Hayley Williams

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Good Hang. This is such a good one. You know, this is a guest who I wanted on since I started this podcast, and I am such a fan. It is Haley Williams. A beautiful artist, an incredible singer, songwriter. You might know her from the band Paramore, but she's out with her third solo album, Ego Death at the Bachelorette Party. And she's just...

so special and we had such a good time. And we're going to talk about a lot of stuff today. We're going to talk about working with David Byrne. We're going to talk about you know, Wayne's world and how important of a movie it is. We're going to talk about being short, pros and cons, and we're going to warm up and warm down because that's what a person does when they take care of their voice.

But most importantly, we're going to start this podcast like we always do. We're going to talk to someone who knows Hayley Williams and knows her well. And today we have Doug Peck. Now, Doug Peck is a musical director, a... teacher voice teacher, if you will. He's also a trained musician and pianist and he works with Haley to get her voice just right. And I know him in a very special way too. So let's find out what that is and let's get Doug on the line. Hi. Doug?

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Hi, my queen. It's so good to see you. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for doing this. I mean, Doug, we could do an entire episode on your life, your talent. How did we meet? We met through our buddies, Katherine Hahn and Rashida Jones. Both of their episodes were so good.

Where two years ago at the Christmas season, we thought it would be fun to do some Christmas music together at Rashida's house. And you walked in, you're like, hi. And we instantly fell into a beautiful rapport. so beautifully sang all the alto parts of all the Christmas carols we sang. And I'll never forget you saying, it feels like the song is on some distant shore and we're the boat that's pulling away from it. Altos.

Give it up for Altos. Pour one out for Altos. Well, I realized, you know, we were like, we want to put together a choir because we were... feeling like we wanted to do something communal and for the community. And then Catherine said, I'm working with this incredible person named Doug. And then I realized much later, it was like saying,

I know this woman named Julia Child. She's going to come and teach us how to make a chicken. Like we had the best of the best. We were so lucky. Well, thanks, Catherine, for introducing us. Speaking of Julia Child, Amy, let's get your head voice. Okay. Julia Child. Okay. So Doug, what should I do? Thank you. Can you give us a good old acting class? And then show us a little siren from low in your range to high in your range back to low in your range. Good. Really good. Can you?

roll your shoulders while you do that and keep yourself nice and cozy comfy oh my god my shoulders god I forget I have shoulders I'm rubbing them over the room so they can relax Doug is a good shoulder rubber and not in a creepy way no no not in a creepy way Never, never. Roll your shoulders out. Really good. People are laughing.

She's using her voice. I know. Let's do actually one of Hailey's favorite warmups. Can you do Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey. Doug has a piano right under. I can't believe you have a piano. Doug has a piano right there. Amazing. This is the first on Good Hang. Someone has a piano right below frame. Okay. So this is one of Haley's. Okay, go ahead. Can you give it to me again, Doug?

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Great job, Amy. How does that feel? That is Haley's favorite warmup. It's one of them. We have a whole list of things. I've seen photos of you guys together and the way that you use breath. I mean, I want to talk to her a lot about that today. Her voice is one of my favorites. I think when we met, when I found out you guys worked together, I kind of freaked out.

Imagine how I felt working with her for the first time. It was like, you're going to go do a session with Hayley Williams. I was like, great. I bet I'm going to learn as much as she is. What was that first session like? It was.

Total love at first sight. Haley is, you know, especially when someone's as incredible as she is, when they're such an open student and a student of life and just everything I've ever said to her, I feel like she just sponges it in and she remembers something I said three years ago. We'll make a great sound. And she'll be like, oh, that reminds me of Warming Up for the Eras Tour. And I like how that one sounded. Let's work on that again. And she's...

Always willing to work on what she's great at as well as what doesn't come as easily to her. And she's such a Capricorn. She's always ready to climb that next mountain. And this new album of hers is so incredible. It's so good. I know. I have so many. Did you hear any of it when it was being like, did she come in and say, I'm working on the song. I want to practice this song with you. Yes. And then.

Plopped down on the couch. It was like, yeah, I got 18 new songs. You want to hear them? It's like, yeah, I do. And then she's like, some of these are really low. We should probably work on that. I was like, I cannot wait, Hayley. Let's go. Oh, wow. So that's interesting to me. Like a singer knows, okay, I'm going to have to perform these. And I'm going to have to work on figuring out how to get my voice to sing these all the time. That's right. And sometimes when they record, they've...

you know, they've never done it live all the way through. And our sessions are the first amazing time. I'm so lucky where you're like, okay, start at the beginning and sing it through and pick which backgrounds you want to do and which ad libs you want to do. And sometimes even great people like Haley are like,

whoa, this doesn't feel at all like it felt on the record. Let's find a way to do it live. And that's just such a joy. I always think about that and I want to ask her, and I think she was very... has spoke about it in a really funny way, which is, you know, you write a song in your twenties that you then have to sing 10 years later. And it's a note that's like, you know,

Whatever. And it's like, damn, you got to hit that. I bet she regrets it. I'm really proud of her because that was one that wasn't always in the Paramore performances. And she was determined to get it back in the set. Dang.

We worked totally 360 on it with both the vocals and her confidence. How do you work on that? How do you work? And what is that note, by the way, Doug? Let's hear that on the piano. What's that note? She's singing C's, B-flats, and an E in that piece. Top of her name in a really chesty belt. Chesty belt. Oh, there's so much chest voice in it. And it's from the... soul and she gets her whole body behind it and we worked on you know having her look up to her friends in the first balcony and

Have her whole throat be open while she makes those sounds. Knowing in her eyes that she's going to crush it when she takes the breath to do it. And then watching the reward and watching the audience reaction.

It's just so soul satisfying. She also does a lot of vocal cool downs. So after the show, we warm her voice back down and help it relax, which helps her with the next night and helps her take a second to say, oh, yeah, I did do that really well tonight. And I did use. the proper technique to sing that.

And also we've had fun days where she's like, yeah, I just wanted to scream. So I screamed that one and helped me. Help me like get my voice back. She is after all a rock star. Well, I mean, it's, it's, I want to ask her about it. Just the idea that you have to keep your voice. I mean, I just, you know, when you lose your voice, you lose the show. The show's over. It's really an intense stress. What do you do? How do you help people not lose their voice?

