Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're considering dyeing our hair bright pink to match the stud buds.
Can we pull it off?
It's Thursday, July twelfth, and on today's show, we'll be chatting with Annie Costable, now a front office sports, about our new gig, the biggest surprises so far this WNBA season, and the historic tea that fuels today's rivalries. Plus a reminder that your fandom comes with a side of civic duty. Is TBA a worthwhile cause? And an accidental irish Goodbye? It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices. Here's what you need to know today. Let's start with hockey.
The PWHL expansion Draft was Monday night, and wow, let's just say Vancouver and Seattle should both be in contention
for the Walter Cup in their inaugural seasons. Both teams entered Monday night's draft having already signed five players during the initial signing window, but they're now up to twelve apiece following a seven round snake draft, and Couver solidified its reputation as a defensive giant by selecting Ottawa defender Ashton Bell with the first pick of the night, while Seattle added a slew of offensive weapons, with selections including
Boston's Hannahbilka, New York's Jesse Aldridge, and Toronto's Julia Gosling. We'll link to the full draft results in the show Notes to the WNBA. Former Chicago skyguard Ali Quigley has officially announced her retirement from basketball, three years after she played her last game. In an essay published and The Player's Tribune on Tuesday, Quigley wrote that she didn't mean to irish goodbye the WNBA, but after one off season turned into two, and two seasons off turned into three.
She realized she was done.
Quigley and her wife, Courtney Van der Slute, also welcomed their first child, Jana Christine, earlier this year. Quigley played fourteen seasons in the WNBA, spending nearly her entire career with her hometown team, the Chicago Sky.
She retires as a.
Three time All Star and four time three point shootout champion, a record for both the WNBA and NBA for shootout wins. Congrats to Ali, But between this and Courtney's ACL injury, I guess I got to put the Vander quig shirt I brought back out for this season back in my closet.
More WNBA.
The Dallas Wings will be without Ty Harris for the rest of the season after the guard underwent successful knee surgery on Tuesday. Harris played five games to start the season, averaging four point six points, but had been out since late May with a knee injury. In a statement, the Wings said Harris is expected to make a full recovery.
More hoops.
Letitia me Here is back with the Golden State Valkyries. The former South Carolina standout played the last two seasons with the Atlanta Dream and then attended training camp with Golden State before getting waived ahead of the start of the season. But on Sunday, the Valkyrie announced that the team had re signed to me Here after waving kaya Linskins and That's not All.
On Tuesday, with Julie van.
Leu heading off to compete in the Summer's EuroBasket Tournament, the Valks announce that the team has also signed Aerial Powers. More WNBA All Star voting gets underway today at two pm Eastern and runs through Saturday, June twenty eighth. Over the next couple weeks, fans will be able to vote for which players they think should be starters in this year's All Star festivities, which will be held in Indianapolis's
Gainbridge Field House on July nineteenth. Fans account for fifty percent of the vote, while current players and media account for twenty five percent each. During the voting window, fans may submit one ballot each day via WNBA dot com and the WNBA app. We'll link to the voting page in our show notes, so make sure to get those ballots in. To swimming, Canadian superstar and three time Olympic gold medalist Summer McIntosh set two world records this week
at Canadian national team trials. First, on Saturday, the eighteen year old broke the world record in the four hundred meter freestyle, taking more than a second off of the previous mark set by Ariana Titmas of Australia in twenty twenty three.
Then, on Monday night.
McIntosh broke the world record in the two hundred meter individual medley, which was previously set by Hungary Katinka Jozu in twenty fifteen. Ann McIntosh is not done yet. We're recording this ahead of Wednesday night's four hundred meter im final where she could be on world record watch again. This all sets up an exciting showdown ahead of next month's World Championships in Singapore, where McIntosh is expected to go head to head against US DR Katie.
Ldeki in the four hundred meter free.
McIntosh also has the chance at that competition to become the only swimmer other than Michael Phelps, to win five individual gold medals at a single World Championship competition.
To softball and.
A little bit of ratings news, ESPN announced that this year's women's College World Series was the most watched in history, averaging one point two million viewers per game, up twenty four percent year over year, and the finals set its own viewership record, with the best of three series between Texas and Texas Tech averaging two point two million viewers.
We love to see it. Finally, a reminder that albeit tonight's Aurora FC game, when our side takes on the Chicago City Dutch Lines at TCO Stadium in Egan, Minnesota, if you're around, come say hi and get a good game sticker. All right, slices, it's time for another edition of Give Me a Minute. Although I did like the suggestion that we call this the squeeze.
So we're so calling this a TBA name.
Let's bring in producer Alex Hi Alex Hello, and producer me Shai me Zip.
You guys like the squeeze, I do, because the juice is worth the squeeze.
You know, the juice is worth the squeeze. All right, Well, we may be back next time with the new name. For this time, we'll call it give me a minute, but I think we're gonna need about five for this one.
Okay.
So today I wanted to talk about a mistake I made. I made the mistake of using social media to talk about a tough topic, and it's something that I've really
stopped doing in recent years. I used to spend a lot of time on Twitter and Facebook and other places engaging with folks, trying to talk through tough ideas, trying to discourage problematic thinking, or shout down stereotypes and bullshit holding women back in the sports world, or try to discourage the spread of wrongheaded, moronic ideas about serious issues that I was covering in sports, like domestic violence and
sexual assault. It felt worth it at the time, but as Twitter got more and more full of bots and engagement started to be paid for.
I stopped using it for.
