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Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We have Lena Dunham with us today. Lena, actress, writer, producer, creator of girls. Best selling author of her memoir, Fame Sick. We are gonna get into it with Lena. We are gonna talk about um Nora Efron. We're gonna talk about the productivity myth and how we're all suffering because of it. We're gonna talk about whether or not one should go on great British bake-off. Is it actually worth it?
We are gonna get into so much good stuff today. We had a great conversation and we always like to talk to somebody who knows our guest, who has a question for our guest and wants to speak well behind their back. And we spoke to Natalie Portman. Classy actress. Natalie, you know her from The Black Swan, from rapping on SNL, from a little indie called Star Wars.
And she and Lena are working on a rom com together. So uh let's get Natalie on the horn. I believe um we're talking to her from outside of the country. So bonjour or bonsoir, Natalie. This episode is presented by Hilton. Guys, you know what vacation perfectionism is? It's the pressure to get your family's summer vacation booked and make it perfect and memorable. Stressful, right? Don't worry, because the team at Hilton takes care of what matters.
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Thank you. You too. I mean, well you're kind of you've been you've been doing it for for a while, right? Well, I have I have, you know, visually like no option with my hair. My hair is kind of my hair just cuts itself. Okay, so um First of all, congratulations on all the things that are happening for you, including this new film that you're in. Thank you. Mm-hmm. With Mark Ruffalo. And my wife Rashida Jones and many others. She's my wife too, so I'm glad we share that.
I'd like to I'd like to talk about that because we can't share her. She's a pulley good mess. That's okay. Well, I'd like to get her on the horn and make her pick. Ha ha ha. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. That would actually probably be her nightmare if we called her sheeta right now. We're like, me or Natalie. Exactly. She'll be like Ezra. Yeah. I do want to talk about your film and working with Lena. But but by the way, have you been listening to the um Lonely Island Seth Myers podcast?
At all? Oh but I've heard amazing things about it. Highly recommend. And their episode about your rap. It's so it's so good and it's so funny. And it's like very in-depth about how it all came together. They're the best. And that was So fast. That was and it just it's such a time capsule too, because it's just a like a time in the two thousands. So That's its own thing. It's so wild. You've got short hair. It's so exciting. Yeah, post head shaving.
Whoa, that was a grow in. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Man, you know, you're not really an actress unless you have one. Head shaving. Uh Like you've gotta shave your head once. Have you ever shaved your hand? No. I I would I have a kind of a small head, so I would be That's surprising. I wouldn't guess that. Oh really? Really? Thank you so much. Ha ha ha. Does my head look larger? Peace. Normal size. Yeah.
You know well, you know the whole theory that like the bigger the head the more successful you are? Do you know this theory? Really? No, I don't. Um, when at SNL, I'm sure this happened to you too when you were there, like they'll measure your head, you know, for prosthetics and stuff like that. And so you get a sense of who has really big heads and supposedly historic The bigger the head, the bigger the paycheck. No way. That's really funny.
Now that I've brought this up, you're gonna start to notice. You're gonna start to notice like, wow, he has a huge head. Like he's that's why he's running a country or whatever. You're gonna notice it. So, bye. I mean, I feel like you're pretty successful. Amy. Thank you so much. Maybe I maybe I'm a small headed success. May yeah, maybe you're an outlier. But I do. You wear um I wear a young boy's hat. I can wear a young man's hat. That's very lucky. W I'm interviewing Lena today. Yeah.
Yes. And you know, I'm kind of getting her after a lot of interviews. Like she's been kind of on on tour online all like really out there. And um I've known her for a long time and I'm excited to talk about the different ways that I've known her, but I've never known her as a director. I've never worked with her in that way. And I'm curious. what kind of director she is and what it was like to work with her in that way.
Um, she's the best director I've one of one of the best, if not the best, I've worked with. Yeah. so on point. Like the notes she gives are so like astute and specific. And like she pays attention to everything and she doesn't Also like hesitate to give compliments too about very specific things along with like maybe try this different.
And she's extremely nurturing and generous and kind to everyone on set at all times. Like I would go home every day being like, how does she have the energy? Because the amount of like generosity and kindness and thoughtfulness she puts out all day. To everyone? Is like pretty miraculous. So the very like the environment on set is incredible because everyone's just so happy.
Not a surprise to hear that and so nice to hear that. And that's a really interesting specific that you said, which is that she will Compliment. something you've done. Like that isn't always the case. Like it's nice when people notice something that you try and say, I noticed it. Exactly. And and it's specific because a lot of people will be like, oh, good job. Or like that was a really nice take or something. But she'd be like, I like how you like accented the, you know, word in that.
that was really funny in that line, you know, very a very specific thing that she notices, or like that face you made in response to Rashida or whatever, like that was great or It's it's not just a general like you can tell she's really just watching so carefully and sharply. And her ideas are so good. And she comes up with like brilliant new lines all the time, you know, the way only great comedy minds like yourself can do.
Okay, so do you have a question for our guest today, Lena, that you think might be a good one to ask or? My question for her is. what well I had one kind of one that I personally want to know, which is what is the best kind of pig? Okay. So you're thinking about getting a pig? Actually can't and where I Live, right. But I dream about it in the future one day. And she has a lot of knowledge about this. Um, so and I like to hear her talk about pigs.
That is a great question because I do enjoy pigs. They are really cute. Yeah, so Lena, what is the best? And I say get the pig. You know what I mean? Even if you're not allowed to have it. So the problem is is that where I rent there's wild boars. Oh yeah. Apparently. Boars mate with pigs. Oh no. Very dangerous. Hi, Brent. And so it's illegal in that area. Okay. Because there's some Did not expect that. Vicious vicious hybrid baby pig.
And I don't want to be responsi I think I'll get kicked out of France. So okay, very smart. That is that is actually that's very responsible parenting. That's responsible pig parenting. And uh the I have a thousand questions about the wild boars. I mean it's the main topic of conference. We're seeing. Yeah. You ne you never hear about like really nice boars. Well I think like domesticated boars are pigs. Right. I'm not ready to say that. I don't know. We should ask Lena. They would know that.