We have straws. We have straws in water. We do gentle. Wait, what do straws do? You take a straw, which gets proper closure and back pressure at your vocal folds. You have one. Somebody get me a straw. Somebody get Amy Poehler a straw. Somebody get me a straw. Watch this. I need a straw. There's no straw in here. I mean, they were never going to find a straw. Okay. So you get a straw. Oh my God. There's a straw flying in. Jenna has a straw.

Incredible. Thank you, Jenna. Is it a metal straw? Is a metal straw okay? It could be fine. It doesn't matter what it's made of. Because all you young people want the straws to be metal now, so can't find a paper one. And do you have a little liquid in that mug you got there? I do. Are you going to spill it if you blow bubbles into it? No, blow bubbles into it. Stick the straw in there. Okay. And just blow bubbles. Now do the same thing with the tones while you blow the bubbles.

Oh my God, Amy Poehler is doing straw bubbles. That's a big thing we do in cool down to help the voice reset. It's like a little massage for the vocal cords after heavy use. You know, it's so amazing. And now, honestly, having a podcast, I've realized I see what it does, even just talking, what it does to your vocal cords, and they need a lot of love.

Well, we can help you come up with a warmup and a cool down before taping days. I'd love to do that with you. Doug, listen, I'd love that. And I'd also love to make every guest watch me do it and make them very uncomfortable while I take my time doing it, you know? Okay. So Haley is coming in today and I hope I don't, as the kids say, glaze her too hard, but I just, I love her. You probably will. I know I will. I love her. What do you think is a question?

that I should ask Haley today that she doesn't get asked or that you'd want to hear or you think it would be a good thing for us to talk about. Okay, I thought of two. So you can decide if you want to do one or both. One, you know how Batman has the bat symbol in the sky? If there was going to be a symbol in the sky to summon Hayley Williams, what would it be?

What an incredible question. So creative. And then the other one is, you know how everybody has like, what's your last meal? I want to know what is the last song she wants to hear before she dies. I mean, so emotional. Yeah, welcome. What is the last song you want to hear before you die? Whoa. That's a heavy answer too. I bet she'll know the answer. That's so cool. I mean, I want to think about that for myself too.

I know the ones I don't want to hear. I don't want to hear like elevator music or like the sound of a carousel. I'm trying to think of what I don't want to hear. You don't want to be bored and you don't want to feel like a clown. As I finish, you have worked with a lot of great women. Yes. Who have you had the privilege to work with? you know some days amy i'm like oh it's an all-girl schedule and i'm so happy

So it could be a Catherine Hahn, Patti LuPone, Billie Eilish, Hayley Williams. I've worked with Phoebe Bridgers a lot lately. Oh, you're working with her today. Not to brag, but you told me that. That is true. Thank you for making the scheduling work. We'll work around Phoebe.

That's a good choice. I'm working with Rico Nasty these days and Lauren Mayberry from churches and lots of up and coming people, including, by the way, Hayley is the biggest music fan in the world and she's always scouting. And every once in a while, she'll discover somebody.

And she'll tell me or she'll tell her manager to tell me, like, make sure Doug does a lesson with that person because we want that person to start getting ready to tour and sing all the time. So some of the great people you haven't quite heard of yet, but you will. I had a student record her Tiny Desk concert today, Annie DeRusso.

Oh my gosh. Wow. That's exciting. Well, I love you. I love seeing you. I miss you very much. I hope we get, you know, we should let everybody know that our choir was called the Something Something Singers and we did two shows. We did it for the Motion Picture Academy, the retirement home in L.A., and we did it for L.A. Children's Hospital. Can I show you my Hayley Williams tattoo? Yes.

Oh. That. That is Hayley Williams on stage at the Airas Tour spitting in the air in her trans rights top. I was like, I fucking love this woman so much. So, Doug, you know, we don't ever get any talented pianists here. So could you finish our time by just playing us out? I'm going to give you a little bit of True Believer, which is my favorite on this. True Believer. Here we go. Do you like gadgets? I like gadgets and I like them even better when I have them delivered from Best Buy on Uber Eats.

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Haley Williams is here. Hi. So happy that you're here. Oh my god. I feel like I've waited for this my whole career, my whole life. I've been making music for 20 years so that I could finally get to you.

Wow. You know what? This is, I'm blushing because you are, when we made this podcast, we were like talking about dream guests and you were one of them. Oh my God. I don't even, I really don't know what to say to that. Okay. Well, you better figure it out. I'm going to think about it. We're rolling. No. We were talking about having you on today. And, okay, I'm kind of nervous. What? I'm such open. Thank you so much. And as the kids say, I'm going to, I'm just going to.

Glaze you. I'm going to be doing a lot of glazing. Glaze me. It's going to be a glaze fest. I'll glaze you back. Are you on some kind of tour right now? Well, like basically a promo. I mean, this has been really nice. I feel like I've only had. I've only had to do the stuff that's been like I've really felt excited to do. But, you know, it's like being on camera. It's just I just feel like I'm on the Internet.

all the time and I so I won't be on tour until next year and by that time I hopefully I have a dumb phone and I just don't see the internet or yeah how do you feel I mean your gen has an interesting relationship with the internet yeah it is like A love-hate relationship, basically. It is a love-hate. Yes. I'm really addicted to it. Me too. It sucks. I feel like I thought maybe— My generation was more addicted than you guys. Really? But you guys are the most. Well, I mean, how old was I when?

My mom. My mom was a teacher. So like a public school teacher. My mom was a public school teacher. Like you grew up. Did you grow up going to her classrooms and stuff? Yes. It was the best. Okay. What kind of teacher was your mom? Back then she was teaching elementary school like. Second and third grade. And I never, she was never my teacher, but I went to that school. Same. Isn't it funny to have your mom as a teacher in the school? Did you hang out at the school afterwards?