That entirely, but Tuesday night on Blue Sky, I dipped a toe in. I wanted to offer up a thought on the folks that I saw attacking Simone Biles for what they considered walking back her stance supporting trans athletes.
Let me catch you up on this.
So noted trans phobe and terrible person, Riley Gains responded to a tweet celebrating a high school softball team state championship win, and she wrote comments off lol to be expected when your star player is a boy. Biles responded, You're truly sick all of this campaigning because you lost
a race, straight up sore loser. You should be uplifting the trans community and perhaps finding way to make sports inclusive, or creating a new avenue where trans feels safe in sports, maybe a transgender category in all sports, but instead you bully them. One thing's for sure is no one in sports is safe with you around now.
Predictably, hordes of.
Awful people started attacking Biles, including Riley Gains herself, weaponizing Biles victimization by doctor Larry Nassar. So yesterday, in light of all of that, Biles posted this I wanted to follow up for my last tweets. I've always believed competitive equity and inclusivity are both essential in sport. The current system doesn't adequately balance these important principles, which often leads to frustration and heated exchanges, and it didn't help for me to get personal with Riley, which.
I apologize for.
These are sensitive, complicated issues that I truly don't have all the answers or solutions to, but I believe it starts with empathy and respect. I was not advocating for policies that compromise fairness in women's sports. My objection is to be singling out children for public scrutiny in ways that feel personal and harmful. Individual athletes, especially kids, should never be the focus of criticism of a flawed system
they have no control over. I believe sports organizations have a responsibility to come up with rules supporting inclusion while maintaining fair competition. We all want a future for sport that is fair, inclusive, and respectful. Xoxo, Simone. Now, I saw a lot of folks alleging that Biles was a weak ally, that she backtracked on her support, and that she apologized to Riley Gaines, who isn't deserving of an apology.
I disagreed, so I posted to Blue Sky Simone apologizing for taking a personal shot at Riley g while reiterating her belief in prioritizing inclusive while also seeking fairness. Isn't backtracking or being a bad ally. Folks are still allowed to care about their own behavior even if others are trash, and there is nuance to the convo, which is what I want to talk about with y'all today, Alex and meish, So let's start the clock.
Now.
I'm of the opinion that it wasn't necessary for Biles to follow up, but I also understand that if you behave in a way that you normally wouldn't or a way that you don't approve of, when others do it, you might feel compelled to apologize for that. I made a rule for myself long ago to not go tit for tat with people who harassed or attacked me online. Adding more hate to the space via personal attacks just didn't really seem like a great solution.
To the problem.
Plus, correct messages that I believe in are weakened by ad homin and bullshit. They stand alone without that stuff, and in my life, I don't ever engage with people that way. So why get into shouting matches and hurl insults just because I'm online.
That's not who I am.
So knowing that about myself, I understand perhaps why Simone chose to post that and to follow up with her thoughts on how the topic is nuanced and worth discussing. Some of the responses I got to posting that about Biles assumed I was muddying the water on inclusion or using nuance as a way to obfuscate for problematic ideas about trans inclusion. But I've made clear on this show and everywhere else how I feel about trans inclusion in sport.
Being afraid to engage in conversation about it and refusing to acknowledge that there is nuance isn't going to help the cause. In my opinion, there's nuance. There's different policy at different levels. There's bullshit mandatory DNA testing that also harms CIS, women with DSD or naturally high levels of testosterone that we should talk about. There's bullshit executive orders that are trying to ban participation at every single level,
regardless of policy. So there's a lot to discuss, and I think if your main goal is just to win an online war with Riley Gains, and you think you're seeding ground by acknowledging nuance you've already lost, that's not the goal. The goal is to convince more people to embrace inclusion while feeling good about fairness and policy across different levels. So if you're attacking folks for offering up that there's nuance at all, I just don't think that's
the way. While I was thinking of all of this, I also got a note or two from some of you about having Ashlyn Harris on the show as part of a series we're doing now. While I understand people have strong opinions about her and believes about what happened between her and her ex that may or may not be true, I honestly can't tell you that because I wasn't in their marriage, you're allowed to have those opinions.
I still encourage you to listen to the show to be able to have grace and curiosity about people, because it feels like life has become toxically informed by Internet behavior, with everything requiring an immediate black and white answer. A villain and a hero an uplifting of someone or a
cancelation of them. And those two moments of my comment about Biles and the comments I was getting about Ashland happening sort of concurrently reminded me that at this stage of my life, I'm trying to do more listening, more understanding, and more allowing for grace as opposed to attacking, judging or assuming. It's better for my mental health and interactions with people in the world, and it's better for the people around me, for whom I offer more compassion and
a chance to evolve and improve and explain themselves. So you don't have to listen to anything. You don't have to agree with me. I'm just offering up that the world is offering me opportunities to approach things a little bit differently, and I think sometimes, as much as our instincts tell us otherwise, it's worth taking a pause and thinking about doing that.
What do you think, Mesh, I think.
That's a damn That's a damn mic drop right there. I You know, I struggle with this personally, right because I am a person who I consider to have a very strong moral compass. I feel grateful to you to have been raised by two parents who both had very strong moral compasses, who educated me about the world around me and the people around me from a very young age. And that doesn't mean I know everything about everything. You say it all the time. I'm a baby in this in this life game, you know.
What I mean. There's there's still so much to learn and acknowledging it.
