Ryan Coogler

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Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Good Hang. This is a this is a good one. We were thrilled when this person wanted to talk to us. Ryan Kugler, the incredible director. Um, Sinners, Black Panther, Creed, Fruitville, Station just so'em everything, all the good things. And um we we we're gonna talk about so many things today. We're gonna talk about um football. We're gonna talk about Jurassic Park. Uh we're gonna talk about uh how vampires are sexier than zombies.

And we are gonna get in in the minutiae of the beautiful film Sinners that is up for all the awards and should win all the awards. So I loved this conversation with Ryan and um And uh can't wait for you to hear it. And we always start these episodes by speaking to somebody who knows our guests. who gives me a question to ask them and speaks well behind their back.

And joining me today is Ludwig Jorensen. Um Ludwig is a a uh uh well just the most preeminent composer, has made music on all the films that you love. Uh and and makes uh you know is a record producer and and and just is so super talented. And they um he and Ryan have been working together forever, so we're gonna join Ludwig and I'm gonna try out a little bit of my Swedish.

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Jag mår bra. Bra, tack. Hur kan du prata svenska? Jag vet att du har gjort massa svenska grejer, men hur? Var är din connection med Sverige? Yes, my brother lives in Stadsund. Okay. So nice to meet you. Thank you for doing this. Yeah. Where where are we talking to you from right now? Uh I'm in uh uh my studio in LA, Los Angeles. Excellent. And are you working on something right now?

Yes, I'm uh well, you know, new new projects. New Can you tell us what it is or a secret? No, no, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm in the world of Chris Chris Nolan right now, so Just uh Yeah, that's that's taking up my time and It's it's really fun. Well, we're we're talking to you uh we're talking to Ryan Kugler today. We're thrilled to talk to him. I'm s a huge fan and I'm really excited. And one of the things I've been learning as I've been getting to know him is how

dedicated he is to the people he works with and how he has really long relationships with the people that he works with. And you two met in at USC together? Yeah, we met at USC 2000. Early two thousand eight, I believe. Yeah. What was your first impression of him? Do you remember meeting? Yeah, of course. Um I was when I first moved to LA, I moved I lived in Culver City and every everyone in America told me that you need you need to move you need to get a car, right?

You need to have a c car, but I thought all silly Americans they don't they don't get the idea of walking, right? So but I I quickly understood that like the bus does just doesn't come, right? So So I moved to USC to live close to campus. I could walk from

And I and it ended up I ended up moving into like a fraternity house. It was that was only open for grad students. And uh it literally felt like I didn't know what fraternity was at the time, but like I literally felt like I moved into a uh American Pie movie. Yeah. So one night we had a party. Ryan came over and we ended up playing pool together and hi he had and I remember uh Ryan had these hu super long locks, you know, down to his to his back. Uh and kind of

You know, kind of muscle muscular in a way because he had just you know, he had just come from uh uh football. He played football for Sack State for college. So he'd You know, so that and and we started talking, playing pool, um, and then I remember specifically talking about music. And he wa he had a lot of knowledge about we talked about Swedish artists. Yes. Uh, and that's kind of what we kind of started bonding over, uh, music and then that translated into film and and so

Um we yeah, we sh we just we were just kind of college kids in the beginning started just hanging out at parties and talking about music and film. Was there a moment when you decided we're gonna kind of work together forever. Like you know, it's one thing to like each other's taste, but sometimes w people work a certain way that doesn't

You know, connect with the way you like to work. How do you two like to work together and why does it work? The first score I did was for a little f um feature uh or the student film he had called Locks and I I played guitar on that and and he was like he was bl It was just so funny because I remember his reaction when he first heard his my music for his little short film and he was like blown away. It's like oh my god, I can't believe

someone writes m like music for the for my film and and it sound you know, and that and I was like always uh you know, I was kinda worried he was not gonna like it first. So when he was just blown away, I get that reaction it was just so It was so fun and that and then Every time we were together it was like it was he had he had such an

It was it was like such a um he was so passionate about his work and and uh and it was always so fun, right? So and we and we so b we both are uh like addic uh addictive, but like we love our work, right? And and when you get to combine that friendship with with with work, uh, so that that's that's that's that makes it very special. You can hang out with your with your buddies, right, while work.

Can I geek out with you for a second on three films? Fruit Veil Um, Black Panther and Sinners. When you think of those three films, what instrument comes up in your mind first for each? Uh Fruitvale was guitar. 'Cause I knew I was uh like Ryan I knew how much L Ryan loved guitar, you know? And and I guess I never really thought about why he loves the guitar.

And I never understood why he loves it until like we started working on Sinners. And it's like I understand like okay, well his uncle, you know, was a bla a great blues um um he he loved blues music and he always played blues. And obviously in blues music, the guitar is the the main instrument, right? So Ryan kind of grew up listening to that music. And it's always been in his in his in his bones and in his mind. And

My dad is a guitar player and it was blues music that changed my dad's life to become a a a blues guitar player. In nineteen sixty four he bought his first my dad bought his first blues album, John Lee Hooker. And that music, you know, f coming from the other side of the world to Sweden.

his life to become a uh a guitar player and that obvious and that made my ma you know, he put a guitar in my hands when I was seven. So it's it's kind of a full circle there. Um that's really cool. Yeah. So with with prevalence I would say the guitar is is is the main the main instrument. Um and Black Panther It's the the the the talking drums. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't really know what talking drums are. Could you explain? Yeah, it's it's uh it's kinda first type of

communication device. It's the first telephone. So in in in in Africa and in and I was specifically I went to Senegal and West Africa. Um but this but talking drum exists in in so many different um regions than the than Africa. But it's it's it's basically a a drum that that you can play message. Because it's it's very small and you you can breathe and you can squeeze it to have different pitches.