The boar the big boar is gonna come for us. I'm not ready for it. Ha ha ha. Okay, I'm gonna ask you the difference between boars and pigs. Um Natalie, thank you so much for doing this. Means a lot. And before we go, would you just mind saying in French to me? Um have a wonderful day, Amy. Um and your head may be small, but your But you're not going to be able to do that. But your heart is large. Ta tête est petite. Uh France is gonna murder me. For that. They're gonna send the boards.
They're gonna send the book. You're gonna hear a ding dong right now. There's gonna be four French boars. Um language bores. No, thank you for doing that. It sounds beautiful. Anything you say sounds beautiful. And especially in French. Thank you, Natalie. Thanks. It's really nice to see you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, you too. Okay, you too, honey. Bye. Enjoy Lena. Give her a kiss.
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Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. Thank you, Lena. Thank you for being here. It's really good to see you. It's really good. It's been a long time. I know I've missed I know and congrats, you just celebrated your fortieth birthday.
Had my fortieth birthday. the turn the corner. I've been trying to gather wisdom from the women that I know who have been 40 and seem to have liked it. I think it kind of rules. Yeah. I like it. I like getting older much more than being young. You don't know anything better than different than being young when you're young. So you don't realise but there's like a
Some kind of pressure that's dissipating. Yeah. And some kind of attention that is no that you no longer either feel you are supposed to be seeking or are getting. And it's a huge relief. I said like sometimes it's like you're gay. I'm in the good way gaining a cloak of invisibility. Yeah. And also
I was so f even though people seem to think of me as someone who's really like marching to the beat of my own drum or whatever, I was so dominated by shoulds and musts and ought-tos. And now I feel really okay going. That's not really my thing. That's not for me. So glad if it's for you, not for me. I mean, even just realizing, like, I don't really like to go to parties. Yeah. I don't like to go to parties.
Not even that I don't want to be asleep early. I just wanna be in bed early to stay up late doing what I want to do in bed. I wanna talk to you about your sleep. Okay. Okay. I have some thoughts. I would love to get them. Uh'cause we talk w we we we you talk a lot about it in the book and I can't wait to talk about it. But When you don't like going to a party, what would be your ideal uh gathering? What would be my good hang? Yeah. Thank you.
I like to hang out on the couch or on bed with a fr one friend, two friends. One or two. Maybe we order some food, we hang out with some animals, we gab, then they leave early enough that you have time to maybe like potter around, move one pile of things from one corner of the room to another. Yes. Then read a book and maybe like watch a little bit of a murder documentary and then falter. And text them and be like, That was fun. Yes and be like, I love being your friend.
We're still together but you're very happy that you're like both on your mats. Yes. Totally. That's exactly what I like. Or I like like when I'm hang out with my nuclear family and I like when we all four of us read on different tufted surfaces near each other. And then everyone sort of like puts themselves to bed. We parallel play and then everyone puts themselves to bed.
I mean, I bet you get this a lot and you talk about it a little bit in your book. Like you present as such an extrovert, right? And I relate, I present very extroverted too. But I from what you've written about that you are secretly quite introverted. Yes. And it's kind of hard to you're in an extrovert. Yeah. And you like to talk and you like to have other people talk, you wanna draw that out of other people too. I loved I like to talk and I like to listen.
You l you you love to have a conversation. I know that about you. And that is expensive. Yes. But it takes a very long time to realize that, especially if you're good at it. Interesting. That's very beautifully put. But and I've always found you to be exceedingly wise. Even I have always found you to be, despite your um adorable little blonde bop, you are a wise. Thank you. You are a very wise lady. It's a Bob Summer.
After a party, I mean, I have to stare at the wall and dissociate for eighteen hours minimum. Mm. It actually made leads me into my first question to you, which is you've been on a press tour, you've been you've been talking nonstop with many people. Uh Which is a very personal thing. Yeah. So now that you've done a bunch of these, what have you learned about what how you like to talk about it? How can like Um I
You've done this before. I I was like, it's a strange thing to write a book about what it cost you. to go on press tours and talk and talk about yourself and then go on a press tour and talk about it. Yeah. Like maybe the most truthful thing would have been to like just, you know, drop it like a surprise album and then go, I'll be in my bedroom for six months. You guys figure it out.
But at the same time, I really love this is gonna sound I really love books and um but I really love books and I really love I feel really lucky that I got to write it and really like and then there's and there's issues in it like, you know, the trying to talk about what it how we kind of um perceive and consume female celebrity, how chronic illness, mental health stuff that's like feels like
Things that I am excited to get to talk about in the right way. Yeah. But I had to really remind myself before going out. I when I was
really tap dancing as hard as I could in my twenties. I went into every interview basically the way that I would have gone into like every play date when I was in second grade, which was I hope you want to be my friend and I hope you want to invite me back. My mom always called it she always still does she'll be like 50% rule because she always says that I could give 50% less energy in situations and everything would be fine.
Because I have tried to give twenty five percent. I mean, I really do feel like you're you're speaking of something really true, not just women obviously, but a lot of women over deliver. They overdeliver in every way and and then they're exhausted. And they match bitter and bitter. And well of course I resent I resent the things I do to myself. It's gonna sound like a detour, but it's not which is that I have pet pigs and We're gonna talk about
Oh, where as to quote Lisa Ren Rina's memoir title, You better uh You better believe I'm gonna talk about it or whatever. It's called something you know I'm gonna talk about. it and to quote Wanda Sykes' book, Yeah, I said it.
But there is a thing when you're train when I got a pig, I realized okay, this is not like a dog, this is not like a cat. I need to get some I need to get a specialist in here to teach me how to do this. And there's a woman named Susan Madgitson who is the preeminent Pick, trainer, and rescue artist of our time. Excellent. And Susan T has a Zoom that she does every Monday night called For Pig's Sake where all pig owners can get on and ask for questions.
Susan and at her farm, Ross Mill Farms, where she takes in all the pigs that people adopted because they thought they were so cute and little and then they are two hundred pounds of attitude. Yes. Of pure attitude. But one of the things that happens to house pigs is that they d develop something called spoiled SPS, spoiled pig syndrome.
It is an it is a well-known condition wherein a pig starts to if you ask your pig, say if say you give your pig treats, but you don't ever ask them to do a trick for those treats, right? Suddenly you ask them to do anything, they're like, No, that's not the deal that we were in. And then they start to become aggressive, they start to destroy things, they get an attitude.