You know, I'll acknowledge it sometimes, I like not it sometimes. But what I found is that even even for myself, I didn't want to get social media for this exact reason. I got social media my junior year of high school, and I'd already seen the way it had changed the way my friends and the people around me thought about things,
took things in. And the issue for me is, like you're saying, snapping to judgments about things is so convenient, and even from you know, what was that twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen to now, we've only been bombarded with more and more and more stuff. So there's always so much the process, and it's easy, it's lazy, and it's convenient
to make snap judgments. So you know, you see a buzzword, you see a person, you see a platform and a post, and you assume immediately you know all the relevant facts and you can decide what side of a line that you're on it. It's just it's easy to do, and I feel like it's something we all have to take
responsibility for. Is checking that stuff you know at the door, knowing when okay, maybe I don't actually know everything about this, maybe I should be giving this person a little bit more grace, because at the end of the day, don't we all also want a little bit of grace. Don't we all also have nuance in different contexts and different things happening behind the scenes that everybody doesn't see. So it's it's not to say also that some of these snap judgments aren't correct, because.
Sometimes they absolutely are right.
You know, if you're like me, if you're also Leo, Sarah's a Leo. Period, sometimes we're right. A lot of the time, we could be right right, but that doesn't mean we can't leave space for ourselves to be wrong. And that's how we make sure that we never align with anybody ever. Is when we're never wrong, we can never be questioned, we can never question ourselves. So it's just it's a tough thing to do in the world
that we live. In today, but it's so necessary, and at the end of the day, was so much shit happening in the world at large. We need more people who are willing to connect than are willing to cancel.
And now that's a dropped money.
I'll just leave it there because I don't want to mess it up.
What do you think, Alex oh Man, Well, I want to just add one tweet of Simons in which, to me, is the one that she was actually apologizing for. When she initially responded to Riley, she wrote, believe someone your own size, which would ironically be a male, and I think that's what she is referring to when she is referring to getting personal with Riley. But I totally agree with you about the lack of nuance in these spaces. And I don't expect somebody like Simone Biles to have
all of the answers right. She, as a professional athlete, has her own career to worry about. But I appreciate that she is coming at this from an opinion of inclusion and respect in lifting up children, and the fact that we have gotten so far away from that in
this current conversation is extremely frustrating. And I'll also add that I think sometimes the community that is advocating on behalf of trans inclusion in sports, they are up against such a hard fight, an existential fight against human rights for the lives and safety of their community, that sometimes what happens is there is a lack of acknowledgment of what the general population is aware of when it comes
to sports. So the example all often set is the fact that last year, when you look at the women's one hundred meter AE, thousand men ran faster than the current women's world record. Now, those are cisgender men competing at all different levels, and cisgender men and trans women not the same thing by any means. So I don't want to make it sound like I'm equating those two things.
But when you ask a random person on the street, hey, is it fair for a trans woman to compete against a cisgender woman, it is unsurprising to me that their answer would be no if they don't have any further
education or information on that topic. And so I want to respect that that is a place that a lot of people are coming from, and that in some ways it's backed up by their experiences of watching high school track meets, of watching their daughters and sons compete in sports, but that experience doesn't negate the experience and lives of brands kids that just want to participate. And I think too often it feels like there is this importance that is being placed on youth sports in a way that
does not matter down the line. What matters in youth sports down the line is inclusion and acceptance. It does not matter what time you placed. And if a team has a quote unquote unfair advantage, well, let me tell you there's so many unfair advantages in life. And you're going to be better off for accepting people because of who they are than rejecting them because they have an advantage over you potentially.
And I feel like you you make a great general point also about like because you as an individual, or me as an individual, or any of us as individuals have educated ourselves about certain things, that doesn't mean everybody
has that same level of understanding. I feel like that's such an easy trap to fall into on social media because you just think, you know, you've got your followers on your feed, and you're and the people that you care about who can be of more like mind to you than other people just random folks on the internet that you don't know, and it's very easy to assume that everybody understands things at a certain level. And I think that just goes back to the point it's better
to call people in. It's better to say, hey, let's have a dialogue about this, because then you got an opportunity to reach more people and help them understand. And then next time they see something on their feed or we have this conversation about Simona and Riley, they're not as quick to say, oh, let me jump down her throat, right yeah.
I think what scares me the most in this current moment is the fact of how it speaks to just larger misinformation. You know, following the executive order barring trans girls and women from sport, there was a poll about how sixty seven percent of Democrats Democrats believe that trans women should not compete in women's sports, and that to me is a sign of how flawed this current moment is in terms of people having information that informs their beliefs.
People have beliefs that aren't informed by.
Fact, and that's why saying that there's nuance and let's talk about it is the best way to get those people to understand policy at different levels. Inclusion at every level of youth is the answer. EO's barring everything from pre k on our bullshit, mandatory hormone testing when there isn't proof of T levels contributing at the elite, like all this stuff. That's why I said nuance, and that's why Simone said it's complicated, and let's try to prioritize
inclusivity and fairness. There's a great story people want to read it in the Washington Post and opinion piece by Philip Bump talking about how much parents are putting money into youth sports and that one in nine parents believe that their child will be a professional athlete, and how that's intersecting with their worries about fairness and trans inclusion, and to Alex's point, how unfair the playing field already is based on the amount of wealth that you have
and ability for your children to even participate at all, the likelihood of them making it to collegeen playing as a results of that wealth, on and on and on.
There is so much nuanced to this topic.
There are so many ways to call people in to talk about it that don't involve immediately canceling them and I think that that applies to a million things going on right now that aren't just this conversation about Sione Biles or Ashlett Harris or anything else. For instance, we just got a report today that Serena Williams and Venus Williams are launching a new video podcast, Amazing, Awesome.