Um so with uh these different pitches and this these different rhythms you can talk. It's almost like Morse Morse code, you know, but

I thought analog on a drum. Um and in every village they would have a talking drum that would relay messages to the the the the to everyone. You y he would stand in the middle, he or she would stand in the middle and then play And they would you could tell oh, the king has died or or we someone's back from being gone for a long time or you know, everyone get together and so and I met this incredible musician in in Senegal, Massam Badio.

who uh who's who um put together an an amazing talk and drum crew and and we recorded a bunch of stuff in In Senegal. Um, and I also and it's like one one one thing that I thought was so interesting was like how would you say Tachella's drum, Tachella's name on that instrument, on that. Oh wow. Very cool. And for singers, yeah, it's guitar again and we're back to where it all started. Yeah, and Buddy Guy and and who was in the film and who I wanna talk to Ryan about. Uh it's just like

a a ama amazing, like an amazing moment at the end of the film. Yeah. Thank you for talking about Ryan and I'm really excited to talk to him today. Do you have a question uh for me before we go that you think would be fun for me to ask. It's it could be big or small. It could be asking him a story to tell. It could be a private joke of your many years together. Or it could be something about the film or Anything at all. I mean you could ask him

You know, because when we were doing Sinners, he was he was practicing guitar. He was playing almost every day, you know. He had a guitar in his office. He had he took it with him when he moved to New Orleans for for production. So You know, and and I spent s I spent a little not a lot of time, but a little time on on with him just like showing him how how uh certain riffs was going and

So, you know, that's something you could you could check in with them, like how how how's his uh chops coming along? Perfect. Perfect. Okay. And only because the movie's over doesn't mean that he just need you know, does does it does it does he d that he doesn't need to keep it up. Yeah. Right. Right. That Ludwig says like, you know, you just can't put it down. Like w next time I see you I expect you to be I expect you to have improved.

Yeah, yeah, great. Well thank you so much for your time. It really means a lot that we got you in in in in what I know is probably a busy day with a young up and coming filmmaker, Christopher Nolan. I wish him the best. And um Just such a fan of your work and really, really appreciate your time, Lydvick. Really nice to meet you. Very nice to meet you too, and I hope to see you maybe in Sweden uh next time. Anytime. And uh uh Ayo? Ayo? Ayo? Ayo. Ayo. Yes. Okay. Thank you so much.

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Ryan Cooper is here. I am so so happy. Thank you so much for doing this. Thanks for having me. This is this is this amazing. I I can't believe I got I got invited here. Are you kidding? Are you kidding? We're thrilled you wanted to do this. And I just gotta start by saying like

I'm gonna glaze you a little bit in the beginning. But what uh of the uh what we were talking when I was thinking about what what what I wanted to talk to you about today, like the big thematic thing is that and what I love about your work and your characters is that you don't limit the possibilities of what you want to do as an artist and what your characters could do. Like you're really into the idea of almost

open borders in terms of in terms of in terms of what people can do and also like what's in them. Basically what's in in them. And I feel like that comes from I've, you know, been reading so much about you and watching, of course, everything you make and It feels like you're really into this idea of making sure that you get influences from everywhere. Like that that really informs you. Why do you think it's important to be influenced all the time by many different things? I think um for me.

I'm interested in like a lot of different things. You know, um, and and all of my experience is definitely like informed. me um w where I where I find myself, right? Yeah. Um and I think that y w what I what I do and the the you know, the the position I occupy um in the industry is is is

you know, I I'm I'm trusted to to make things that can go into theaters and and um uh and and work for people from a lot of different backgrounds and and environments and circumstances, right? Yeah. So I think um I think Like what I have to do is I have to stay true to um to myself and and what I like And and and also consider

um, you know, what what people came up consuming, if that makes sense. Is that is that is that is that it does it does and you and and what you're saying is is really interesting too because as an artist you have the kind of like you're s you have such a strong instinct about what you want. Yeah. And yeah, it's almost like you

Can't f you almost want to forget who you're making it for. But what I love about your work is you don't. Well yeah, yeah. You don't. Yeah, no, no, no, for sure. Cause I I cause I can't, right? Like like um, you know, I fell in m I fell in love with movies. like at at the multiplex. You know what I mean? I ain't go to I didn't go to a art house theater or to a film festival till I was like

a a fully backed adult. You know what I'm you know what I'm saying? Like shit. When you were a kid, what did you uh what did you eat at the movies? What w tell me about your movie experience? What would Ryan would you bring stuff in, sneak stuff in? Would you get it there? I can neither confirm or deny any snack smuggling.

But but if I but if I did I might have brought a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or two, you know what I mean? Like I was I was that was what I would do if I wasn't in that. Um But but but but no like I I used to like to I used to like it was a period in time where they used to let you weigh the candy. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you pay about weight. Yeah. And um and I I would I would do experiments trying to see like what candy was lighter.

That look that look crazy which candy was heavier, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, we a exactly, exactly. We ain't we in there with limited funds, you know? Um and shout saw to uh to to um Uh all the cinemas that used to let us stay. Once we bought one thing, you know, uh we could go ahead and go and they weren't tripping off us going to see something else. Yeah. Get a little bang for your buck. But but no, my my my go to was peanut MMs. Mm-hmm. Um I'm not a big soda soda person.

But like but like when they started to let you mix and match the drinks I I got involved with that. You know. Um Yeah, so so so but yeah, it was it was peanut M and M's and then and then and then obviously the junior mints, if they if they in the freezer. You know, like if they got'em in the freezer then then I'm then I'm gonna do it. Like the you I know you've talked about it, but like it's so important for you to for films to live in theaters. Why is it so important for you?

Man, you you you you uh this is really cool. We're talking about this. Um no I I I I I just love how um how how uh I mean she is a word egalitarian. Like like but I I love how it's just you you in there you in there with a bunch of different types of people. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's teenagers in there'cause that's the only place I could go be alone. Mm-hmm. Um, it's it's uh it's retired couples, you know what I mean? Like it's it's it's groups of friends, depending on the movie you

you gonna see but everybody's in there together. Yeah. And and when a movie's and when a movie is is is great, you know, everybody kinda unifies. Yeah. You know, like like you feel you could feel everybody's energy focus on the same thing. Yeah. And what I what I actually really love about it, that I learned about myself um since since like the streaming era, is like when I get when I get overwhelmed.

