Sarah McLachlan

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Good Hang. Very excited about our guest today. It is the one, the only Sarah McLaughlin. I mean so many hits. Such an incredible singer, started Lilith Fair, y created a music school. I mean she's just Awesome and talented and nice and funny.

And Sarah and I are gonna talk about a lot of things. We're gonna talk about growing up in Canada and whether those lakes ever get warm. The answer is no. We're gonna talk about Lilith Fair, what it took to start it and make it and keep it going.

We're gonna talk about her new music, making music with her daughters and being a woman in the world today. So many good things. Also, I should let you know at one point I have a coughing fit and it is really embarrassing and Sarah's so cool about it because of course she is. She's the coolest. So thank you, Sarah.

Um, before we get started, we always like to ask people that know our guests to give us a question and talk well behind their back. And we have a great one today. Also, just an incredible musical artist in her own right. Would love to get in here in her in here to talk about stuff. The one, the only, the multi Grammy Award winning Cheryl Crow, everybody. Cheryl

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Me? Oh my god, I can't believe I'm talking to you. I can't tell you. I in fact it's funny. Are we on? Yeah, we're on. Um well I'll just tell you, I texted Adam Scott. I was driving home from visiting my parents in Missouri, a three and a half hour drive, and my mom's not making memories anymore. So it's always a hard drive back. And I listened to you and Adam.

on the way back and I laughed like for uh literally off and on the whole way. It was the greatest gift ever. So great. Oh, th did you say you texted Adam? I did. I texted him right like right after that. Wait, are you guys friends? I didn't know that. Well, actually it's funny, we were married in a past No, I'm at him. I met him on the Kansas City um

The big slick. Oh yeah. That fundraiser they do every year. It's the funnest thing ever. Um, and I'm from Missouri, so I kind of like edged my way in there and I met him through that. And oh my God, he and Paul Rudd and I mean it's just It's all your people, but it's so much fun. Oh, Cheryl, that means a lot. I love you. Where are we talking to you from?

Um, I'm in Nashville. I'm in the uh technically the sunroom, but is pouring here. I mean it's literally Nashville is like the rainforest now. Well, I always th I always associate you with Austin, but you're out of Austin into Nashville. Yeah. I moved actually kind of I moved from Austin to Nashville. I got I I was engaged, got diagnosed with breast cancer, split up. moved to um Nashville basically all in uh and had LASIK surgery, most importantly, all in the in the process of like three weeks.

You know what, this just leads me to my I don't it's not even a question. It's just an observation. Just women are amazing. I I I mean I just I can't it's just like everyone should be saying this every day. The things you just listed would take any man down. You judge Pick it up and keep on moving. Well, I'm I've been you know, we're gonna we're talking to Sarah McLaughlin today and I um I had the pleasure of watching the Lilith Fair Doc.

And two things. One, that whole experience to me feels like a just a great version of what we're talking about, which is Creativity for creativity's sake, like watching artists kind of try to find the fun part. Yes. But it also uh reminded me of How cool you are, Cheryl Crow. Like every single time you come on stage, I'm like, God, look at Cheryl's outfit. Look at her hair. Anyway. No, go on. I I have time. No.

That is so nice. I I will tell you, um, that tour was not like anything I've ever experienced. And the whole thing came about at such a strange, you know, Lollapalooza was happening and Every time, like I can remember calling my agent and saying, I can I get some women on a bill? Like I'd love to tour with Amy Mann. And every time it would be like, Yeah, people won't buy tickets to see two women on on a bill, particularly men, men won't. And around that time Sarah had this crazy idea.

And uh she wound up calling me and I was just, God, it's just a perfect time for it. All that to say is that what we took out on the stage was it was defiance, but it was also like community it was a little bit of a gentle fuck you uh to the norms. The fact that yeah there were quite a few Um, you know, there were quite a few gay women in the audience, but there were as many families and as many heterosexual couples and as many men. I mean, it was totally everything. So it defied.

what all the agents and the promoters were saying. Like you're just gonna wind up with an audience full of women and they're and they're not gonna they're not the ones that buy tickets. And she really defied that in her beautiful um genteel um gypsy way and she brought everybody along with it. It was it felt like we were taking a party out on the stage. And hopefully people did feel like they were included. Yeah.

I had a brilliant conversation with Brandy Carlisle about it and her being in the audience as a young, you know, as a young girl and wanting to do what we were up there doing. Um, and there's there's such beautiful power in that. It really was not like anything else that I've ever been a part of. I always ask my um

I guess a question from someone that knows them well. And um is there a question you have uh for Sarah that you think I should ask her? I mean, one of the things I always think is interesting, well, two things. What would she be doing if she wasn't doing music? Because it's so much a part of her. I mean, she has her own school and Um

But I think about that. I was a school teacher. So I'm always like, well, if it doesn't work, I still go I still say this. If it doesn't work out, I'll go back to teaching school. Uh if it doesn't work out. If it doesn't work out. Yeah. Okay. So I'll ask Sarah about that. That's a great question. Anything else?

Um, yeah, I c this is something that I just find interesting with people who wind up making it. Ask Sarah if she just always knew she was gonna make it. Like did she just know she was gonna be doing what she's doing. I don't think I ever knew I was gonna be doing this until um I was like maybe eight years in. Ugh great question. Cheryl Crow, I love you. Thank you so much for doing this. I love you too.

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Sarah McLaughlin is here. I just had a major coughing fit before we started. And it's good to get it out beforehand. It made me think about what do you do when you're singing and you have to cough? Yeah, that's tricky.

What what do you do on sport? Well you cough and you just you know, it's one of those the show has to go on, but you're like, I'm just gonna need a moment and tack and take a you know, and take a drink and go, you know, can't blame that one on menopause. That's a whole lot I can, but not that one. Um Have you ever thrown up on stage? No. Almost. I have I have a fear of that. Almost. Oh shit, yeah. I um I was doing um the tree lighting at Rockefeller. We were doing a a Christmas show.

And oh yeah. And I had I was freshly pregnant. Oh yeah. And was just heinously ill. Like just green twenty four seven. And I remember being, you know, it's very public. and you're doing this, you know, that your your sound check and everybody's watching and I'm just looking in the corners.