Can't wait to watch it.
Where will it be on X owned by Elon Musk, which we're all working hard to move away from. Yea, we will reserve our judgment on that, as we will reserve our judgment on many other things until we have more facts, we get our questions answered, and if in the end we still decide, hey, that sucks, we're allowed to. But let's take those beats and have those conversations first. Per usual, we went way over the time we allotted for ourselves, so we're definitely going to need to change
the name of this segment. All right, We got to take a quick break. When we come back, it's anti coostable stick around.
Joining us now.
She's a women's sports reporter for Front Office Sports, formerly of the Chicago Sun Times and the Greatest City in the World.
She's on to make her smelly er pastures.
In NYC and Iowa grad Queen of the Thrift Fit and hot off of Kendrick Lamar WNBA doubleheader.
It's Annie Costable. Hi Annie, what an intro.
I I'm always anxiously awaiting your intros and they just get better and better each time a person comes on.
So thank you for that.
Yes, you're in the two timers club. You have been here before. Welcome back, but with a new gig this time. So tell us how it's going so far with Front Office Sports.
Do we want the realty or like the real positivity?
No? No, no, we want honesty, not fake positivity.
Yeah. No, genuinely positive things to say.
But I always try to be real in that, Like anytime you make a significant change, it's not seamless.
It never is.
And I think when you start something new, your hope is that you know you're going to come in and and feel just as confident as you did in your old job. But the fact is I was at the Sun Times for seven years. That was seven years of source building and building you know, a following and becoming an expert on all things Chicago, sky and so here
at Front Office Sports. The challenge I'm really excited about is starting from scratch, not in the sense of you know, my WNBA source building, but just as far as all other women's sports goes. You know, it's it's an opportunity to approach my coverage. It's in terms of women's sports the same way I approached everything I did covering the Chicago Sky and that's what I'm really excited about.
But again, like that's not easy.
You got to start from from zero and build back up to one hundred. So as far as my competitive side goes, and I think, you know, like I'm very competitive, that's the biggest challenge is knowing it's going to come with some learning curves and getting beat here and there. I take getting beat on stories. So yeah, that's that's been the challenge. But I mean, New York, why wasn't I here before? I feel like I've like landed exactly where I'm supposed to be.
Yeah, and what about New York City. It's very exciting. There's a lot going on. And for those who don't live in a big city, they probably think Chicago and New York are quite similar, but there's a lot of differences. How's it been getting used to living in a new place.
Yeah, So being back this weekend in Chicago actually was like a mental test for me. I obviously was there for work, but I was like, Okay, this is going to be a good experiment to see if mentally I still feel confident about.
The decision I made, or I'm happy in New York, YadA, YadA.
And so yeah, when I was back in Chicago, I've only I mean, I've been in New York three months, and my immediate kind of sense was, wow, this feels already so different here. And the difference was Chicago is it's just you can find your pockets of calm and quiet and peace.
You know.
Even getting out the house at like seven eight am, I was walking, you know, back my same path to get my coffee in the morning, I'm like, oh my god.
There's no where are all the people.
You know, the second you step out of your house in New York, it's just it's chaos. It's like from the second you get on the train, it's chaos. And again, at first, I was like, Okay, this feels right. I feel at home here, but I won't truly know how at home I feel in New York until.
I go back to Chicago.
And by the end of my trip in Chicago was like, man, get me back to New York.
Wow, okay, good, I'm happy for you. We'll see how the wong at lasts. I mean, I think Chicago is obviously superior. So eventually you want to come back, but for now, have your fun. It's a good, good young person fun. Let's talk sports because now, as you said, your beat is a little bit bigger and that's very cool, and I like to have your perspective on so many
different places and cities and markets. And before we even get to your main beat, which is basketball, let's talk softball a little bit because you've written some stuff about
the Women's College World Series, in particular Nigrie Kennedy. So tell us what you think it means both for Texas Tech to have her coming back and also what it means for a softball player to be making that kind of nil money as this AUSL Professional League is launching, And will there be any friction for those players in college ball getting to the pros.
Is it going to be like the old days.
Of playing for a really high profile program in college basketball and going to the WNBN being like, oh weird, we have like worse locker rooms in travel than I used to have.
Yeah, So I'm so happy we're talking about this because let me start with Nija coming back to Texas Tech. Obviously, I think what she did this year, them signing her and them signing her to that seven figure deal shows exactly how impactful she is on that program. And one year she led them to the Women's College World Series, and so obviously Texas gets it done this year, but her return, I mean, in a lot of people's minds, puts them right back in the Women's College World Series,
competing for a final. And that's why again they re upped on that seven figure deal. Now, as far as it goes in consideration to how that type of salary is going to impact the professional level, you're exactly right in terms of comparing it to the WNBA and some of the differences that players saw and honestly continue.
To see even in recent years.
I mean, Angel Reeves going from LSU to the Chicago Sky, big difference in terms of experience and where they're training, YadA, YadA.
But when it comes to.
Softball, there's still a huge gap in that salary. And I mean, when we're talking about a million dollars. The average salary for AUSL is forty thousand, So that's a significant difference. And so when you think about a player like Nija, she's not only going to have options to play here in the States, but she's going to have options to play overseas too, and we know that in Japan that's where players are making the most lucrative salaries.
And so something I've been asking different sources and different context is, Okay, could we see a similar situation as we saw to Diana Tarassi where she was paid to sit out and solely play overseas? You know, and I've talked to multiple sources who are like, that is not a far stretch of the imagination because the resources that teams have in Japan significantly outweighed the resources that we've
known women's softball to have here in the States. And obviously AOSL is changing things, especially with this investment from Major League Baseball. But when you anticipate a player like Nija coming in, you still have a couple of years. How is AUSL how is the professional softball space in America preparing for that?
Because she's already making a million.
Right and she's obviously an anomaly because she's making way more than other softball players on the NL front, but still worth noting that there are these players that eventually are game changers and leagues have to adjust in order to compete to keep them, and she's going to be one of them. So it'll be interesting to see how AUSL builds from this current four team barnstorming league, which is a great way to start, and then uses that investment from MLB to really expand and blow up. All right,
let's talk WNBA. There's so much to get to. We always want to talk more WNB in the show, but we're like a multi sport show, so it feels like there's always stories that fall between the cracks, so you're here to help pick them up. I want to start with the team in your new hometown, the Liberty. I mean, I guess this can be expected, but it's not always a given that a team comes right back after a championship with the same heart and integrity and passion and desire and hustle.
But they are killing it. What are you seeing from the Liberty?
I mean, the addition of Natasha Cloud.
I don't want to say I was a skeptic.
Sorry, Tasha, but.
I just wasn't sure or wasn't clear on exactly what her impact would be, how she would shift this team.
And my god, I mean her energy.
You you always hear teams coming off a championship talking about how they can't stay the same, they can't stay complacent, And I mean we've seen it cover in our coverage of former championship teams a lot of times.
That's what what does the team in is?
You know, they bring their their main coreback and not something really changes, right, Tasha is mentally a different player than anybody else on her team as far as just the energy she brings and how she invigorates all of the players around her.
Her.
The staff has talked about that, her teammates have talked about that, so so one, I mean, that's the most significant change. And then John Quell Jones, I mean she is like it's I don't even know how to put this other than to just say it plainly, like her absence continues to show how impactful she is.
And it's crazy because she's this dominant player.
It's not like you miss her on the court, but the second she's unavailable, you're like, holy, I'm sorry, Holy shit, but she is. She's everything to this team. So I feel like Tasha has again invigorated this team in their pursuit of a back to back title, and everybody else has just gotten better.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're missing Junkquell on my fantasy team too. Skyler's is really missing John Quell Jones.
Wait when I saw your team name, I was like what I had, No, I don't know.
In reference to Okay, I'm gonna send it to you, She's literally doesn't realize that the person she's talking to is micd up or that there's a hot mic near her and they're talking about years of the league and being old, and the girl's like, you're not old, and she like old pussy.
Oh my god.
Literally, when you posted this, I'm like, what.
Yeah, we like to push the envelope a little bit. Annie, you know.
That, and you know I do as well. Let's just keep pushing that da.
Right, that's right.
We actually suffered from a couple of hot flashes in the first two challenges of the Fantasy League, but now our old pussy is winning, so glad to report that. Let's talk about the other team that's winning all of their games. Minnesota Links nine to zero and if he's to call, you're my preseason pick for MVP.
She looks to be on a mission. What are you seeing from them?
Yeah, I agree with you on the mission statement. I also picked snafisas my preseason MVP pick, And I think, again, when you lose a title, it spurs something in you. But when you lose a title the way they did, I mean, they're coming back for a vengeance. And especially when you think about who Cheryl Reeve is in this league, what her franchise has experienced in the past.
I mean not to bring up too much of like the.
WNBA's history and the tea and whatever, but like, let's talk about it. I mean the Minnesota Links and the LA Sparks in twenty sixteen, that was another controversial ending to a WNBA finals, And there's a lot of people who feel like even in that moment, that was the Minnesota Links Finals to win, and you know, an officiating
call changed changed everything. And so I think when you consider again the history of the league and specifically the history of the Links, it's very exciting to put into the forefront of your mind the possibility that the Links and the Lever could meet again and this finals.
And it also makes sense why.
This team is competing the way that they are with Cheryl Reeve at the home because again, she's been through it. This has been something new. What I'll also say about the Minnesota links In and the Liberty specifically, is when you consider the issues with the WNBA scheduling, it's astounding that these two teams will not meet until July.
Like, where who did that? Let's can we talk to them?
Like, yeah, well.
I want to criticize them, and I also have questions about how many of the venues they're playing in have other tenants that take precedents Like I feel like you can blame the schedule maker or you can first ask to get a peek behind the scenes and figure out what they were dealing with when they were trying to make set schedule.
Yeah, you know what, that's fair. You know what?
Listen to you being like middle ground considering all angles, I'm just raging out over You're like.
But I agree because we all want to see them play.
Yeah, truly, And then it's like, Okay, I mean it's long shot, but will they both be undefeated?
That'd be crazy, can you? Yeah?
Unheard of let's talk about some other teams.
Who's the most surprising team to you in a good way so far this season?
I think the Valkyriees.
I know, I know their record doesn't necessarily show oh surprising in a good way, but again, I think the way that they've competed, it's it shows how good of a coach one Natalie is that the culture that they're building really is taking hold and that they as they kind of spoke about wanting to be, they truly can be a competitive franchise and in a very short order
exactly so. I think again their record isn't exactly what you'd maybe associate with, you know, exciting top tier team, but again, as far as what they were up against and even the roster that they built through expansion, I don't know that many people thought they'd be competing in the way that they're competing this early on. And another factor that you got to consider they have a number
of players that are going to compete in euro Basket. Ye, so how they respond to that too is going to be another test of the culture that they're building there.
And I want to take this opportunity to shout out my previously named but unnamed least favorite player in the league who has been playing quite well of late. And I'm not gonna apologize because my take on you after one game was an accurate take. But I will say props to you for looking more comfortable, getting your head about you on the court, and having some fine games. And you will remain nameless because this is a kind and friendly show where you don't call out people for struggling.
Oh my god, will you tell me off the error?
Yes?
And if you listen to this episode, you might have even sort of figured it out the way that I just said that, But maybe not because I'm snaky. Okay, what's the most surprising team in a bad way?
Oh God, people are gonna hate me for this.
It's the Chicago Sky Duh. What the I mean is going on? Annie girl?
I wish The only reason I wish I was still in Chicago was so that I could I knew, I could know in and out what's going on, because obviously you can observe from afar. But but one thing I really took pride in is when I wrote something, I really knew it or I really had multiple sources on it. You know, I was I was not out here spewing lies. Although people might want to think so that's okay. You guys are titled to your opinion. So with this team, I mean one Tyler Marsh. I when when the Sky
hired him, and I still believe this. They I wrote, they hired the right guy. And I think you don't have his track record, his championship track record, and you don't come from the tree that he comes from. And if you're not an adequate coach, right, you don't fake that, you don't get You just accidentally end up in the situations that Tyler Marsh has ended up in. So I still believe that Tyler Marsh is the right guy for
the Chicago Sky. But obviously this team when it was constructed, when Jeff made the moves he made, and he brought the players and he brought in something apparent was that they don't have a certified bucket getter. You know, they don't have an MVP candidate. And I know, right, I know those players don't even grow on trees. I'm not saying every team even has, you know, an MVP candidate player, but they don't.
Have a certified star.
They have a lot of players who who contribute to two teams winning, but none that you can rely on to get it done. And then when you think about the fact that, Okay, if anybody was the creator, it was Courtney Vandersloute and now she's down with a season ending injury, tearing her ACL against the Indiana Fever.
It really shows how.
The Chicago sky were a house of cards and are a house of cards, and now you just pulled out, in my opinion, the card that was going to hold it all together.
So I think they just it was a question mark from the beginning.
I did think the addition of Ariel Atkins was going to make a difference back Alan, we haven't seen that yet. But now you pull out Courtney vanderslut and now the question becomes will we ever see it?
You know, who's facilitating, who's setting up the bigs that can't create their own shots. Where's the inside out game that's required if you want to have two bigs like that that aren't really Yes, Reese can hit a couple threes everyone while, but she's mostly in the paint.
Camille is going to be in the paint.
You need a three point threat otherwise they're just dropping everyone inside and keeping you from getting it inside to your bigs. It just the formation of the team was tenuous already, but it required that some of their swings on three point shooters came out shooting, especially after losing Maybury last year.
Right, it's been and.
Listen, I want to give Tyler Marsh enough time, but literally my trainer this morning, who doesn't even watch a lot of WNBA, was like, how long is the leisha on the sky?
Coach?
This is brutal And I'm watching the games and that's what's standing out to me. It's not that they're losing. They are fundamentally offensive right now. They are not doing technical things right. They're they're not calling timeouts in the moments that they should. Reese is regressing in terms of bringing the ball down off of boards before going back up, Like, there's all these moments that feel coachable, and I'm wondering, fundamentally what happened to a bunch of these players.
Yeah, So another observation I have and I don't disagree with you there. But in addition to that, which that was a whole lot, there's an energy issue. Like this team yesterday against the New York Liberty and again Corney Vanderslit's out, So that's that's a heavy burden to bear. But this team does not even look like it's playing at its full, you know, one hundred percent.
And when you're a team that.
Can't be saved by one single player, what are you holding back for? You know, like this is at a certain point, it's got to be a little bit about pride. You guys are getting blown out repeatedly. Where's where's the pride? And so I think in addition to that, even there's an identity issue because how are they playing?
What what's their style?
What are they leaning on when you know they need to get a bucket and none of that's been defined, none of that's been defined. And then you throw on Courtney's injury. It's like this is really a big question mark. But as far as the leash goes, I will say in my time covering the Sky that ownership group does not fire people easily. Okay except for Teaspoon, But again I say that to say that speaks to the dysfunction that went on there last year.
They do not. They do not fire people likely they do not, yea.
And we talked about this.
Everyone was angry on behalf of Tea Spoon, and rightfully so in the sense of her legacy and maybe what she could do as a coach, But what was going on behind the scenes reportedly was not going to be a fixed with leadership the way it was in the players that were remaining.
No, and what I'll add to that is, and this is something I've said in the months since, is Teresa Weatherspoon as a player and Teresa Weatherspoon as a coach, two separate people, A great human being, No one's No. I certainly wouldn't say otherwise. I don't know her well enough on a personal level to comment on good bad. You know that's not my job. But player coach, two separate people. Player, hall of famer, incredible, No one will
ever take away from her legacy coach. She still has a long way to go to be a coach in the WNBA, Like, that's not an easy job. And just because you're a Hall of Fame coach or player does not equate to a Hall of Fame coaching career.
And that is okay to say.
Yeah, I was talking to a GM in the league about that, and I think there's been a lot of talk the last couple of years about a couple players.
There was least a Leslie kind of openly talking about how she didn't get a job, and then people were frustrated about Tea Spoon, and the GM just said to me as we were talking about that, there are former players that make great coaches, and there are teams that need someone who is already a veteran coach who knows how to manage personalities as much as they know how
to write up ecss and o's. And I think sometimes that's hard to take if there's a player that you really liked as a player, but maybe is it ready yet? All right, let's talk about a couple other Let's talk specific individual players.
Anyone that hasn't started off as strong as expected for you?
Yeah, I think Juel Lloyd in Las Vegas, and obviously you know her career is it speaks for itself already at this point. But I think when you consider, you know, the intention behind this move and the standards for the aces, you know they Jewell obviously wanted out of Seattle. She's made that perfectly clear. If it wasn't already before you know, the season began. But on top of wanting out, you know, the Aces were set on upholding this championship standard, and
bringing her in was about upholding that championship standard. And I'm not, by any means saying that that where they're at is on Jewel. I think Becky Hammond just spoke about how this team has, you know, a character issue in terms of not having that that grit and that determined dog right exactly, that dog is missing and that will is missing. And I think in order for the Aces to be a content, to remain a contender, they need.
Jewel Lloyd to be the Jewel Lloyd.
You know that we've seen the Jewellloyd that's leading the league in points per game or at least among the top five. You know, they need that Jewel Lloyd to contribute to put that team, you know, where I think they have been and where they expect to be.
What about a player that's taken the biggest leap, Maybe someone that you're like, okay, all right, look at this start.
That's a good question.
Honestly, I feel like this might be biased because I cover this team or I'm around this team as much as I am, But truly, it's going to be Natasha Cloud. And I don't even think because of her points per game. I mean, obviously you know she's I think she's averaging under ten right now, but that's not it. It's her impact that I've seen every single day on the New York Liberty. And again, when you consider a teams for to repeat as champions.
That can't be overstated.
So they don't even need her output to be crazy, like, they don't need her to put up, you know, fifteen points a game. So so that output, I mean, she's where she should be. And so yeah, I think Natasha Clouds fit with the New York Liberty and her impact on the Liberty so far is what's impressed me most.
Yeah, I totally agree, especially because we often say about teams there's only one ball, and on that team there are so many people who could be trying to buy for it and try to be the star, and it said they're all working so well together. I also think Kiki erie Fen and Sonya Citron because for all the talk that we have that is very true about how hard it is to make this lead to even be on a roster, for them to be playing the way they are has been a revelation.
Completely agree, completely agree, because aside from the Golden State Valkyries the Washington Mystics. We're going to be another team that has surprised me early on, and it's because of the contributions from both of them, especially.
Kiky eria Fan. I think her physicality.
Again, when you think about rookies and the adjustment and you're seeing her out here exude her dominance against some of the most dominant players in the WNBA, It's really got me excited to see where her career goes from here, because my god, I mean, I think she's she could be in the conversation for Rookie of the Year.
Both of them. It's pretty impressive.
We have to take a quick break more with Annie Costable right after this. Is there a team more player you think that is not being talked about enough. I think we all came in with such excitement enthusiasm for the Pagebeckers wings story, and the concussion and the illness has sort of slowed down us getting a chance to really watch how that might change anything else that you're like, Oh, why is it? Why aren't people focused on this or talking about this?
Oh my god.
I could go through like a whole list, but one thing I really wish people were talking about more is Kelsey Plum and what exactly prompted this trade request, why it was time for her to get out of Las Vegas.
And I'll tell you why.
I'm not.
I'm not like trying to stir the pot.
I'm not trying to bring up drama or you know, I don't know, encourage some tabloidy reporting.
What I'm saying interests me.
Is if you compare the situation to an NBA franchise, right, and you see a championship team start to kind of deteriorate, the why always gets talked about. It gets talked about so much that you're like, can we stop talking about this?
Right?
And so with Kelsey, I think something that was on the outside looked so obvious was how strong of a connection the Aces that Aces team had and then all of a sudden it was gone. And I think that's something we.
Should be talking about. Why.
And then when you consider how well she's doing in LA I mean, I just I want to know why.
Okay, last question for you.
I think I've been having these conversations a lot of late with either guests or folks who are interviewing me for pieces they're writing it feels like some WNBA teams still seem to operate from a defensive place, and I don't know if that's an attempt at good business, smart business considering last year's mess. I don't know if they
think they're protecting their players. But sometimes it feels like, whether it's intentional or perhaps it's the result of a lack of bandwidth or resources or whatever, that some WNBA teams make it hard for folks to cover them. They make it hard for people to ask sophisticated, sometimes critical
questions and to give sophisticated, sometimes critical coverage. How do we get teams to welcome that and understand the necessity of that if the w and Women's Sports wants to take its place among the biggest and most profitable men's professional leagues.
Yeah, I really appreciate this question because it's something that pisses me off to no end, not even just from the teams, but from the league as a whole. There's a transparency issue. And when I say transparency issue, I mean the simplest thing as far as you know, a coach getting fined, to you know, details about an investigation.
It's there's so much that you have to jump through a million hoops to get the correct information out, and it leads to, you know, errors in reporting, which is understandable again because there's like a transparency, but also it just it. I think it conflates the feelings of attack versus understanding, Oh, these people are.
Doing their job.
And so I think the way that it changes from a team standpoint, from a franchise standpoint is when certain franchises.
Force the others to rise.
And I say that having experienced obviously working with multiple franchises PR staffs, and the difference from some versus the others is astounding, not only in the way that they receive critical coverage or or even allow their players to receive critical coverage, or their coaches.
Because here's the thing.
If I ask a question that Sandy Brondelo does not like, she is well within her right to look me in the face and say I don't like that question. You know, no comment, I have nothing to say. But if a PR person is stepping in and answering for her, it immediately becomes an issue of what are you hiding?
Yeah, it's very pale Belichick, Jordan, how did you meet? We're not going to talk about that. I thought you said it was on a plane. Now we're all very.
Curious exactly exactly, and so so I think that's what certain franchises have to get a little bit more comfortable with, is let the player express themselves, let the coach express themselves, and let these adults in these situations, you know, handle each other professionally. And I think some of these franchises will be surprised that the world will not end when you do that.
Yeah.
We talked to Elizabeth Williams on this show, and one of the things I said is I think that there are a number, probably the majority of WNBA athletes that are willing to take tough questions and are smart and
thoughtful and interested in answering them. And then there are some that I think have gotten used to sycophantic coverage and soft coverage and push back against legitimate reporting that elevates the sport because they just it because it sucks and it's hard, and you're competitive and you're pissed that you lost or you had a bad game. But asking someone about a bad game if they were zero for
twenty is how sports works. And I just don't think women's sports will be the space that they desire all the benefits of if they can't also face that part of it.
I completely agree with you, And just to add to this, I think it starts at the college level. I mean, you've got to consider some of these college coaches and how they're educating their players on media access and how to handle the media. And I'm not saying that this is easy by any means, Like I am not trying to take away from the fact that these players these coaches are showing up on good and bad days and being asked to talk about it. I know on my
worst day, I would not handle it well. If someone's like, hey, Annie, why did you do X, Y and Z instead of X Y and Z?
I would have an attitude.
And that's why I'm fully supportive of players and coaches expressing themselves however they see fit.
But you can't protect.
Them from this space in which they entered and are also fully equipped to handle a professional athletes. It does them no good to handhold and baby in my opinion, and so I agree with you. In order for women's sports to elevate, to continue to grow, it requires the critical coverage, It requires transparency, It requires proper media attention, and so I think again, and it requires teams holding
others accountable. If certain franchises elevate to a certain level, it's going to forces to rise to be done.
Yeah, and I do want to add the caveat that it's a symbiotic relationship between reporters and athletes. You need to be prepared, educated, ask good questions, ask smart questions, understand the nuance, understand the intersectionality of women's sports, so that when you show up and you do ask tough,
critical questions, they know that they're being asked in good faith. That, of course, is why some athletes already are in a position to maybe feel defensive, because it hasn't always been a space where people were sending their best and the reporters were doing their best. So I get hey, and that's worth commenting on for sure, But also, nothing is fixed and the future doesn't look any better if everybody enters with the assumption that the other one is operating
in bad faith. There needs to be an agreement to move forward where both media and athletes and teams and leagues are all in pursuit of more sophisticated coverage, because that's what the league deserves.
That's what these players deserve exactly. I fully support that statement.
I'm Sarah Spain and I paid for this message. Spain twenty twenty eighth. Annie, we always love to have you. Thanks so much for coming on. I'm sorry that you missed Chicago so much that you have to lie about how much you like New York, but I accept it.
Listen, maybe one day I'll be back. Maybe maybe.
Thanks to Annie for taking the time and trying to spill the tea, we have to take another break when we come back.
The teams that make y'all proud of Pride stick.
Around welcome backslices. We love that you're listening, but we want you to get in the game every day too. So here's our good game play of the day. Let us know what Pride activations you've seen and loved so far. Were you part of Angel City's Pink Pony Club TFO? Are you obsessed with the Pride t shirts? Retired goalkeeper Nicole Barnhardt designed something else. Let us know you know, we love to hear from you, and we want to share some of the teams that are doing it right,
some of the athletes that are doing it best. You could also let us know if you think your team missed the mark. Looking at you, Boston Legacy. Ah, we were so excited about the logo finally being released and something to celebrate, but I don't know if you all
saw this. The club initially announced some Pride merch, saying that money from sales would be quote donated to a local LGBTQ plus nonprofit that's committed to social justice and creating, sustaining and advocating for programs, policies, and services that support the LGBT community. End quote sounds great? Which one is what many people asked, but the team didn't say which nonprofit was getting those funds, and it appears that the team is now leaded the post. The pride gear is
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Forget to subscribe, rate and review It's easy.
Watch the US Women's the Soccer Tournament coach using her prize money from last year's TST championship for IVF, rating ten out of ten happy crying emojis. Review Ooh, y'all, this was a bona fide feel good moment.
So okay.
The Soccer Tournament seventy seven winner take all event took place from June fourth through the ninth, consisting of eight women's teams, one of which was called the US women.
That squad pretty stacked.
The roster included names like Friend of the Show, Joe Luyden, Carly Lloyd, Elly Kreeger, Heather O'Reilly.
You get the picture anyway.
Former North Carolina courage Stark Kendall Fletcher is the head coach of that US Women's squad and led him to a second straight TST championship on Monday, while pregnant with a little one. TST posted a video of Fletcher addressing the team after the win, and in it, she revealed that she'd used her chunk of the team's million dollar cash prize from last year's TST Championship on IVF and that the baby in her very belly was a result of that process. OMG, you have to watch the video.
We'll link to it in the show notes. First watch it for Kendall, then watch it for all the player reactions in the background. Such a beautiful moment for that group and not a bad payday. Now it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening, y'all. See you tomorrow. When we talked to Howard Megdohl about his contributions to the women's sports landscape and his new book about Caitlin Clark, Good Game, Annie, Good Game, Ali Quigley, Hugh Ice, Forever
and Ever and Ever. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan,
and Emily Rutterer. Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and Gianna Palmer, Our associate producer is Lucy Jones, and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain.