Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where love is Love, but also where love is sometime zero. It's Thursday, May first, and on today's show, we're continuing our iHeart Women's Sports Week, spotlighting great podcasts from our slate of shows. Today's special the Renee Stubbs Tennis Podcast. Now, we've had Renee on the show before, and producer Alex and I also got to sit next to her for Last Balls Billy Jean King Cup Finals. Did we ask her all of our burning tennis questions?
Yes?
Do we also now know exactly why tennis players compare fuzz levels before choosing a ball to serve with.
Also yes. To get your prep for.
Today's episode, we asked Renee to send over her best elevator pitch for the show.
Take a listen.
Hi, everyone, my name's Renee Stubbs and I'm the host of the Renee Stubbs Tennis Podcast. If you love tennis, you'll love this podcast. I'm a former six time major champion and i played on tour for twenty two years, so I've got some stories, i know some people, and we have a bit of a laugh. So if you love the sport of tennis, you'll love this podcast. I'm joined by my friends On Thompson and Andrea Pekovic, and we just love the sport and we hope you love it as much as we do.
Today you'll hear the episode from April twenty second, featuring Renee and producer Caitlin Thompson. Renee also gave us a little preview of that episode.
We get into all things clay season in Europe, Stuttgart, Munich, and so much more. We also talk about the worry Index, which players are we worried about. Yeah, we're worried about some greats including Novak, Djokovic, Iger Schiantek and so many others. Leaning up of course to the French Open.
All right, Slaicer's That episode of the Renee Stubs Tennis podcast is coming up right after this.
Hi, everybody, Welcome to the Renee Stubbs Tennis Podcast. Caitlin and I are back together. We had a little of sabbatical last week. Hope you didn't mind.
You were on school holiday.
Where were you?
It was a tennis camp with my family.
Oh, that's allowed. I was just gillant.
Actually that's you deserve that.
Thank you. I do deserve that. From time to time. But we are back. We are back in regards to the last couple of weeks. Let's talk about the last couple of weeks. But more importantly, there was a lot of very interesting results this past week, including before we get to anything, the fact that Germany took an entire day off at a tournament for Easter.
Didn't realize Germany was that Catholic.
Well, apparently are for good Friday, because I was like, this is your prime time, this is Sammi Final's day.
They just skip a d do they always do that?
District always sky don't formber Remember Easter moves around, right, great, you don't know. Remember the whole Biden situation where they had trans Visibility Day and I was on the same day as Easter Sunday and people in the right lost their money. I lost their mind and money. Oh I'm losing my money right now looking at the stock market. But yeah, they all lost in mind because they're like, how can Biden do that? It's like, well, Eastern comes around and changes all the time, and it just so
happens it was on trans visibility Day. So he honored both, which is what the president is supposed to do.
Normal presidents do that.
I was shocked because it was a Monday final, which meant that we did not know the results of Shue Cart until this morning on Monday.
I mean, come on, like, I mean listen, I'm all for it, like celebrating Easter. And I had an amazing event last night that I went to. It was called later Sada. I had my Jewish friends here in New York invited me for this really fun event and it was great. And like everyone like, I'm all for people celebrating the way they want to celebrate.
You're a pretty goal.
But to take a whole day off at tennis tournament for well, one thing.
I was thinking to myself when I was watching Corlos Alcaraz and Hulgaruna play in Barcelona in their.
Final, which we will talk about on Sunday. On say is you know I've lived in Spain. I love Spain.
They are very very progressive there, but they're also a majority Catholic country. Oh, this is interesting that they are playing on Easter. H they played on Good Friday and Germany, which is not I just think of Germany as like very secular.
Apparently from our very German Cohort Pekovich apparently that area Stuttgart is quite catholic and conservative.
Okay, that makes more sense, because why I don't think they were shutting down stuff in Berlin on Friday.
No, But I just don't even remember that happened. I don't think I've ever heard that in a tennis event. And I played a long time, and I played over Easter.
I was shocked to see no tennis on my TV from Stutgart on Friday, but I was very happy to and.
I was like, did it rain? And I was like, wait, it's indoors.
Right, it's indoors.
I was happy to have a little extra tennis on Monday morning from Stutgart a final. Usually you just see the beginning rounds of a tournament. Shall we start with Stutgart as a result, and sugar back, let's.
Get to it, let's get let's get to I want to get to some really sort of funny things that happened also in the tennis world this past week or so. But Elena Olona Osta Penco, like when she's on forget it seriously, Like she's that type of player that you just pray and hope that she has one of those days. That's just things don't really go her way, and then it can be pretty horrendous the tennis that she plays. But when she's on and she's confident and especially indoors, okay.
And also this court suits her because it's a bit of a slippery clay court. It's not great for footing. Like you know, even even the great movers and arguably Eager Chiante is by far the best mover on clay, and Coco Gough, you see them, they're kind of slipping a little bit. They don't really have that same ability to slide and be controlled into the shot, and they're a little bit It's kind of like how Charleston as Charlston is also very so.
Brief aus of the horror. True being that different.
In particular is pretty well. I've played on them both. I did not play on Stuttgart's hard court. It was I played it when I was a hard court tournament, so clearly the footing was much better.
But now that you say that, Sugarat has been the scene to some horrific, horrific injuries actually on the women's tour, I'm thinking actually of our friend a drapack of it, so I think had to pull out of a tournament. Had to put out of the tournament a couple of years ago with a high ankle spreen. I feel like it was one of the worst injuries I've ever seen.
So maybe there is something to the fact that it's slippery in there and indoor clay. I don't know, indoor clear it seems.