Because they've got spoiled pig syndrome. And I told my brother about it. And he was like, You mean like what you've done to everybody that you've ever dated? Like you have the worst. Yes. Where's the trick? Babe? Where's the trick babe? There is no trick. And he said also It's the thing about spoiled pig syndrome is at the end of the day you have a spoiled pig and it's nobody's fault but your own. Ugh. That's the worst. I know.
Is it always comes back to I mean that I would say that is the one thing about being over 40 is there's just less and less ability. to kind of put the blame externally. Like you're like, oh no, I know better. Thank God I know better. But fuck, now I know better. Okay. It took you eight years to write this book. How did you know when it was done? Really good question. A really good question. There was so my editor Andy Ward is one of my most favorite people. Andy Ward.
For Andy Ward and and he's just a good, he's a good man. He's I don't try to go around using the term girl dad a lot. I don't love it, but. But he is uh he is a girl dad. He's a girl dad to us all, and he's a writer dad, and he's just the greatest. And he what I love is that a lot of People in this economy would just go, okay, there seems to be like enough gossip that maybe People magazine would be enough book quotes that we You can get that out there.
Yeah, we can get that out there. Okay, it's ready. And he really cares and he really pushed me to you know, I started the book when I was Three months out of rehab and I just thought like I'll jot off some of these experiences and then they will have left my body and I'll never have to think about it again. Yeah. And it ended up sort of the thing you said about having to look at yourself, I was like, this isn't gonna be yeah, something that is worth the paper that it's printed on if I don't
If I have to tell the story and I also have to try to understand how I got there. And it turns out that takes time. And you know, you've talked about there's there's so many things in the book there's about there's about there's relationship breakups, there's Tons of stuff about figuring out, um, like you spoke, of like how to participate in the system and how the system works for you and against you. And there is a lot of stuff about personal stuff about people that you work with.
But I'm I'm also interested in a couple of things, but but I'm also interested in the way you you speak about like looking for wisdom a little bit, especially in women that were a little older. I was really I wan I could have read a million pages about you and Nora, Ephron. And I we talk about her on this podcast a lot. I never had the pleasure to meet her, but you took a little bit of a little bit of a little
Thank you for saying that. I would have loved to have met her. And I guess it's not really a deep question, but it kind of feels like it is like she gave you. Decorating tips. She did. But it that feels very just like very maternal. One of the ways that she showed care was she had this like incredible mental rollock of
Here's where you get your bagels and here's where you blow your hair out. And here's who should paint your walls. But the guy who paints your walls is different than the guy who paints your floors. Like giving you all the tools to live well. She said to me, You cannot.
shoot a movie without this very specific Patagonia lightweight. She was like, and don't get the medium weight, get the lightweight zip puffer cardigan. You know, these things are she's just like, I have f I've been here for a while and I've figured out She's curated her life. It was exactly that. And she
And I felt like I how lucky am I to be the person that she has chosen to give this all of this incredible wisdom and information to. And when she died, I mean there are hundreds of us. Somehow she found the time. To do this, she would just see someone and think I don't know if she thought, you know, they amuse me enough that I can stand to have them around, or if she just thought they seemed like they need it, but she showed up.
For other women, younger women, in this way that was so mind-blowing. And I think part of why she did it was because it it also made her feel good. Well, now that you're like now millennials are getting older and welcome to the club millennials. I'm here to say it's not so bad. But now millennials are turning 40, like and they're like you're becoming men m a mentor. You you have mentees, I'm sure. And I love what you said in your book about how you really try
To not give that much advice where you just try to say, like, I'm here and I'm available. Yeah. Figuring out how to be a good mentor is really interesting. So I'm
Curious your thoughts,'cause I feel like sometimes I never wanna get caught in the trap of thinking that I know better than they do. Like if I see somebody doing something where I think that's gonna really hurt you and and and damage you, if I'm like have the opportunity to sort of put my arm out like a seatbelt, but at the same time, I don't think I could hear it when I was that age. Like to use a great metaphor, not my pig, not my farm.
Like you can't save anybody from themselves. I mean, you know, this is some cod cody stuff we're talking about. Like I know. When you see somebody, it's like, what are you gonna be like, don't do it? Like what are you gonna say, don't do that job, don't take Don't date that guy. Like we all have to make these mistakes and nobody listens when you do any
If someone has a question and I can answer it, I am delighted. And I'm also always saying, and then you do exactly whatever you want, and I will be here cheering you on. Speaking of that, the way you talk about The productivity myth in your book? It really spoke to me as a gen Xer. So my gen grew up with like working girl and you wear your sneakers in the subway and like hustle like
You know, and Madonna's documentary was like, I'm gonna play through the pain and Lady Gaga's documentary was like, I'm I have fibromyalgia and I'm really suffering. I'm totally different. And both w showed this like version of like how to get through what you're getting through.
But we got sold this idea that if you're not producing, you're not worthwhile, and I know you struggled with that too. What can you say about that or what have you learned about that through the writing of this book or just through like living life? Well, when I saw Five Foot Two, the Gaga documentary, that was one of the most emotional I remember I just kept rewinding because I'd never seen these things on camera before. And I always thought that if people found out
what was going on with me physically behind the scenes. So they'd be like, well, this one's defective. We want a new one. I mean Yeah. And Hollywood has not done anything to make us think that isn't That's right. The approach. I mean, we maybe can can speak about things a little bit more maybe a producer would not feel comfortable saying out loud that one's defective, we want a new one. But the But the behavior remains the same. And so there was a lot of time of reminding myself that.
all of these people's ideas of what a valuable life is, of what v what of the right way to spend your time, of how to prioritize your health versus the work, your health versus Press junket. Yeah. didn't have to be mine. I remember once before a job, them going, So how do you how long before you get sick do you usually know that it's gonna happen? And I was like Never even explained.
occurred to me that that I was like somet I don't know, like when it starts, I don't I don't know what to say. There was this idea that you could almost like schedule your body's Well, I it's funny you say that because my brain, like what this book did is it like which I think good writing does, is it makes you think about
Wait, how am I thinking about the world? And to your point, now what I'm realizing is that what I wanna do to extend the conversation is be like ask people how did they do their system. How do they work it? So that conversation you have pr with producers is really helpful. I used to spend a lot of time thinking I was the only thing I mean it said.
you know, part of being young and and looking around and thinking that everybody's facade is what's actually going on. Like it took me a while to go, oh, just because somebody shows up in sh just showered in Lululemon um ja sweat Clothes with a big cup of coffee. For me, the idea of the kind of woman I'd never be was always someone who like brewed her own coffee and put it in. In a in a thing.
In a thing, in a yeti cup. Yeah. And got to work and was like, Oh,'cause I like to do this in the morning and I put my keynote. Like I was like, when did you get a blowout? Like who did it? Who did it? Where did you go? Yeah, do you have someone who comes to your house? Day three of your blowout? These are yeah. These are questions. These things where we look at me and go, I will never be Everybody has it. Everybody has it. اشتركوا في القناة
And then I started to realize that's just their way of dealing. Like I I keep a really psychotic to do list. I have this very specific to do list system that is I won't labor, but it's taken years for me to find a system that works. I love my system. I when I finish something I put the trophy emoji next to For a little treat. A little my little treatment. You did a trick. Yeah, I did.
Then I get a treat. And my treat is that trophy emoji. And then at the end of the day, I'll carry over the things that didn't happen. And sometimes you have to put a different emoji that says, actually, I'm not going to do that anymore. That's off the list or whatever. I do want to talk about your bed. You create so much in your bed. You love your bed. I love my I love my bed too. I'm worried about your sleep. Talk to me about your sleep. Are you a night owl?
So this is gonna be involve a little bit of history, which is that we have a congenital Terror. We have a congenital It's something where we're where sleep and death get equated early in childhood. My father had it, my mother had it. Maybe that's why they fell in love and they passed it down to my brother and me. And as children, We started to get scared to go to sleep around four PM. So still today. A lot of people have that that they are very stressed about the fact that they ever go to sleep.
Yeah. around three PM to start to say, Okay, what time do you think we're gonna put pajamas on? What ti what do you think we're gonna do right before bed? Then my father would have to tell me right he'd have to take me and I'd say, Is it a sock night or is it not a sock night?'Cause I was concerned maybe I'll wake up in the night with cold feet. But wouldn't it be horrible if I woke up and they were too warm? Then my I miss Genoa Sperman's giggle. It's the greatest.
Then I would say, Can you tell me a list of things we're gonna do tomorrow to look forward to? Because I thought if I didn't have things to look forward to, I might just pass away in my sleep. Yeah, I would love to sleep train you. I would love to have a week in your house. I'm gonna wear a nurse's uniform. It's time. I'm gonna go and and I'm gonna and you're gonna start your business. You're gonna say what kind of sock? Well, I'm going to go, no, no, no. Chow, chow.
If I told you what was actually happening in my bed, the level of I'm worried about that. The the various lights that are shining at me, the animals that are scooching around, the no I mean twice a night, my rabbits will hurl themselves up into the air and just land directly on my face. Let's stop at rabbits. L let's start at rabbits. Let's ask the rabbits. If they can sleep next to the bed. Well the remote. No.
So you know the thing about rabbits is they're um lagomorphs. You don't know the thing is that they are crepuscular, which means that they are most awake at dawn and at dusk. One of the best things I did for myself is Yeah. Make sleep hygiene as important as other things. Wow. And it's was very hard because, like you, I grew up with a total like. I wanted to stay up late. I like I would have a T V in my room. Like staying up late felt like something I was good at.
S N L and I was a had I was a vampire and it was like And you know my thing when I was a teenager was that SNL reruns were on Comedy Central at midnight. And so I would my parents I my bedroom was downstairs. We lived in this weird a place in Brooklyn that was above a garage, but there was one little windowless room next to the garage, which was my room, and the landlord
JP had left his like single guy. It was like the most modern T V of nineteen ninety three. Right. And I would plug in the headphones from like American Airlines and sit this close to the television and take notes on SNL. Only Mrs. No. So sad. I mean comedy is so important. Not sad. I mean that's I mean that's like a an athlete like just, you know, shooting hoops in their driveway.
I graduated from high school in two thousand four. So one thing that I did was at St Anne's we had student IDs and the rule was that you could not come and get tickets to SNL unless you were Was it sixteen or eighteen? I don't it was I think it might be six. It was sixteen. So I was fifteen and wanted to go. Yeah. So I came up with um scheme which was I was gonna go
to get act like I lost my school ID and have them reprint it and go, you guys got my birthday wrong, and then have them move the year. And they did. And then I felt too guilty and I confessed. Before I could ever go. I was like started to think about Like this worked too well. This was too I could get addicted to this and pretty soon I'm gonna be scamming men out of their money in Florida and putting them to sleep with a little injection. I can't be on this path.
I mean, you're speaking of s like the fact that two thousand and one is twenty five years ago is insane. It's insane. There is such an incredible resurgence. Of your work. of your work, specifically girls, but all of your work and how people interact with your work. Do you think it is like this? I mean, it's like people write or I don't know the people attach it to this bigger idea of nostalgia. What?
Do you have a sense now of like what it is, like why people are going back to that show to you to the feeling that that time? Do you have a sense of why? Well, you know, it's interesting because I know that a lot I don't equate my early twenties and I think when people read the book, they'll understand why, with the exception of some very specific moments.
I don't like equate my early twenties with like a sense of jubilance and freedom just because it was really the moment when sort of adult life and adult pressure descended. So it's interesting and it's cozy. Like when I wanna be cozy, I watch parks and recreation, or as my husband calls it, parks and recreations. Ooh, it's an S. Yeah and he and once I said, You know there's no S on the end he went, You're wrong. But um
And I knew that I um I think maybe I don't do this, but I knew that I loved him because I left my dog with him for the day while I was on set and it was a big thing for me to be like, Okay, I'm gonna leave her with you, not with this dog sitter, let's see what happens. Yeah. And I checked Texted to check in and he said, We're just watching some parks and recreations. She loves John Ralphio. And I went, Okay. Okay, that's a good time.
