Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're eating ice cream for breakfast, doing our most intense rage burning workout, mobilizing to support the most vulnerable among us, and doing whatever the hell else we need to do to make
it through today's inauguration. It's Monday, January twentieth, and on today's show, we'll be talking to writer, author, podcast host, and my personal career fairy godmother Jamel Hill about the dumpster fire ahead, how a second Trump presidency could impact the women's sports landscape, and how to hold space when things get bleak.
That conversation with Jamal is coming up right after this joining us.
She's a staff writer for the Atlantic, co founder of Lodge Freeway Media, author of the memoir Uphill, host of the new iHeart podcasts, politics, and host and executive producer of the new sports magazine style show Above the Fold on True TV. I was present for her first date with her now husband. The pins we put in our imaginary voodoo dolls are intended for the same person. She's my career fairy godmother and one of my all time faves, and she's with us from Bora Bora.
It's Jamel Hill. What's up, Jamel?
Everything is good. I mean, obviously I'm in Bora, Bora, and I guess if you see the video of this, no, I have not been kidnapped and put in a beach sheck. So if everybody's wondered, like, what is the bamboo that is behind you? That is? That is why. So yeah, you're the celebrate a friend's birthday, but always always happy to take time for you.
I appreciate it. I like how you went to kidnapped. I was like, you look like in your cabana having a fruity drink. So I went positive on the visual for that one. You have been a mentor to me, an inspiration and example a friend. I'm so glad you're here today because we're recording this a few days ahead
of Monday, which we're bracing ourselves for. It's going to be a tough day for a lot of us, and I think we'll really benefit from hearing your wisdom and your insight, your sense of humor, your ability to balance all things in life as we steal ourselves for what's to come. Before we get to that, I do want to ask you about how you and your friends and your house and everything are doing in LA.
So you know, it is a very harrowing time, even though obviously right now I'm not in LA, but I've just been gone for a few days. And it's hard to describe to people the level of anxiety because even if you don't live in an area that has been directly impacted, it's hard not to imagine all these doomsday scenarios where you will be directly in that situation. You know, we live in an area. We're right on top of
Englewood and so we're very close to the airport. But the heroing part for us is that we live right by a state recreation area and also a huge oil field. And there was a fire that was put out as the other fires were ranging that was less than five miles from a house. It's probably three miles that would probably be our guests. Thankfully the fire department, God blessed them. They put this out. They got on it quick, a
transformer blue. So far as we know, it was an arson, but that could have been extremely bad given the conditions of the wind conditions and everything else. But everybody I know that lives in LA knows somebody who lost their home. Everyone, And so that's how close it is to you. I know people who've had to evacuate, I know people who've lost their homes. So it's just really it's really a
dark time. And I can say what doesn't help is that it actually it's made me more mindful and self aware, because certainly I have been guilty of chiming in on disasters that are happening in other parts of the country because I see people affected, I see people who are suffering or that kind of thing, and so you automatically want to rush jump in and say like, hey, this
is messed up, Hey whatever, whatever. And while certainly everybody's allowed their opinions, I'm not saying that, but the level of criticism and frankly you feel it is like the level of hatred being directed at LA is crazy. I need people to understand. And this is not to say that they are just di biding their homes being lost either. If you're a celebrity and lost their house, those are your things, those are your possessions. You're a human being,
so I feel for them as well. But because the narrative that only celebrities are losing their homes has been the dominant narrative in the media. It has allowed you see the disday that people have and there's like, who gives about these rich people that lost their house? Let me let me tell you the majority of people losing
their homes are not rich. They're not millionaires. There's beloved communities Pasadena, Altadena, especially Altadena, this is a historically black area where you have generations of black folks that have been there that this was their American dream because a
lot of other places in Los Angeles. I know LA has this sort of liberal narrative, but LA was just as racist as a lot of cities in America, you know, when it came to migration patterns, and there was a lot of places that would not rent or or allow black people to own homes. So this was an area that a lot of black folks settled and it became their American dream. And that place is destroyed. And so, you know, people need to understand that it's not just
rich people losing things. And you know, people have this whole idea of like Hollywood is as much love and hatred for so feeling the hatred from certain parts of the nation and certain people, and you know what I'm talking about has been very tough to, it's been hard because it just there's no empathy there for people, and I'm like, man, this is kind of pocked up.