Yeah. We often got there early if we were going in with her or we'd stay after. And you kind of like see the other teachers after school, which is a trip. It's such, it's like, it's like mean girls when they see. Tina at the mall. Yeah, when they peek in and see Tina at the mall, yeah. It really is like that. That resonated with me deeply. I know, it does feel like you're peeking behind the curtain. Yeah. Very...

Like, don't look at the wizards. Right. Yeah. Okay. When you came in, you asked about a mutual friend that we have. Yes. Yes. So we do have a mutual friend and he's the most loveliest guy ever. His name is. What is his name? Doug Peck. So we have a thing on this show where we, at the beginning of each episode, we kind of talk well behind our guests back. And we talk to somebody who knows them and get a question from them to ask you.

And we talked to Doug Peck today. You did? Yes! Love him! And he gave me a vocal warm-up for us to do. Shut your mouth. I... This is the best day of my life. Okay, and I kind of forget what he said. Okay, maybe I can pick up on it. He also amazingly had a piano.

right under frame that he started to play and was like where is that coming from but because i was like doug i'm excited to talk to hailey and and he's like okay and he gave us he gave he said one of your favorite warm-ups is that like um well i think it's like i'm afraid to do it but it was like Oh, yeah. It's like with your belly. Because I really have trouble connecting to my diaphragm sometimes. He asked me, how is your body feeling? And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

Okay, so let's do it. Okay, so feel your belly kind of bounce when you... Okay, and then you can add notes to it. So like... Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. It really wakes up this whole like everything. It does. Yeah, it really helps. We were just talking today about you. And I mean, there's just it's hard to not start with. Your voice, because your voice to me. And here comes the glaze. Your voice to me is. It is its own.

Country. It's like, it has such an incredible history. Like, I feel like I've been a fan of it and you and your work for so long and I've watched it change. And what I love about this new record, which I love, Ego Death. at a bachelorette party is the way you kind of play around with your voice in a confident, in my opinion, a confident way as someone who feels like they're ready to just kind of like.

see where their voice goes and play around with it. So I guess my, my first question to you is when did you form a relationship with your voice? Whoa, that's a cool question to think about. I think. I was remembering this not too long ago, and I think this must be it. I would go to church with my mom and with my family as a kid. And I was I was a very anxious, stressed out little kid. And my mom and I kind of, you know, she was in a not great marriage. It was my mom's second marriage.

And I think I just had anxiety a lot. So we'd go to church and everyone would sing out of the hymnal. And they're not fun songs to sing, right? Sure. You know, it's boring when you're a kid, especially. Right. But I noticed that my stomach ache would go away. And I couldn't explain it, but I just, I started singing. I started singing more.

to the hymns along you know along with the hymns at church and um it just soothed me you know it like I think it grounded me and it slowed me down and then obviously you know All these many, many years later and everything that I love to learn about the body and especially what body keeps the score type stuff. I'm really interested in that. And reading about how.

The voice can tone the vagus nerve, which controls so much of this anxiety stuff and how we regulate. It makes perfect sense. But I intuited that as a—I must have been—I mean, God, I must have been like eight or nine years old. That's really interesting. Even just doing that thing we just did, right? Like even the exhalation of breath, even that is.

And it is major when you actually do it, you realize, oh, I've been holding my breath. Oh, my God. Yes. I mean, and I do a lot of sighing around the house. And I used to just think that was my personality, like. You know, as if I was over it. But I realized it was just an exhalation of anxiety. That was just basically it. I was just trying to get some breath out. And you were soothing yourself, like your system, by doing it. Yeah, it's...

I love that science. I just that's endlessly fascinating. And Doug, because he's a somatic voice coach, we do so many things that I think.

If you've never done that kind of work from the outside would look really weird. And I get up and I move around a lot during our lessons. You're making me think of two things. One, which is I often say and have said on this podcast, like when I get to a party.

i'm anxious i like to dance and i realize like of course i like to just do exactly that kind of thing like shake it out that's good but the other thing is and i want to talk to you about performing you have written a lot of songs where you have to just like get to this note that maybe you wrote. 20 years ago. I mean, some person is like, okay, I could, you know, I got to get to it. And I was saying to Doug, like, it's really hard to, it's like.

high dive where everyone's you know and I'm thinking specifically of a couple moments like all I wanted yeah oh my the anxiety okay but you nailed it that's Doug but talk to us about like For example, the journey of, and for people who don't know, there is an amazing song, a Paramore song, and it hits a note that is like so satisfying for you to get. What is the note of that? Is it a...

I actually don't know. Doug knew and I forget. Doug knows. A, E? Usually my sweet spot of like not too high, and I can keep doing this throughout a show, is around an E above middle C. Which is like, so if middle C is in the center of the piano, you're like right here. So could you, could you whisper that sound? You don't have to sing it, but could you, so is it like. Like from the song? No, but it's like, yeah. I don't have perfect pitch, so I don't think I could pick it out out of thin air.

Let's just guess and then Doug can be at home and he can tell us I was wrong later. I have a laptop too. I can. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So what's the note we want? We want C above middle C. Because I didn't even know that existed. I think E is kind of where I end up belting a lot of Paramore songs. But I think all I wanted might be higher than that. And that's why it's always scared me because it's just my muscle memory. One, two, three.

four one two three four so it's it's got to be higher than that C above middle C. But I think that E is the one. I want to try E above middle C. Yes, E above middle C. Let's go higher. I don't know. Let's go higher. The laptop's going to catch on fire. Okay, here we go. E above middle C. I think this is it. Okay. No. That's a lower one. That's a lower one. That's mid-piano note. I'm so sorry. Why do I think all I want? I think all I wanted is higher than this. Yeah, you did it too.

Come to a voice lesson. Let's get this down. Okay. So you, but you, the journey of, and I, and I let, thank you for letting me digress into this before we talk about record, but, but talk about like, so you've got this. note for example a note like that and you're driving to it and you want to sing it on tour and you're deciding like okay I want to make sure I want to bring this back in and how do you then

train for that moment. Oh, I mean, a lot of warming up and warming down after shows. I've already heard about warming down. Warming down. Do you ever do it? No, I'm learning. It really helps. Can you read me? No, I did maybe for a few years in my life when I took piano, but I got so bored with the theory part. I just wanted to.

play shit that i wanted to sing along to yeah so um it's really i really regret it when i listen to someone like doug talk about theory and And spout off this stuff that's so inherent to him as an artist and as a teacher. It's like, dang, I really should have stayed in piano lessons. It feels like everybody who quit feels that way. It would have been cool if I just... kept chugging along with the flute, I would have been such a badass. Can you play any instruments? No. I can play...