You can stay. I would watch parks and recreations to relax, but the idea that gr and to me I'm like girls is like a stress bomb. Like it's like watching Let's talk about this. I agree. Girls can be a str is girls is a stress. Bomb. It's stressful show. I feel like when I'm watching girls, I'm like watching one of those movies where somebody has like ten minutes to disseminate a bomb. Like it's really, really
relaxes people. It and and I think it reminds them of a time. It reminds them of a time in their lives and a time in the character's lives. And a lot of people will say to me, people who are on the old on the more forty end will go, like I lived in I lived off the Lorimer stop when I was twenty three with my two best friends from college and you know
Now one of them's dead and one of them's a Republican. You know, like they are looking back at a moment that felt really good and alive to them. Yeah. And I love that they think that the girls are cozy and feel like they're their friends. Like that. Yeah. And also all I ever wanted to make I I always was sad, like I'm never gonna be the person who makes cozy TV that makes anyone wanna curl up and mm. But so if it is that for people, I also think there's something, even though
the show does have social media, even though the show, you know, there's there's like a conversation in the first episode. And I've never watched girls since we finished. So I Really? You've never done a rewatch? I've never done a rewatch. I've never done a rewatch. I just I guess I'm always thinking and I don't do you ever watch things old? Rewatched Parks and Rec with re parks and recreations. Um with my kids. If they love it.
I re i I would suggest someday you do because Rewatch Parks and Recreations? Rewatch girls because um it is just a really like concrete way to be more gentle to yourself. Like You just stuff that you would maybe be critical of kind of goes away. I I at least it did for me, and you just remembered the feeling. I didn't even remember what happened. I was like, what happens here? Does Leslie win? Like I couldn't even remember the plot, but I could remember the feeling of making the scenes.
The it was like a body feeling. Yeah. And it made me feel um grateful. It made me feel I'm really grateful. Nice. And I I wonder I ho I would wish that for you. I don't know if you will feel that, but maybe maybe you will. think I mean I love those people and I love that and there were so many wonderful times. You know, after Andrew Reynolds read the book, he was like
He was like, it was made me sad at some points because I felt like we were having so much fun. And then I read it and it didn't feel like you were having fun. And I was like, no. When we were on screen, that was the best thing ever. That was my com like that was my escape from everything else that was happening in my mind. I always felt like I could open a door into being those people.
And I remember feeling like this and it's the only time I've ever really felt this way'cause I'm not like a mystical actor in this way, but I just I felt like my whatever Lena's problems are go away and like the the problems of these particular people. Which feels like sort of light and inconsequential at the end of the day. Mm-hmm.
took over. And so I was like, no, I always felt joy when I was with you. I always felt joy when I was do it linked, hands linked with these people doing this thing. It was everything that came with it. Yeah. That was hard. You think people Write about girls or wrote about girls, got wrong about it. At the time it was like there was two ends of the spectrum, which is there are people who thought we weren't in on the joke at all.
Like that we were thought that we were making like, you know, a pressing film about like the concerns of America's neediest population and that we just were really missing the mark. Right. And then there were the people who thought that I was like so in on the joke that I remember there being conservative commentators who were like, actually this is a you know, this is she's she Yeah.
Woke millennials and she's taking them down. And I was like, actually, something can live totally between those places, which is we take them totally seriously and we totally get what's funny about it. Yeah. People underestimate young women all the time. Yes. And it was funny, it was like if if they s people didn't like the show, it was my fault. If they did like the show, it was the fault of someone else. It was just Yes. It was and really looking back
Now if somebody people come to me a lot and will go like someone's saying something mean about me on the internet, what do I do? And I always go, just don't look at it. Yeah. Just don't look at it. But I couldn't take that advice then. Of course. That's why it's when you were asking like how do you like talking about the book, how do you not like talking about the book? And then I
circled away from that. I'm gonna circle back is sometimes people will ask me, you know, why do you think people felt this way about you? Or why do you think people felt why do you think people had a strong reaction you? And I go, It's ultimately like not really my problem. Not only is it not your problem, it's not your business. How about that? Yeah. That's the way people think about you is none of your business. It's not your business.
It's not your business. It's truly not. It's just like and that is I'm checking into the hotel under the name Nanya Biz. Minding a business. Also a book written by one of sides. Um when you were when you were writing the characters for girls, um, did you think it was a show about female friendship? I thought yes, I thought it was a show about female friendship, but I was like, it's a show about like the fact that female friendship is actually
uh un until you figure out what's is and isn't your business, it's a thorny torture escape. And because the thing about women is I'm obsessed with them and part of why I'm obsessed with them is also because I'm scared of them, because they're too smart. I see. Do you know what I mean? You might not feel that way. I don't I don't but I understand what you mean because it is I I think it's very honest to bring up the fact that
complicated people, interesting complicated people uh often provide complicated, interesting like relationships. And there were times when I would watch girls and I'd be like, are they friends? The answer was often no. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they were holding on to
an idea. Part of the w reason they were friends is because sometimes when people are young, they hold on to certain friends, not just because of the good feelings they give them, but because they get to feel superior or they get to feel they get to feel like
in contrast, they're winning or they get to feel like they're shinier because they're next to the pretty person, whatever it is, and you're still like you're not when you're in your twenties, you're not even that far out of high school. Yeah. You don't even haven't even yet let go of all that stuff. And now This is interesting. I'm I have amazing my female friends are incredible. I'm not afraid of them, but I also
in my there's something about the ways that women can see each other and know each other that can feel very exposing. And the thing that's really nice is now I feel that the majority of my female relationships have re there was just a day where I woke up and went, I haven't had to exchange a really heavy email in a while. Like I haven't had to I remember once having a fight with a
um girlfriend in in our twenties and we were like going back and forth in these long point to point. Now I will not if someone raises points with me, I will not be addressing the points. Like I'm not going I'm not I'm not gonna make notes on your doc you sign and send it back to you. That's not what's happening. But
We were doing that and I remember showing it to like a boyfriend outraged and he was like, I don't even know what I mean. It's like you guys are in like a scholastic writing competition and you're each trying to write the best essay about why the other one is bad at being a friend if you feel this way and then and then moments later everyone's apologizing going, I didn't mean any of that. And it's like, well, that was a lot of energy to expend on this creative writing exercise. Say last.