Okay, there's a poinsetta over there. I'm just like, where's a quiet corner that I can go hurl? Oh, in front of everybody. Oh, the glamour. There's so many things to talk about today. I'm thrilled that you're here. Like when we talk about the guests that we want to have on the show, um, and your name came up, we thought, We're like, that would be a dream. Well, thank you. And so let's start by going back because you grew up in Canada. Yeah.

And we we started this um interview with me apologizing and saying, Sorry, sorry, sorry, which does sound very Canadian Canadian. I love a Canadian. They're the best. They're so nice. Are they as friendly as people think they are? Generally speaking, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Um

I don't know. We just we kinda are. I mean, uh you know, there's assholes everywhere. But um generally I think we're we're polite for one thing. That's right. I think by nature that's sort of like, you know, there's a certain

thing you uphold of just being civil and yeah polite to everybody. I know. There's a there's a um An attit a Canadian attitude that's really lovely to be around, which is basically, and I think I mean, I think a lot of it has to do with the weather, which is basically like you can either choose to complain or you can get on with it. Yeah, it's true. There's certainly a a a solid amount of, you know, suck it up buttercup. Yeah. And and

You just don't get anywhere by complaining. No. Also, you know, Irish parents is like, don't go thinking anything special. Oh, big time. That's very that's very Boston too. Like very yeah. Like like you can't like

Just don't don't um don't kind of fall in love with yourself, you know, and we're here to we're gonna humble you every step of the way if you do. So you grew up in Canada and you when did you realize, you know, you you had this gift. You knew that music was gonna be part of your life forever. Do you remember the feeling when you were young that you knew? I think I'm good at this or I think I really want to do this. What was it? Um, grade seven. Variety show?

And I have to preface this with saying I was really bullied. I was terribly unpopular and this was my Opportunity for redemption. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna prove myself to my community. And I got up there and I sang uh The Gambler by Kenny Rogers on acoustic guitar. Is it you gotta know in all the things? No when to hold'em, no when to fall'em. Yeah, I mean oh when to walk away and know when to run.

It makes sense that a seventh grade girl would uh you know, relate to that. I don't know. I just loved Kenny Rogers. Anyway, so I I got up there to sing this song and I got about halfway through it and the mic stopped working. Oh God. And so my my moment, you know, my my triumphant moment was uh, you know, dashed'cause everybody said, Oh, that wasn't really you singing, that the tape player must have turned off.

They refused to acknowledge that it was me singing, but I knew. I felt good about it and um I felt even better about it that they refused to believe it was actually me and they thought it was a recorded version of something that obviously sounded a little more professional. So um yeah. Okay, so you're in Canada, you're a young person who's realizing I have something special.

Who were you listening to at the time? Uh when I was really young, other than Kenny Rogers, it was um Simon Agarfunkel, Kat Stevens. Oh, yes. Uh, Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell. Yeah. And then you're learning how to play how.

Uh, when I was four I wanted to be Joan Baez, so my mom got me ukulele and I started taking lessons. Uh I we we lived in a little subdivision, so up the street there was a little old lady who taught ukulele and So I walked up there every week and took lessons and then when we moved into the city when I was seven, I started with the Royal Conservatory of Music, which was kind of classical music was

at the time kind of the only legitimate thing way to learn an instrument. So I took classical guitar for um twelve years. Wow took classical piano for six years. I took voice for four years. Um And, you know, it it was a fantastic foundation to learn how to play the instrument, but it was never really my jam. Okay. So then you're listening to all these incredible singer songwriters and you decide you wanna be a singer songwriter and you get a record deal at nineteen. Yeah.

How did that happen? So the very first band that I was in when I was seventeen, the October game, we played a gig um at the D Delhouse University subballroom and we opened up for a band called Mauve and they were on a small independent label in Vancouver. and the guitar player, singer of the band heard me sing and was like

We want you to come out to Vancouver and join our band. And I'm like, Cool, cool. I'm seventeen. That sounds great. So I ran home to my mom and dad who, you know, promptly said, Are you effing crazy? Not a chance. You're gonna finish high school and Um so I was still listening to them at that time. Yeah. Smartly. So I I I squeaked by high school. and then started going to the art college w there. And um th I was working at a place called Club Flamingo.

And Terry McBride, the president of the label, came with their band Skinny Puppy, which was this industrial Do you remember Skinny Puppy? Skinny Puppy. Yeah, blood and guts and mud and gore. Yeah. Um Very different than your music skinny. Yeah, a little bit different. So, um he came and I remember so clearly I was playing Quicksilver, my favorite pinball.

game. Yeah. And I was working on my high score and he's like, Hey, I wanna I wanna talk to you. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, give me a minute. I'm so waited till I finished and he took me out to his plush blue velvet tour bus and uh sat me down at the kitchen table and put a contract for me, said we want to offer you a five record deal. Whoa. And I was like

Yeah, yeah, sure. What do you like what do you really want? How does anybody know I'm here? Yeah, there's too much plush in here. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but no, he was serious. And um originally they wanted me to come out to Vancouver and work with a bunch of other network bands. Then when I c got out there they're like all these other network bands hadn't been asked.

And like, we're not gonna work with this punk kid. She's got no track record, she hasn't written anything. Nah, never mind. But I was already there, so at that point they were like, Well, let's just see what you come up with and so I Just kinda started writing. Wow. To the best of my ability. I mean, obviously I had a as I said a great foundation of understanding music and theory. I had done deep dives into my favorite artists, which at the time were Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush. Uh

Don't walk you up. Sorry. It's good. It's good. I hear ya. I feel ya. Um so I just, you know, I I just kinda fake it till you make it. I I just made my first record in about a year and um started touring and toured and toured and toured and then

You know, just kind of went from there. That's the thing that I think sometimes we kind of like, you know, we're kind of tough on ourselves when we look back and and look at our naivete about things and think like, Oh, we didn't know what we were doing. But there's such a freedom when you're young about kind of not knowing what's around the corner, sometimes it's better to not Ignorance bliss. Yes, sometimes that's true.

If you knew how important your decisions were that if you d went left rather than right it would change your whole life, you'd never take a step. Well, you'd work in f you'd be living in fear, constant fear and constant un uncertainty. So you're right. Just that that sort of

you know, dumb and green. Yeah. And totally just like the world is kind of your oyster and and y all these possibilities feel endless. Do you remember your first time you ever heard anything that you'd ever written on the radio? Yeah. Where were you? I was in a taxi cab with my first publicist, Tony. On our way to Toronto to do our very first promotional tour for the record, and Vox came on the radio and the two of us looked at each other, just started screaming.

And the You did not know it was gonna be on the taxi driver was like, What the hell's going on? I said, That's me, that's me on the radio and he's like, sure and go, No, no, no, and then we we got out and we pulled out the you know, the albums that we were Bringing with us to sign for the record or for the radio station. And he's like, Oh, can I have a picture with you? Yeah, suddenly he wants a picture. Yeah. But it was like, it just felt like like

Validation. Oh yeah. Oh my God. How is it that this is already happening? It all felt so surreal up until that moment. And I mean honestly there are still many, many surreal moments after that. Well, you've had so many hits, like throughout your career. I mean, we were I was listening to your music all morning and your new record, which is great. And Um I I it it's so hard to like you're I imagine

I I imagine that songs ha you know, just like any piece of art, they just kind of have a life of their own. They take all these journeys. They They bloom, they come back, they mean something different the next time around. Some of them you think, oh, these are gonna be the ones that are gonna really go and they don't, or others that you think like this is the one that's like The one that everyone's always singing back to me. That you have so many hits and so many songs.

What like uh do they f does that does does do songs feel that way to you? Your songs that they have their own life and journey that like is out of your control? Absolutely. I mean music is art is so subjective, right? It's like you see something, you hear something, you read something and it resonates with you or it doesn't. And it you then

in part you you put you put your own story into it and then that that's where you draw inspiration from. That's where it that's how it affects you. And so I mean the coolest thing is when people come up to me and say, Oh my God, you know the song you created, your song you wrote

has helped me in this way. I brought it with me on my trip and, you know, like I've met so many people who went through high school with my music or went through university. So, you know, really pivotal times and huge changes in their worlds, losing a parent. Yeah. Losing a child. Like All these sympathy. Stories. um about what it means to other people are

beautiful and and cool to know that there's something I've created has made some kind of impact in someone's life and been there with them on, you know, a beautiful journey, a tough journey. And somehow help them in some way. I mean, you've been like a Cyreno for so many people because they They've used your music to tell someone how they feel about them. You know? I mean, we came up in the era of like mixtapes and putting music together. It was such a big deal to

you know, hand someone over a bunch of music that you picked for them and it was always like here's my playlist Yeah, exactly. It was like this it was basically like this is how I feel about you. Yeah, yeah. It was like It was like, I can't tell you, but I'm gonna have you listen. And there was always like coded language in what we put together for people. And so many of your songs and your music did that for people. They allowed people to kind of, you know,

feel through you, you know. And is there s is there I mean you're there's so many hits.

Is there a song that like became bigger than like is it that still kind of is like surprising to you that it like it had the kind of journey it had? I well, I suppose that would be Angel. Yeah. Um and that was one of those very it very seldom happens as a songwriter that something happens quickly and easily for me. It's like music is flowing all the time, but lyrics are really hard work.

It's like extracting blood from a stone often for me. And I'm super A D D so trying to, you know, it's like give me any distract distraction when I'm trying to do something yeah that is hard and challenging in the sense of, you know, trying to focus. Um, but Angel felt like I was just a vessel and it just came through me in like two days and it was done and I remember thinking at the end of uh when I first put out surfacing, like the rest of this album's crap, but Angel's Angel's solid.

I mean obviously I had no perspective. Yeah, a few. But that is, you know, that's a good thing. That's that mindset when you've just worked and worked and worked at something and you don't have any perspective. Yeah. That angel has had Um

you know, such a life of its own. Yeah. And has done, you know, so many things. As I said, talking about how it's helped people through, you know, individual tough situations. So many stories of my I've played this, my mother played this when she was passing and really helped us.

Um, you know, the SPCA obviously, you know. Well you raised th thirty million dollars. Well that was within the first year, I think. So who knows what's happened since Do people assume that you um like do people assume you've You're constantly fostering and adopting animals. Because you must get that predicted. I would not believe the and also just, you know, like the, you know, ten or twenty letters a week about, you know

people sending me, you know, all their rescues and or I'm doing this charity, I'm working with this. Can you help? And um yeah, you know, and it it it took on such a life of its own. I I remember I was doing a a food bank charity gig in New York. Eight years later. And they said, Can you please not play Angel? Because it's so synonymous with this other charity. There's gonna be some brand confusion. I'm like, fuck that, are you serious? Is it true that I Will Remember You was a B-side?

Like that that that song was on a like in a film. Yeah, it was uh um Brothers McMullen. It was Ed Burns directorial debut. That's right. And it just that that's like one of the many monster hits. yeah how many how many How many b how many?

number one like how many hits have you had? Oh you're ask you're asking the wrong people. I suppose I should know this too. Hold on, we're gonna look it up. I'm gonna laugh. You know what I wanna do? I wanna brag about any number one hits. I think it's so sick of it. You know, uh we're always like, oh I don't even know and

we should know. No, this is this is embarrassing. I don't know either of it. No, it's it's totally normal and actually it's it's why you're such a you're you're a normal person who doesn't look at their hits. But I'm gonna look at your hits right now. Okay, I'm gonna read them right now. Sarah, can you handle this? This is very American. And not very Canadian. Well, I just wrote Sarah McLaughlin hits. You consulting the Oracle? Okay.

Building a mystery, sweet surrender, possession, better broken, ice cream. Oh yeah. Angel Vox. We talked about Vox, heard it on the radio. Into the fire, elsewhere, fallen, fumbling toward ecstasy, adia, possession, sweet surrender, building everybody listening right now is having this moment of like, huh, huh, huh, huh, huh? Because they remember they're remembering.

I mean monster hit, Sarah. Hit makers. Thanks. Sorry. I'm just gonna brag for you. Okay. So then you leave Canada, you're in a band. Uh sorry, you're you're m you're making music. Are you in a band at that point? No, you're just kind of making music under your you're you're ne it's never Sarah McLaughlin and the You mean when I got signed. Yeah. Yeah, no, they that that was the other tricky bit of that when they came and offered me that deal, my band that I

We hadn't been together about a year'cause they'd gone off to school, so we'd kind of split up but still they were all they knew about it and they were like, What do you say? And I'm like, Oh you're like, Well I had this beautiful this sort of excited moment and I was like, I g I think they just want me Yeah. Yeah, that's always so that was a bit of a tough a tough moment too. But um now you're you start to tour and when how old are you when you ask Paula, Cole, to open for you? Twenty one.

Why do you twenty two? Yeah. And and why did you ask Paula? 'Cause I loved her. Yeah. I loved your music and how did you find out about music? Um, I think just radio. Yeah. Yeah. I was, you know, w listening and watching what you know, what else was going on out there. and discovered her and was like, Oh my God, what an incredible voice which's so powerful and I love her lyrics and love the melodies and I was like, Hmm, wonder if she'd wanna come sing.

Well, well, what I love about the Lilith Fair Doc, which is on Hulu, is that it it talks about the kind of slow process of realizing there's a way to work. Like there's a way to choose how to work. It's very relatable, I think, for a lot of women who if they're lucky enough, get an opportunity to figure out, is there a way I like to work that I could figure out? Like it's that that's the dream. Yeah. Um and You ask Paula to join as an opening act and you two realize this is fun.

This is actually fun. Yeah. Well i it's a back then, I mean, I was uh all my crew were men, my band were men. I had a a female backup singer, but, you know, it was just us and the sea of men who I adored and loved. They were my crew and they're a wonderful bunch of people, but Um, I just, you know, having Paula there was just this breath of fresh air for me and this awareness of like, you know, we

We we kinda need each other. This is a weird industry. It's isolating. We make music alone and you know Yeah. Um she's just really nice to have her around. Yeah. We really it was great to connect with her. Oh my god, we just saw her at the uh a tiff. She showed up, I didn't even know she was coming. And we both burst into tears. I was like, oh my God. That's so nice. I mean I mean sweet. And for people who don't Um they they should watch this doc, certainly. But in a nutshell

Um how how do you describe it to people who are who have never heard of it or didn't get a chance to go see it? Um, it was a celebration of much of the great music that was being made by women in the late nineties. Um and it was uh Yeah, it was basically that. And that was the simple origin story. Yeah. And then we were told we couldn't do it because you shouldn't put more than two women

on a stage together, you certainly can't play two women back to back on radio. And I had felt that I had seen that and witnessed it time and time again. And I just never understood or liked the competitive nature of it. Yeah. You know, I didn't think music should be put into those kind of pigeonholes. I didn't think we as artists should be. Um I certainly didn't notice it happening with men and that pissed me off as well. So uh though it didn't start out as

a political statement, it be kind of you know, it be kind of came became that where I was told you can't do that. I'm like, oh Oh yeah, then that doesn't work for me. No, you can't. Because they w people were saying there's just no way anyone's gonna pay this money to see all these women performing. Like this just Yeah, how insulting. We proved our point.

In nineteen ninety six, yeah. And then went, Oh my gosh, this was so amazing and so fun. Let's do a full tour next summer. And that was the point at which just like Oh yeah, no you can't do that. So funny. Really? Really? And the and and it was still you you just can't do it because we won't sell tickets? Yeah. No promoters would not take any risk. They were like, you can't do that. You can't say, well, we just did.

And we just sold out fifteen thousand people. And they were like, Well, that's a that's a one off, that's an anomaly. They're like, This isn't gonna last. It's not gonna last. We it was you know, ooh, that was just a little blip, you know, a little fat or a little trend. Then I'm like, No, no, no, we can do this. And again, that back to that naivety.

Of just, yeah, you know, going, what are you talking about? No, we're gonna do this. Right. Um, and you know, we took for the most there's like no guarantees that we took all the risks. Oh b w by taking the risk did you make more money because you took the risk?

Uh y uh yes. Like that's good. I mean i i it's like uh you had some control. We had some control we had a ton of control. Yeah. Uh we got you know, we raised over seven million dollars for local and national charities over the three years as well.

I mean people don't re b you know, again I can't I can't stress enough to watch the doc. Um but On top of everything else you were doing, I think what was so incredible about Lilith Lilith Fair is it really did feel like a fair. It was there were people walking around, there were booths everywhere, there was fundraising constantly, there was

Backstage everyone was hanging out, all the women were bringing their kids on tour. And I mean it was like it's like a it was like a utopian version of what it would look like. if women were in charge of most of the systems of how to work. And it looked and still looks like this ideal way in which to be part of a community and still feel like you're an individual with an uh you know, you had a lot of artists who were very, very different on that tour. Yeah.

And yet they still all wanted to hang out with each other. They took care of each other. You you know, you you pay you know, you gave health insurance to crew who often never had it on tour. Yeah, they never had it before. That's kind of unheard of in the industry. Yeah. I mean Listen, it was um it was just an extension of the way I live my life. And again, looking at

what it is as how it is as an artist, as a band member, a crew member coming into someone else's environment, like how how would I want to be treated? How would I want to be made to feel? Yeah. I want to feel respected and um taken care of. And that was just the MO. It's like we're gonna take care of everybody, we're gonna make sure everybody feels good, respected. This is a this is a safe space. This is

fun. You're all gonna get fed really well. I mean, I'll never forget, you know, crew came in first day of new new artists and they're always super grumpy. I mean, you know, we've I've had that experience going into a festival, you know, where it's like, are we even gonna get a sound check? Are we gonna get fed? It's gonna be a long day. By the end of the day, everybody's happy, everybody's smiling. Like, okay, this is this is gonna be great. And that is the environment that I wanted to create.

for everybody there. It's like this is an extension of me, of my of my hospitality, of my Ethos. Yes. You know. This is how you want to work. Be respectful. Treat treat everybody the way you want to be treated yourself. Yeah, you know, like live and let live. Let people be and let's just

I know, sounds very woo woo and utopian. But I'm so like that though. I mean I just cute, man, it's like I mean, why does it why can't we all just get along? Why does it why do we have to keep uh and also why do we have to say these kind of things and then apologize for like how earnest and Like because like it's hopeful. We need to stay hopeful. It's like you know, it that that was the thing about the doc is that what I felt was

you know, you did it no one can get anything exactly right. Right. So what was really wonderful about what I felt like you were doing was constantly pivoting, taking feedback and adjusting. Like there was a lot of adjustments you made. You What what were some of the things that you, you know, when you were making that fair uh in its second or third year, you realized, oh, we have to adjust here.

Yeah, I mean we w the the big adjustment was very early on, which was like, you know, White Chick Folk Fest. And I mean I I knew that was coming and I was I agreed with that. I you know, and I was frustrated by it because we asked everybody. We asked all these different artists from all shif different genres of music

Um but you know, to to be fair, their management teams would look at the lineup so far and go, I'm not sure where the place is for my artists in this. Yeah. And, you know, in my head, my naive head, I'm like, I listen to all different kinds of music. I know that most of my friends who are fans of music, they don't listen to just one genre. They it just depends on their mood. They have so why are we being so um, you know?

uh minimizing of the, you know, uh and and sort of th looking at our fans and going, Oh, they they they can't handle this. Of course they can handle it. They they're they want it. They're hungry for it. And so to create that opportunity that, you know, for all of us to showcase our unique talents. So just again, it just it felt like the most natural thing in the world.

Yeah. But it was a but it was a struggle to get those get a lot of, you know, black and brown artists for sure. Like I don't know where my place is. Yeah. So the success of the first year then allowed us way more latitude and way more freedom to go, Hey, you know uh you know, go back and push and say, look, this is a really great opportunity for your artists to expand their fan base.

Yeah. Um and you know, we uh in the second year we also um we realized there's an opportunity again to how do you expand? your um fingerprint in a community after you leave, not only giving a dollar river ticket sale to a local women's shelter, but having a stage for local artists in every market. You know, so just creating those opportunities, tons of tabling of various local organizations, um, you know, women's organizations.

Local and national, like just raising awareness, creating the space where there's open dialogue about all these things. Yeah. Inspiration från Brooklyn och världens godaste börjare, med keddar, piclad rödlök och en legendarisk kurseros. Hej, där är Sia och nu är det dags att vecka vara italienska känsling för OS Italien. Lysna på min italienska version av Du Gamla Dufria för att lyssna på låten, sök på mig på Spotify. Hej av limp! Från svenska spel, åldersklans 8 år stödlinjen.se

And the women that came through that festival, I mean pretty diverse and dynamic. So good. Can we talk about them just for a second? Like, okay, so we've got we've got Paula. We've got Sean. Incredible. We've got um Cheryl Crow. Yeah. Erica Badu, Michelle and Deglio Cello. Uh Queen Latifa. Missy Elliott. Missy Elliott. First time ever on tour. I know. That was a coup. How did you get Missy? Um well you'd have to ask Marty that. I mean he was the Yeah, that was above my pay grade. But um

Somehow he got Missy and uh that was that was awesome. I mean that footage of her coming out on stage like In the yeah in the giant when she was w when she uh wore that big when she garbage the big garbage bag stuff with like all the inflatable stuff and that style. So she's incredible. And and such an incredible And you saw the entire audience instantly stood up and was like, Oh, okay, wow, what is this? This is so much fun.

What about uh you had the indigo girls join? The indigo girls were such a an amazing anchor for me. Um they came on early on and kinda got everybody, you know feeling comfortable about singing together. Like I was still a good Canadian. Like I was f I was afraid to ask. I really wanted to sing with everybody, but I didn't quite know how to do it.

And it's funny watching the doc how Jewel was so s you know, said it exactly the same way. It's like I didn't know I was allowed to do that. Yeah. Um they're like, Oh no, why don't why don't why isn't everybody singing together? I'm like, Oh, we can do that. He's like, Well, yeah, let's go just go do it. Um and they so they just opened up this huge opportunity for all of us to really feel

a whole different kind of connection and that's when things really took off. And I also love what they say in the doc, uh the indigo girls are basically like, W you need some like openly gay girls here to to Teach you how to party. Um you had Pat Benatar. Yes. Emily Lou Harris. Emily Lou Harris. Bonnie Raid. Sinead O'Connor. Yeah.

I mean That was the part in the document. I mean I've seen so many iterations of this over the edits, but I cry every time. Tell me why. Well, because she's gone and she was such a gift. What was she like? She was really shy at the beginning, but wow did she open up. She was a little shit as well. Like she was super playful, s like a jokester, prankster. Um we had so much fun together and then to get to sing with her.

You know, it's like being in the presence of, you know, a goddess, basically. Uh, when she opens up her mouth and starts to sing, it's just It's otherworldly. Yeah. And I I got to be part of that and I got to sing with her a a number of nights and uh yeah, that was pretty magical. And then just, you know, getting to watch that, like all these moments that were so powerful and important to me and and and

watching myself grow up on screen. Like not a lot of humans get to have a gift like that given to them where it's like, this is such a powerful and important time in my life, um, that has been so succinctly and beautifully captured. Yeah. Um, so yeah, watching watching that's just she's She's gone now and I it's so sad. So sad. Such an incredible talent. Yeah. And she was, you know She she suffered even back then. Like she just She was really misunderstood and yeah.

You know, yeah, it's tough. Tracy Chapman, another beautiful artist, who I love in the documentary. You talk about how she was the one everyone one of many people that everyone came out and watched. Yeah. Oh every night I mean she was just talk about Grace. Yeah. Just as quiet. graceful presence. She was very shy too. Yeah. Um, it was kinda hard to draw her out. It's so funny that people who are performing, you know, it it's it's things we learn over and over again, obviously.

But we're reminded that people her performers are not necessarily extroverted. Yeah. Um Who's the most introverted? I mean who's the most introverted on that tour and who is the most extroverted? Uh Tracy is probably the most introverted. and extroverted. Um Maybe Cheryl. Um, I mean me, I was yeah, I was pretty extrovert. Actually, okay. I mean Amy and Emily.

For sure. Yeah. Because they were just loud, you know, they were loud and proud and let's have fun. Yeah. Um so they brought that really like they said, this really sort of geeky fan fan energy. Um and you had like you talked about Emily Lou Harris. um uh Bonnie Ray, Chrissy Hind. Yeah and and I don't know if you feel this way, but I know I do because in you know, I've ha I grew up in a generation where I feel like

women my age right now are working together all the time and feeling really good about that and loving that experience. And when you meet someone who's maybe ten years older than you, they just haven't had that experience very much. I've been on many sets where women um, in their mid sixties have said, Oh, I've n I've never, you know, been on a set with this many women. Well yeah, I mean they grew up at a time where we you know, i in whatever

industry we were in, we were being offered a tiny sliver of the pie. Yeah. And we were in competition with each other in every element, like it or not. And think about what they what they came up against. as they were coming up in the world. And that was even, you know, I wanna argue more toxic and more marginalizing towards women. Yeah. And, you know, you you just kinda had to deal with

Those were the social norms then. Yeah. Um, you know, you'd you'd walk into a radio station and get your ass grabbed. Fucking hell. Or or just knowing that that made happen, or just the comments, you know, like and it Yeah. You know what I mean? I think we blocked it out.

Yeah. Well, because it was normalized. Totally. And you just you suck it up and you keep going because well, if you make us think about it, then you're you're pushed out even further into the margins. Yeah. And you're hanging out in a room full of boys. Yeah. And if you want to be in that room You kinda need to tow the line. It was the same thing. I was, you know, thinking about that, um, like Ann Powers is in the documentary. Yeah. You know, I didn't like Anne Powers back then because she

Rip the shit out of us. And I'm like, are you kidding me? And she kind of claims it, right? She's like, I didn't get it. She's like, she couldn't have though, because she's in a room full of guys and she was a single woman f female critic. Like I forgive her because I understand now I didn't at the time. I'm like How could you be doing this? But the room that she was in was her male counterparts, and if she You know, spoke.

appreciatively or in reverence to what we were doing, she would have been ostracized. Yeah, we all suffered at we all suffered in in our twenties, in the nineties. with deep internalized misogyny that we didn't even know we had in an attempt to assimilate. We were like, I wanna be in the room, I wanna figure out how to m work the system and I'm gonna, without even knowing, I'm gonna

buy into a system that I don't believe in and that's actually hurting me. And I what I love about Ann Powers, who's a journalist in the film, who kind of owns up to the fact that she wrote about you know wrote about how she didn't wasn't getting Lil's fair and it wasn't for her, she realizes like much later on that she was grappling with her own like

sense of trying to fit in. Yeah. I mean, Lilfair got teased. Like ridiculed. Did you care about that at the time? How did you how did we feel? Um it was it was hurtful, it was annoying, but I just kept going back to the fact that well You obviously haven't come. Yes. And seen it and felt it. Because if you had, you'd think differently. So I just cause like, well.

You can have your opinion, but I'm having the time of my life. No kidding. And I don't want to You're missing out, sorry. Yeah, it's Yes, that's right. And i I loved how you guys did press conferences in every city that you went to. Did you ever think about not doing them? No, because there w there was a

There were two elements to that. There was one to, you know, th the press wanted access. We understood that that was part of the beach that you have to feed. Yeah. Um, and the the beautiful thing is at the end of the press conference we got to give attention to

a local woman's shelter. Yeah. You know, to sort of raise awareness for the issues that they were dealing with and to show that we were and not to be self congratulatory, but to show that we were giving money to this and to raise awareness for it. Yeah. Um and I tell you the it felt so good to have that cherry at the end of this, you know, typically annoying and demeaning and uh dumb press conference where I just got besieged every day with

you know, why? Why do you hate men? Why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you doing that? You're too much of this. You're not enough of that. Very typical. Don't be too pretty. Don't be too loud. Oh, you're too you know, you're too quiet. Like y you can't win. And that was that thing that I hadn't experienced until I was, you know, in in this

this quiet radical movement that we were Yeah. That we were doing of just, you know, just basically being ourselves and celebrating each other and celebrating the success that we were all having and appreciating that and lifting each other up. Again, like why is that so radical? Why is that so threatening? It was it was kind of shocking. Yeah. Um yeah, the press conferences were painful, but they were also um

an important thing to do. I mean you handled those conferences from what I saw really, really well. For the most part, yeah. You really did. Was it hard sometimes to be running the festival while you were in it?'Cause everybody else kind of gets to come in and like Have a good time. I wasn't running it. Uh Dan Fraser was running it. I mean he had a hell of a job.

You know To your point, you're I'm the face of it for sure. And you have to worry about stuff like Yeah. You know, it's like having the house party, right? Yeah. There were a ton of day to day decisions that had to be made. There were a ton of fires that had to be put out. Someone didn't show up, someone

someone slept with someone else or, you know, it there was just like and then and then they were like someone was angry and hurt or someone said something that hurt someone's feelings and you had to deal with like HR.

Was there an HR? Great. Me. You were H me and Dan. There was no freaking HR. We were all just like, okay, shit. And we managed to you put on a blazer and you were like, okay, let's talk. You know, it's like it was kind of Julie the cruise director, yeah. You know, who was saying hi to everybody.

Everybody, making sure everybody felt good. Yeah. Um, writing letters to every new artist and it seems like a hundred and some artists in one year, you know. So it's just this constant flow of meeting new people and making sure everybody was great. And um and then yeah, putting out the fires of the day.

or just being involved in all these little decisions that come you know, we kinda had to make on a daily basis. So yeah, it was exhausting and all encompassing. But, you know, again, the the gift at the end was like I I got to watch all these artists, I got to perform with all these artists. Okay, so we do this thing on the um on the pod where we ask people who know our guests to speak well behind their backs.

Um, and to give me a question to ask them. So we talked to Cheryl Crow this morning. Oh my gosh. I know and it was so fun and so fun to talk to her about those times and you guys performing together. And you know, I was saying to her, You know, it was just it's so it was just And it will never get old watching you all be each other's fans, you know, like you're you're an artist and you're also a fan and she's such an incredible talent and

She wanted me to ask you two questions, which I thought were really interesting questions to ask. They're kind of opposite, but also feel like they're in the same world. One is, If you were not making music, did you ever think of what else you would do? Um, ever so briefly, because I don't know what else I would do. Um I don't um Either a hairdresser or um a jewelry designer.

Woo. Which honestly I still kinda do. Do you do design? Door? Yeah, just really simple stuff. Like I made last two Christmases ago I made like thirty necklaces for all my friends and Oh, I'm crafty. You're a crafter. Um, you know, I need something to do with my hands or they're in my mouth. Yeah. It's not healthy. I love that. Okay. And and and that makes sense hairdresser too, because you like touching people's hair. Yeah.

you know for your daughters? Yeah. Yeah. A are you good at a blow do a good blowout? Um I'm I do a pretty good blowout, yeah. Yeah. Do you like I like the French braids and the Oh, you can do the intricate stuff. Yeah. Well done. Yeah. Okay. And then so that was one question. And then the other question was, did you have a sense um did you know deep down

You know, people ask this question from a lot of artists, but was there some part of you that knew that you were gonna make it, that you were gonna be famous? Was Cheryl's question. But like, was there a part of you that sensed that or knew that? No. No, I can honestly say no. And mostly because I didn't even know what that meant. Yeah. I did not know what that looked like. I did not come from a culture of celebrity, of looking at famous people and and

you know, hoping to achieve that. Yeah. My thing was I wanna do something that makes me feel good. Yeah. It was so naive and so simple. But it's pure. And and pure. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, you know, again, this sort of blissful um time in the world where we could kind of just figure it out, figure out as we go. Yeah. Um and we were

there were so many more opportunities uh to just, you know, to fumble around and try and figure it out. Like I just feel like even both my daughters, there's just so much pressure to decide, you know, what university to go to. And you kind of have to make a decision about the whole trajectory of your life. And I'm like, Oh my God, half my friends in my fifties still don't have a clue what they're doing. You know, I just got really, really lucky that I had this.

you know, this path that I kind of got offered I got offered the golden ticket at nineteen and it's like, well, this will be fun. I'll go do this.

And my dad said, listen, if this doesn't work out, our college is still it's always gonna be there. But this will not. You gotta try it. And of course I wanted to, but yeah, I didn't. It's funny, in my yearbook, someone wrote Destined to Become a Famous Rock Star, which is hilarious. And I'm just like, ha ha ha, yeah. But we didn't know what that even looked like. I know. I know. That's very woo-woo. I know. Destined to become a famous rock star. Yeah.

Somebody knew. Yeah, yeah. So I guess it's combo but see the you know, other people can see things that you can't see too often, right? Yeah. And you talk about your daughters too, and I love the beautiful aspect that your daughter sings on this. Yeah, that was a great full circle moment for why why? Um well because they you know, they they're they both have beautiful voices. They won't sing around me and I guess because

you know, I uh I sing and that's often the case with kids. They kinda try and go the opposite. But we cannot deny they both have beautiful voices. Um but the song in particular, one in a long line, it's the last song I wrote and I think it was this you know, looking at what's going on in the world and the erosion of women's rights, not only here but all over the world. And

thinking about what do I need to say. I I I feel like now is not the time to be silent or complacent. Like I I've always, you know, tread that line carefully and not been political, but I'm like, I I have to say something about this. I'm just I'm so frustrated and angry and scared and Uh I have two daughters and they're they're going into the world and you know

we we need to speak loudly about the things that we believe in, even even though I was afraid to. Um so and I've always used music as my vehicle to for expression. Yeah. So um that song to have both my daughters sing on that with me just felt really powerful. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. And what was it like being in the studio with each other, the stud? Well, we actually weren't. It was in my daughter's

phone in my daughter's bedroom on my iPhone because Perfect. Yeah, it was kind of at the I wrote that song right at the end of the record and um, you know, Will was actually uh mixing the rest of the record and trying to trying to organize my kids. You know, there's a bit of convincing to get him to do it in the first place.

Okay, like we're mixing the record. Will needs these tracks now. So we just actually sat in the bedroom with my eldest and she sang it. She just put headphones on it. I phones are amazing for that now. Yeah. Um and then Taja, my little one, went down into the studio. She wouldn't let me near her when she did it.

Yeah, I was wondering if they would let you watch. No. Yeah. But my twenty thir three year old, you know, just earnest, full voiced sang right in front of me, so uninhibited, it was so beautiful. And again, this is Deeply more powerful because of the challenges and the struggles that we've been through for so many years as mother and firstborn daughter. Yeah. Because it was tough.

What what what what did you what have you been learning about being the mother of a daughter of daughters? Like but what was what was tough about it? what I know now to be able to go back, you know, without feeling yourself knowing what you know now. Um I would have been I would have been softer on her in a different way. I was a hard ass. Mm. And in it's funny because

so clearly in my own mind that I was being the antithesis of my mother. And I looked at the way she parented and I thought, I'm gonna do everything completely different. And then her words come spewing out of your mouth in a moment of anger and frustration. You're like, oh my God, I can't believe I did that. Um But I just you know, I th she

was undiagnosed, um sh we thought she had ADHD and w you know, when things got hard this wall would go up and she'd just rage and be so frustrated. And so, you know, I looked at that and going, How do we, how do I help you with this? How do we move past this? Because the world out there is scary and big and you have to have some grit.

And you have to do hard things so that you know you can. So I was tough. And what we didn't realize is that was it was actually anxiety and all this came out. We did family systems counseling and Peeling back all those layers of the onion. Yeah. The way I was communicating to her, like was just making her feel shitty about herself instead of building her up, which was completely the opposite of what I thought I was doing. So, you know, I had to eat a lot of humble pie and

Take stock and go, Okay, look, I want a relationship with my kid. So I need to learn how to communicate differently with her. And in doing so, she also got to take some responsibility for the way she was reacting and recognizing that that's not where I was coming from anyway. So it's It was a long process but it was beautiful and powerful and we have

such an open, loving relationship now because of that. Um it's so great, Sarah, that you talk about this. I just have to say because it's the way that women help each other constantly is to just like break free from the narrative that we are getting everything right as mothers. Like it's it's it's like a joke. It's such a joke. But but it's really hard. It's a it's it's kind of the last round. We all live in constant judgment. You know, it's like absolutely

grocery store floor. That's right. It's like, oh my God, corral that kid. You're a bad parent because you're doing this or you're doing that or not doing this. It's like, again, just constant Judgment. Constant judgment and pressure and the most coming from within on ourselves. For sure. And anytime we share any version of that out loud, or just even in our friend group, like you just feel this feeling that everyone wants to say like

That's an exhale. Yes, you know. Me too. I'm feeling that too. What you know, like it's it's wild how we still do this to ourselves. Over and over I mean, we get it done to us, of course, too, but we do it to ourselves. There's an alarm uh there's a siren right there coming to pick us up'cause we're such bad moms. I mean it's like it's the same thing with menopause. You know, like it just there was no conversation about it and

Just, you know, all the changes that we go through. Um, and thank goodness, like I I kinda love social media for that now because there are so many platforms that women are now talking about this and all and and doctors are finally paying attention to the hundreds of thousands of women who suffered and who went through all sorts of shit and the doctors just like, hey, you know, it's just it's just a thing. Just suck it up.

Yeah, it's like, Is my frozen shoulder because of menopause? And doctors are like, We'll never know. Yeah. And like you don't know. Yeah, they're like, huh, maybe. Oh, if men could bleed. You know that things would be very, very different. That would be a good um heavy metal um band name, if men could bleed. A double bill. If men could bleed and skinny puppies.

Um okay, I got a few um rapid fire for you. Okay. First of all, how do how do you what's your sleep routine? I love to ask. People this. Do you love to sleep? I love to sleep. Are you good at sleeping? I'm re yes, I'm good at sleeping now that I'm on estrogen and progesterone. Totally because of big shit. Yeah. Yeah. And do you take any sleep? Um do you take anything to go to sleep? Nope. And what's your ritual to go to sleep?

Well, you know what? Red light therapy has been my friend. I hold on, talk to me about it. I have. I I don't know about that. I have a massage table and I basically have this i uh like six foot long panel of red light, especially because you know, when I'm skate skiing three hours a day as I was doing a lot, like your body needs your muscles need to same for the far skate skiing? Yeah, you know, like it's like c like cross country.

So there's classic, which is in the grooves, and skate is on the corduroy. And it's like you know biathlon and you said four words, I don't know. Grooves and corduroy. Are you on ice skates? No, no, it's class it's like It's like cross country skiing. It's on these little matchsticks. Okay. And um you just you kind of they're long like cross country skates, but instead of being in the two You just said skates again. So you're on skates or skis? They're skate skis.

So what they are is a very narrow, long We don't We don't have those here. You do. We do not. I have been to Colorado, I don't know how many years in a row skate skiing. So you do. Okay, okay. Um it's a big thing.

Incredible. So it's so fun. I just I love li I'm love being outdoors. I love nature. I would be outside all the time if I could, it just gets a little too cold. But you know, to be able to be for four hours outside in the snow, in the mountains. Yes. Like just finding frozen lakes and going on. It's magical and the coolest part about where I live is you can take my dog.

That's awesome. Yeah. So doing a lot of that. Anyway, so skate ski yeah, so I exhaust myself if I can. That's right. Climbing hills or incredible. You know, jumping in lakes, whatever. So skate ski. Um And then so usually I spend like fifteen minutes before I go to bed just lying under this light'cause it just calms and it's just a red light. Yeah. Red light therapy. Ooh. Yeah, infrared. You heal faster. I'm I'm serious. So I do that. Not every night, but most nights.

Um you know, I don't really have much of a ritual. I d I try to stop drinking water around five o'clock so I don't have to get up in the middle of the night and pee. Oh yeah. So I front load as best of my abilities. Um But you know, I usually go to bed around nine.

Oh, that's what I'm talking about. That's kind of it. There's nine P.M. That is a winner's that's a winner's time. Honestly, ten is probably a little more realistic, but I try to go to bed at nine, especially in in the winter. Um and you know, I'll shut a little show. Not much. Not especially when you have to get up at six. Shut it down. Go to bed at nine. Wake up at six. Feel like a hero.

I see so much less in a house. My dream is to eat dinner at six thirty and then walk right into the bedroom and early bird special. I try and eat around five, five, five thirty and then just Start to shut her down. And shut her down. Okay. Rapid fire. Here we go. Who do you predict is gonna be your Spotify raped this year? Like who are the musicians you're listening to the most on your like if we were Phoebe Bridgers. Ah.

Yeah. The best. Yeah. Or boy genius or of you know complex. Who would definitely be would be on like a current version of Lil Affair if there existed one. And and in in some ways, Boy Genius is the Oh you've got three amazing musicians, singers, songwriters, independently unique and beautiful, all choosing to come together to be a a powerhouse trio. Yeah. It's awesome. Best Canadian city. Ooh, I'm gonna get in trouble, Vancouver. What's the best thing about being Canadian and non American?

That is so baiting. Sorry, don't worry about it. Forget it, forget it. Forget it. Um Healthcare. Yeah. Healthcare. Surfing or paddleboarding? Surfing. So you surf? Yeah. I was surfing since I was thirty. And then um, you were on S N L and Rudy Gi Giuliani was the host. Oh my god, I remember that. Yeah. So it was Sarah McLaughlin and Rudy Giuliani in nine in nineteen back again. In nineteen ninety seven. Yeah. What do you remember about your experience? Was that the only time you were on SNL?

I have I feel maybe like I was on twice, but I'm not sure. Hon honestly I rem what I remember is Anna Gangster and like, you know, basted in blood doing that. That was w I don't know if that was really what you would do. Lilith uh uh Not the Lilith one, no. But basted in Blood, which was the Thanksgiving song.

I I got I got to participate in that. Wait, you were in that? I was in it, yeah. Okay, this is really interesting. Anna used to play a character on S N L called Cinder Calhoun. Yes, Cinder Calhoun was a very earnest um You know, kind of like singer songwriter. Progressive singer songwriter. And she sang a song called Basted in Blood. Let's watch it. Honest such a good

Oh my god. This is so good. I remember this. Oh my god. This is so good. Well, I'm so grateful that you came here. You are always ahead of your time. And I can't wait to see what you do next. And congrats on all the good things that are happening now. And it means a lot that you came by. So thank you so much. Happy to be here. Wow, thank you so much, Sarah McLaughlin. You are so cool and interesting and and

So fun to talk to and uh it really took me down memory lane there. And you know, for this polar plunge, I just wanted to remind everybody how badass Pat Benatar is. That's all. Just how amazing her voice is and how great of an artist she is. And like Sarah has just always been this, you know, woman kind of making music on her own terms and um

She was I think probably Pat Benatar and New Edition were my the f first two concerts I saw when I was in middle school. And um I saw Pat Benatar at the Orpheum in Boston in I don't know, I was I think maybe I was a freshman in high school. And uh her husband, Neil Geraldo, lead guitarist, still together. Um, so anyway, that's all. Just using this time to say, Pat, if you're listening, I love you.

Please come on the show. And everybody else listening, here's to all the great music we had growing up and all the great music we have now and all the great music yet to come. Music will save us. Okay, bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman, and

Amy Polar. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paperkite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullen, and Alea Zaniris. For Paperkite, production by Joel Lovell and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.