Strange to me. I think what it is is is when you do an indoor clay court like that, that they're bringing the clay in and they're laying it down over a certain amount of time and hoping it settles and then they play. Whereas when you're playing outside on a clay court that is like a Barcelona or a Munich or any of these other tournaments. Those clay courts
are there all year long. They're being played on all the time, they're getting warded all the time, they're getting packed down all the time, they're getting you know, rolled, all the time. So they are perfect clay court. So when the ball when you're sliding, it's the same feel, whereas indoors they're sort of laying that down and it's kind of just like it's not really the same anyway. Having said that, Ostapenko's game lends itself really well to that because she serves big and she hits it into
the corners hard, and it's not as easy. Like if Eager was ever going to play on clay court, which most of us would say, if she was going to beat Ostapenko, it would be on a clay court, right absolutely. But if there was a clay court for her to
not play her on, it would be this one. It would be this SMAs and so I think that's why it wasn't that big of a shock that that Eager did lose to her on clay, even though now it's zero to six, it's starting to be a little mental, but it's also that surface that clay court did not suit Eager. It'll be interesting because they're going to play each other if they win their subsequent rounds in Madrid
this week, again not ideal for Eager. It's a little altitude and Madrid, so that ball does like fly on you. The serve is important and the biggest issue for me, if we go back before Ostapenko beating Saberlenca, et cetera, the biggest issue for me when Eager plays her is the serve is so vulnerable. And I have talked about this adnauseum, and I will talk about it when it comes to players like Eger, when it comes to players like Coco, the serve is so bloody important, and Eger
hits the same serve almost every time. On the second serve, it's that kickserve that goes right into Ostapenko's best shot her backhand. She's deadly on the returns. Ega has got to figure out a better way to get more first serves in the court. Her service motion is so discombobulated, there's no fluidity to it, and you know when she hits it well, she hits it really well. And you've got to serve well against Ostapenco because if you don't,
she's crushing returns on you. And she can serve you off the court as well, because indoors, particularly Penko, serves well.
So here's the question that we got into it a little bit over the weekend because there's so many people who've been watching the Ostapenko Schiantec matchup for years now and sort of marveling that there is such a Lapseidded had to head one thing. That's you know, you started the show by saying, you know, if Ostapenko is on watch out sure, but the truth is Elene Ostapenko is not on.
All the time.
Otherwise she would be winning more than one Grand Slam and winning more than you know, one tournament.
A year basically, which is kind of where she's.
Netting out, which is not bad. I make that career in artbeat but well, you.
Know, sure, but.
There does seem something particular about this matchup if some of us find it sort of comical or nuts or unexpected. But because you have coached against and with players who have maybe matchups that are certainly unfavorable and at a certain point become a little bit mental, which I have
to imagine, you know. One of the face, Yeah, one of the folks that I that I talk to a lot on the internet is Anastasia from the Grounds Past podcast, and she was like, you know, maybe I'm just crazy, but it looked like Ego went out there and was sort of expecting to lose, and the fact that she got three sets was actually sort of positive.
You know.
But there's so much fraughtness about this particul their matchup that yes, of course you and ask Deepenko want on to beat her in a so abalanca, in a pretty you know, close but decided affair today, But like, what is it about that matchup other than you know the server, you know, talk to me about how important sort of matchups are and why this is maybe something that's festered between the two of them.
Yeah, listen, it's it's always going to be a matchup. It's always going to be how someone plays, you know, whether it be myself in my playing days, you would walk on a certain court against a certain play and just be like, I have their number, I know exactly what they do under pressure. I know exactly what I can do under pressure against them to hurt them. And so there's that sense of comfort level when you walk on the court knowing that your best or your you
know a game will always beat their a game. And that's a good feeling, right. So Ostapenko knows that she is going to take advantage of the second serves. That's for one. She knows that if Eager is not controlling the point, she's not a great defender, particular on the forehand side. And so you know, oster Penko uses her flat ball striking and aggressive play. And also Osta Penko and I have coached against her a bunch of times. She's a play that you go, hmm, what's her strengths
and weaknesses and where does she go under pressure? And a lot of coaches will tell you that they don't really know, you know, because she she has a tendsity like the forehand cross call, there's no question about that. But then she can pop one down the line and you're like, Jesus, where does that come from? And it could be on the biggest point of the match. So the unpredictability of how she plays is actually such a positive thing for her.
Yeah, And it's honestly, it's what I like about her game. And I realize she has a lot of haters and a lot.
Of sometimes you don't know. I don't even know if she thinks she knows where she's going with it.
Like, I like watching her because she's a chaos She's a chaos agent. That's what I like.
I recognize that it's not that you know, enjoyable probably to play against. But also I think you're right, she doesn't necessarily know. Yeah, she doesn't seem that connected to reality in always.
And I want to see eager start pretty rejuicing a little bit of variety when she plays against her. I didn't see one drop shot. I didn't see one attempted real slice. There's no attempt now it is let me backtrack. It is not easy to do that against Ostapenko. She's hitting the ball so hard and flat immediately. But there were times where I felt she could have done a drop shot, hit a bit of a different shot, and she chose not to. There was a huge point in
the third set to go. I think it may have been to even it up in the third set when she went down that break and she had a second serve backhand, I think it was maybe to go fifteen forty, et cetera. And she chose to go for her backhand down the line, which is a very good shot for her. But every now and again, i'd like to see her do it on shabburt, just like hit a little drop shot off that you know osta Penko's running backwards. She's not a great mover on play. She's definitely not a
great mover. So you've got to get her moving, and sometimes you've got to get her moving in uncomfortable areas on the court like slice the ball, short jop shot once or twice in your life in a match, because when you become predictable that's predictable for them to be able to read what you're doing. Offer them return all the things, and Eger made some really bad, bad choices of shot and bad errors in the third set, particularly
offer return. Like she'd be getting into the third set or getting into the game, it'd be fifteen thirty on Ostabanco serve or fifty you know, love thirty and she would just miss a return and it's just like what is that? And that is pressure because she knows if I don't hit a great shot, she's going to hit a winner. But sometimes you have to force your opponent, particularly in really critical moments, to hit a winner. And it was very similar to what Runa did to Akarez today.
We'll get into that, but I just feel like eager panics. She doesn't play the ball behind Ostapanco enough. She doesn't play enough variety. She doesn't hit a couple of high balls like Osabnka loves the ball in her hitting zone, get it above her shoulder, particularly on the forehand. She doesn't like that shot, but she doesn't try the variety.
So the next time they're projected to play and I don't like doing the like, well, you know they're probably going to beat in the quarterfinals, they'll probably you know, because I feel like tennis, one of the things we like about it all right, I like about it is it's so unpredictable, you don't know, you know, making projections into the semis and finals just feels like an exercise and stupidity.
But there's a chance they could play again very soon.
Yeah.
On the surface, which is also Madrid at elevation, is a fast court which even though it's clay, will probably also favor.
Well, it's certainly why we do play. It won't be a massive like if it will be the advance you get places against Ostapenko on in Rome or in Paris, I think it will be a different result. But if I was coaching her and we were got to sort of getting to this before we start the pod, is that how do you change that mindset for the player? And it's kind of like a you know, a reset in their own brains. And I would say to her, look all these other times before you've done this, you've
done that, you've tried this. You need to go out there without a doubt in your mind that you're winning this match. Ye, And you know, I had a situation where I was coaching Caroline Plishkova and she had lost many, many many times to Patrick Viteva country her country rooman. They played a club levels. They weren't exactly great friends. They you know, she didn't necessarily like losing. And I gave Carolina three things only to think about in that match.
I wanted her to cover a certain forehand, I wanted her to cover a certain serve on a big point, and I wanted her to hit it to one spot in particular. And I literally gave her two or three things, and I said, and you're not losing this fucking match today, Like no, And even her husband said to me, what do you think? You know, he would always sort of say what do you think? And clearly I was always
positive with ever whoever she played. But I was like, oh, no, she's winning today, and he looked at me, are you serious? I go, oh, yeah, she's winning today because I knew that there was two shots that that Petra particularly liked. And I think that once you know that, it's sort of like knowing what your opponent's strengths and weaknesses are. When you walk on the court. You know what they're going to do, and you think oh, oh, I've got that.
And I think that that helped in the very first game when Petra, you know, hit a certain shot or two and it was almost like Carolina looked at me like, oh, I've got this. So you've got to be very, very positive to your player, tell them one or two things and tell them you're not losing this fucking match today, And that's the way you have to be. I would be with Eager, I would give her two or three things.
I would definitely tell her to hit some drop shots more and make her move and hit some angles, get her off the court, and then drive the ball. But if you're going to just try and hit with her, you're not going to win.
Last thing and your serve.
You've got to change your serf.
So yeah, last thing.
I need to because some of the things you talked about and I was asking you about were like a matchup specific strategy.
More broadly, you know.
I think obviously this is the part of the season that Eager tends to emerge as our dominent. Obviously, Clay Quarter, she's got, you know, some competition maybe from the Elina's Fidelina's of the world.
At the Cocoa Goths.
You know, it was nice to see Mukhova obviously get to the French Open final last year. But by and large, like when the clay season goes outdoors to a slower surface, it's egos to lose any concern for you with egas play so far this year, this isn't typically when she does that. Well anyway, she doesn't typically have a good Australia or a good Middle East. She doesn't, you know, typically, But yeah, like, I mean, she's had hard court season, she's had periods in the Sunshine doubles.
You'd want her to i think, be better looking than she has looked so far this year. Well for sure, and he look.
At two or three years ago. She had a thirty seven match win streak, right, I mean from the Straine Open, the moment ash Body pulled out as number one player in the world EGA one, you know, Indian Wells, Miami, every clay court tournament, the French Open. I mean, she was on fire. So you can't say it is starting
to okay. I call it plock on the brain. Right when you have a little bit of you know, where you're not confident, you start there's little things that start getting into your brain and you got to chip away at them, and so you got to chip away at this eager match up with Oscar pan Cope in some way. But a lot of it is she now has this like scared feeling of I'm not winning what I should be winning and I'm not getting the wins on Clay.
What's happening to me? And so is there concern? Yeah? Absolutely, I think there's a little bit of concern. Can she get it back and write the Ship and Madrid Rome and the French for sure? But if she doesn't, yes, I do worry about her psyche going forward because her game is so predicated on confidence, and that's where I would like to see her get a little bit more variety, because when game Plan A is not on, she can start tapping into game plan B and see and it does.
It confuses me because she started the year so well, like that match she played against Keys, and I talked about this with Petcirl a couple of weeks ago. I think that lost Keys just really hurt hers.
A sliding door moment.
Of that might have been a sliding door of twenty twenty five, the beginning of it, because if she wins that match, maybe even even if she loses in the final, I don't think that would have bothered her that much. Losing to Sableanca in the finals the straight up and just getting to the final would have been a thing for her. But having a match point and losing that, I don't know that that has sort of put a
little chip or a little plark in the brain. Maybe she's lost the confidence to finish matches or I don't know, because.
Yeah, she's definitely one of the more mental players.
Yeah, you know, and I think, you know, unlike confident to Peca, who just looks like she's literally kind of just hitting balls and whatever happens happens.
Yeah, it's a different pressure level too, let's be.
On one percent.
Yeah, it's easy to go out and take out a take out a number one seed when you have no pressure and everyone's sort of you know, you can smile. I mean, even in the magic up against Sabilenca, Sabulenka had all the pressure then the Pega playing with house money for sure, whereas Eager. I think she has a lot of expectations, you know, and I think compounded by the fact that she's already a player who's like pretty mentally you know on or off, and I think.
That, yeah, sort of believes that she's going to beat everybody on any day, whether she goes or not.
She doesn't.
She's like, well, it was just me, I played terrible. It's never about her opponent playing well. She's either I played great and I won. Yeah, you know, never never mind the fact that they played like crap. She played great that sight. But she is that type of player and if she loses, it's because she played terrible.
It's never good string.
It's always on her streets. To be honest with you, it is a lot of the time. But also there are times where you hit a shot that was just so dumb as well, like, but she doesn't look at it like that.
So the delusion part of her ballroom dancing career. With this amount of delusion, do you think she's like, I am the world's greatest dancer.
Oh yeah, for sure.
I love that.
I mean, but that, you know, the ego. The ego fest out in the final today with Saberlenca, because let's face it, Arena definitely has her own like behind the ship kind of feel, and she should, by the way, because she's arguably the best player in the world. But at the same time, today I think a little bit of horse's mental as well in Stuttgart, having lost in the final so many times there that I actually think that hurt her today.
I was gonna say, you know, Arena Sablinka doesn't usually suffer in the self confidence department, until all of a sudden she does, and that's catastrophic. Yeah, so she still has that. I'm really impressed by her in the last couple of years. You know, we've obviously talked about the yips on the serve and getting over the semi final hurdle, which for a while in Grand Slams was like her big yeah, you know, gating mechanism where she just kind of couldn't get there even if she was superior to
the person she was playing on that day. So I think, yeah, Like, I think one of the things that I've had really endearing about Arena Sebleca. She's so confident, she's so tough, and she's such a valkyrie and all this stuff, except sometimes she's not and she's scared and it's a you know, emotional But again, I think that's part of the inherent drama of watching her and being her fan that I kind of like, but it seemed like that was at play today.
One thing, I am getting a little bit tied of with a Rae and listen, we all love the historyonics and the crazy and the speeches, but I'm really tired of her going after her team when she loses with sarcasm. I'm over it when she loses, that's funny. It's just like at that point, at this point, it's like, all right, stop telling your team, hey, guys, great job today. You know,
it's just every time it's gotten, it's gotten stale. So we got it, Rena, we got it up that we just got to thank your team or night and just stop yeap giving them ship because it's so passive, aggressive and it's a little.
Annoying, not funny.
It's just not changing. And then she tries to laugh and I's like, oh no, it's not funny. You've give the guys ship.
Yeah.
Also, they're your PETE employees, Like are they gonna.
Yeah, they're not gonna say yeah, they can't put a mental finger up.
It's like to see them doing, like to see them. So you mentioned Runa and O crast should we get to that match?
Yes, let's get to that Barcelona.
Wow.
That was you know, it was interesting because we we sort of talked about a bunch of years ago that Runa sinner our caress, We're going to be the next big three, right totally, that was what everyone talked about, Oh this is the next big three. Runa, who was in he had that amazing couple of weeks being jo.
Blah blah blah.
We didn't even write down Djokovic. We got to get to that at one stage. But let me just say, Runa reminds me so much of Al Karaz when they played earlier on I was like, oh God, these guys are going to go at it for years because they are very similar with the way they play, very unbelievably athletic, that both of them are so quick. They don't have massive serves, but they have great serves. They like to come in, they like to hit that little slidy, little
touch forehand volley like there was a volley today. There was a there was a point yesterday that Runa played I think it was four all or five all in the first set, thirty all and he served and bollied and he hit an unbelievable little touch forehand volly which you know has to be perfect yence oucres because he's going to run it down. But when he hit that, I'm like, man, that was so gutsy of him to
do that. And then to see him he was the more disciplined, And this is the difference because know it, I wouldn't say he wasn't disciplined before, maybe because he was young, but also I think technically he struggled a little. On the forehand, he was a little bit this in way. In this way, I think he's starting to really come into his own. He's had the same guy coaching him now for years. I think he had too many voices in his head. He had this coach and that coach, and he's had that same guy.
And that was his childhood coach.
Then he returned to and I think that can't knew what he shows. It looks like he's getting the same consistent messaging, which for him and I kind of like this about him, like he's kind of been a punk in the past, but he sort of owns it in a way that I find.
I've once said famously on this podcast, sometimes he's got a punishable face because he did act like a douchebag, like three or four years ago.
And way to go Hilgaruna, for he has.
Been chewed so much. He's he's you know on the court. I mean what he here's displayed today, particularly in the first day. Look, second set, there's no question in my mind that olcraz was absolutely hampered with that right quad sorry groin area, hip flexa. You could tell particularly he served that he was struggling with. And look, Auterrez is not a bullshitter. He's not gonna be like, yoh, my leg hurts because I lost the first set. He's the type of guy that would love the challenge of playing
in Barcelona, winning a match with three sets yep. So he was definitely hampered, but the first set he wasn't. And that was a difference that Holgaruna was way more disciplined, particularly in the time break. I mean, oucre has tried to hit that back end drop shot like at three to two up on the midi break, and it was terrible shot, Like there were just choices and his forehand goes off.
His fore hand.
He missed some of those five feet fay sic shit, basic shit, And I think that's sort of, you know, one of the things that's so endearing I think.
About, Oh God, I loves which everyone loves it. I mean, he moves feathery light like Fetterer.
He's got the battle intensity of Nadal, He's got the flexibility of you know, Djokovic, Like he.
Really does have all the tools.
But the one thing he's missing, and this he could really learn from Djokovic, is the mental fortitude and the ability to stay disciplined and stay in because he certainly does not have that, and it doesn't show a match because he's so good.
Well, look, he's so fun.
But in a match like this where it actually comes down to a tie break and a few points and a few choices, he's taking mental vacations. He's like doing dumb shit, which I kind of again sort of like about it about him because it makes when he's able to keep it together almost a much better. But you kind of forget, like, oh, this is actually his big hurdle. It's not physical, it's not you know, creative, it's actually he's just you know, a space is too creative.
He's got too many shots and that's just making them, knows it. Sometimes did better than him in the final yesterday. He was more disciplined, fresh line, and you know he was rewarded for it, and for me, I'm super happy about it because I absolutely you know how I feel about Carlos. I love this guy so much. He is so good for the game. He's the very nicest kid you could ever meet in your tire life. And when I say, I've not met a nicer young man, he is nice to every single person. Stuff I did got.
Fun gossip, Oh, good, give me some. Apparently the ladies really love Carlos. Yeah, and he's gotten himself into some hot water among some prominent Spanish business honors because of his prowess. Prowess unless then makes me love him memore because he's twenty years of age and.
Let him have fun. Yeah, he's like, get the world need to be tied down at this point in his life? No, he certainly doesn't, and I'm happy about it.
But it is really funny just because you're like, oh, yeah, he's a twenty year old, sort of cultish young talent. But yeah, I can imagine Holgaruna walking into bunk Sabadel Stadium in Barcelona spin basically the closest thing you get to a home turf.
Yeah, for Carlos Alkaraz.
But it's interesting because Nadal. They showed Nadal winning that tournament twelve times, and I was like, fucking hell. First of all, what And then I thought the difference with Carlos and Rafa, because you know, everyone wants to compare these two Spanish greats. You know, Carlos is are great. I mean, what he's achieved in his career is phenomenal. Yeah, sure, but like Rafa would never pick the shots that Raff that Carlos does. You know, even he had an opportunity to actually break back.
In the.
Maybe it's in the tie break, and he came running in and he just hit. He chose a shot that you know, I hate coming in on the forehand cross court. He hid an inside in fourhand in a huge point and ran in and got passed, and everyone's like, what a shot.
From Actually I'm like, actually that decision.
Easiest shot to hit in tennis as a running foehand cross court. So he like, those are mental decisions that someone like Ruffa wouldn't do, which is why Ruffa could win the French Open fourteen times because his discipline was through the roof. But anyway, I'm happy about Runa winning because it adds that little extra spice of you. How about the French Open, because Carlos is by father favorite,
so why can't Runa, Why can't Severev? We know Sverev will have a hard time because he chokes when it comes to the finals.
But he didn't choke yesterday.
But yes he did not choke essay. But again he's won that tournament now three times in a row. You feel comfortable and unique? Is this little for him to lose to Ben Shelton on clay? That should never happen? Correct, Okay, I don't care what you think about no bendness game. You should not lose that match, and he showed why he's the better player on clay. But I think I think Severev and Runa uh saying to everyone just hold
the phone a little bit. Carlos is not the overwhelming favorite at the French So if you want to put a little money on those two players, you should because they're probably well outside the favorite betting. And I think that there's an opportunity there for someone to come in and say, Okay, maybe it's my turn this year.
Just like we talked about Eger and like you know, let's get the worried index.
I am the.
Only person I think who cares about Stephano's teeth buss. But I am worried about him because he put out with the back injury. And I love him, and he's been in years past a pretty solid performer on clay.
He's one Monte Carlo, He's gotten to the French Open finals.
I want him to get better because I like watching his beautiful one head of backhand and all of his shenanigans. But a player that I think you're gonna actually feel a little bit more excited.
About talking about for the worry in deck is Novak Djokovic.
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. You know, we cannot overemphasize this is the greatest player of all time. He's won more than anyone else. But he is not getting younger. And at some point, when you start getting this scar tissue, which is what I'm saying, that plark on your brain, you have lost the confidence to win matches. Even I don't care how great you
are as a player. When you're not winning matches, it is not easy anymore, and everybody starts to think you're vulnerable making you're making errors that you didn't make before that you are not the discipline player that you used to be, and at some point you do. You're getting older and your legs aren't quite there, you're missing a shot because you're pulling the trigger too early, or you just don't have the discipline. And I just feel like he has won one tournament, one tournament and a year
and what four months? Yeah, five months going into five months. One tournament that was the Olympics, and you get it over best of three sets, which I can say that I think that was the best tennis I've ever seen him play. Yes, but if it was best of five, would he have won that Olympics? I don't know. I don't think so. I mean because I actually mentioned that to Carlos when I saw him two weeks later. I said, oh, you know, bad luck, maybe in five sets you win.
He goes, yeah, I feel like two, you know, And I was like yeah, because he feels like you can grind those matches out against someone like Novak and best of five.
But which is ironic because what I think has helped Novak Djokovic so much in his career is the quantity of five set matches and we've seen him be vulnerable in three set matches and the irony now that that's hopefully playing into his favor. Although let's see, I mean he's been winning neither five set tournaments nor three set tournaments.
He's tournaments outside of the Olympics, which again is a staggering cool achievement, which obviously he was very focused on and I know a lot of his fans were like happy because that completes.
The trophy case.
But it is a little bit of a question mark because usually I think at this time of the year, we're used to, even in years where he doesn't start well, seeing him be viable contender.
And I think we felt that last year too. Remember what's happening last year and we were like, oh, well, he'll turn up at the French you'll do what he didn't and then of course he you know, the Olympics was I think it was just meant to be. I
just do. I think there was a calmer thing there and it was meant to be, and that Raffle wasn't there at the French You know, he was there at the Olympics, but he wasn't the player that we know he is, and it just there was something serendipitous about it was his time, right, But everything else since then, I don't know. I don't know, and I'm I'm going to go on the record, and I think I think he might. I think we might. We've seen the best of Nova choko it. I think he might surprise us
with one random tournament win before he retires. But I think that we might not see him next year, Okay, because I don't care who you are. When you're that great, losing sucks, yeah, And I don't care how much discipline you have to want to be better. Losing sucks. And when you're used to winning everything, losing sucks, and so you start to it starts to really affect you and your personal life and you and yourself everything. And it's like, why do I want to keep dragging myself away from
my kids who are getting older? And I told you this that the US Open two years ago, it was the first time I interviewed him before he went on the court, and I thought, huh, he doesn't sound overly pumped about going out now this match. It was the first time where I was shipping the Yeah, it was like,
you know, how do you get up? I think I asked him along the lines of something like, how do you get up for these you know, what is it about Arthur ash at night or getting up for these matches and putting yourself through this kind of thing, And he was like, yeah, sometimes I wonder myself and I it was something along that side. I wasn't that verbata, but I remember in my brain going, huh, that's the first time I've ever heard him be a little bit sort of like negative and over going on the court.
It was weird, and since then he has not done well. So I'm just I just think that at some point it's hard to keep digging yourself out and keep pretending that you're still this great when when you're not having the results and you know, having Andy maybe was trying to, I don't know, get a little spark going, or get a little of Andy's sort of ideas to make him better. But I just think at some point we all get old.
Well, as you were talking about Novak Djokovic and losing, sucking and not wanting to go out there after, you know, a time of feeling like you know, you're not who.
You used to be.
The interesting thing about this is I think Andy fought until the bitter end. He did he didn't, he didn't go out on top.
Yeah, but also Caitlin Andy was great, but he wasn't Novak. No like and and Andy had gone through his ups and downs, and Andy loved. Andy loves tennis.
He loves the I think he loves the grist, whereas I think the difference might be I think Novak loves the battle, but I think ultimately he loves prevailing over every type of obstacle, even those he makes himself.
Yeah, happened. I just I mean, listen, Wimbledon will tell the story.
Yeah, I think the first player at the friend I feel like it's done necessarily an indicator, but I think Lodon is the indicator.
Now. Interestingly enough, Sinner will be back and we'll see sin in Rome, so we'll see what Janick Sinner has been up to in is three months.
This is what I'm talking about. These are the storylines we've needed and been missing.
I love it.
And while we're on the subject of Sinner, there was an interesting tweet that John Wartime put out and highlighted the fact that the Itia is now having the urine sample people that follow you off the court watch you in the showers and I'm like, wait a second, that's always been the facts. And people were shocked about that, like what that's that's so you know, that's diving into
your privacy and moratherele. It's like, yeah, the moment you lose, you would know as a player, you would see these people. I was going to say something bad then, but I'm like, they're just people doing their jobs right now. But we would see these people with the as and gentlemen.
That's just goodness, some real growth.
But it's gonna get worse. Here are these people sitting there in the corner with their fucking what do you call those things? Clipboards? You see the clipboard people. You just know I'm not showering alone in how even if you win a match or lose a match, you know the clip people are there and they're gonna clip you and make your pee. And so the moment you walk off the court, they are literally behind you like they are velco on you. They're like a hemorrhoid. They just
follow you into the locker room. Clearly you have women, So the women come into.
The locker rooms, You're just doing your jobs.
They come it, you just doing your jobs, go into the locker room, you take your clothes off. You want to shower. Now, a lot of people shower, including myself, because you know, when the water starts in the shower, you're like, oh my god, they've gotta go to the toilets so bad, right, Yeah, And some people pee in the shower, okay, and those that deny it are lying. Okay, because everyone pee is in the shower, so fuck off. Those that you don't pee in the shower, you're not normal, okay.
So I would go and have a shower because I'm like, oh my god, I've got a peace so bad. But I would hang on to it. I would hang on to it, Caitlin, and then I'll would come out of that shower.
This is TMIO accepted, it's not because.
It's important, and I would go okay, I would tell off, I put my clothes on, I go to okay, let's go pee. And I would go pee. Right Because when you come off the court, you dehydrated. You've been out there for an hour, two hours, three hours, you're not hydrated, so it's really hard to pee immediately off the court. And some people pee during the match. I never did that because I wasn't a person that went off the fucking tennis court like everybody else does on tour now,
which is so annoying. And so now they're saying, well, they're going to be looking at you. I was like they were always looking at us in the shower. So why is this all of a sudden used to everybody.
I don't know.
I've been trying to figure out exactly what is new about this to people, but I don't think there is anything now.
Caitlyn, there was one time, right, just so people out there know how invasive it is. I was peeing in the cup, okay, and we ladies, you know, it's not that easy to get it into that cup, right, because the stream sometimes doesn't go the way you want it to. Okay, I know, we get into TMI, but this is a fact.
And I've got the cup underneath me and I'm trying to find it, and literally the lady is standing three feet from me, right in front of me, okay, and she looks at me and she goes, I can't see the cup.
I excuse me. That makes two of us.
She goes, I can't see the cup. I can't see if the if and I go, well, lady, I'm sorry. If you want to see the cup, then you wouldn't have to test me because I'd be a dude.
You'd be in here, okay here.
You would see my you know what, going into the cup. It's impossible to like, what do you want me to stand up and do it? Like it's so invasive. So people that say, you know, tennis is the most tested sport in the world.
It's insane.
I want to perhaps suggest, because I think you're right from what I can tell, it's not necessarily new. Maybe they just they definitely reissued the rules, so maybe people outside of the sport were surprised by it.
Sounds like no player were surprised by yeah.
But also the thing that I think was new, that that Worth Times tweet maybe was illustrating, is that the agency clarified that showering is not an entitlement, which sort of is an ominis threat, which is basically like, if you guys don't follow the rules, we're not even gonna we're gonna make it outside the rules for you to shower eat at all, which maybe is me reading into it, but I think the the emphasis on showering not being
an entitlement Therefore the implication is you could lose your It's.
So preposterous because you're going into the shower. You're not you have seen.
Look here's the thing.
I think, maybe not to get to go down this rabbit hole too much, but I think maybe the issue here is not necessarily about showers and people peeing in the shower. I think maybe it is if you were using a cream or topical substance on your body. Maybe the rule emphasis go to wash it off is that they were going to wash off.
I'm not an expert. I'm not.
And you are telling you about absorption of you have just.
Come up because with you know, with with the But I think maybe that's sort of again I'm reading to some of us which might.
Be putting testosterone cream on them.
Would they oh, okay, yeah, and.
Of course this is what happens. Oh but here's the thing, Caitlin. It absorbs in like five seconds. Second. Of all, you're on a tennis court for two fucking hours playing a tennis match where you're sweating and toweling yourself off all the time.
Yeah, so if they.
Think you're coming off a tennis court to wash off your your your testatone cream your creams, you are out of your mind. So the fact that they're putting that out there is just to make everybody think, oh, we're so stringent. You guys have been stringent on the fucking players forever, So it's just nonsense that they put that out Anyway, different subjects.
I think the one conclusion we can clearly draw is that, I.
Mean, did people not watch Icarus?
People should watch Icarus. What a great film Icress.
Is, and they were passing the p under the door.
Yes, that's for anybody who doesn't know. Is about a man who sets out to because he is a recreational cyclist, take advantage of the fact that he's a recreational cyclist and begin a doping program and again begins as a recreational.
Innocence like you taking meldonia.
Exactly like me taking meldonium, which is like, well, it's technically not illegal.
I'm a recreational level player.
Maybe this will help, Will it help? Let me find out meets the guy. The guy who's helping him turns out to be helping the entire Soviet U and I guess later Russian Soviet, the entire Russian Olympic team skirt doping protocols and he like set up the whole system and then it becomes this expos a on which results even way too much. People need to realize what they're in for, which is amazing. Anyways, a great film.
It won the one thing we can.
Be sure about, which is the tennis is doping protocols, agencies and approach still leaves a lot to be desired.
It is, but also trust me, they're not doing anything nefarious in the bloody shower because people are staring at you. Can we talk about little Harriet.
Dot and how showering sort of factors into this as well.
Speaking of showering, Speaking of showering, Harriet Dart, the British player losing a match in the first take around, she was not happy with her opponent's body odor on the tennis court.
Now, listen, we've all been there. I've all been there. I've had opponents that didn't smell good and it wasn't fun. But the fact that she said something.
To the umpire can you make this girl? Were you orderant?
Like if you're going to be that person and listen, let me just say Harriett is great. She's funny, she's a sweetheart. She lost her mind a little bit here, and she did apologize, and it wasn't a great look. The opponent her name is a skipping me, but she put out a great opponent Instagram later for a Dove commercial, which I thought was hilarious.
Yeah, she would basically said, hey, Dove, sounds like I need a sponsorship.
Yes, which I thought apparently probably does. But I thought that if you're going to do that, Harriet, just say it to your opponent. Just go you stink, like if you're going to do something on the court, just because then nobody hears it, right, you just say it to her and maybe you get under a skin no pun, all right, but I did. I did. It's not a good look, but I did have a laugh about it. It wasn't great, but.
I think because it ended well with Harriet apologizing and the French woman making a joke about it, it is all.
I guess so.
And I do feel like sometimes we lose our mind on the tennis.
Court because people lose their minds.
We've all done some crisy shit.
Should we talk about.
A player who is losing her mind at the WTA right now doing them? Let's see Serenko one of the Ukrainian players who has been very very vocal about feeling like the Ukrainian players have not been supported enough.
And this is not the first time she's made UH a statement about this. She's been very vocal from has been very vocal.
She's one of the players and to be clear, the Ukrainian players who have refused to shake the hands of Russian and Bello Russian players.
She's not alone in this. It's also Elena's Fitelina.
I mean, I don't blame them Marchakostiac, Yeah, but Lesio Cerenko has pulled out and withdrawn and UH had.
Covers to her opponents.
She's the one who sort of stands out as being the most sort of intense about this.
I'm not saying she's wrong to be intense.
About it, but now she issuing the WTA FO Essentially, it sounds like kind of a combination of creating a hustle work environment and not supporting the Ukrainian players enough.
Against She's claiming that Steve Simon, the former CEO of the WTA, was not essentially not supportive of her and very flippant towards her. That's how she felt if you read the complaint and basically sort of going after Steve in a lot of ways and the WTA and saying you weren't supportive of us, etcetera, etcetera, and you said things that made me feel uncomfortable that all might be well and true. And I'm sure, I'm sure that she
felt that way. But listen, I do know Steve. You know, think what you think about him as a CEO or some of the things that he did as a CEO, But he's a good man. He's a good man, and he I would find very unusual for him to be not caring or not empathetic towards someone like Lisa Lisia Cerenko. I just can't imagine him being just, you know, kind of like dismissive, bugger off like kind of thing. I can't imagine that at all.
What do you think is behind this?
I don't understand this, bringing this into the courts.
I don't understand this at all. I don't understand this at all. Look, Lisia Serenko is a little bit of a drama coint. Any any player will tell you that. Any person on the tour will tell you that she sometimes pulls some like drama stuff on the court, whether it be injuries or sicknesses or whatever's going on.
It's just like, oh, I think she possesses one of there's a stat oh the most defaults, defaults and withdrawals for all reason, for all things, all things.
So you know, unfortunately, it's kind of like the boy that cries wolf. At some point people are going to be like, I don't believe you. Yeah, kind of thing.
So where is this coming from Ukraine? Or is this about your mental state? Or is this about something else or this?
And again, what the Ukrainian players going through. I cannot even fathom what they're going through. What Switzerlina has been able to do over the last couple of years in highlighting Ukraine talking about all the time, but going out there and winning for her country like that, to me is incredible, and she talks about it openly all the time. Now, why isn't she saying or standing up and saying I
feel the same way. It feels a little bit unusual and a little bit it doesn't feel like you would think that all the Ukrainian players would be more supportive of this situation.
It is odd that and sort of maybe indicative of what's motivating us to your point that the most dramatic, the most sort of uh possessing of other stuff that's going on. Player, I mean, to me, it's hard not to draw some comparisons between this and the PTPA, which is like, hey, have you know in the case.
Of the PTPA last so it's like, hey, have the.
Players gotten short tripted by the tournament with regards to prize money and like the scheduling and s something this, Like, yeah, there's some valid points here, like has it been extremely hard for the Ukrainian players to you know, play even after the governing body is not just you the WTA, but also you know, the Slam countries and the international competitions like the BJK Cup and Davis Cup have stripped the Russian and Bell Russian players of being able to
play under their own flag, like you know, nobody's playing the Russian or Bell Russian anthems. Like but I agree, like there's you know, it's shitty, but it's kind of like, hey, is this the format?
What there is a lawsuit doing? What is the point of this?
And you can't She singled out a couple of particular tennis.
Players, Steve Simon is named in this suit. Some of the Russian players specifically are named in.
This suit, and it's just kind of like it's the same thing to me with the PTBA, which is like, hey, you guys, there might be some validity here, but like, why didn't you go and get some other support from other people? So this feels like it's more of a player movement. Similarly, if it was all the Ukrainian players, men and women, you'd kind of be like, oh, this seems like it's a systematic issue as opposed to an
individual grievance. Yeah, and I think that's kind of what both goes down to it to me, Yeah, and I mean it feels a little bit more individual grievance than it does maybe systematic problem that should be disolved through the court a lot.
Yeah. I mean what I'm going to enjoy seeing is Sitzelina playing against Daria Kasakina and getting to shake her hand now because she represents Australia and that is indicative of Derek Kasakino, who clearly has spoken up against you know, the laws in Russia and Putin and feels a little bit but you know, some of these Russian players probably do feel very anti war and you but also at
the same time, it's an independent contracting sport. They've made stipulations that clearly you can't come in with a Russian flag and all that sort of stuff. But these are individuals and yeah, you can have a word to them, and look, I just think I just think it's it's a shame. I feel sorry for her because clearly she's going through something and this is to spend the money she's going to have to spend to fight a lawsuit. It's crazy. I don't think she's going to even remotely
come close to winning. But you know, I feel sorry for Poorsha. Then you w t a c because she's coming the serious shit between Rebaccna and now this situation. It's just like, oh my god.
Well let's let's end the segment.
While we're talking about Ukrainian players to give a big shout out to Ilinas Videlina, who won the title in Ruin. Yeah, against a very exciting young player in Oga Danielovich, who I think like she's always been a hard hitter and she's somebody who I think is like kind of exciting to watch because she's kind of a dynamic player. But
she's getting better, she's getting closer, she's maturing. But alnas Fidilina, you know, at mid thirties, is still winning titles and getting to give victory speeches and shout out her.
Beloved husband, who we all love.
Guy.
I'm on FISTAA final, Like, that's awesome. That's a great outcome.
No, she's so awesome.
And it's just like another.
Fun indicator of like tennis is being played all over the world and all sorts of interesting people places with great and interesting outcomes simultaneously. You know, Like yesterday I was trying to watch the finals and they were all on the same time, and I was like, Ah, which one of these?
Ah, what are we.
Doing on forty two TVs? You need to be that person.
Going into a kind of a good problem.
Now we've got a good bar across the street from me now called thirty love It. We should go check it out. Apparently they've got some booths. We'll check that out. But anyway, we do want to give a shout out to the teams that made the BCHK Cup finals. It's going to be in Shenzhen in September after the US Open, which frankly I think is better. I think it's a better time to have it right after the US seven November instead of November, because everyone is absolutely tapped and
after the US Open. I've you know how I feel about this. I'm always like, let's just get rid of tournaments after the US Open, like the US Open.
Should be and Sirri and Williams agree about that one.
Hundred it should be the pun ultimate event and then it should be this is the way I would do it, the WTA finals and then Billy jan Kin Cup, like do it big time, you know, and have the home and away ties more to those.
They should have it at the same time at the same venue tennis festival.
That certainly could be possible. That certainly could be possible.
Certainly, it's like they do Ncuba's.
Not for basketball necessarily because it's only team, but like tennis sort of culminates like the team and the individual competition are.
Like pretty condensed.
Yeah, that could be an idea.
I mean a lot of times it's the same player.
There's too many tournaments, there's too many they've played too late, and the w you know, the wt schedule finishes super late, as it does the ATP and then you have the Davis Cup and the BJK Cup are at the end, and it's just like, oh my god, everyone's like an indigo. I need to have a holiday because I got to be back in Australia in three weeks. So it's just like you know. Anyway, So the teams that qualified were a great Britain, Japan, Kazakhstan, Spain, Ukraine, so congrats to them.
It can't be cool if they wanted, actually USA Italy because they are the defending champions, and of course the host nation is China, so they are in there as well, so there's some great There's gonna be some great matchups there. Unfortunately, the Old Aussie's lost to Kazakhstan in Australia because Ribakina went down there and played, so that was a big help for them. And so yeah, so some great teams are going.
To be in the girl and I do really like to first BJK Cup. I've never been to a single match.
I have been to Shenzen.
I've been to Shenzen as well.
Yeah, you lived in China, so good to see that. Obviously, we want to see the support there and so the money for Billy Jean King Cup is so big, Like, I'm really happy for them. And of course I'm not going to bitch about this because Billy won like two thousand dollars when she won Wimbledon singles. But they're winning millions of dollars. It's crazy how much money they're winning at Bella Jean King Cup. Like, the team is making
so much money and so good. I love to we should be Yeah, you know how I feel like that, But god damn, I played twenty two years to make sure.
They didn't get that backed.
I didn't get that prize money. So all these players should be out there busting their asks for their country because there's huge money on the line there.
But anyway, anything that we're looking forward to, I'm going to look forward to watching Madrid, which is a Master's one thousand, and I'm going to use this opportunity to once again call for the cowards who run it to bring back the blue clay.
No, it's too slippery. It was terrible.
It was a beauty.
I know it looked good, but it's one person. I do want to see how she's going to go over the next couple of weeks. Is Coca Golf as well. She just kind of lost away a lot this year losing to Paulini.
They we're going to add her to the worry index.
I'm I'm adding her to the worry index a little bit, just because the serve and forehand again broke down against Pavolini.
So it was fun to see Palini.
Yeah, it was very fund to her back. She's got some serious points of defense finals Paris and finals of wimbled, and she has a new coach in her coaching box.
It was fun to say Palini. But yes, Marcos, I can't have expected to win that match.
Mark Lopez, Yeah, yeah, I was a little bit surprised there. Coca got up in the first set and then lost her serve and then again at four or five in the first set, down love fifteen. No big deal, right, it's four or five, love fifteen, No big deal. Double fault, double fault yep to go love forty and then missus a easy back end white by mile and I was like, what the hell is that? So, you know, technically pressure mental.
As soon as the pressure really gets on her, the double faults, and that should not be happening indoors, and it should definitely not be happening on clay because on clay, you can get away with hitting an average serve because you can run the ball down better. So those things are a little bit of a concern. And you know the service motion. She gets on the front foot too early. Oh god, I could go on forever about it, but I won't. There is a concern, Yeah, there is a concern.
I would like to see her an eager playing against each other at the French at some point, maybe quarters of Semis, and see who can battle their their brain plak away the battle of the brain black. Yeah, but anyway, all right, guys, it's been a great couple of weeks.
Spring is really here about the just preponderance and skill comments, it's still called here, although we had a couple of nice days.
I'm really excited about center coming back. I'm excited. I am runa, as you said, ascending back up into the Alcor's injuries. Okay, yeah, Alacrez is nursing. I'm going to give a shot out to bask because I love him. Silly backhand and it's silly whole.
She's silly backhand. He's got beautiful back He's going to be sliced. Needs to work.
But yeah, I'm.
Sabalanc is still out there being crazy.
Oh one last call out.
Nike just fatably gets a lot of ship on this podcast because they've basically ignored tennis for what, like Kim Kardashian like get out here. But the Lilac Springtime Easter basket color that Sabilanca and Carlos Acaraz played in over the weekend.
It looks so good on that red clay. Do you love it?
Yeah, that looks great. I will say, I really like new Balances looks on Coco.
Yeah, she's They don't kill us, they don't mess with they don't miss And also I think on the men's side, Tommy Paul, they don't mess with him either. Yeah.
They well, I mean both of them are beautiful attraction, which the great parties and the whole thing.
But the god they're just succeed with their kits.
They both almost always look phenomenal and even if they don't look their best, they look great. You know which I think we should all be so lucky is to walk out on to the court with a great kid shout look good, play.
Good, because you know, if you don't look good, you can still play well. There are some players that do that really well, they will remain nameless.
Thanks for joinings, Thanks for joining us, everybody.
We'll see you next week. Bye.