Yeah, it's the pain of all the loss and the fear, combined with the hatred and the ridiculous idea that there would be some sort of regulation on how much support you would get based on whether you're agreeing with political ideas as opposed to humanity coming through, and that's where we send our help and our love, and also the
time it will take to rebuild. As someone who lived in LA for six years, and I have lots of friends who have been affected, including a few who lost their homes, one who lost the rental home they were in and the future home they were moving into, both of them and all of the things they had. It is a place that's full of all different kinds of people and it's just going to take such a long time and so many things are lost forever, and it's
really it's been really heartbreaking to watch. So I'm feeling for you and feeling for all the people I know out there, and it's part of what's been a very inauspicious start to twenty twenty five from the violence in New Orleans, to the fires in LA, to a different kind of weather pattern in DC, which I'll just call a shit storm. Is what we're seeing so far. We are dealing with a lot. I always try to spend things positive. I always try to find a way to
see the best in things. I'm trying not to presume that this could potentially be the highest point of an even deeper slide and we might just be facing these things over and over again all year long.
But it's hard to be positive right now.
And I feel like you always seem to balance your personal joy and your light inside with your coverage of really tough topics.
Do you have any tips or tricks for people on how you manage to do that?
The biggest thing I've clung to because all those emotions you just expressed, I felt the same way after the election. I was like everybody, that was my thought process, right. I am like, yo, man, I can't keep doing this to myself, right, And I think a lot of people who just were I think mostly we were invested in turning the page. It felt like, dog, we have an opportunity to turn this horrible page and get this man about our lives forever. Let's do that. Okay. You might
have your issues. You might be like, I don't like this. Bigger picture is let's get this dude up out the pay forever. We could argue about some shit later, all right, All up, we can argue about it later, all right. So that was sort of my main focus kind of going into it, in addition to obviously the respect that I have for the Vice president. Not perfect again, nobody, no politisic is gonna be perfect. I can take imperfections, but it's just a certain level of I don't know,
just integrity I just need in this job. So at any rate, you know, I felt that way, and I literally I wanted to check out and for a few weeks, but I was just like, you know what, it just it's gonna be what it's gonna be. I can't. I can't get this invested only to feel this way, you know, when it's all over. But then I remember something, and this is when I had to check myself and re
direct my energy and understand. History is such a great teacher, and we have to be mindful of the fact that there are people who have faced really much more awful circumstances than what we're looking at. Right now, it's bad, Like I'm not gonna pretend that it isn't. But then I think about all the people, all the women, all the people of color, all the black women who before I ever was a thought bubble, how they fought what they were up against, and they didn't even get to
fight from the position I'm in. I'm fighting this from the position of somebody who's a media personality, who's been able to write a book, who's been able to do all these great things. They weren't fighting from that position. They didn't have shit, and they were still fighting and invested every single time time, And so I felt like I would be letting them down if I checked out. I was like, I can't do that. Harry Tubman, did she check out?
No?
Check out?
Like she did not, And so I have to think about it in those terms. And I know that seems dramatic because obviously we're not still in slavery, But the whole point is that, like if Harriet found a way, if she can look at the North Star, what am I doing? Right? So I think all needs to remember that is that there were you know, women or you know, even people that you admire in history that really fought through some sludge, so we can preserve the fight today.
And we have to remember it's a consistent battle. An election is not lost in an election, it's not one. It's like every single step matters. And so that has been my north star since I'm on some herriots. That has been my north star throughout all of this is just remembering the sacrifices that people have made, and even the sacrifices of people that made in current times, not just in the past. I have friends who are organizers.
Organizers are the most positive people I have ever met in my life, and I love them dearly because they find a way to keep going all the time despite tremendous setbacks. As seeing their energy, that's what inspired me.
Organizers are the embodiment of this principle, this motto that I hold. That's invincible summer, which is in the darkest and coldest winters, I have within me an invincible summer. And I feel like those people somehow hang on to hope no matter what's around them. They still are like, no, we can do this, no matter how many times they get punched back.
I love what you just said.
It is so important to hang on to and remember, and I do not want to ruin it, but I do want to tell you we are living in such a stupid time that a Hollywood executive suggested that Julia Roberts should play Harriet Tubman in a biopic, and then when they said Harriet Tubman was black, the person said, it was so long ago, no one will know that. I just want you to know that we are dealing
in unprecedented times when it comes to freaking stupidity. So I love your Harriet Tubman example, and I also just want to remind us.
Like, what the fuck are we doing? Yeah?
Right, I mean, but I can't I can't excuse that because I have seen that same story. Yeah, but you know, and I'm not champing. I'm not saying she should have done it, but I say, wow, Julie Roberts, I love her man ranged until she got ranged. Man, It's like she might have voted off. I don't know, Like, no, if they can't mix that in a romantic comedy.
Type of way, yeah, Queen of the rom coms.
Runaway Bride would have taken on a totally different meeting. That's all I know.
That is so true.
That is so true, and Honestly, Hugh Grant would make a believable slave owner.
So throw him in there's something.
Run Away Bride but with slaves, and then see, I can make that joke, Sarah can't.
That's that's right. I mean, you have a production company. What are we waiting for.
I mean, I'm saying this this now that I know that we're doing that in Hollywood, and it's funny you should say that because I just saw that the President elect has now created because you know, the Party of Small Government loves to create more government, and so he's created a a Hollywood liaison. Oh no, oh yes, with
three favorites, John Boyd, Sylvester Stallone, and mel Gibson. They will be They will be the Hollywood envoy too, to bring back I guess, apparently to bring life back to Hollywood. So Donald Trump has appointed them to a made up office.
Yeah.
No, probably to prevent Marvel and Disney from putting black people in their movies.
That's probably the yes, so.
Fully expect that when they do. You know, the story of Laura Zillhurston or the story like there's gonna be some white women like yeah, it's just it's what it is.
Honestly, we'll be lucky if they do those stories at all, even with white women.
So like, y'all really don't have to worry about black people being in movies the next feur years. Like thankfully Black Panther three has already been green lit, that's happening. That might be the most Black people y'all see in any movie the next four years.
And then maybe I don't know, Stacy dash big comeback for her Now, I'm.
Somewhere happy right now, Like, yes, I knew it would come back. I knew it would. But you know, sir, it is hard to deny the fact that the level of critical thinking is at a low point in this country, and that's that's my design. But even even still, even still, I'm going to cling to the fact that despite then we are living in, we are living in the stupidest
time we could ever possibly imagine. I'm going to cling to the fight that the will of the people, the real will of the people, will be heard and throughout Again, history has shown this throughout even darker times. And granted they have ship like Twitter, they didn't have they didn't have.
That misinformation the same way.
Yeah, yeah, they didn't. They didn't have that, but I would. I will say that I think there's something in us that will allow for a fight to happen. And so if this is what the wake up call that sometimes that people need, they do need a wake up call sometimes to like, hey man, you can't just sit every you can't sit shit out like we have to pay attention all the time and know who's minding the store.
So I'm hopeful that that will, that need for something better will take over in this stupid moment.
Yeah, it does feel like a bit of a cruel joke that Trump's inauguration will happen on Martin Luther King Junior Day. What are your plans for Monday? Are you ignoring it? Are you hate watching it? Are you watching do to work commitments? What's what's Monday looking like?
So but in a way, though, Sarah, if you look at history, it's actually pretty on brand that this would happen on the observed day of Martin Luther King Junior's birthday, like it is the story of this nation. To be honest, is that you know, the hovering of white supremacy, the ability for it to regenerate and reinvent has always been a part of American history, and so we need in some respects, we do need the reminder. We need the reminder that, like, hey, everything we died he died for
we're still fighting for. Like we need that reminder to bring it in the focus. But as for my personal plans, honestly, I really hadn't. I have a lot of work to do Monday, I'll be doing that work, and I don't really I didn't have any plans whatever to watch, to commentate, to really be invested in it. I guess having been through this spend cycle before, you sort of know what to expect. I'm just glad I know the bit DC
anymore and have to witness this up close. But no, I mean, I don't think it's something that we need to It's gonna be triggering, but I don't think we need to.
Look.
I would say to people, give yourself permission to say I'm good, I'm good on that day, I'm taking that day off, or I'm just not gonna ignore it or pay attention to it. And sometimes, as you know, especially in our positions and because of who we are and because of the opinions that we have the fighters brought to us, we will necessarily even have to engage. But we don't have a thousand people sending us messages like Trump is your president and all this. I'm like, what
do y'all think? I just want to ask those people so much, like who do you think you're owning in this situation? Because it's not me?
And I mean, why are you here?
Like the one star reviews on podcast that just say Trump. I'm like, but you're spending your time finding out that I have a podcast, going to it, reading it, and just writing Trump like who won?
Here? I'm living in your brain, like just go enjoy the shit, Like.
Yeah, don't enjoy that's your mans Go hey, go celebrate him, Like I stop with you.
I agree with you that I was wrapped with attention the entire last four years, feeling like I needed to understand and know every single detail, out of fear, out of curiosity, out of hoping that we would come to our senses at various points throughout And now that it has happened again with intention and the knowledge of what happened last time, I just don't need to know every single thing. I need to stay alert, I need to
stay informed. I don't need to watch this shit I will not miss Carrie Underwood.
My favorite meme from that.
Has been the meme that was basically like, so to summarize, if he cheats Carrie underwe it will take a baseball back to his car. But if he cheats and rapes, then she will sing at his inauguration. So yeah, that about sums it up. So we won't be missing much on Monday, but we will have to pay attention over the next four years because we're all wondering and worrying
about what another Trump administration will do to everything. But for the sake of this discussion investment and support for women's sports, there are minor things like extending White House invites to winning women's teams, to major things like Trump wanting to dismantle the Department of Education, which enforces Title nine. What are your concerns about the next four years when it comes to stunting this incredible growth that we've seen over the last couple of years for women's sports.
My biggest concern in general and is that there's no guardrails because everything all his worst instincts. There's nobody to say, you know what you probably shouldn't right. There's there was at least one person in the room to do that before because they he had people in there who'd actually had experience in government. But see now it's different. They're people who sole purpose is to make sure his worst
fantasies come true. And so as it relates to women's sports, I don't think a lot of people understood that the Department of Education is an enforcement office. Okay, and a lot of the issues because I see it all the time on social media, people are like cheering it on, destroy the Department of Education because those people don't realize the states already run your education. Okay, they already do, so this whole idea of giving it back to the states,
like the state born of education. They're in charge of your curriculum, They're in charge of all those issues that you have. And as someone who's a public school kid, I am heartbroken about this because the assault on public education is real and this will have a very real It already has had a real impact in sports the way they tried to dismantle public education. Because notice now when you look at where the top high school prospects
are coming from, Notice the schools they're coming from. It's like they're not coming from a lot of the public schools anymore. They're coming from academies, they're coming from private schools. And that is always the plan is to take the best and the talented, weed them out, put them in specialized situations, and leave behind everybody else.
You don't want.
That is the entire idea. Now when it comes to women's sports, obviously we know this there is that the number one focus of this administration is to bans, to ban trans athletes. This number one, like, no, let me be more specific, to ban trans women because they ain't saying shit about transmen ever, right, like never as part of the conversation. Right, So it's all about trans women.
And so all of these people who hate women's sports, because frankly, that's who's driving a lot of this, they're going to use that to change the language and saying they're protecting women's sports because I guarantee you what, it won't be a single piece of legislation about supporting and infesting in women's sports that ever crosses across this because it's about targeting one single group, one single group, demonizing them.
Even though there's what I think the NCAA president Charlie Baker said, there's trans women who are competing in sports. In college sports, there's five hundred thousand athletes. College athletes, there's ten all right, And that doesn't mean just because the low numbers that they deserve to be dehumanized. That's not what they're saying. But it's saying is that they've literally brought a missile to a fight that nobody like,
why what are we doing? So my concern is that my concern, especially with Title nine, is enforcement of sexual assault. That is a huge concern. We got a preview of this with Betsy DeVos when she was Secretary of Education. There was actually she revamped all of the Obama era
protections that afforded accusers certain rights, certain privacies. She changed all that shit and in fact made it so that those who were accused of sexual assault could interview their accuser in person, right, and so all that's coming back. So for women who are on college campuses right now, where we know there's rampant issues with rape and sexual assault, all of those protections will be gone, a lot of them. I think they have focused on making things. They call
it making things more balanced. What they mean is tilting things in favor of those who are accused of sexual assault and rape. So I expect all of these things to happen under this administration because there's really nothing to stop them. I think they're going to take all the teeth out of Title nine. As it is, so many athletic departments are not in compliance. It's like over eighty percent are not in compliance with Title nine. Title nine as it was. If anything, what they needed was actually
more compliance on enforcement. Yeah, they need a more enforcement and they don't have it because they've never actually taken away any anything from an athletic department because they were out of out of concert with Title nine. They've never done it. So it's like, you know, it's nice.
Didn't have a lot of teeth to begin with, and now so we'll probably have lesson.
For those who don't know, Title nine is an education law.
It is preventing you from you know, losing access or opportunity as a result of a variety of things, which can include sexual assault or you know, not having access to sport, all this other stuff. It often gets talked about in sports context, but it's really about the protection of education for gender.
We got to take a quick break. When we come back.
I want to talk about the rollback of DEI initiatives. I want to talk about your new projects, a bunch of stuff. We're going to come back with Jamel Hill after the short break. We're back with Jamal Hill. I want to talk about this rapid unraveling of DEI initiatives and promises from sports leagues and sponsors and companies and universities, mainly in the sports space. It felt like we were
making strides during America's twenty twenty racial reckoning. What's your reaction to this very quick reversal of policy and attention.
Oh, I'm not surprised at all. And I said in the twenty twenty when all the black squares is growing up, I was like, you know, it's really easy to do it when it's popular, when everybody else is like, yeah, we need to do this, we need to do this. How I judge you is what you do when it's unpopular.
It's what you do when you have to fight. Anytime that you are in the business of fighting for people who are in marginalized communities, be it women of color, be it black people, be it those in the queer community. Anytime you're in that fight, the fight doesn't start until somebody hates it, until it's not popular. And so all these companies, I think they're a joke because like that, let me know that it was never real, Like you
only did it because the shit looked good. You need to do it because you actually believed in it, because if you believed in it, you be like Costco, which is sticking to their DEI initiative. Right. Shout out to Costco, please don't love a goud bring it back. Those bisc off ice cream sandwiches. I need to get some because they're never they're never in stock Costco. Damn it.
Can I tell you something then? Can we still be friends? I've never been to Costco.
I mean I get to go, like I need to go. Do you okay? At the very you need to go for the for the pizza which is bomb and which are amazing.
Well vegetarian who mostly eats vegetables, which is why I don't go to Costco, cause vegetables in bulk because then.
They go back.
You can't.
But I've heard, you know, I could get some toilet paper, you know.
But I was gonna say, if you if you think about you know, COVID and the doomsday scenarios right, Like if you want to make sure you have toilet paper for an entire year, there you go, right, Or you have life salt wipes for six months.
I'm going to find a way to make my virgin voyage.
You have to go to castuff. It is, it's part of it. And it oh, especially if you're somebody who entertains at your house. You could get bulk liquor bulk liqu there very important.
Now we're talking about language, see.
What I'm saying. So you know, when you look at the history again, history our greatest teacher. When you look at what happened within the Nazi regime, so many people ask like why did so many people go along with it? How did they not fight? It's because it was death by a thousand paper cuts. That's why it's little things. A lot of people the knee before they were asked to ben the knee. And that's exactly what's happening.
Now.
You see people going to meet with Trump sadding they want to make them happy. You see all this capitulation he's never even asked for, right, and you're doing it in fear of trying to protect your own pocket and what you're gonna do is wind up. It's gonna wind up having a historically bad effect. History will not look kindly on this moment. But people don't care about it in the moment. They just care about what's in front
of them. So anyway, what I say to that is a lot of people that started to use d I much like woke as they're you know, three simple words that they can understand is the DEI was never about that. It was about giving people who were never in the room or never considered, an opportunity to be considered. That didn't mean they were less stand that didn't mean that they were not qualified. That's all it was ever about.
And to see that narrative hijacked and also by the way, to be for it to be hijacked at a moment where you're gonna have a cabinet that's gonna be confirmed, that could be one of the most idiotic we've ever seen. And so let me get this straight. Yeah, you know, uh Lenna McMahon who has like literally no experience of education at all, that's.
Not they But like, OK, like we need a word for other than just like nepotism or white privilege or I don't know, like country club conversations. We need a word for like the equivalent that they try to weaponize DEI, but for like just dumb shit people getting jobs that they don't deserve because of who they know. Correct, we need like it's the same kind of catchphrase that's easy to throw around because we should be using it at every single person that he's trying to appoint right now.
None of them are quality as you literally could. I'm just like, nobody's qualified to do any of these jobs. But all right, went in doubt, blame the black people, I got it right, So so yeah, no, it makes me very disappointed in a lot of companies who frankly have the authority and the positioning to do better and they're not.
And the power and the power and the research that says that companies that have more diverse boards tend to be more effective, more profitable, that having people with different lived experiences and perspectives and everything benefits your companies. It's just so frustrating that even when you have the numbers, you still push back.
You still do what you do, and so like, I so it it. Unfortunately, I've just lived through too many of these moments, and so that's why the next time, because another moment will come for sure, and it's gonna happen within these four years where all of that is going to suddenly be under examination again and something's gonna happen, and it's going to trigger people being like, oh, we need to care about these marginalized groups that we should
on on the way in. It's gonna happen again, and to the same point, I'm gonna I'm gonna bring it up again and say if this is just flee to the moment, you could save that shit, honestly, keep it like I've just ye next time, and unfortunately, there will be a next time that there's a George Floorda, some calamity, some catastrophe that happens. Keep that shit. I don't want to hear anything about your diverse initiatives, none of that.
Keep yeah, but congrats to the author of white fragility, who will get another huge bump whenever that.
Happens from all those things.
I want to just say that this sounds very hopeless. The hope will kill you, but it's also necessary. You can't just lay down and say, Okay, it's going to keep happening.
We're not going to make progress.
The progress does happen, and it's baby steps that then the next time you pick it back up, we've started from a better place. But it is hard, and it's hard to have the same shit come back for people of color, for women, for all these marginalized groups where it feels like you make progress and in the end, that same deeply held racism is at the root or misogyny is at the root of the most powerful people in spaces.
It's incredibly frustrating.
Let's pivot briefly because I want to talk about your new projects really quick. You've got this new show for TNT sports Evening lineup.
How and where can people watch it?
And what are you hoping to add to the space with this above the fold show.
Well, the whole point of it was to kind of have a bit of a return to the things that we love about sports, right because sometimes in our jobs they get so weighed down by so many things that we forget about what is it that what is that love that we have for in the beginning, Like, what
is it that draws us to it? And it's like incredible stories about perseverance, about grid, about determination, and so you know a lot of the longer form pieces that we've done have been about those people who are doing that, who have used sports as a way to better their lives, use sports as a way to get out of some darkness, and frankly, you know, like we did we've done fans spotlights about fans who are like super fans of teams and like how they live their lives, and it's been
to me. I just wanted it to be something just a little bit more encouraging in the sports space. And then also to have you know, a word that is greatly lost in our stupid time, which is nuance to have conversations about sports that aren't always about who is the villain, who's the hero, but maybe it's a little bit of both. Maybe it's something that's in between. Uh, And to have you know, we did a whole episode
dedicated to women's sports, which was great. That's something like I never could have imagined doing, you know, when I first starded sort of covering and being interested in women's sports.
And also we wanted to have different voices like of course, like we know, you know, we know about the Sara space, but who's the next Sara Spain that we may not know about uh that deserves a platform yet you're still jump no, sh Sara Spain is still out there, but there are others who aspire to become a Sarah Spain and having a space you know for them. It reminded me very much as you know all too well of
when we had His and Hers. There always had to be a hers, right, and so in this space, I wanted to create something similar, but just for a multitude of different voices that maybe nationally didn't have the same profile that I have or you have the people who kind of deserve that kind of push and end bump and so so yeah, that was that was the kind of the genesis behind, you know, above the fold and so and then just for me personally, just as someone
who has been in doing broadcasting you know now for a while, just to sort of get back out there, I just kind of do it regularly because I've sort of in and out and really been very precious about how I want to spend my broadcasting time. So it was a way for me to get back in it in the thick of it. And I mean the people that Spring, Galt and Seed have been amazing and so yeah, like it's been great I love.
That the mentorship angle is there for that show as well, because you mentioned that some people might not understand when you had His and Hers because there was a hers when you were out. That meant that another woman was coming and taking that place at a time when it was rare for women to get these opportunities to be opinionists and to be on shows like that. So folks like me and Kate Fagan and others got that opportunity
with intention from you. And that's why I call you my career fairy godmother, because you spotted me from not getting any TV time and said you should be on TV. Gave me that opportunity and it completely changed my career, and I love that you're doing that again in a new place. That's such a part of who you are in your in your career, and everybody should take a lesson from that.
No one is coming to steal your shit. Lift them up.
There's enough room for all of us and bring them with you. Okay, let's talk about spolitics. This is the weekly podcast that you launched in October. I love the first episode. Our good friend Dan Levettard or former colleague at ESPN. You both talked about not being able to stick to sports and not wanting to. And now you have a whole show literally called spolitics where they are indistinguishable from each other.
Tell me about the show.
So it's what the name suggested, is sports and politics, the two things they say should never makes, but always makes. And I just wanted a space in and a lane for that to do exactly that. You know what it is. So you can't download this podcast and say why are you talking about politics? I literally told you in they
not what? Okay? So you you chose this violence, not me, right so so, but I also realized too in doing it that it's a great lane to explain things like the current episode that's out now, it's about how how the NCDUBLEA became so powerful and one of the big court cases that the NCAA has to resolve as they must do this, they have this two billion dollar settlement that they have to adhere to that the final arbitration
is in April. That essentially will bring a level of collective bargaining to college sports for the first time in history because every team is essentially going to be they have a salary cap, right, They're going to have twenty million dollars or whatever that they can spend and that they have to decide how they're going to divvy up among their sports teams. But right now athletes are fighting
for the right to be classified as employees. What people don't know, and this is what is in this current episode as politics, is that the argument that the NCAA is using to avoid athletes being considered employees is the slavery exception. And no, I did not make that up. Yes, they are using the thirteenth Amendment, which banned slavery, but there's an exception in that that if you have a job that is considered too critical, you could be enslaved.
Yes, this is two on the nose for the history of the NCAA not paying all predominantly black athletes that are driving money for everyone but themselves.
Like it's too on the nose, It is true.
It is why I got to listen to that episode.
Now it's we have the lead co council who is representing the athletes in this case, Paul McDonell, and he explains how they're using the slavery exception to be able to do it. So, you know, just for people who don't know, and I highly recommend. There's a documentary abd Duverna did it called The Thirteen, which is amazing, and it's about the thirteenth Amendment. Yes, about how they bann slavery, but not really. And so for people who don't know
this Victoria's secrets, I believe it's Macy's. A number of businesses they use prisoners to package your items, and they are able to pay them like a dollar an hour, sometimes less than that to do this because it's considered critical to you.
Know, sort of manufacturer.
They're able to get away with it because of the slavery exception.
And this is the firefighters in La.
This is the This is firefighters in LA that are making roughly two dollars an hour to go in choose these horrific, terrifying spaces to fight these fires on behalf of free people for less than what they should make.
It comes from they would like to use college athletes in the same manner saying, hey, we don't have to have any they don't have to have any employed protection because what they do is considered so vital to our business that we can't possibly pay them like employees. Congratulations.
So anyway, what a country we're in Wow.
Oh and by the way, I should I should have mentioned this too, real quid Sarah with the firefighters. So this year on the ballot in California, there was something to ban slavery, right, like ban that type of slavery in California, and it failed and it failed. So there's that pro slavery.
Well, this episode was supposed to make me feel better. It okay, we've kept you too long. I do have one last question for you.
I don't think the answer will be positive, but let's just get it out there anyway, because I do want to ask you this. I am noticing more and more in both political media and sports media there's an approach
from the right that isn't met by the left. It's this toxicity and anger, its attacks from the likes of folks like OutKick and Barstool and Jason Whitlock, abandoning all journalistic principles, a willingness to really give personal shots, share false information to inflame viewers and listeners, embrace misogyny and racism and homophobia. Nothing is off the table when it comes to getting people to quote unquote your side. I
do not want to embrace any of those things. In pursuit of more influence or to get the upper hand. But I also recognize that there's a tremendous power, particularly in the tribalism of those spaces. They're creating communities, They're giving people identities as part of their audience of supporters. They're like almost indoctrinating them. Now Here, I'm trying to create this community, a good game that's around positivity and support, an inclusion and you know, criticism when it's fair, but
mostly the joy of sports and coming together. It is harder to that because we know that negativity and anger spur more engagement. So does our desire to maintain integrity and tolerance make us fully unprepared for this current information and attention war. Do we have to change our habits even if we don't want to?
No, I don't think so. And then some of it, too, is personal. It's all about what can you live with? And there's just certain things I can't listen. It's days, especially when I see how how much money some of these people are making, when I'm like, why God did you bless me with integrity? Why can you no shit of it?
Know what I'm saying.
I was like, why can't I have a little less respect for myself?
Huh, why can't I do this?
I've often thought about this, like, man, I wish I just had less self respect. But I have got to believe that people who do things with integrity, even if you're not always perfect, that's not what that means. That people who believe in moving in our business a certain way will be rewarded. I have to believe in this because unfortunately, we do see people all the time across our business who are rewarded for being the shittiest human
beings they possibly can be. But I've got to believe that that is not that having integrity, having respect, being intentional about inclusion and the type of community that you're trying to build, while it is in some ways less financially rewarding or you know, less attention rewarding, I've got to believe that at the end of the day that you will get your pot of gold, and that pot of goal will be even things that matter to you.
It doesn't necessarily have to be money, it doesn't have to be fame, and doesn't have to be those things. But at the end of the day, you're leaving a mark and leaving another blueprint for somebody else who wants to come along and do the same thing, and they know through you it's possible. You got to leave people a blueprint to know what's possible. If you don't, they
we're all kind of fucked right. Like, the only reason I'm doing what I do is because other people have shown me it's possible, and they didn't show me that. God be screwed. So there's sort of the silver lining that we have to cling to that it's not about us. It's about us trying to make things better in our
profession than when we first got here. And I like to think that they are you didn't exist when you got here, but now you do exist, and now someone else that is you or better than you can exist after that. And so you've got to be in it for that. Like I'm not in it for me. I'm in it for all the people coming behind me, because otherwise what am I doing this for. I had a conversation with Jane Kennedy at the Essence Black Woman in Hollywood Brunch, and Jane Kennedy is a pioneer in our business.
She was like the first black woman basically to get a national platform being on NFL today, her broadcasting career got talk about misinformation, got completely ruined, and I need people to buy her memoir, which is actually coming out this month. I do a blurb for it because it's really crazy how her broadcast career got ruined at any rate. I say all that to say is that I would be making Jane Kennedy's fight not worth it if I quit, if I didn't do the things and do the things
the way I do them now. And so you never want the people that came ahead of you to think that what they did had no purpose, and you don't want the people to be mind you to not have a blueprint to do what you do. So that's why you're doing this there.
Yeah, And I have to say it sounds pollyannish, but like the thing that's coming to me that you mentioned is already here, because every day I'm very joyful and happy in the work I do. And I can't imagine what it feels like to be someone who traffics in other people's sadness, in mocking people, in attacking people, and trying to send your trolls out to attack people like the everyday just like mindset of those people must be tragic.
It's constantly adversarial.
So I think the joy also comes in the feeling of what you're doing, being good every single day, even if there is no real, true pot of gold at the end. And I think that's kind of a microcosm for what we have to do over the next four years. Again, I keep saying it, but just make our little corner of the world, the people that we influence, the people that we know, the people that we interact with, happier
and stronger and better. While the people above in the biggest and highest places might not be doing what we want, we can at least try to make as much change as possible in the smaller spaces.
That's really all we can do.
Jamel, I just took forty eight minutes of your time in Bora Bora. You are truly a queen and I love you so much and thank you so much for coming on.
No, I appreciate being on and having this conversation.
This is good for me.
It's good for me to understand and to constantly be mindful of, like why I'm in this business and why I do what I do. And I want to bring that same joy that you talked about I will now tell my kidnapper that I am free to be held hostage in this cabana and uh my ties are coming. Yes, that's right, my kidnappers. What can I say? I'm gonna have Stockholm syndrome after this. It's right.
I caught a glimpse on me. Looks hot. What's up one?
Yeah? I won't tell him? You Sam, what's up? All right? Sick? Thank you?
Thanks again to Jamal for taking the time. We got to take another quick break stick around slices.
Welcome back.
I just want to say one more big thank you to Jamel for taking the time to talk to us, especially all the way from Bora, Bora on vacation. I hope we can all cling to the hope that you provided and the very important reminder that every little bit we.
Do moves us forward.
I remember President Obama when asked how painful it was to watch Donald Trump roll back policies and initiatives that he'd worked painstakingly on, he said, the thing to remember is that progress moves us forward. So even when others try to send us backward, they're still starting from a place far ahead of where we were when the work began.
So yes, we'll have some cleaning up to do and fighting to do and progress to restore, but our work in our little corners and neighborhoods and communities can help make sure that we're starting further ahead, pushing further ahead, and making efforts to dismantle progress tougher every time someone tries. We love that you're listening, but we want to get you in the game every day too, So here's our
good game play of the day. Spend a little more time with Jamel, whether that's diving into her fantastic memoir, Uphill, tuning into Above the Fold, or listening to a episodes of Spolitics. We'll link to all three of those in the show notes. And we always love to hear from you. To hit us up on email, Good Game at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two o four fifty seventy. We love to hear
your voices. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good game, Jamel, Good Game, Bora, Bora you corporations that just sign on when it's good for business. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iheartwomen's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network. Our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones.
Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and Lindsay Cradowell.
Production assistant from Lucy Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain