom
mom or i would say you know and i i was guilty of this i write about this in the push because the main character experiences this um but i would even say to like friends who were expecting i would say you're going to be amazing you're going to be a natural you're going to be such a good mom and like you hear that over and over through your life as a young woman
And so when it doesn't necessarily feel that way, when it doesn't feel loud and clear for you as a mother, you do start to doubt yourself and you do think something's wrong. So I just think it starts. so young and I don't know with my daughter I try to be so aware of that that there can be you know and again it comes back to what we mentioned that tie between womanhood and motherhood and how that better be there that instinct better be there you know
Yeah, well, look, me and you both have these deeply feeling kids. I know your son, mine's my daughter, but one of the things I think about her in terms of childhood and how that relates to adulthood and... of confidence and trust is Believing your kids' experience.
So true. And a lot of what I had written about in The Push with Blythe and the main character and her experience of motherhood is she's having doubts. She's having doubts about... the way her child's behaving like is she noticing things like she's having those in those those feelings those like gut feelings about sort of what's going on in the family and the dynamic and and she certainly grew up in a way where nobody was
telling her that they that she was never having that validation of her feelings or her experience and she very much carries that through to womanhood and then even her partner can't do that for her you know even her partner and never says I believe you. Yeah, he doubts her and her mother-in-law doubts her and everybody around her doubts her because her truth is inconvenienced.
you know we're talking about this is inconvenient woman and she she becomes that you know in that book that what she believes to be true is not convenient for anybody else around her and in fact it's uncomfortable and so there's no validation there's no belief and so yeah you can really see how as a child like just just programming a kid to know what that feels like.
to be believed you could you could see how I mean my hope is that my kids carry that through and they don't have that doubt in themselves or they don't need the outside validation as much you know as they might I'm just thinking about that binary that like I don't love to think of binaries. I like to think that multiple things can be true. And it does feel like this binary, like either, either I can prioritize what feels true.
or I can be convenient to everyone else. Yeah. And you often can't, you often can't do both. Right. And I think as women, Yeah, like being convenient. Pleasing. Being so attentive to everyone's needs that you can meet other people's needs maybe even before they say them, which obviously requires you to completely self-abandon any type of attention to your own needs.
we got a lot of we got a lot of reinforcement for that right yes oh yeah yeah i really feel that um i really feel that a i think when my kids were very very young i had a really hard time with that and i don't think i did practice that I think you know I my little piece of that was stealing a few hours every week to go right you know that was we would have a so lucky to have a babysitter come a few times a week and instead of doing the groceries for the family yeah
or going to a workout class that I knew I needed to do or cleaning the house or whatever it was. I really tried to fiercely protect those hours. to run down the street to the coffee shop with my laptop and just write because I knew that's what I wanted to do. I did not have a book deal. I was not getting paid. I was on maternity leave. There was no... financial incentive to do that. I just knew that I needed to do that. What was the feeling in you of writing? How would you describe it?
Oh, it was a real freedom. It was a real freedom, I think. And I felt most myself when I was writing. And I think... The experience of motherhood, especially sort of in those early days of like going through all the medical stuff and everything was so I did not feel myself. And actually, you know, it's so interesting is that.
At the, I mean, as we said, it's such a big identity shift anyways, but I think this is very common of most children's hospitals, but at the children's hospital, The staff were just incredible. They cannot keep track of a child's name and all the parents' names. They just can't. It's hard. That is a hard thing. And so they know your child's name.
but you are always referred to as my son's name is Oscar. So I was always referred to as Oscar's mom, Oscar's mom, mom, mom. And so for months, In that hospital, nobody ever said, my name like you just need and so you it's just this real tangible you know erasing of kind of who you were and And that to me was so symbolic of this real loss of identity at that time. But when I was writing, it was like back to me. It was just for me. I wasn't sharing it with anybody. I never thought.
anybody would read this book or whatever it became you know it was just an exploration of my own thoughts and ideas and all of that. Now, there's such a privilege in that. I really acknowledge that there was such a privilege in having a babysitter and being able to go do that, you know, during the day sometimes, like a couple times a week. But, you know,
but that was um that really i think was like a taste for me of like doing having the thing i want being inconvenient you know the convenient thing would have been to get the groceries done and do the laundry and help everybody else in the family But as my kids have gotten older, like they're now seven and almost 10 and I'm finding, I am feeling, we were talking about this, feeling a little more space for that. It becomes a little easier.
A couple of things I just want to say about that. You're right. So, so number one, um, This idea that when you do start to wonder, about what you might want for yourself or i describe it for me as like what lights me up inside that's the feeling like it feels almost explosive in like a good way like i feel I don't know. I just feel like lit up, like the light bulbs go on when I'm doing something. Yeah. That really fulfills me in that way.
almost always it does go hand in hand with inconveniencing someone else like very rarely do the stars line up when everyone's gonna like give you an applause or be like you go girl you deserve that just today and i just think knowing that
The other thing I want to say is that, yes, you and I both have older kids, right? Mine are seven, 10, 13. This is so much easier now. Like just literally the hours they're out of the house, you know, their ability to put on their own shoes and tie their own shoes. The fact that. Right? Like, if we don't have a snack when we're out, it's not.
kind of world war three like those things weren't true in my house years ago and the fact that they are true now is literal more energy and space and and the last thing i want to say and i think you and i probably both have heard this from women is People say all the time, okay, babysitter or no babysitter, I have an hour to myself. why do I feel like I'm having a panic attack yeah I don't know what to do
I don't know what I would like to do. I don't know what would feel good. And this feels more anxiety producing. And so I'm just going to deep.
rage clean my house and yell at my kids when they're home and maybe my partner if I have one for leaving the house so messy which by the way I only say that because I used to be a pro in that pattern okay so just a couple things about that and this is one of the things I actually talk a lot about in our mom rage program which is one of the ones I'm proudest of which I'm going to rename because it's not just about moms but it is this kind of
feminine kind of version of ourselves we're told we have to be and how that leads to rage is if you had a friend who was starving literally they hadn't eaten and 10 days or maybe you know 35 years let's say and they were presented with a menu and they were like I just don't know what to order I don't know. Nothing sounds good. I don't know what I would like. I don't even know what to do. I know the advice we'd give them.
Just because you don't know what you want doesn't mean you shouldn't try something. And it's the process of ordering something. where you'll learn over time, like, I like that rap. I did want a burger. I did want a salad. Whatever it was. But you would never tell a starving friend, well, if you don't know what you want,
Just don't order something. Right. Just don't eat. And I think the freedom of like, I won't know what I like until I dabble. Yes. And it might take you 30 dabbles. Yeah. Where you're like, I actually hate.
watercolor painting why did i even think that was me okay you know or you know i do like to take a little walk around you know the block but i wouldn't have known that if i didn't give myself permission to try something and i know for myself when i adopted that attitude i just knew rage cleaning maybe it was on the menu but I just had a feeling it wasn't my best order you know like other things were like gonna have a little bit more high potential um and I feel like
For anyone listening who's like, okay, Ashley, Dr. Becky, you guys have your lit up things. Like, I don't even know. That's okay. I think you and I probably both started there. But just the freedom to try without knowing if you like it. Yeah. I feel like it was a big kind of step. more soon. Thank you.