Whether it's something's too funny or um something's scary or I got too much anxiety or I'm too like I'm too like like turned on by while I'm looking at or whatever, I pause. Almost like immediately, you know Yeah. Maybe I'm gonna miss something'cause I'm laughing too hard or or um out of a out of a worry that like

I'ma get too worked up and I'm gonna have a fucking heart attack or something. Yeah. Okay, right on I'ma have a I'ma have a heart attack or something, you know, so I'm gonna I'm gonna have a fucking panic attack. I'll pause. Yeah. But like it was was dope. in the theaters you can't pause. That's so. You know, like you it's no so so when something's happening that that has you like feeling like you

You you out of control, you still gotta you still gotta go with it. That feeling of giving yourself over to something that you don't have to control to pause, rewind, or fast forward, like that, that is. a really you know, it's a really nice feeling. Like you come from you come from from the city. Well well you know, you make you're making me remember like when I went to the movie theater t w two, what also happened was like from Like I wanted to be funny.

So also it was a place where you could be kinda funny. Like you know, you'd have a A moment, a quiet moment. You know, like especially in the like in the trailers. Not so much in the movies. Sometimes people wouldn't like it. But in the trailer, a mo a trailer would come out and someone would be like Nope, you know, or whatever, whatever. And you After after the trailer. Yeah. Or you know, or something like so and you get to get a laugh.

In a group. Yeah. Like you'd get like that was sometimes like a lot of people's first life. Oh, that's awesome. I never thought about this. And also in movie theaters, a lot of action happens like your first date. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're scared, you grab someone's hand. The first time I held someone's hand was in a movie theater.

Like it is it so intimate. It's so cool. Who were the what were the movies when you were like what were the movies that you can remember as a young person going in and walking out of that theater and feeling like you had been completely transformed? Yeah, it it'll be it'll be um two big ones. Boys in the hood. Um, and I was I was a baby in there, man. Like like younger than younger than my younger than my eldest kid is now.

And she can't get through a Pixar movie without being like, Dad, it's too crazy, you know. Now my dad had me like wagging in the hood, like right here, shunning, you know. I'm like, I'm like four years old, like, ah, oh shit. Um, but then uh, but then uh uh Beauty and the Beast. Yeah. Um and then and then Malcolm Ash. Yeah. Um all of these was like kindergarten first grade. Uh and then and then I I would say, I would say probably

One of the biggest ones was Jurassic Park. Mm-hmm. We s we saw Jurassic Park when Oakland still had a drive in. Um, and I I was I remember being in I rem I remember being in the c in the car. Like um and y I used to hook the uh speakers up to the window. Yeah. And I'm in there and and it's the scene where uh the T Rex scene at night. You know, I think comes out. They in a they in a they in a car driving away from me and then got the shot.

in the um in the in the uh like side view mirror where it says objects may be closer than they appear and a T-Rex is right on them screaming and I and I'll look at I'll look at I'll look at my side view mirror and it's got the same shit written on it. So I'm I'm like, ah like I it's just gonna be a T you know I mean like a T Rex jumping off. You know, I I I'll never like I'll never forget. I'll never forget that shit, man. And like

I I got addicted to that feeling. Yes, yes. Um, so I got the opportunity now to try to to to attempt to give people that feeling, you know. You talk so you mentioned Oakland, you grew up in Oakland. You're going to school there.

You're really good at sports. You're really good at sports. I was I was all right, yeah. Okay. Uh you you're a really good fo what position did you play? Um, in college I play a receiver. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I re I retire and kicks, play receiver. Um in When you're a receiver and you're in college, are you always worried about your hands?

Like, you know, do you when you're like out and you're like I can't do that? Like a nah we didn't I didn't think about it like that. You don't treat your hands like No, I didn't. I didn't. Okay, okay. Yeah, I got I yeah, no. We was I mean we always like But I mean it feels like it like it would be like you didn't get No that's I mean if I was smart I w I would have it would like I was like seventeen, yeah. You know what I mean I wasn't tripping like like like um I was

I was literally like slamming my hand in car doors and shit. Right. Right. Like so it wasn't it wasn't really something we was about. I should have been thinking about it. But like now the kids get paid, which is great. Yeah, yeah. You know, um, I was on scholarship, which is like the most you could do legally, you know what I mean? Like at the time and and um

And I was like, I was like thrilled that I could pay for school because my parents was busting their ass to put me through put me through private school most of my most of my life. Um so yeah, I was just I was thrilled, man. I I was not thinking about my my hands. No, you were and well did you love that?

Did you love that feeling of playing foot? Like what was so great? Oh yeah, I loved you. And were you you're a Raiders fan growing up, obviously? Yeah, like like in the in the bay I was agnostic. Do you have any posters on your wall? Did young Ryan have posters on I I d I did. I did. Who were they of athletes or were they uh artists? Athletes, artists. I had a I had them all like um Who'd you have? No, I had Scrazy. I had Jerry Rice. Oh yeah. Um I I had Tim Hardaway. Where were you around TMC?

Um, you know, down the road. You know, I would get I would get into like into like other athletes like Hakeem Elajuan was a big one for me. Um, you know, and if and then football wise, I s once I started playing receiver. I just love you know I liked all the receivers, man. Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, um, Tim Brown, you know, Steve Smith, who is Steve Smith I love cause he was like short like I was, you know.

And we're still out there making it happen. It's interesting, like athletes just like any anyone else, or like I find looking for people that rep like look like them. Absolutely. That that are that are good. Because it's like I absolutely yeah. But I mean I I also knew that I like you know, I would I would meet players like

um like Maurice Jones Drew or or Marshawn Lynch, like pit players I would play against and I'll be like, man, they got a lot better than me. You know what I mean? Like, you were like, oh, they're gonna be like you you come across players that's like, oh that's something different. Having there. And and and that was kinda how how I also kinda could see earlier maybe football wasn't gonna be what I did favorite. How about Marshawn being like a comedy star now? Yeah. Was he always funny?