A few chords on guitar and like a song or two on the piano. And I used to play flute when I was a kid. You did. Yes. And imagine if I could really. Flute is chic. I mean, maybe. But you know what I liked about the flute? The most embarrassing part? What? Cleaning it. Cleaning it. I'm so sorry. But for those people that had our food, at the end, you were like, I played it and look, I didn't learn anything. And then you take it apart.

unscrew it and you had to clean all the parts and your special brushes and you put it back in the flute case and you were like no it's clean does this translate to like other parts of your life do you like to clean and organize oh yeah very much so very much so what's that like It's like a way to quiet the ticky-tacky of my brain. It's just like, well, the food's clean.

And it's in the box. I gotta take that up. Okay, so little Haley's singing in church, but you know how to play guitar and piano. How do you learn that? Now I know how to play guitar, but back then, I think I probably only knew how to... play piano and I was learning to play the drums. You know, I saw one video of Zach Hansen on the television when I was a kid and I was like, now I got to play drums.

I, yeah, I started playing eventually and I would play at church, you know, like I think my experience of music when I was living in Mississippi was just so much at church. There's no friends. I didn't know anyone at school that wanted to play music. Um,

But, you know, there was access to instruments and things at the church. And you moved to Tennessee when you were a teen? Yeah. And that kind of changed everything, right? That kind of blew my world open. I mean, I met Zach, who's our drummer, the first day of this homeschool program. that my mom put me in. I tried to go to public school. I was such a nerd. I really got bullied. So I didn't make it very long there. It's okay. When I think about it now, I'm like...

It was my mom and I were on such an adventure. We had run away from Mississippi. This was like, you know, the great wide world. And I. I didn't really, again, I got to this public school and I was like, well, none of these, there's like one goth kid at the school that like will talk to me about music. And that was it. And then I met Zach the first day of this other program. And he was like.

you gotta come hear me in my brother's band. And he's younger than me. And I'm going like, oh, there are people my age that like to make stuff and they see the world a little differently. And I'm not.

crazy I think it's always tender when bands come together that first part because it's like what do you like what do you like and you guys were especially young we were so little who were you who did you you know how you kind of trade bands with each other to just test taste who did you guys both like say that you liked you know in those early years like I think Zach already had this

He already knew of a different world of music that I was not exposed to yet. And he kind of showed me that. And it was bands like Failure. It was bands like... And you will know us by the Trail of Dead. Yes. You know, like it was Hum, who are playing shows next year, I just found out. I probably won't get to see him because I'll probably be on tour. I know when you're on tour, you can't do anything. I can't do anything. Even like you bring.

out a band that you love that you want to hang out and watch and you're just like warming up while they're on stage you know Zach just loved I mean Zach is the reason that I knew Elliott Smith's music as a really young kid. I remember him making me mix CDs. So I got such a cool education really fast. He had two older brothers that also liked cool music. A lot of people learn their music from their older siblings. Yes, and I didn't have any older siblings. Oh, you're...

Eldest daughter. Yeah, I knew it. Oh, my God. Capricorn, too, I heard. Are you Capricorn? No, I'm a Virgo by Earth sign. Earth sign. And I'm a Virgo moon. Ooh, I have a Leo moon. That's why I have this podcast. Oh, my God. God, it makes so much sense. I must, I must get, I must get some attention. So for people who don't know, like you, you met the people that would become

members or founders of Paramore when you were a teeny tiny baby in high school. And you've been with this band for 20 plus years.

touring all the time, making records all the time. And this record is your third solo record. And what is so interesting to me and what, and getting back to a question about your voice is. What is the difference between being the lead singer in a band out on stage performing and being yourself performing without the band behind you?

Is that not the million dollar question? I do not know. Right? Because it's a completely different set of skills. It is. I'm very, I'm finding myself because we're planning shows for next year. I'm finding myself really nervous because I, I think. I, for my own good, really need to understand who I am outside of the band. Like it's time. I'm like, I'm looking at 40. It's not that many years away. And I'm just like.

I should probably know who I am outside of this entity. And I'm really, I'm very excited for shows and I do think that it might possibly subvert. Some people's expectations of, you know, what they think they're going to get when they see me on a stage. What do you think people think they're going to get? I think that with Paramore, I feel and especially in the later.

Like more recently, there's been some kind of thing I've known this feeling I've noticed that I very much feel like a ringleader. And that's not always a positive thing. I feel that like. It's a huge responsibility to be a mouthpiece for a group of people. That's right. We're all very different individuals. And, like, I want to speak for myself. Yeah. That's what I'm noticing. I love that. And it's also, I have a version of a similar experience in that when I was in a sketch group coming up.

I read about this. And I was the only girl. Not that that matters, but it's something. I think it totally matters. It's something. So I really get it that you want to. then decide, okay, that's something I've practiced and done and I want to try something new. Yes. Yeah. I'm, I feel like I'm really.

Enjoying this part of my career because I actually feel like for the first time in my career, I'm talking to women. Growing up, there was just no women around. There wasn't a lot of women when you were on Warped Tour. No. You didn't have a real great gang backstage. There wasn't so many that you could chill with and talk about. Like there were some really amazing ladies in the production office. Of course. But then I was also like, you know, I mean, I was like.

pushing gear with the guys on a skateboard down a hill across to Meriwether Post Pavilion. I wasn't hanging out in the production office. I really think it is something to be the only girl. It is. And a gang. It is. And it's also like you want to feel, you know, we could we could talk about this part forever and you would be the person to be able to talk about it with. But it's like, how does your the gender that you identify as.