Say less. That's a hard one. Someone told me recently that if somebody writes you I mean, have you ever seen that meme where someone's like um uh Or sorry that happened to you. I don't know. I'm not trying to read all that. Somebody wants to do it. Yes, I don't know. I'm not trying to read all that. Plaza on the set of parks used to take my phone when I was texting. Yeah. Ha ha ha. And I'd be like, oh I could say that too.
Well there's a big thing which is my brother taught me, he's like, do not ever reply with more lines than the person wrote you. This episode is brought to you by Coors Seltzer. Summer just got seven percent better. On top of Sunshine, barbecues, and cottages, the new 7% Coors Seltzer slushy flavor lineup.
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It's funny, your parents, you know, you talk about it in your book, you have really successful art uh um artist parents who are in that art world, which is talk about it it like in the rooms that are small. Yeah There's like high fashion, there's like s hyper intellectualism, there's and there's the art world that they both live in. Only get smaller if you're like, well, the contact improv dance community that came out of Oberlin College, where Jenna and I went, is pretty neat.
Improv contact dance, babe, that is wide open. Anybody can get in there. Ha ha ha I'm such a perv fest. Like anything that's like we have to touch each other, you're like, why? I remember I went to one of the classes when I was at Oberlin'cause I used to do like a column for the Oberlin Grape. Shout out to all you to all you grape writers out there.
And um it was like I'd go and try things on campus, see what I thought of them. Ooh, I'm gonna do Capoeira today. Ooh, and I went and did contact improv. And basically my thesis was like, Perverts. Like that was I left.'Cause they I remember they were like, Okay, now everybody remove one article of clothing of your choice and everyone was like, pants, you know, it was right away.
I mean it that is the thing about the 2000s is you look back and you're pretty much like you could just take a stamp to pretty much everything and be like perverts. Yeah. Um but before we get off girls, when now we're getting into the weeds, but now when Jessa betrayed Hannah. Yeah, that was hard. That was hard for a lot of people. That was hard for Jemima didn't want to do it. I bet. Jemima was like, Don't make me do this. I bet it's a real villain move.
But what it allowed us, I think, in in in the writing was it allowed us to really see Hannah in a way that we hadn't yet. Yeah. And Also it was just like the end of a cycle of story. Also think that part of the reason that sh the way she justified that to herself in the moment.
is that she was like, Well, Hannah hasn't maybe always been the most considerate friend to me. And she might have had Hannah might have this idea, here's what friends don't do. They don't sleep with your boyfriend, your ex-boyfriend and they don't
I don't know, you know, they don't sleep with your ex boyfriend, they don't push you in front of a car and everything else is fair game. And she's like, No, you've cut away at our friendship with all of these other little moves. And the other thing is because Hannah doesn't see herself as a person with any power, she doesn't realize that she's capable of hurting anybody else. Продолжение следует...
She's the world is happening to her. Yes. And I hope that as she grows, she realizes that actually she is often happening to the world. And I I just wanna say kudos to you for that moment, not only because it was audacious writing and just good moving the story forward, but we were paying attention to Jessa and Hannah. Like that's who we were caring about. really nice and it's you know, Jemima and I have been friends since we were eleven. So it was It was
always really interesting when we got to really dig into the story together. Because often we were just, you know, yeah, in the same in the same room at the same party, raising our eyebrows at the same thing. And when we got to do those big, chunky emotional scenes together. It was amazing. But I do remember her
when I was directing the scene where she and Adam kissed for the first time, she was really I could see her panic because it went against every instinct she had about behavior. And I had to say, I'm not he's not really my boyfriend and I'm not really gonna get mad. Right. He's actually Just acting. acting, and so are we. Yeah. at the end of the day, yeah, neither of us kissed each other's ex boyfriend, so we're gonna be fine. Yeah.
And probably even if one of us did kiss each other's ex-boyfriend, we'd be fine. And you were like, put on this Patagonia lightweight. Santa Cruz. Put on this patigate. Call this man to paint your walls and we're gonna be fine. Fine, fine. Yeah. Um, okay. Uh I want to get your hot takes on a few things. Okay, great. These are completely random things, but I feel like you have strong hot takes that I would love to give. Okay, great. There's no right or wrong. I spent you're amazing on TikTok and
Thank you. Welcome to TikTok. I've seen your TikToks. My algorithm knows who I am, obviously, and a lot of them are from your bed. But what I like about TikTok, I mean, I'm sure like everything the culture's changing, but what I like about it is it seems like it's allowed a lot of people to find like minded folks and to find people who are I always see like A woman alone in a farmhouse feeding grizzly bears from a pan who's found her friends.
Like found your friends and also I think there's just good Comedy there. There's good comedy, there's good educational content. And you know, I don't want to be watching someone like sell me a freckle stick, but I do I mean my TikTok algorithm when I still had it was women with pigs. And I like um when there's us where in Australia where um sex work is legal, I love to watch women count their money and talk about their experience. Yes. And and the their money counters.
Yeah, I love that and I love our ASMR nail. Also I like the women who work at um like exotic dancing clubs and are at the front and they're and you don't see the patrons but you see them deciding who's gonna come in. Yes, I love that too. I love Hãy subscribe cho kênh La La School Để không bỏ lỡ những video hấp dẫn
Work. When I love women at work in all ways, I love and sometimes what's hard is you'll watch someone over time and they start really authentic and then you see like a little taste of I mean, this is what I was talking about in the book. A little taste of fame makes us all sick. It's not it's Very true. Shorter question Diet Coke, yes or no? Do you know the kids the kids have been calling it fridge sig? Yeah, love it.
I love Diet Coke. I don't think it's an everyday thing. Agree. My mother. It's a treat. You do a trick? Yeah. I cook when I my mother every time she gets a mammogram and since she was forty she Every time she gets a mammogram, she gets a New York City hot dog and a diet coke. A dirty water hot dog and a diet coke. So it's her Yes. That's the full carcinogens package. After Alter, O Mary.
Oh, I'm so excited. We love Meg. We love Meg. I'm so excited. I mean, just what glee it will be that I mean, that show, that woman. She's such a funny special person. She is a h she is sh hilarious. I've had the pleasure of working with her a few times. Also, I'm loving how she's interacting. Talking about like fame and the interaction. Something really interesting. Um, least favorite current fashion trend? I've always said that my style is um like Braddy five year old with a credit card.
Oh that makes a lot of sense. Like it's like a girl who's like, My dad gave me this and he said I can get whatever I want and then you Yeah. You just can because so many of the things that also because my parents have good taste when I was a kid a lot was like, You don't want that. That's not you don't want that sparkly leopard velore tunic and matching w like warmers, yes I do. And now I'm an adult who makes my own and I can have
get that vibe from you. It's you're very high low in that way. Like I love that you like you know a ton about really um like uh esteemed artists and writers and then also you like you don't feel like a snob about it. It's hard because you know New York kids can sometimes like have access And then, you know, people feel like they're not allowed to get in the room and you do not give off that vibe. I like I mean I love I love reality television. Yeah. Do you still love reality television?
television? I don't but I I did you used to? No. I mean I wasn't a Housewives fan because it it fucks with my nervous system a little bit. I get it. The way people are arguing and misunderstanding each other. I do enjoy a uh a below deck uh I enjoy a um jobs-based You like job space programming. And I will say one nice thing about England is there's a lot of shows that you can watch that are unscripted but relaxing. There's a lot of like, would you like to watch this?
um this very uh well decorated female historian take you on a tour of the oldest castle in Wales. Merrybeard, we live for you. And or would we like to, you know, I mean Great British Bake Off's an example. But that's not reality. In my opinion. Well I I I mean I guess it's real. I got a to go on the Great British Bake Off. They do like a s charity celebrity bake off.
And I went, I don't cook. I do I don't I don't cook. I don't clean. Let me tell you how I got that ring. I don't have anything to do with it, but I thought Okay, like this is a surely they can't expect that much of us. They're not calling in they're not calling in you know, chefs, they're calling in actors and writers. They and
They put me on the phone with a producer and said like you the first challenge is gonna be a crumpet challenge. You are supposed to make a crumpet that expresses who you are. Okay. So I was like, well, I have British short hair cat. they're gray, I could do a crumpet that had like um some gray coloring and then do ears on it and then eyes and it could be like my cats as a crumpet and they went, okay, great. So maybe almond butter could be the eyes.
and you could do some sort of like a raspberry jam for the mouth. Um, Paul obviously does not is not comfortable with any store-bought jams or butters. So, but we have a really simple pistachio butter recipe that we could send you. And I actually have a great short book on making jam. Wait. What? And I was like
Making jam. And then I said, you know, I've never cooked a crumb, but is there some like basics? Do I have to go back to some basics? And they said, Well, there's a great book called The Science of Baking, which we can send you, which kind of and then I started to describe it to Michael, my business partner. He's like, Have you
f ever loving mind? Like, are you about to put in and then I was gonna go over to my friend Rose's sister's house because she bakes and she was like, I actually do have a familial crumpet recipe that if you try it nine, ten times. And then they said to me, Um, ovens go on at eight A. M. and off at six PM and I made some joke and I was like, Well, at least you guys will help me turn those on. They was like, Oh no, we're not allowed to touch any of the knobs and I just went We're
We're out of here. I'm sorry guys. I love that no for you. That's a good no. And I because I love to try to become an expert at something really quickly. But this was be beyond this was way beyond anything that I could handle. Plus the tension of Paul not being happy. Those um What about jam? Yeah, those husky eyes shootin lasers at you because of the jam. Okay. The new moon album. Do you love it? Of course, I love everything that Muna touches. Theme parts. Do you love them?
Do not think that I have been to a theme park in adulthood and I and it may be one of the only things I'm comfortable saying, I won't do again before I die. You. I'm I I agree. I I I I respectfully decline. Um would you ever have a robot in your house? I think that my I think that I would cathet onto and anthropomorphize the robot too much. Sorry, what was the word you used? Tell me if I used it correctly. Incredible new word alert. Cassette. Effect. Tell me what you're seeing. Perfect.
I'm not even gonna defi- I'm just gonna- It's a verb that means to invest mental or emotional energy into a person, object, or idea. So like um anthropomorphize kind of. I would anthropomorphize the robot. They often therapists will sometimes say, like, if you are s projecting on they'll say, like, we've had an we've had an episode of cathexis. Would you have a robot in your house?
I would. But I feel like I'd be able to control it until I kill until it killed me. Okay. And then um you we have talked about um my producer Jenna, who you have known for twenty years. Yes, they have. I have a question. What was Jenna like when she was twenty three? Jenna was Cool. I'd like Jenna still is. Jenna was like a cool hot hipster who knew all who lived in Brooklyn and knew all in like the f one of
One of the f I was still in college and went to go hang out at Jenna's apartment. Mm-hmm. It was on the second floor on Atlantic Avenue. Kind of correct, right? It was on the second floor on Atlantic Avenue and she had like like a rustic boat wheel that they had upcycled and used as like a piece of wall ornamentation. Jenna. And Jenna wore like one of those little um, you know, bike messenger hats. Sure. And I will always remember I'm gonna embarrass Jenna right now.
Jenna had a girlfriend. I don't want to s upset anyone, but Jenna had a girlfriend and Jenna always can cut this if she wants. She's the boss. Yeah. And I love that like I used to get to sleep in a room like We had like multiple twin beds. For some reason there was like a room with three twin beds and only two girls. At Oberlin? At Oberlin. We had a room. Somehow we'd gotten lucky and so I pushed.
two of them together to make a queen and then somehow ended up like in my queen with Jenna having to share the single with somebody else and interesting and I was sort of like you guys share. The single? Sara the single girlfriend and a guy and I remember going saying some using some insane logic like, listen, you guys should feel really lucky you have each other and what I have is this queen that I made out of two shitty old mattresses.
So just to go over it, when you and Jenna were in college, Jenna was sharing a single with her girlfriend who was Yeah. You had a queen. Still victimized. Correct. Yeah. I was like, guys, you know, it's like kinda hard to just be sitting here as a single person having to look at all this love. I've been through a lot. And so and also you might remember that I had to go home from college last year because I have chronic mono. So So just think about other people.
I shouldn't have done that, Jenna and I'm sorry. Looking back, it's deranged behavior, but we only have to make things make sense to us, really. That's right. Okay, and then um let's talk about good sex. Because
So we have this thing. Yep. Uh uh Good Sex is a new movie coming out on Netflix. It's uh uh rom com that you wrote and directed. Yep. Natalie Portman spoke to us today. We got a question from Natalie. Natty And who spoke so beautifully about you as a person and as a director, said something that I just like I will really think about um and take with me, which is that she felt very seen by you when she was um being directed by you.
Of course you felt like you set a tone for not only like everyone on the set, but you were paying very close attention to what people were doing. And also just like gave specific feedback when you liked something, which I know sounds like duh, but it's not always the case. Yeah. Because we are so we have such a bias to talk about what needs to be fixed and we kind of forget to say like, Oh, that was good. I like that good job.
It's funny it's Firstly I'm so t Natalie Portman is I mean, she was such a big deal to me when I was youth'cause she was just the cool girl's cool girl, the the Thinky Woman's Ingenu, the everything. And and meeting her was one of the rare moments where I really kind of got
tongue tied and goofy. And then she makes you feel really cozy. But getting to work with her and getting to know her and getting to know her magic and her friendship with Rashida, which has existed for like almost 30 years. Yes. She's everything you'd think she would be, but I feel like
So you know how we were saying like women are so so good at things that they're then punished for it? Yeah. Like they people go, Well, you did that. Well, I guess you'll just keep doing that well and we'll lay more on you.
Natalie is such a good actress and she's such a good actress even in moments where she doesn't have to be. She exudes it like you have a shot that's like her on a telephoto lens crossing the street in traffic and she does something interesting with her face. So I was like, I think that
Almost people don't wanna say you're the most amazing actress I've ever seen because they feel like it makes them look like gauche or dorky or they should just be accepting this as reality. But every single day I went, That's insane what you're doing right now. And watching her be goofy is so fun. She is a big goof. She's a goof. Well, she had a great goofy question for you. Excited.
She said, and it's funny because we talked about this, we started talking about this, she said, what is the best pig to adopt? Because she said you have pet pigs. We talked about pigs. She wants to know what kind of pig'cause we got into she's in Paris. I apparently there's a wild boar situation in Paris. I want to get political. But we and she knows and she's not ready to be a pig parent yet where she is.
She's a rabbit parent, but she's not ready to be a pig parent. And she's a really good dog mom too. But yeah. But what's the best kind of pig? Yes. Well in your opinion. Okay. So obviously there's so here's something for anyone at home to know if you're thinking about adopting a pig. Very good. There if someone tells you that you are getting a teacup pig, you are not. If someone tells you you're getting a mini pig, you're not.
A mini pig is any pig that's under five hundred pounds, is what is classed as a mini pig. Very important to know. Unlike a farm sow, which can go up to like 1400 pounds. And also, pigs, unlike dogs, like you don't have a sense from their piglet size of how big they're gonna be, because they keep growing until they're five. Yeah.
Wow. And they also another fact about pigs, not two sets of teeth, three sets of teeth. They lose their teeth twice. Um, and I've been saving all those pig teeth for a s rainy day. Just for a Nightmare some kind of nightmare scenario. Exactly right. Two of the pigs that are in my life are Maishon pigs. Machine pigs are they're now actually classed as critically endangered, but they are a
They are a Chinese species that dates back at least five thousand years. They look like they're famous for a few things. They're amazing mothers. They have huge litters up to like seventeen or eighteen at a time and they mother them expertly. Oh dear. They look like little elephants. Wow. And they don't root a lot and they don't, they don't they forage, not root, and they're just chillers. And so if you have
Space, you might think, let me go with the smallest pig that will be easiest. But actually, a machine is a great, cozy, I think. Really good beginner. Which is seventeen or eighteen piglets. The other thing is that I've learned is a solo pig's not nice. I know because so so animals in general. So animals in general, but a dog seems like they can get a lot of what they need from like you're my buddy, you're my buddy, I'm gonna go out on the street and see my buddies. But pigs can't just
Because they're very territorial, they can't just like casually have play dates with another pig. They either need to be in a life together. And when I got my first pig, Victor, who I thought would be a solo pig, he was talking all day long. And I just thought, I'm trying, buddy, but I don't know what you're saying. And so that's why we got cherry. Cherry and Victor? Yeah. And it was an arranged marriage. Simon.
Play. It was an arranged marriage. We didn't know how it would go. And what I loved is that the first day that we let them, he went over and kind of started to like. get a little aggro with her and she bit him on the butt as hard as she could and from that down he was like It's your scene, lady. Like he's It's like a rom com. Yeah. It was a pig rom com. And now she s does spends a lot of time sitting on his head. Oh and she took off her little pig glasses and he was like, You're beautiful.
Lena Dunham. Amy Paul. So lovely to talk to you. I'm so happy you could come. Thank you. Congratulations on your movie. Congratulations on your thank you. Yeah. And um um, you know, I we've known each other for a very long time. It's really, really nice to see you again. Really nice to see you too. You are a really I mean, it's a well-named I said to someone when that I was going on the podcast and I was like, and it's not like she's a good hang. Thanks, dude. Right back at you.
30th babe. Thanks. Come on over to the other side. It's so great over here. Thank you so much, Lena Dunham. Just so smart and interesting. Such a great discussion with you. And um thank you so much for being here. And you know, Lena is a New York City kid.
And we're gearing up for a New York City summer. And for all you people headed to Broadway, I wanna use this polar plunge to remind you that three Champions Three comedic giants are on Broadway right now as we speak, and that is Anagas Dyer in Schmigadoon, that is Maya Rudolph and O'Mary, and that is Rachel Draft.
in the Rocky Horror Picture Show. So get your tickets, babe, because this kind of event only happens every hundred years when all of these beautiful women are on stage at the same time. And aren't we lucky to be alive when that's happening? So Um, congratulations, ladies, and um congratulations to you if you get a chance to see them. And thank you for listening and see you soon. Bye.
You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman, and me, Amy Polar. The show is produced by The Ringer and PaperKite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane. Kaya McMullen and Alea Zaniris. For Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.