I mean he not funny when you trying to tackle me. You know what I'm saying? I used to really play against him. You know like we came across each other a lot. Um, and he would, he would, he would, he would actually, or in high school, he was trying to guard me. So I was dealing with him on offense and defense. I had some success. On an offensive side, I guess he

But like like tryna tryna tackle that man was impossible. So like yeah, he was not funny on the field. But but but yeah, as a as a as a person, man, he h he hilarious. You know what I mean? Like his whole family is like that though. Yeah, yeah. You know, like like our family's from the same. From the same part of Auckland and he yeah, his mom hilarious, you know what I mean? Like his brothers

You know, um yeah But d how do you go from so you're playing and you're a finance major and then you you switch to becoming a film major? No, like so so you leave and go to US C after you pl after Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah y so so um

I went to I went to high school I went to I went to high school in in Berkeley. Yeah. And at this point I was living in Richmond, another city. Yeah. That that's even that's even more blue collar than Auckland, right? Yeah. Um and I I got I got a a a a scholarship

to a school called St. Mary's College, Rich in a Bay. I had a teacher there, Rosemary Graham, who who read something that I wrote in a creative writing class and was like, yo, you should write screenplays. But at that time I was a chemistry major. So I figured I was gonna try to be a doctor or something, right? And then um

But the chemistry labs was not working out with my football practices. I was having a real tough time. So I was like, yo, I gotta get out this chemistry shit so I can keep my keep my scholarship. And um that f that football program collapsed. So I got another scholarship to Sacramento State. Went there and Imagined in finance, but I took I took filmmaking classes on the side. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I'm when I've been learning about you, like you USC that you meant

so many people that that's everybody. It's like talking about t talking about a team. It's where you met your team. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah that's how so I was grad school. Um he and I met um I mean, I guess the out of all the people I worked with, Ludwig was who I met first, um, Ludwig Jorenson, my composer, and then um my co writer on on Cree Aaron Covington. Um

And then I'm eventually I'll meet Sev O'Hanyan. Yeah. Your producing partner. Yeah, who works with me and Zinzi at proximity. And you met your beautiful wife Zinzi there. Well Zinzi, I met in Auckland. Like I met I met I met. Oh, you met well you guys met when you were like thirteen. I was thirteen, yeah. You guys grew up together.

We grew up together. I'm thinking it's so amazing uh when you talk about all the stuff that you make, um, you talk about the people that you make it with, which in my opinion, um, like really I don't know, I I I so respect artists who remind people that what they make is a communal effort. Oh yeah. But people don't always wanna do that, right? Like they don't want they sometimes they that's just not their first instinct. And it really is. And I know Zinzi

your films with you and how important i is she uh in terms of like your process? How how do you guys work together? We just like since we so so so we started dating in high school, we broke up for a little bit. And then um what happened there? I mean you know that's not for the podcast, but

High school shit. Um but but but but we got back together right before we went to college. Yeah. And and what we would do like that summer before you before we left,'cause we was both on scholarship, she went to Fresno Studio, I went to um same age like I mentioned in this Sacramento State. But what we would do is we would just work out together um to get ready for college and we'd go to the movies. Like that was it. Like we was either we was either on the track working out.

in the white room lifting whites where we was you know, we was uh uh at the at the movies, you know, in Emeryville and Richmond and Auckland. Um and and for us, we got really uh Used to just pushing each other. Yeah. You know, and supporting each other, you know, um, being at each other's meets, her being at my at my football games.

She's incredibly shy, but like I at my at my games, I could hear her voice like, you know, while I was out there trying to trying to catch touchdowns and everything. I try to do the same for her to attract me. Um and and when I got interested in filmmaking, um, you know, she she was just really supportive. You know, like like I was writing screenplays in in Microsoft Word and kind of like venting to her like

Man, if one day I got the software that cost 300 bucks um called Final Draft. And, you know, maybe one day I could get that. You know, in the meantime, I gotta adjust the margins and all of that. Yeah. Um, and then she's, you know, she set over her money, got that from me. Um and it wasn't just like here, baby here goes to the draft. She was like, where's that script at? You know that thing you're working on. Yeah. Um, you know, that athletic mindset. Yeah. Uh so so so how it works is

talk to her about what I'm thinking about working on and she'll I kinda hone my pitch with her. Yeah. Um, she'll be the first person to read, you know, what I what I write, give me feedback. Um so my scripts are always going out really, really hone at the at the early stages of my career in in Um film school. She was with me, you know, all the time. She was down there audit classes with me as she.

work on work on the sets, you know, um, producing and and sometimes operating the camera, you know, um if I had to jump in. Um, you know, so so it was that kinda support and and it just it just kinda stayed that way.

Um, through Fruitville when we shot at home. That was when we first moved in and started living together. Wow. She was on save even though she had a day job, she would just come like get off right, come short. How many days did you shoot Fruitville station in? Um twenty days. Twenty. Yeah.

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What I'm learning or what I feel like I know about you, Ryan, is like you're super collaborative. And uh also you know what you want. Like those two things are so important I think for any real leader especially on set. But I don't think enough people know that a set is like a little town. Like Totally. It's like so many people working. No, totally, totally. And you and your parents were s were school teachers. Yeah. Yeah. So like you you you get it. Yeah. Like like like the um

Like that you know, that blue collar mindset. Um, you know, the communal the communal mindset. The need for communication. I think that's why movies work when they when they work, you know. Um'cause you you're talking about like like mass entertainment. You know what I mean? Like a lot of people go in and go engage with the But that's why you're such a genius is because it's it's

It's hard to make a movie, number one. Just hard to make a movie. Then it's hard to make a good movie. Then it's hard to make a good movie that people enjoy making with you. Right. They walk away and go, that was a good experience. Right. Then it's hard to make a good movie that was enjoyable to make.

Make that people go and see. Yeah. Those things are really hard to make. And you've done it over and over and over again. And you've done it again with sinners. So incredible. Oh, thank you. Like and I picture you going. to your team and being like, I have an idea mm and they were like What was their first instinct was So I went to Zanzi first.

And and it wasn't fully baked and she was like, Man, I ain't ready yet. You know, keep thinking on that. So I so I thought I'd water some more. Yeah. I think I went I think I went to her like three times before she was like, Okay, that makes sense. You know, um And and and it was better for and then they go as a Sarah Hunanya.

Um, who who who, you know, we we're the three founders of Proximity. Um and we got a co-founder in Luvig Jorenson. And this is a it's a music based film, so we brought Ludwig in crazy early. Early. Yeah, exactly. Before that was a script. Um while you know, while it was just our idea. So um uh Were you always thinking about Michael B. Jordan uh

From that uh you were always thinking about using him as the twins. And the twins was always an early like that was why why why twins? It's hard to shoot. I know. Like that's extra work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, for sure. I mean look.

Like it was a hook for me. It was so sticky, right? Like, um, and in this day and age, You need uh I think you need multiple reasons to like lean in. You know, like like when there's so many great things available. Mm-hmm. You know. Like I was in the white room, I'm watching you and I'm watching you and Julie Streifers talk. And it's so entertaining. Like it's a hour it's a hour of like two really entertaining people being intimate and talking.

That's just on my phone for me to click. You know, it's so many ways to spend time. So for me, like I think that I'm a firm believer in like s things having multiple hooks. You know what I'm you know what I mean? And and and and it's a hook for me because um I I I have twins in my family.

But I and I love'em and I I got a lot of homies as twins, but I'm also also have a crippling fear of doppelgangers. Like a strike phobia. You know what I mean? No, I don't. What do you mean? Yeah. Um What are you afraid of? That you're gonna run across your own? Yeah, I've had nightmares like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but also like.

Because I know what you mean because no offense to twins, but twins the idea of twins in general is a little creepy. It's great. It's just creepy enough. Yeah, like like so so I think uh someone who was in the womb with you. Well yeah, that's that's fascinating to me. Like and and we dug deep with with Mike. Like I got two buddies um who are filmmakers, Noah and Logan Miller.

Um, they actually wrote the script G twenty at that um Viola was in when she was the president, like doing action shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but they from Northern California, a little bit farther north than than than where I'm from and and um And and and I actually asked him if they would be open to being consultants on a movie, like to work with me and Mike on developing the characters.

And man, we dug so deep into like the into like the mindset yeah and the dynamics of of of what it's like to have you know um you know essentially a copy of yourself next to you all the time, you know. Um but Michael Michael B. He just like You should just knock knock me back.

By his brilliance and uh um and how you portrayed these characters. Where did you first see Michael? Did you see him before you knew him? Did you see his Did you see did you watch The Wire? I did. So good in that. Yeah. Heartbreaking. Yeah, Wallace. Yeah. Wallace is heartbreaking. I know a lot of kids like that.

you know, friends of mine and and also when I was working with my dad. Mm-hmm. You know, um so yeah, like he it was a brilliant a brilliant portrayal and and um, you know, kudos to to Mike for his performance and and David Simon for for you know, for writing the character. And I should be all for having a show, you know what I mean? And then he was he was great Friday Night Light. Yeah. That's right. And did you um like do you think it's important for directors? A lot of directors have a

An actor that they get to kind of you've had a few, but like an actor that you get to kind of keep working with and working stuff out with. Why is that helpful to work with the same person? More than once. Yeah, I mean I think it's uh it's great, man. Like when I it's funny'cause it actually comes back to football for me.'Cause I play r I play a receiver and I I play with a lot of different quarterbacks, you know, especially in college.

And it was tough'cause I never felt like I found my rhythm with one with one person, you know? Um, and and and that's so important. Like I think uh finding a rhythm is is like a Um, it's like fundamental to to I think to achieving greatness, you know? Yeah. Um, so it's it's phenomenal to have to have um found uh an actor um who's so who's so talented, you know, gifted. um uh uh ambitious, you know, because Mike is constantly trying to push himself and get better at his craft.

He's professional. Um but he's also like a good person. You know, like like he's like y when you doing a movie with him, if he's number one on your car, she you know that you're gonna have a safe set for people. Yeah. You know, um you gonna be able to do

great work without making people's lives miserable. He's gonna treat people with kindness. Um, he got nothing to prove. So he he learns the PA's name, he learns the camera operator's name. Yeah. The same way he'll know the producers names, you know. Right, right. Um in in in that That is something that I think permeates the set like at a at a foundational level. I've been very blessed in that.

Well, but one could argue too that you you you um that's also what you transmit, give off. That's your station. Like your channel is attuned to that so people take their cue from you. Try to. You know? But it's great to have Mike. There to amplify it. Yeah. You know, because that's who he is. You know? And he's ridiculously talented. Like it's he's and he was doing work that required a lot of focus. You know, like he was.

He was still generous to people. Yeah. You know, even though he'll come to sell on a day where he's gotta be, you know, two different people. You know. Was it fun to call him up and be like,

You're gonna be a vampire? What was crazy Because I would be psyched if someone's cra uh hey, uh we might have to make the car at some point. Man, we might have to figure that out. But but but for for me, um w what what it what it was was uh how it ended up working.

I was trying to get the screenplay together because Mike's busy, you know? Um and and and I didn't wanna I didn't want to say, hey, I got a thing. Yeah. And then have him waiting for, you know, for for a script. I didn't need him blowing my phone up. Like I wear it shit. Um, but what ended up happening was he called me and pitched me something while I was working on this for him.

Um and then and I was like at first I was like Mike I can't you know I I can't work on that right now and he got upset like hey man what's Hey what's going on man? Like I wan you know I wanna I wanna get this going. Yep like it's something you're not telling me. So I'm like look I'm working on a thing. Oh it's interesting and you're like I have a C I'm bringing this to you. This is what it is. And I remember how he how he reacted because he just got quiet for it for for a long time.

And I was like, I was like, oh shit, did I lose him? You know, and he's like, uh, he's like, man, you know what? That sounds pretty interesting, man. He was like, Okay, okay, w when when you wanna do it and and And so uh I got the script done and got it to him and then he was and then he was in. I mean, I I v there's a lot I I'm not a big uh horror I I I get kinda scared at movies and um I'm not really a big horror fan. Yeah. But what's so cool about vampires is vampires are sexy.