How do you sublimate it through your work? How do you like kind of push it aside? How do you play around with it? Like, I feel like you have really cool ways in which you kind of play around with the mask and femme side of you. Oh, thank you. But it's. But it, sometimes you're just, you need like the space to be able to do that basically. And the safety to be able to do that. The safety. That, that's the, that one hits me more. I think I. The era that we grew up in.

And I know I've already referenced Mean Girls one time, but you think about, like, that time. Technically, contractually, you have to reference it. Yeah, yeah, every episode. Yeah, okay. We've done two now, so you're good. Okay, cool. I owe Tina a lot. You're not going to get a phone call. I'm brilliant. I like that was a time in. culture that I do I think more conversations were starting to happen but to be whatever age I was 14 I think oh baby yeah I was a baby and I was in that

age range, you know, of all these people and, and like watching the, the, these social, like this, you know, this construct that happens. I, I feel that. Once I entered the band world and the music, the climate, you know, especially for like indie and more like punk subgenres. It didn't feel safe to be a young girl. Maybe if I was an older woman, I would have felt differently, but.

I really shirked any aspect of me that was remotely feminine. And I didn't know this, but it really hurt me. I did it to myself. No one asked me to do that. We all did it. A lot of it. Because you're scanning, right? You're always scanning for the dangers. And unfortunately, in the industries that we're both in, there's a lot of them. And I think it took me until probably. I remember writing very neutrally, like in terms of my point of view, like I never want to give away.

lyrically that you know this is a young girl's point of view yeah you know trying to be smart enough to make that happen but it was probably like our fourth album which I would have been in my early 20s by that point where I started to play around with femininity more and I wasn't so ashamed of it and you know if I ever felt sexy I didn't like push that feeling away.

And because of that experience, now I'm 36 and I'm still noticing places where there's a lot of rigidity around my femininity. And I talk to my friends about this a lot. I don't, I mean, it's just. kind of unfolding day by day. I, you know, you go through rough things in your life and I think each time I come around to an obstacle, I'm like, okay, how do I do this better than the last time?

I did. I went through something like this. And somehow femininity is always at the core of the issue. I so feel you. I feel like it's like a lot of deprogramming. A lot of like being. just what you said, a little bit curious and not so judgmental. And just if you're 10% more aware of anything you're doing, you're... You're hanging in there because it's, you know, you can't like judge yourself for what you didn't know. Yeah. When you were on tour.

Is there any women that come to mind that were kind of guiding lights or people that you met along the way that kind of felt like, oh, I'm going to notice them and I'm going to kind of pay attention to what they're doing and I'm going to learn from it? Yeah. The second year we were on Warped Tour, Joan Jett and the Black Hearts played on the main stage, like the whole summer, which is brutal.

Summer. It's a long tour. And I would catch them anytime I could. And we ended up in a photo shoot together for I think it was for Billboard. And I kissed her on the cheek. I'm very shy. I don't. If I like if we weren't doing this, I don't know when I would have ever met you. Like I don't because I'm so I just don't I never want to bother people. And I am quite shy when I'm not on stage. And I.

I don't know, we were standing next to each other and I just kissed her on the cheek and I remember being like, I love her. And I didn't know anything about her other than she was in the Runaways and I had a Runaways poster on my wall as a teenager. But I thought she was just, I liked her masculinity. Yeah. I liked that she wasn't.

embarrassed to have that side of her as a woman. And she was also very sexy. So that was probably the first woman that I really like performer that I was really around for like an extended period of time. In my young, in my early career. And then, you know, I just this year, I met Kathleen Hanna and I.

I told her, I was like, I just, I haven't had many of these conversations. And it's so validating to, it's so validating, by the way, to read books like your book and Kathleen's book and read about women.

I, you know, I have amazing, my mom and my granny are like these incredible women in my life that I've learned so much from. My mom and I are like really close in age and all that, but I. We have so much grace for each other, and I'm very thankful for those relationships, but I didn't have anything outside of my family to really soak up wisdom from other women.

So I'm enjoying that. Yeah, it's like the proximity of them. Yes. And you must have felt that on the heiress tour. Yeah. Like, you got to be around all these incredible women and an incredible woman at the helm, and you just got to feel what it feels like to be in that. Yeah.

matriarchal simulation totally it is a different it's a different feeling altogether i mean there was just there was a time too where we would go a whole year and i wouldn't see another girl on stage um And now that we have the power to make those choices, it's so nice to get to be intentional about that and to think about the conversations you might get to have backstage and what I might learn or what I might be able to.

offer another artist that, you know, that's maybe like the Linda Lindas. I love those girls. I love them. And I just think that they're, they're so smart and they're so aware, like politically like aware. and not afraid. I think that it's very healing for me to see young, like teenage people be so bold about what they believe in. And really confident in their playing and how they perform and their friendships. It's really healing to see that. Well, you probably, I mean.

I have a couple of questions about the Ares tour and they're practical questions. They're like, what is it like to perform early in the day? I love it. It sounds amazing. If I never. I've already told the team, like, if we get festival offers, please don't make me play after the sun starts to go down. I completely agree. Nothing good is happening out there when the sun goes down. First of all, you can be done by, what, 8.30? Yes, I want to have a normal dinner.

A normal dinner. Please. This is what Tina and I go on tour, and we do like 4 o'clock and 6 o'clock shows. What? Babe, you can do a 4 o'clock show. I mean, you're the boss, so you can. And guess what? People are going to show up, and you can say to them— I'm going to show up. You can say—

tonight, enjoy your dinner. And they're like, I'm in bed by seven 30. Oh my God. That is incredible. I mean, we did do that on the air. So what at the, like you had a long stretch when you were with them in a bunch of different cities. with taylor swift on the air store what did you do after the show went well when we were in the uk i loved this because you know bbc no not bbc

I can't remember what channel it is, but they play Gogglebox. Have you watched Gogglebox? Yes, I've heard of Gogglebox. Oh my God, Amy, this is my favorite show of all time. Explain to people what it is for people who don't know. So imagine Amy and I are like... We're watching television together and all these cameras are still here, which honestly sounds terrifying. But but like it's just families and friends.

watching tv like commenting on what they're seeing and some of it is like you know soap opera type shit and other times it's like boris johnson yeah and i love that i often see some clips of like heavy beautiful scenes where like a young

teen is coming out to his parents and then they'll show all the different reactions and you think like, oh, this very blue collar family is going to have a tough time with it and they never do. Oh my God. England is just full of angels. Well, according to Gogglebox. Yeah, according to Gottlebox. According to Gottlebox. It's very wholesome. Yeah. And I love to just.

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Okay, so you would, like, watch TV after. You would chill out. You would not go out. We went out some. We had a lot of days off, too. And we would, like, my favorite days were Portugal. We were in Portugal for like four days before the shows started. And we did one day on like this little boat. The guys and I all went out, our crew, everybody. I think it was like 40 of us, maybe 30 of us total.

We went out and we're not talking about like a yacht situation, but it was very cute. And we went out and we swam. Well, the guys swam and then we found out later it was like a really. Not a good idea to swim in that water. And you had the instinct to not go in? I did. Yeah. I didn't want to be cold. I'm not a cold person. You never do like a cold plunge or any of that? You love a cold plunge.

I know this about you. And look how you're radiant. Thank you. And it's not about the skin, although that's a nice byproduct. The skin is all I care about. I know. The insides can be rotting out. Let my skin glow, please. Okay. It's good for inflammation. Oh, shit.

I know. I don't want you to tell me that. And, you know, you don't have to do it. You never, ever have to do it. Maybe soon. But I think—and honestly, it's really helped with anxiety and depression. Really? Yes, because it— talk about somatic it flips on your like um fight or flight oh it flips on some kind of oh no I'm gonna die I'm so cold but how does that help because the high when you're still alive

Have you ever, like, thrown up on stage? I've never thrown up on stage. I actually don't think I've thrown up from a show. That's amazing. I blacked out on stage. Dang. ACL, like the last album cycle, but I didn't pass. I like blacked out. Pink Pantherist was on stage singing Misery Business with us. And I had this moment where I was like, I just went out for two seconds. And I came back.

It turns out I was sick. So I found that out later. But but other than that, I've only had a few instances where like there was one time Mexico, a festival in Mexico City. I almost shit my pants, threw up and. blacked out at the same time I was gonna ask I didn't want to be rude but I mean how after so many shows have you not how have I not shit my pants I really did I mean, I assume pretty much every singer I see, I assume that they've shit their fans.

Not on stage, but plenty of times off stage. I mean, there's nothing you can do about it. I think it's like when you're on your period and you go in the water, apparently it just sucks up. It just goes, mm-mm. I think that's what happens on stage with me. It's just like, we're not doing this. Yeah. Wait until after, bitch. Women are incredible. Women are so strong. Women most of the time don't shit their pants. Yeah. And that's incredible.

That's like a guy thing, actually. I'm sorry. 100% is true. I don't know any women today that have pooped their pants once. No one here in the studio today. Today, not once. We should just all try it together once. We can know. But it is. It is. It's super physical. And then the other I have so many like because I feel like there's a version where one must like.

disassociate and just kind of be in your world and saying and other times where you want to feed off of the eye contact from people and is that just you're just always adjusting with that or yeah i i don't know if i'm i don't know if i'm fully present to like that aware when I'm in it but I get such a rush I mean especially at a Paramore show I usually recognize a lot of the people in the front

So we'll have like a relationship then throughout that show where I'm like, I know you, I've seen you a million times and like you're with me. But then I'll spot other people and I can really feel, it's almost like I intuit. what the song means to them. I'm not thinking about what it means to me anymore. It's so healing. It's very liberating, actually, because I love to write about stuff that'll just...

Make you so depressed, you know, like I need to get that out. So to have an experience with other people that takes it away from me is really. I really need that, I think. What's a song or a lyric or a moment that has been given back to you by a fan, like by someone in the audience singing it back to you that's changed the meaning of what you wrote?

Oh, wow. Because that's a very cool thing you just brought up. I didn't even think about it. I mean, to me, my question was going to be, what does it feel like to pass around all these like feelings to people so that they can all, you know, they can all. have their feelings about it and become detectives about it. But...

I realize there must be a gift also in the way people sing the song back to you, tell you what they feel about the song, that it must change the meaning of the song. It really does. Does anything come to mind? Well, the first one that comes to mind is this song called Last Hope from... our fourth album. We had a self-titled record that came out when Zach left the band. He left the band with his brother who started the band with us when we were teenagers.

It was really, Taylor and I were writing and we were both really sad. And I just kind of also felt like, I mean, what does a band matter? You know, I really was feeling so existential about the whole thing. And I can't remember. It's the lyric in the bridge. It's like the salt in my wounds isn't burning. It doesn't burn quite as much as it used to. I can't remember exactly the words right now, but it...

I just remember writing it and being like, this is so sad. And it unfortunately is how I feel. And I've really struggled with my mental health and kind of like, you know. I've wanted to not be here plenty of times. And that song kind of expressed that in the moment for me, having that at a Paramore show, that moment and feeling like.

Everyone in the room has survived so many different things and we're all here. Half of us will never see each other again. It really does something to those types of songs where I wrote them in such.

isolation and now here I am having to like not only be witnessed but bear witness to all these other experiences that are that have coalesced and people are just physically joyously singing that back to you smiling and being like thank you for writing that thing like dude joy is really joy is a is a is a tough emotion for me

Because I don't trust it. I always think it's going to, the piano is going to fall from the sky is what I say. It's just going to hit me when I least expect it. And I think that's why. Paramore shows, at least for me, that they feel so joyous because I'm relying on a lot of other things. I'm not thinking so much about my own experience. When we can transcend our own experience, it's like, for me, joy becomes more tangible. It's like, oh.

I'm not controlling what's happening anyway. Yeah. And this thing is, is being offered up. We're all kind of creating this energy together and we just get to reach up into and pull it down into our. hearts. And it's like, it's very wholesome. It's, um, it is, it's, I mean, it's very, uh, Primal. Yeah. It's very primal. Singing with other people, like just the frequency of that in a room is powerful. Yeah. Can we talk about being short?

Can we please fucking talk about being short? So you're both 5'2", according to Wikipedia. Are you a natural 5'2"? Yeah, I am. In fact, one time I did the whole insurance thing. They come, they take your blood and all that stuff. And they were like, you're 5'3". never let it go it's on my driver's license 5.3 is on my driver's license too because they measured me at 5.3 which I'm not I'm 5.2 but I was like and they were like 5.3 and I was like okay

Thank you. I got super pumped. Oh, my God. I was so relieved, actually. What is the good thing about being 5'2 and what's a bummer? Well, so my friend Daniel that I made the record with is probably like 6'3. Isn't it funny that you don't know? Because anyone over a certain height, I'm like... Just a building. I don't like, I don't know. I'm just walking through New York every day of my life. But we were standing on like a porch of a house that was kind of like on a hill.

And then there were, there were chairs and I was like, you're way up there, man. Like you're like, we're already standing atop this little hill. And so I got on the chair and I stood next to I stood on the chair next to him where I was even with him. And I felt so vulnerable to the elements. I was like closer to the sun. This is not where I want to be. No, too windy up there. It's too windy. Yeah. I don't like to be cold.

Yeah. And I hate wind, if I'm being honest. Yeah. Get down under and get down back into your short little seat. I just, I just, I really felt scared for like a few minutes. So I tip over. I don't know how tall people don't constantly tip over. And it's like not our business what's happening up there. It's not our business what's up now. I don't want to know. It's like if something's important, shout it down. But we don't need to go up there. Yeah. I mean, really, though, I.

I do, though, when I'm shopping, I hate being short. It sucks. It's so embarrassing. It's so embarrassing. Every pair of pants, you look like a little kid. like swooshing around you know totally every nothing fits nothing is made for short shorties it's really not and now that i'm getting a little bit older i'm like learning about like If my torso is the right length and this part of my body, I'm just like, I don't want to know this shit. Do you have anything on your body that's long? My dick.

But it's also really wide, which is like, what do I do with this? Ladies love it. Roll it. Hold it and roll it. And then prepare for one more glaze.

Okay. Okay. I'm ready. Actually, I don't know if this is the last glaze, but prepare for another glaze. Okay. But you are an artist that other artists, male and female, feel like... You are a lot of people's favorite artists' favorite artists. Oh, my God. They love working with you. They have huge— tender feelings about being, um, in your orbit, they on stage feel very like, like they're kind of loving you in real time on stage and.

You've worked with a ton of people who love working with you and would... We'd be able to get 20 people to talk about how much they love you. Who are your people right now that when you get to see them, perform with them, be with them, they feel like they're part of a peer group? lift you up and support you or people that are up on that you're hoping to support and bring along for the next ride man well I got to perform with the Linda Linda's in London and I felt really proud of them I get to

I get to do more stuff with David Byrne this year, and I know that's going to feel like— It's weird. It's interesting because Linda Lindas are younger than me. David's older than me. Well, that's what I feel like being in your mid-30s.

feels like as you're really feeling a little in the middle in the middle yeah and um you know if you know if your 20s are figuring out what you want to do then your 30s are kind of figuring out what you don't want to do and so you're kind of letting go of things that aren't working for you anymore but that vacuum gets filled with

cool stuff like and you're looking ahead and back like it's I mean what do you think your 30s feel like I have felt like honestly enjoying you talking about it because I 30s are weird. Yes, they're weird. Especially the middle of my 30s. I still felt very young in my early 30s. I still felt very, what's the difference between? 28 and 32, I felt like it was all the same. Something happened at 35. I started seeing myself, like seeing pictures and being like, oh, that's different.

But I also still feel sprightly and have energy and almost like a renewed passion that makes me want to like live it all up. Yeah. It's just, I didn't expect 30s to be like this. Yeah. Well, I mean. I guess I want to know. What did you expect 30s to be like? Isn't it funny when we're young? I don't know. What feels old? Because I'm here to tell you I'm 54. I don't feel any. I don't feel. But when I was a young person, if someone was like, she's 50, it would be like, oh, my God.

That's the oldest number I can think of. But it's so funny here to tell you from like sending you a dispatch from 54. I don't feel that different. It really excites me. Yeah. It excites me because I see like because. Being 36, when you say 54, maybe this is the age where, like, that doesn't sound old to me. That doesn't scare me. I think it sounds better than 36 in a lot of ways. I think it sometimes is harder to be in the middle. Yeah, the middle. It's a little hard.

was hard hell is the hallway oh hell is a life is a highway but hell is the hallway we just wrote a whole song no one's ever in any of those words Okay, and then the last thing I'll say is that I...

I see in the music world what happens a lot in the more like actor comedy world, which is women who are very, very different are kind of asked to be a member of the same group. And they're all really different with different styles and different ways of approaching things. But you have an incredible, you're in an incredible time right now for just women in music. They're just dominating. Oh my God. All different styles. Exactly. Yeah, I'm really enjoying watching women.

on stages right now because of what you said it's it's so many different personalities i i am i love um Mannequin Pussy, I think. Yeah, they're amazing. They're amazing. And singer. Talk about a voice. Yeah. Yeah. And we just connected over like just over DMs. And Missy was talking about losing her voice. We were kind of like. Kiki and about that a little bit and talking about this initiative that.

She told me about this No Music for Genocide initiative. And it's just so nice, again, to talk to other women and music that, like... We don't have to be doing the same thing. We don't have to like the same music. We can be on completely different sides of the musical landscape, but I feel so much less alone by engaging in it more. I just, it's so exciting. Also like.

I was just telling my friends this morning, I normally listen to like, you know, I like bands and I like heavy music and I like weird, you know, I like all the stuff that's happening in Copenhagen right now. What's happening in Copenhagen? Oh, there's such a great music scene in Copenhagen. What? Yes, I'll send you a playlist. Oh my God, I would love it. Is it all, it's like heavy, heavy Copenhagen stuff? No, it's not heavy. It's just a vibe. It's a vibe. And I've always.

liked music from that from like scandinavian artists you know but also i just like was listening to um i put on this olivia dean song oh yeah man i need and i started and i was like oh i know it because i've seen the clips all over the internet and I started singing along to it and I started crying to it and I think it's because it's so it feels joyful and it feels very feminine it's not My mouth doesn't make those shapes very often. And my body like really responded to it. So.

I just, yeah, there's so many different types of music happening right now that I'm so inspired by. That's awesome. Yeah, it's fun. And what are you listening to, watching, reading? What do you do to laugh? What do you do when you want to get up?

You know, get on the elevator and get up out of the... Like, what makes you laugh? Wayne's World. It's my favorite movie of all time. Let's talk about how great Wayne's World is. Can we please talk about it? I mean, Dana Carvey was... instrumental for me when I was he was in you know like you always kind of fall in love with the SNL cast that you saw when you were like 13 14

And he, him and Jan Hooks, like that cast, Phil Hartman. And Mike Myers was an improviser who came out of the theater that I studied at. So Mike was a kind of an example of like. one of us can make it. Wow. He kind of came up through that system, that Chicago system and got an SNL. So those two were, and, but what do you like about Wayne's world?

Why does Wayne's World make you laugh? Well, so my parents were really young. And I think that's why I got to grow up on stuff like that from the early, early 90s or the late 80s. And I thought that's how we would dress when we became adults. I was like, this is how adults dress. We wear fishnets under denim, ripped up shorts. We wear flannels over Aerosmith t-shirts. And I literally dress like that. I mean, I just, I, that movie has, it's like.

the godfather to me like I quote that movie all the time what's your one of your favorite scenes in Wayne's world Oh, this is good. Well, it's probably the Dreamweaver scene. It's probably when they first see Cassandra. And that gorgeous woman played by Tia Carrera. Tia Carrera, my queen. Incredible. Chris Traeger's Rob Lowe is in Wayne's World. Rolo, as we like to call him. You know, I did not like Rob Lowe until much later in his career. Because he was bad in Wayne's World.

the villain in Wayne's world. Yes. I believe parks and rec was my, was the redemption tour. Okay. So we'll finish with Doug's two questions. Cause they were great questions. Okay. Yeah. So good. So Doug had two questions for you. And, um, And by the way, make sure you check out Wayne's World. If you haven't seen Wayne's World, what the fuck? Honestly. Do you have to bleep curse words? No. You don't? We don't have to bleep on this. Oh my God, fight the power. it's so incredible freedom um

Okay, he had two great questions. One was, you know how Batman has a symbol in the sky that calls Batman? Yeah. What would Hayley Williams' symbol be? And it can be anything. Yes. Do you know in Wayne's world when they're driving in the Gremlin? And it's the middle of Bohemian Rhapsody when the guitar, it like kind of breaks down. And the camera pans up and there's like a car on top of a pole. I think it's a car. It's like a sign for something.

It would be like that, but it would just be the gremlin. It would be Wayne's World Car. And it would have a glow behind it. Oh, yeah. You would see it in the sky and be like, gotta go. Gotta go. It's time. You know what I mean? Yeah. Got to get in there. Got to get in that world. It would be like that. And very faintly from a distance. Bohemian Rhapsody might even be playing. What's your favorite part of Bohemian Rhapsody? It's...

That's my favorite part. Of course. And then the next question, which is wild, is what is the last song? That you want to hear before you die. Okay. Oh, no. I know. And do you feel like you would know it? Staying alive. That was always my funeral song, but I suppose it would be kind of cool to go out to it as well. And you don't want to add an extra layer to it. That is supposedly the beat that you're supposed to do CPR to. Stop. That's when we learned CPR. It was like, ha, ha.

Ha, ha, stay it alive, stay it alive. And then breathe into their mouth. Whoa. So that might be what you want to hear. Doug, you got your answer. Well, um. I hope this isn't too embarrassing, but we're going to do a cool down with our straws. Oh, yeah. With our straws. Yeah. Damn. Doug has really taught you. He gave us a cool down. And now I only want to do it with.

Straws. Okay. Can you talk us through it? Yeah, we do a few different versions. And it honestly has been a moment since I've done it, which is hence why I was saying I need to start doing it at night. But I think the whole idea is normally you're going from here, building up.

kind of up your range now we're going to close we're going to shut it down okay so let's start like not too high but just little too low hailey williams thank you so much for being with us thank you that was lovely that felt really good it did and I love you, and I love your voice, and I love spending time with you. I love you so much. There was a lot of real fan things that just happened there. I'm going to really unpack on my way home. And I'll send you a playlist. Yes, please.

Because we need to know what's going on in Copenhagen. You're right. Because I'm embarrassed about how little I know what's going on over there. We need to get over there. And don't think that for the rest of the week, I'm not going to dine out on the fact that Hayley Williams told me there's a lot of music going on in Copenhagen. I'm going to say it at least 10 times to everyone. Tell everyone. Tell everyone you know. People I meet at the gas station.

It's hot. The block is hot in Copenhagen. You got to tell them. I'm going to drop that like it's nothing. I'm just going to say it so casually. I'm not even going to make eye contact. Hands in your pockets. Cigarette appears. Okay, friends for life. Yeah. Okay, bye. Bye, guys. We're going to stay here, but you're going to go. Thank you so much for coming, Haley. You are...

well, you're my new best friend, whether you know it or not. Um, and, um, we'll be friends forever. Um, it was so fun to see you. And, and, uh, I just want to say Haley talked about a lot of amazing musicians and. And people that she loves to work with. But for this Polar Plunge, I'm just reminding everybody about two things. The great Kathleen Hanna, who, you know, started Bikini Kill and La Tigra and is an incredible activist and musician.

instrumental for so many women's careers, such an inspiration I know for me and many other people. And the Linda Lindas, a band that Kathleen has supported as well as Haley forever. They are just this. really super fun, great musicians, great vibe. I got the chance to work with them in a movie I directed called Moxie, where they were playing at the dance.

They're just they're just so fun. So check out music from the Linda Lindas and always bow down to the great Kathleen Hannah. And thank you, Hayley Williams, always for all that you do. Can't wait to see what's next. OK, thanks. Bye.

You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullen, and Alaya Zanaris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles. This episode is brought to you by Amazon.

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