Exactly. Zombies are not. Zombies not sexy. No. Vampires are sexy. There's it's true. The and and the your film has a Like, there's so much going on. It centers is so amazing. And original IP and like beautifully written and beautifully acted and shot and incredible cast. The chemistry between the characters in your film is so real. And the way in which you basically

create uh in the midst of horror, like like love and romance and sex. It's just like you do a lot of things in this movie really, really well. And I would just like to say the most Of the many things in the film that I loved. Can I just get you? Small for a second to talk about the scene, the dancing scene in the film. Um uh Autumn, your incredible DP first.

female D P to shoot in this IMAX format, Arcapah? Uhum Autumn Arcapa, yeah. And and autumn uh but but how did you guys approach the scene? There's that beautiful scene where Everyone's dancing and kind of enjoying themselves before the horror starts and their ancestors kind of jo they join them. How did that scene look on the page? Yeah, I could tell you, um, i i'cause cause I I I'd outlined the script before

getting into final draft and writing it. Yeah. And I I didn't have I didn't have that that um um surreal like element to it. It was it was just gonna be that that that, you know, preacher boy sings and people like it, you know. That's what it said in the script? No, no, no, no, no. That's what it said in the outline. Okay, the outline. In the outline. When I got to it in the script, like I f I got I felt

Strange because I had fallen in love with all these all these characters. I didn't want them to die. You know what I mean? Like that was I realized in this movie they gotta like. Right. You know what I'm saying? Um and uh I felt I felt bad and I was and and I and I realized that this scene was the midpoint and

It dawned on me that like though these these people, uh, the real people, not in my script, but the real people that they they that they based on. Um, these these Black folks in nineteen thirties. who were like of age to be in this juke joint. Um, you know, they they were they were living in uh in in in Clarksdale during Jim Carr. They all were they all were sharecroppers.

Um,'cause it was there was nothing else that the society allowed them to be. Their grandparents were enslaved. Um, their their children and their children's children would still be sharecroppers. Um, but somehow they they um invented you know, probably the most impactful American contribution, the global popular culture. And they invented it just because they wanted to feel alive for a few hours.

you know, Friday and Saturday night. You know, um and and and and and they had no I don't think they had any idea that the music that they listened to would change the world. You know, like like um so so I so I thought I thought about that. I said, man, I'm about to I'm about to like kill him and

My vampires? You know, like I gotta have something else in the movie that that that that is like some type of some type of victory moment, you know? Um and that was where that was where the idea the idea of um um of of depicting just how How powerful and transcendent Sammy's voice um um is if it could call a vampire, you know, uh maybe it could call the these people's ancestors and and descendants too. So so that was so so I wrote the script.

I wrote it all in in italics. I clicked the italics on it and I and I kept it all in one chunk. Wow. You know, um uh like like almost like a stream of consciousness. And left it like that in the script for when for when you know, for when my my partners read it and everybody read it to know to to to really, you know, um, you know, read that read that differently, you know. Yeah. Well it's so powerful and and

Thank you for putting that putting that giving that context to it because that's what it felt like. It felt like you were you were loving those characters in real time. That's what it felt like. It felt like a loving gesture in real I and and we we felt that when we saw it was so, so beautiful. And so beautifully shot. Just the way

Camera moves. I mean it was everybody working like in concert with each other. Um we we we brought in uh Akamon Jones, who's our who's a choreographer, works a lot with Usher Raymond. Um choreographed like pitch perfect and he did all the Panther films. I actually met him through Chatwick Boseman. No Russian Peace.

And and and uh, you know, every department was in on that. Like from from Hannah Beakler to um our visual effects supervisors, Michael Rowley and James Alexander, um all them they're all archapar, cinematographer, obviously. We had a Brilliant Steady Cam. Yeah, the Steady Cam work was incredible. It's a kid named Rennie, um, Haitian American kid, ex-football player. Um Yeah, you used to be strong, strong dude, man, and and sharp. You know, um, and everybody had to

You know, everybody had to work together. The actors, the incredible dancers. Um, you know, Ruth Carter with our costumes. And it was, it was like that was the most team effort uh of everything that we that we did. That that that scene as well as It's is uh I used to call like the twin counterpart, which is the the step dancing scene that happens, yeah that happens a little bit later in the film. Yeah. It's so beautiful. And I I d I I wanna say you you you

Talk about your work on Black Panther and Chadwick, you gave a beautiful speech recently, um, at the Hollywood Walk of Fame about Chadwick, which is beautiful. And I don't think people Ask you enough or I don't hear enough. Like what did you guys laugh about when you would work together on Black Panther? You and Chad. What did you what when when you think about I mean have you seen have you seen Chad on SNL?

Oh yeah. He's hilarious. He is hilarious. He can do anything. Yeah. No, but he but his his natural his natural way of being, I I think Would he tea did would he does he like to tease? All the time. That's the Yeah, no, no, no. He he was

No, he but he would do it in accent, which is what was which was what was crazy about him on set. Yeah, he was very disciplined. So he so he's he's constantly in accent. Yeah. And just and just being and just being like like, you know, he'll be ridiculous, like in between takes. Yeah. And in between you know, like like um

Like I'm trying to I'm trying to think of like Like do you guys did you guys goof around when you're I mean it's I you're working hard. No, I was I was ridiculously stressed out. Yeah. You know, like like like like unbelievably stressed out. I bet. And um and and And we know we know now what our child was dealing with. You know. Um, but he was he was incredible, man, and like and like deeply

Deeply funny. You know, deeply funny, man. Like he would he would he would tease with with uh with Lupita and Denai, um, you know, uh constantly, constantly cracking jokes, man. Like like in in um, you know, we would laugh. We will laugh most about the costumes. You know, like like just just how how'cause uh y yeah. And I bet it must be fun to like introduce a new costume. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, man. Like like like um

Uh yeah, but but I like we w like the like some of the props too, man. Like we would joke we would joke and say that he was we was gonna give him like it was a walking scene. And we we would joke and say we was gonna give him the um like the the the the giraffe tail so that he can like that he can like swipe like swipe flies away while he was walking with while he was walking with little pizza.

And he wa he wa he was he was a martial artist. So he took that he took the he took the uh the dri the the little thing was Yeah,'cause I mean he had like the ability to like clown. He was so talented. So talented. Yeah he was gifted, man. Yeah. Like like um But but how to you know, just how to great sense of humor. I feel like comedy sometimes is where we stay connected sometimes with the people that have passed. Like

la like thinking about the times we laughed with them. One hundred percent. And they I feel sometimes like they make us laugh. Yeah. We we see something that makes us laugh that makes us think of us laughing with them. I don't know. I just think that like it's fun sometimes to think about those times. Oh, for sure, man. Like, um i in in I think uh for for me

When I when I look when I look back on my re my relationship with him, man, it it it it it taught me it taught me so much. But the biggest thing is like to not take things for granted. You know, like even even even all of this, I mean like like um the success of the film, um, being invited to podcasts with you, uh uh um doing um um awards press with my cast. Yeah. Like d b bef before losing him.

you know, I would be um not present in those in those moments. You know, like I would be overwhelmed or or be considering it to be work or or uh dealing with like imposter syndrome or what have you. Um but but sh but since

since losing him because he would be the one to to like snap me out of that. You know? Like when I would be stressed on on Panther, I'll say, man, I gotta hurry up and do this or I'm I'm gonna get fired. You know, and he would say, hey man, stop saying that. He actually pulled me to the side.

It was like, yo, stop saying that, man. You know? And I'm like, no, I truly believe that. He was like, Yo, I'm not gonna let anything happen to you. He told me I'm not letting nobody fire you, bro. Like me. Like so so please stop. You know, please stop saying that. Relax, man, and you know, do your work, enjoy it, you know. Um and and that that very act of being present he was so he was so

good at that. So I think about that all the time. Yeah. Like like even walking in here with you, I'm like, man, I'm really I'm really here. Like I seen this set on the podcast and I'm here talking, I seen you perform and and watch all your movies and your shows and it's like it's like damn, like I'm I'm I'm being invited to come sit in this in this same in this same spot as being just being present.

That lesson is like I feel like the lesson we just have to keep remembering and being reminded of over and over again. Like be where you are. Yes. Be where where your feet are, be where you are. It's hard. It's not easy, but You're right. It's a gift every time you're reminded of it. So are you getting to enjoy the fact that you have a gigantic successful movie that's Legs are b being rewarded and will be awarded and you're with these

people that you've worked with now for really long. It's awesome. Yeah, I have a time in my life. And so we do this thing on the show where we talk to people who know our guests. We kinda talk well behind their back before we get before we talk to them. And we talk to Ludwig today.

Okay. Oh man, that's crazy. Okay. And first of all, so Swedish. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. My brother lives in Sweden, so I tried to talk a little Swedish to him. How'd I go? It didn't go well. He talked back to you in English. No, he talked back to me in Swedish and I panicked. Like I totally panicked. Well you got through the first thing. Usually when I try to speak another language of people who native speakers, I just

talk back to me in English and be like, I'll stop it. Oh, I know that's there's nothing sadder than when they than when they talk back to you in English and they're like Yeah. So you got Swedish back. So I did get thank you. You're right. Maybe I should look at it as a win. So I got Swedish back. Exactly. You definitely He was humoring me. Um and he's so oh my I mean, what a incredible talent. And the music

it it it's so interesting to me that you brought him in so early because you can tell that I mean this is a movie about the power of music too. And, you know, you have buddy guy be like i the embodiment of kind of like the before and now. You know, it's just like a living person. Totally. And in in many ways Almost feels like a vampire. Yeah. He still here and ha was there then. It's so cool. But it wasn't that long ago. Yeah. It's like kind of like what the with the what the movie is.

Yeah. Right. And right. And a very good reminder. into the two thousands. Right. Which would've put the fashion But w like it is today. So it'll probably confuse Oh right, yeah, because you right, you need a little bit confused audience. Yeah. Well that's really interesting. And you and and Ludwig, you know, he he's talked about where how how amazing it is to work with you, how collaborative it is to work with you. He also said like

you know, there were a bunch of different versions versions of sinners that before the final version and working on that together and figuring out what that was. And um and how his dad and your fam like the blues be were bringing. It did. How did it bring it t bring you guys together? Well, um yeah, like so so the the history of the how how the blues kinda um became this this instrument of like global cultural change was was um really interesting.

Um the Delta Blues When the record industry came, they made those records race records. And this was a time where where where um you know the country was segregated and and and the record industry was was was a was a product of that. So they would they would kinda put race records over here, anything made by a black person. The same record might r you know made by a right p made wh by a white person. I call that maybe rock and roll or bluegrass or country. And um and and black musicians when

the record industry was burgeon, they couldn't tour. You know? Um, but but uh their records with with would would travel, you know, um overseas And a lot of, you know, Uh bands in Europe kind of fell in love with the music. Um, like maybe more most famously the Rolling Stones fans, or the Beatles. Um and and and and then those those guys would come to the to the States and seek out these musicians and and then take them on their European tours. Right. You know, as as opening as opening acts.

Um in in Sweden, Ludwig's father uh saw, I believe, John Lee Hooker um and Albert King. Yeah, yeah, and and and and was so was so inspired by seeing him that he decided that he wanted to become a Bulls guitarist. And became one, you know. Um, and and when he had his when he had his his his his first son, who who was Ludwig.

you know, he introduced him to to guitar lessons, you know. Um and and and his dad made money as a guitar teacher. Wow. And and and what's crazy is Louvi You know, how he tells me he was it was something that he wa he liked spending time with his dad, but he wasn't necessarily crazy about about the music that his dad was listening to. until he heard Metallica, you know. And then and then and then boom, he fell in love with it and and you know became a became a uh uh you know a a a a guitarist

how to jazz quartel all kind of different stuff going with the went to music school and eventually came to came to to the States to learn how to become a film composer and that's how we met. We met in school. Yeah. You know, in two thousand eight. Yeah, you met at a party. We did. Yeah, yeah. I mean if you wanna call it that. Yeah, yeah, it w it was it was pretty it was pretty uh it was pretty dead. Yeah, it was a bunch of it was a bunch of Nyards sitting around.

And we was two of them, you know what I mean? Yeah, his question to you is is like a perfect musician guitarist question, which his question that he wanted me to ask you was how is your guitar playing going? Oh my god. He wants to know how it's going. Oh may okay, so maybe maybe there's one thing you're not great at. It's a it's a lot of things I'm great at. You should bring Zinzi in here and she'll tell you she'll tell you all of them. But uh no, no, I I'm I'm terrible.

Yeah, like it's not going well. Yeah, it's not going well. Good. It makes the rest of us feel a little better that you're also not in like yeah, excellent at guitar, blues guitar yet. Yeah, but you're learning, you're trying to be better at typing. Yeah. Yeah. But but but um the guitar is still there.

You know, my kids play it now, you know. Um but uh I gotta get back on my I gotta get back on my lessons. Yeah, he wanted and he he wanted to check in. Okay, we'll let him out. Um Well let well I just wanna say you know, b before we before we wrap is that the effect that Black Panther had on um

You know, I I I went to the movies to see that with my sons, my teen sons. And to see something together, a shared experience like that together, and to kind of walk out, to your point, out into the world after feeling completely changed. Like the s the color of the sky is different and the way we're talking to each other is different and the things we've heard is different. Like the way in which their lives were truly changed by that film.

is so special to me. I really I thank you for it. Because it's not always easy to find that, especially like a mom and her boys and teen boys and like to find something that you can share in together and love equally. It's such an incredible piece of art. Um, they would want me to ask you, If you're making another one.

Yes. Okay. That's all that's all I want to know. Okay. They want me to know. Like my my mom my mom was my was my movie buddy, you know. Yeah. Um and she still is. Mm. Uh, you know, um so so so yeah, like I got that that hearing that story. I can't tell you how many times I've been in the car with my mom going to go see a movie she was excited about. Um she would go when I was too young to go to see movies, she would come back from dates with my dad and she would if the movie was good. You know.

She was she would she would s stand there in the living room and act out the movie for me. Like walk walk me through everything that happened. That's so cool. My fondest memory was her doing that with the fugitive. You know what I mean? And she's like, yeah, and then Air Support jumps down the waterfall. And then Tom Lee Jones says, I don't care. And then like, you know, that was that was my mom. So like like hearing that you watched it with your boys, y'all had a y'all had a nice time.

That I that means everything to me. Thank you. It meant a lot to me too. I really appreciate it. And I the the the last question I want to ask you is um Your relationship to comedy. You have you you you I think in all the stuff that you do, you you have fun you like have fun with the the ways in again, which you're ca you don't

put boundaries on how your characters are gonna react to things. Sometimes they're like light and comedic. You have a l you wanna have fun in the stuff that you make and you want people to have fun when they go and see your films. Um what what are your what were some influential comedic films for you growing up and what are what's making you laugh now? How do you laugh? Man, I I it's so funny. Um a lot of it for me these days

Um, it's coming like it's coming from the internet. Yeah. Like like like like b like big time, man. Like um, but coming up. You know, my like one of my favorite movies is Coming to America. Oh my god. Incredible movie. Like that's that's that's my you know, that's my Incredible. That's got my that's got my heart um to this day. Um and I I love I love like I love Friday. Yeah. You know? Like like um that's a big one. Yeah. Um I love I love like McKay's McKay's work.

One of my favorite movies is The Other Guys. Oh yeah. I think that gets slept on. I totally agree. That's my favorite movie of his. You know, you make some some great some great ones. Um that is a stupid fun movie. No. I can't like it's like it's some it's so much it's like it's so much yeah, it's so much in that movie that's That's so deeply hilarious.

Like obviously SNL, you know. Do you watch SNL? Yeah, big time. You do? Yeah. I got homies that's been on there and just you know, like like I love what Mike did on there. You know. I mean, let's watch that. Wait, tell me again explain again the State Farm bit. So so so so Mike is uh you mean Yeah, well you said it's a little bit more. So so so so Mike so Mike is Jake from State Farm.

And um and and and it gets it g it just goes dark. Like like from like from there, it become it becomes like a like a like a like a like a David Lynch movie. But um Oh yeah, Jake from J Pop, okay. He he just totally replaces he totally replaces his he becomes his man's worst nightmare. Like he he replaces him. I can see how why you would like this. He's teaching his kid how to play. He's got his hand on the small of his wife's back. Yeah. Oh, he just gave him a look.

Okay, so you're you do you watch you watch sketch to get I do. Okay. Yeah yeah yeah I do. I love it. I love it. That's why I'm so excited to to be here. I mean obviously. I mean that in that enjoy from from Pixar, you know what I'm saying? But but all the all of the all of the all of the comedy stuff, man. I'm like I'm like I think it's like the highest level of of of what we do. So like

You know, any of y'all that can that can that can kill it on multiple levels and multiple ways, you know what I mean? Live scripted or improv is like, you know. But I you would know that from my work. But yeah, um I feel it. I feel it. I'm definitely in there. Yeah, I get it. And I it's it's I I'm I know you're

Like beyond busy. It means a lot that you came. Thank you so much for coming. It was such a such a such a pleasure. And um thank you to every your incredible team of people too who made it happen. So thanks, Ryan. It means a lot. Thanks so much for coming.

Thank you so much, Ryan. That was awesome. And uh I learned so much about you and and about films and your love of them. So thanks for for joining me today. And um for this polar plunge, as we finish, um, you know, I asked Ryan what kind of posters were hanging on his wall, and I thought it was only fair to share what was hanging on my wall when I was growing up. So you should know that I had a poster of the band Whitesnake.

Okay, that's number one. Um number two, I think I must have had like a a movie poster. It was probably you know, something like Lily Tomlin and Bet Midler and like Big Business or something like that. I don't remember. I probably had an eighties motivational poster like a cat hanging on a branch. Saying hang in there. When I was really young, I I used to uh look at a magazine called Teen Beat and I would rip out posters of Sean Cassidy.

Um and put'em on my wall and put um lip balm on my lips and then kiss the picture. So, um, I don't know, just felt like you guys needed to know that. Okay, Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for listening. Bye. Ha ha ha. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman, and

Amy Polar. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paperkite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullen, and Alea Zeneris. For Paperkite, production by Sam Joel Lovell and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy.