Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where our mouths are agape after hearing the news that Captain America Hillary Knight is unprotected by the Boston Fleet ahead of the PWHL expansion Draft. It's Thursday, June fifth, and on today's show, we'll be chatting with the Athletics Meg Lenahan and Tamara Griffin for a mid season NWSL check in, a big picture look at what excites and worries them about the league, how to handle growing pains as the prices go up,
and a dive into the standings. Which top of the table teams look primed to stay on top, who could challenge from the middle of the pack, and is there any hope for Utah and Chicago? Plus a hard launch done Wright Night moves and is this keeper the keeper? It's all coming up right after this Welcome back slices. Here's what you need to know today. Let's start with hockey. All six PWHL teams announced the three players they'll be
protecting during the expansion draft process. As we've said before, the fact that teams were allowed to protect just three players from the start is absolutely bonkers, and that means that these decisions must have been excruciating for the general managers and coaching staffs. Some of the protection lists that have been released are pretty unsurprising, like Montreal protecting Marie Philippe Pulen, Laura Stacey, and Anne Renee Dabien, in Minnesota
protecting Taylor Heisie Kendall, Quint Schofield, and Lease Decline. But the biggest surprise was Boston opting not to protect Captain and superstar Hillary Knight, choosing instead to go with Aaron Frankel, Meghan Keller, and Alina Mueller. There is so much to unpack from this decision, especially given that in her interview on this show less than two weeks ago, Hillary Knight mentioned her commitment to bringing a p WHL trophy to
Boston before the end of her career. Now maybe Boston's front office was wondering just when that end might be given Knight's recent announcement that next year's Winner Olympics will be her last, but she did say she plans to continue playing in the PWHL. Other surprises include the New York Sirens failing to protect Alex Carpenter and the Toronto
Scepters leaving Sarah nurse vulnerable. Now we just have to wait and see if any of those big surprise players are willing to negotiate with Seattle or Vancouver or if they'll end up getting snatched up in the draft. If you want to better understand the decision making that might go into when and if players are pursued by Seattle and Vancouver during the current exclusive signing window or later acquired in the upcoming draft, I highly recommend the June
four episode of Jackson Jill's podcast. We'll link to that in the show Notes to Soccer. The US women's national team defeated a shorthanded Jamaic inside four nil and a friendly and energizer park in Saint Louis on Tuesday night, Ali sent Nora and lynd Biandolo scored two goals apiece to lead the team. Meantime, on the other end of the pitch, Fallon Tullis Joyce started her second game for the US of this international window, recording clean sheets in both.
She made two saves in the US team's three nil went over China and didn't have to make any saves against Jamaica. After the game, coach Emma Hayes said that while she's not yet ready to name a full time replacement for long time time keeper A Lissenaire. She noted that Tullis Joyce akaid the octopus is ahead when it comes to the current pool of keepers. The WNBA on
Wednesday announced its first monthly honors of the season. The Minnesota Link System Feasa Collier was named Western Conference Player of the Month after averaging twenty six point eight points per game in six games in May, while Atlanta's Ali Shagre was awarded Eastern Conference Player of the Month helping lead the dream to a five and two record with
twenty one point four points per game. The league also named Washington Mystics forward Kiki erie Fen Rookie of the Month after she recorded thirteen point nine points per game and ten point one rebounds per game in her first seven games as a pro. A double double is insane. Eriefn also responsible for multiple reverse welcome to the WNBA moments, as the rookie's been sitting vets on their asses with big blocks and sturdy screens since day one of the season.
Coach of the Month honors went to the New York Liberty Sandy Brondello, which feels pretty deserved given that during the month of May, the undefeated Liberty led the league in points per game, assists per game, defensive rebounds per game, blocks per game, three per game, field goal percentage, lowest opponent field goal percentage, true shooting percentage, just assist to turnover ratio, net rating, offensive rating, and defensive rating. So basically all of the stats more hoops news and the
best kind, especially during Pride Month. Hoops and gayshit Olivia Miles, the former Notre Dame standout who transferred to TCU after last season, and Matty Westbeld, recent Notre Dame grad now in her first year with the Chicago Sky Hard launched their relationship with a cat who has a hyphenated name in his own Instagram, yep Bean. Miles Westbeld is the debonair Kat's son of the two former teammates and his Insta.
Along with a recent post by Miles featuring a couple picks of the two hoopers, canoodling constitutes the official hard launch for the Irish duo, commented fellow Irish Hooper Kaylie Watson, and the Hard launch I'm in tears with lots of emojis. We feel the same way, congrats to the happy couple to softba all. The Women's College World Series continues tonight with Game two of the best of three series between
Number six Texas and Number twelve Texas Tech. We're recording this before Game one wrapped on Wednesday night, but we're sure all of you slices were watching that game live along with many other folks. Because the College World Series has been drawing huge numbers, The pre Finals World Series games have been averaging one point one million viewers, up twenty five percent year over year. It's ESPN's most watched
pre Finals College World Series on record. To tennis. The French Open continues today with the semi finals at the women's tourney. First up at nine am Eastern Arena Sabalanka takes on Igaspontech. Then after that match wraps, it'll be Coco Golf taking on hometown favorite Los Boisson of France. Ranked three hundred and sixty first in the world, she has a fairy tale run to make it to this stage.
Boissan is the first woman to reach the semifinals at her debut Grand Slam tournament since Jennifer Capriotti at the nineteen ninety French Open. And she's the first women's wildcard entry ever to reach the French Open semis in the open era that dates back to nineteen sixty eight. The twenty two year old tore her acl last year, just one week ahead of the French Open, which prevented her
from accepting an invitation to compete in the tournament. What a comeback for Boisson and what a cool scene for her to be doing it in France. We'll link to the full tournament schedule in the show notes. Finally, an update on a story we mentioned earlier this week. We told you about the absolute piece of shit heckler that five time Olympic medalist Gabby Thomas had to deal with while she was competing at a Grand Slam Track event
in Philadelphia over the weekend. While on Wednesday, Fan Duel told DESPN that the company has banned the man from using their services. The man had posted on social media quote I made Gabby lues by heckling her and it made my parlay win, alongside screenshots of a one thousand dollars parlay bet on FanDuel go round and find out bro ground and find out we got to take a quick break when we come back the state of the NWSL with Megan to joining us now. She's a senior
writer and the women's sports lead at The Athletic. The co host of the fantastic weekly podcast full Time with Meglenahan. She's everybody's go to journalist for coverage of the US women's national team, the NWSL, and all things women's soccer. Her dog Dewit's gonna be a big bro because she and her wife have a baby do in August fingers crossed for an eight to eighteen birthday. It's the best. It's Meg Lenahan. Welcome back bag, Hello, Hello, Hello, congratulation,
thank you, thank you, very exciting news joining her. The other co host of Full Time with Meglenahan and now a full time women's soccer writer for The Athletic. She's known for not just soccer writing, but also her coverage of the intersection of fashion, style, art and visual culture. She's a new auntie and she can order you a coffee in French and Portuguese. It's Tamara Griffin. Hi, Tamara.
I'm so flat that I was not ready for that.
Hi. Can you say swing and Portuguese right now? Ah, Bondia and simple enough before we get to the NWSL. We have actually a quick hockey tangent. Okay, because on Tuesday, the PWHL announced the three players each team was protecting ahead of the upcoming expansion Draft, and the biggest surprise by far, especially for us having just had her on the show and joking about how it would be hilarious if somehow she wasn't protected, was Boston Fleet captain and
Captain America Hillary Knight. Meg, you're a friend of Hillary's, you're an East Coaster, and you wrote about this on Blue Sky and said, quote personal bias aside, including honestly feeling like Hillary Knight belongs in Boston, but just looking at it with NWSL glasses on, it's intensely wild that a player of this caliber, in this stage of her career has essentially no control over where she's playing in
the lead up to the Olympics too. End quote. I totally agree with you, And of course some of that is that the PWHL is only two seasons old, even though Hillary Knight's pro career is much older than that. But what were your initial thoughts when you saw the expansion draft rule only protecting three players and the whole night all of it.
Yeah, I mean it is interesting just because obviously the NBCL has done away with the expansion Draft and we're about to like live through it from an NWCL point of view with Boston and Denver coming into the league, and we still need the final rundown of how this is going to look without an expansion draft. But the PWHL expansion Draft heavily favors the two teams coming in like you can build. I mean, Hillary Knight's unprotected, Sarah
Nurse is unprotected, Alice Carpenter is under unprotected. Like yeah, like just the sheer list of names. Like if an NWBCL team had come in with that caliber a player available to them, I think they would have been weeping with joy.
But it is.
Really and like, yes, one hundred percent bias when it comes to Hillary, I do get the sense that this was not anknown thing that was about to happen, and there is that period of free agency negotiation, right, so like there is maybe that angle, but like if you live in Boston and you have your stuff in Boston, this isn't an NBA shock trade or anything.
These players aren't.
Super wealthy and can just kind of pick up and move at the drop of a hat. And it's just I don't know. I think like this is why the NWSL Players Association has been so thoughtful and intentional about realizing how important it is for players to have control over where they and free agency was so important to the NWLPA. So again, like the lifespan of these leagues does come into it. But yeah, heading into her her
final Olympics, right, like that's the one thing she's announced. Yeah, and then in theory, you know, maybe potentially having to move to the Pacific Northwest in some form or another. It's just I don't know, it was it was I definitely had a very WTF.
She said she wanted to keep playing in the p WHL after the Olympics and that one of her big goals was to bring a title to Boston.
It's tough. It's tough. It's tough.
We could keep talking about this because I think also, as producer Alex rightfully points out, being a single entity owner for the PWHL, you don't really have to please individual owners by letting them keep rosters intact. But you also don't have players who are maybe going to be angry at the ownership of the team. That acquires them, understanding that it's the rules made by the larger league. But yeah, anyway, we're gonna do a lot of PW digital, so we'll have some guests on to talk us through
once everything is shaken out and where everybody lands. But wanted to get your thoughts on that, particularly because we know of your ties to that market and to Hillary.
All Right, soccer time. NWSL is about to return from a short international break, so it's a good time for us to kind of consider the league through week ten to America, Kansas City Current sitting alone atop the table, four points ahead of second place San Diego Wave, then the Orlando Pride in Washington Spirit just to point behind the Wave. What's your take on the top teams through week ten.
I swear this is not my California native bias, but I am endlessly fascinated by what the Wave have been doing so far this season. I also don't think I'm being dramatic and saying that nobody saw this coming when you consider how their season ended last season. And I'm not just talking about what was happening on the pitch, because a lot of that was informed by what was happening off of it, the shock firing of Casey Stoney, the departures of Alex Morgan, Naomi Gara, Jaden Shaw. I
don't think anyone was expecting them. I mean, I think that I won't name them, but there were some people who projected this team finishing the season at the bottom of the table, which is wild but not totally unexpected in the end of USL, where we see teams go from bottom to top from one season to the next,
We've seen it before. But the fact that they have a new coach and Yonics Adaval who is not only new to the way, but new to the end of USL, coming over from Europe, which is usually really really hard in terms of an adjustment, pretty much a brand new team. I think they only have maybe nine returning faces, and only three of those have been with the club from the very beginning. They have international players, they have players
who are new professionals, they have young players. All of the pieces that really will spell we're going to give you t to cook. Yeah, but they've been cooking this season. I mean so many different goal scorers. They're on like a five or six game unbeaten streak. I am so impressed by them. And it's not only what they've been able to accomplish, it is how it looks on the field. They look unified. They are saucy in the midfield. I am all in on Kenza Dali, the French international who
has just commited. She's like a centripaal force when you watch them play. Melanie Barsenas, who is still a teenager. I think she just went to prom not too long ago. She's been developing beautifully within the club. And like I said, nobody saw this coming. They've had so many changes and I can see them definitely making it into the postseason. Everyone else less surprising because it feels a little bit like how the table looked around this time last season.
But the Wave have been the chakra for me so far for sure.
While you're already offering up titles for the episode with Saucy in the midfield, which I love, but also teeing up the stats for this team that I had written down, which you're right. So last year and they finished in tenth place with thirteen losses, we're now in second. They're second in goals with twenty one, and they have a lead leaguing thirteen different goal scorers, with more than half
the regular season left to play, just unbelievable. Meg. The bottom two teams by a lot are the Utah Royals and the Chicago Neutral Colored Stars five and four points respectively. Any surprises there for.
You, I don't think so really.
I mean Utah, I think everybody did have higher expectations of like that run.
Alle sent Nor driven, right like, I thought that her Bangers could alone carry a team that wasn't really buil for success.
I think Ali sent Nor and Minazanaka right like.
I think those were the two players that everybody, especially coming out of She Believes Cup, everybody was very amped about the two of them, and then that didn't happen for Chicago. I really don't think anything is all that surprising. What I've ranted about Chicago a lot, so I don't want to like revisit the the same complaints time and
time again. But it just feels so very unserious. Lauren Donaldson may or may not have been a problem, but fundamentally that roster build really is one of the main issues. Like if they brought in some more pieces, but like it just feels like, you know, you have new investors come in, they're very focused about a stadium solution.
Which is great.
The current you know, news cycle around Chicago is that they're now in this equality bill around money for building a public stadium, which also isn't even on the table. There's no there's no public stadium that's about to get built for men's or women's sports.
Chicago Fire just announced.
Yes, but that's privately funded, yeah, right, right, public public, yes, public money, right, And I think.
It's the only win they've got, Meg, I'm gonna do. I think it's great that they're getting themselves at the table and in that conversation if that comes up, and it's about the only thing that they have to send out a press release about that isn't just here's the final of another loss.
Right, And so I mean, the nice thing about the end, as Tamara already mentioned, is that you can have a very quick turnaround. But when you have the quotes coming from the general manager out of Chicago that have been circulating. Shout out to to Leslie from Kalpals who got him on record, who he's very proud about not spending money on that roster and for getting money incoming which is then not being spent, you just don't see a solution
coming anytime soon. And like, even if Mallory Swanson, you know, post pregnancy, comes back and is the player that we all expect her to be, one player alone is not going to solve the problems of that team.
So it is.
It's disappointing, but it's not surprising.
It's especially disappointing with Alyssa nay Or.
Yes, so like listen, I watched her suffer in Boston for so long.
The magnitude of that tragedy. Knowing that she is going to end a professional career with the Stars.
Ah, it pains left out to dry. I know it hurts loyalty though it is. It is it is, and talk about someone that's good at getting the next generation to want more and want better and get through this. But she's a better woman than I am. I'll tell you that much, Tamor. If you're looking at the middle of the pack, which team or couple of teams do you think has the best shot to push up into the top three.
I remain intrigued by Racing Louisville, although I do think someone needs to check in on their like emotional welfare because this deep into the season, we're barely halfway through, there've already been two players who have not only gotten red cards in games, but had their disciplinary action escalated, And for me, I'm trying to not like equate that
to being a cry for help. I know that Beviannas has this team playing a super aggressive style of football, high pressing from top to bottom, but I just wonder if something's going on there beyond what we're seeing on the field, because what I see on the field outside of that does have some promise and probably more momentum than I see coming out of this team at this point in the season. The way that sav Damelo is able to draw foul, she's excellent with her free kick service.
Kayla Fisher prior to getting the red card, I mean, even considering it, I think has had a really interesting run of form. When Ari Borges comes back, the other player who got that red card, I do think that they're putting some interesting pieces together, and I'm going to be paying attention. I mean, they tend to not make too many moves during these transfer windows, but maybe I'll be surprised this summer. So that's one team I'm going
to be paying attention to. This is probably a little bit of California bias, but I'm hoping for better for BFC. They just started playing Hannah Biebar who they signed a few months ago, but in her first game, I think she and this is what I've been told even before she started playing with the team, that she was going to revitalize that midfield. I think there's probably been a little bit too much rotation for them to be able
to build on any sort of consistency. But I'm going to be hoping for them just from like a spiritual perspective. I hope that I'm right, But right now, I'm going to say Louisville is most intriguing to me, and they love to crush people's dreams, so I think the second half of the season for them is going to be interesting.
I love that you're digging into the psyches and the spiritual wellbeings of those times to the California girl, I appreciate that. Speaking of spiritual wellbeing, we did sort of not talk about it on our show, and we should have mentioned Kayla Fisher's three match ban for the hair poll Meg. We heard Tamara concerned about potentially being a cry for help for me, certainly when I see that it is so outside the bounds of just I'm frustrated, and this is coming from someone that got a lot
of yellow cards in field hockey. I bumped a lot of people. I pushed a lot of people out of my way, but it was all in pursuit of the next play. When you yank someone and pull them by the hair, that is a totally different thing. What did you make of that? And it feels sort of I don't feel like we've seen something similar in the NWSL. No, I think we have, remembering the college gal who like lost her mind during that.
Yeah, I mean, hair pulling is definitely not as rare, but like there have been some stomps that have happened in the NWSL, right Like there, there is absolutely you know, people get wildly competitive and things happen. But I do think, you know, the NWSL has to send a message here of saying like this has to go right, and so immediately turning it into a three game suspension, yes, good.
Could it have even been more like send the message now and get it cut out right and so there, I think there probably could have been a little bit more or you know, like really upping the fine generally, player finds are really not that high. But I think there does have to be a consequence to like really keep this out of bout exactly and so but at the at the end of the day, like I don't know the physicality piece of it.
I mean from a from a.
Racing point of view, I think there is a really interesting question of just like why they rely so much on physicality and because that's not what I ever would have associated Beviana's as a player with. That's not something that like when I think about watching her with Seattle Rain, that comes to mind immediately. And I believe in her as a head coach. I think she's, you know, a head coach that the end of cl also honestly desperately needs to succeed to.
Like prove that path exists for players. But yeah, could the n.
OFSL have sent a much stronger message on that front. Honestly, probably, but they they have so much going on.
Sarah, I mean, at least we're grateful about the three match band is.
She's been very star of the show today.
So waits she called her, I was like, maybe she meant bro in the gender expansive.
I mean that's totally true.
I mean I do actually refer to her as bro frequently in this household, so it's totally acceptable.
My apologies to w a big sibling. Big sibling. There goes Tamaragatham FC, winners of the inaugural conkakaf W Champions Cup, a tournament dating back to last season. What kind of weight are you putting into that win in that tournament and also currently in ninth place with twelve points? What needs to happen for them to find similar success in the league that they play in.
So as far as continental tournaments go, this one is still very much in its nascent stage. I don't think it helped that it happens so close to Champions League, which is the biggest continental club tournament that you get. I think in terms of the club, they from the coach to players have spoken at length about the importance of sort of acquiring these sort of continental trophies because they want to be a global club, they want to be a global brand, So I think in terms of
that it was a positive for them. I think given where they are right now in the NW cell table, it's got to be some sort of confidence boost in a broader sense. I am not yet going to put too much weight into them winning this tournament only because it's so new. I mean, Tigress definitely put up a fight. From an atmospheric standpoint. They had a ton of fans in the crowd for both games in the semi final and the final, which is great and obviously something that
you want to build on. It was an entertaining game, it wasn't I think the on field product in that final probably wasn't the best. But I know Estaire had been on a bit of a gold route leading up to that. She's now definitely in competition for the end of your Cell Golden Boot, so I think from individual standpoints, it was important for her to get that penalty to
convert it. Hopefully that'll carry over into league play in terms of what they need to do to sort of get squarely back into the playoff table or just get back to where I know that they believe they're meant to be. I think they probably need to be better at making adjustments in games. I mean, es there, she is still on a run right now.
She started off crazy hot despite that little gap.
Right but I think that they probably need to be a little bit more humble about their ability to just do their thing and play their style, and that that will necessarily translate to success. I think similar to what I was saying about AFC and the rotations, I know that Wan Carlos Amorros is spoiled for choice when it comes to Gotham's attacking line between Jase, between Midge Purse, between us there between oh my god, I'm blinking on her name, the really the other saucy one who.
Wears her soas over. As soon as you said Sleeves, I was like, Eli Stevens.
Yes, thank you, I get Chicago stars who made it out okay to celebrate.
Yes, Gaby Porcillo when she comes back from injury. And I appreciate that. You know, based on what the game needs, that will determine who makes that starting lineup. But I've seen what I think is an emerging partnership between Jason Mitche Purse, for example. What does it look like to sort of build on that.
With It's kind of wild for you to say all those names and then realize that the team only has twelve points. It's like, what ch'all doing something?
Let's clicking, let's.
Figure it out. Yeah, Meg, I was listening to a touch more and it's always hilarious to me when Rapino tries to explain to Sue Bird Soccer, especially cups like this. She's like, Okay, so like Europe is like the CONCA calf and then the different leagues are like the countries. And then and I was listening, I was like, I
know what it is, and I'm still confused. So for those who are listening, maybe explain why the NWSL would want to be involved in a CONCA Cafe W Champions Cup, what it is compared to Europe, and especially for those
who don't even really understand how Europe works. You don't have to get too deep in, but just a top level idea of how the NWSL, both in the way that they abolished the draft and joined the FIFA International Timeline, but also in some of these decisions around the cups are trying to become part of the global game.
Yeah.
I mean, so NWUSL, right, is a league. There's kind of two structures. You have a club structure and an international structure. So from a club point of view, everyone like all of the leagues then belonged to their federation. Right, So NWSL is sanctioned by US Soccer, US soccer belongs to CONKA CAF, which is the confederation and represents North and you know basically like Canada, US, Mexico and Central America. So there is this kind of structure that keeps going up.
Eventually you do hit FIFA. In Europe, they have UEFA, which is you know, truly all of Europe and Champions League and I think every you know, casual viewer is probably familiar with what Champions League looks like in terms of all these clubs coming together playing and then you get a trophy at the end of it. So why this is actually really important for the NWSL is because now FIFA are global overlords have decided that there's going to be is that there's going to be a Club
World Cup on the women's side. So what is interesting about that is they had announced it and you know, we're kind of chugging along with absolutely zero details, and then they had to be like, oh, actually wait, we're not ready for this entirely, and so they've kind of restructured it so it's an every four year thing, just
like on the men's side. But what's going to happen is that there's essentially like a smaller version of it where the champion from every confederation for the most part minus one plays in and then you get a club World Champion, and then there's going to be a full Club World Cup. So Gotham winning this actually is important because it gets them into the smaller version of it, and it gets them into the bigger version of it,
which isn't going to happen until twenty twenty eight. I really hope your listeners are just like, Wow, I love governance talk.
It's so much fun.
Actually help me because I was slightly confused about the different World Club Cups Club World Cups, and so the idea that the smaller one is happening because the bigger one wasn't ready, but the bigger one is still happening,
that all makes sense now. And so essentially, if you like watching the US and the World Cup, it's like that, except it will be your NWSL team, not mine, because I still live for the Chicago Stars, but the one that you like might be in it, and then they'll play other clubs from around the world and it would be awesome. I would love to watch the best NWSL
against you know, Chelsea and other teams like that. You hear about that you know, are great, and then we could stop having our subjective conversations, Yeah, which is the best league in the world if one of the ends up having all the best teams in the finals of the You know.
Though, I will say, what is going to be really interesting about this is just in terms of you know, one of the biggest conversations on both the men's and women's side is player load and the calendar getting more and more congested and fitting things in, and so when you have these sort of you know, club competitions also stacking on top of international competitions, I think there's always going to be that cavea of who's in season, who's out of season, who's in season right, and so like
Epipe exactly, and so it like, yes, we are going to finally be able to maybe say, like oh, okay, an nd OFB sale team versus Barcelona with a trophy on the line, But at the same time, one.
Of those seasons, who's healthy, who's healthy.
Yeah, it's gonna I think there's always going to be that level to it as well.
We'll just have Kathy Engelbert pop on over and make a prioritization rule like in the WNBA and force people to stick around for whatever she most prioritizes. Tamara, you guys did a great episode discussing the Unwell FC League Supporters group that is headed by Call Her Daddy podcast
host Alex Cooper. Now that the debut of the Unwell FC event has happened, any of your own takeaways or maybe standout comments that you saw from some of the Supporters Group members that you had on the show that stand out to you.
I will say I was pleasantly something a little bit more diluted than surprise necessarily by how thoughtful a lot of the Supporters Group members were. I think that you could probably characterize most supporters groups in the NWSL as super super progressive, if not like straight up lefty. So for them to say things like listen, I know that everyone is out here just trying to make a buck, I understand.
I have no qualms.
I'm not holding it against Alex Cooper for wanting to get involved in the NWSL, because who wouldn't want to be involved in the NWSL right now, I wasn't necessarily expecting to hear them sort of preface their arguments with that, and that to me speaks to a real sense of thoughtfulness that I think at least people who are involved in supporters' groups sort of embrace in the NWSL, which is nice and I think it gives me some hope about how these sorts of partnerships might work in the future,
especially if others who are interested to have listened to or been following the way things went with Unwell. So I think that was probably one of the more surprising things that I heard, but it was a resounding Save for one person that I spoke to who had ties to the club team that he was supporting, he wasn't an independent supporters group by any means. He formed the group with the husband of one of the founders of AFC.
But people are.
Skeptical, and rightfully so. I mean, it's hard to not sort of view what happened with Unwell and this sort of corporate backed supporters group as like a colonial sort of thing where you have these like indigenous actors who have been organizing and building things from scratch with very
little resources. Most of them are volunteers, none of them are getting paid to do this, who are now sort of being imposed upon by people who have been like, oh, look at this way to make money let me bring myself and my sort of somewhat knowledge of what's going on and just make shit happen.
Sorry, can I curse?
That just came out? Absolutely?
Okay?
Cool?
And now there's a question of what happens to the people who've been here all along, What does visibility look like, what does investment look like, what is partnership with those people look like. I will say things have been crickets from the Unwell front since that game, And I'm just realizing this because you're asking me now, I've barely even
been thinking about it myself. I will definitely be staying tune because the plan is to sort of tour these activations around the league, which probably is not going to happen until the other side of the summer break. But one thing that a supporters group mentioned to me that I hadn't really considered is that where Unwell goes is also going to be determined by the end of your
cell club's pre existing partnerships. So, for example, if an end of you cl club has already partnered with a beverage company, Unwell won't be able to sort of bring themselves to that club because there's going to be a conflict of interest, So if anyone is trying to sort of predict where Unwell might land next, that's an important filter to consider.
A city is one of those.
Yeah, Angel City is one of those clubs, for example, because they partnered with Yoba Mante. I think they have a gatorade partnership one with like a local winery, So that was one of the more interesting things I learned covering that story.
Yeah, Meg, there's been criticism for things like on WELLFC, and I think tamaraw of note in your comparison is that whether or not supporters groups are consistently led by people of color, which a lot of them are, they are often led by LGBTQ plus people or other marginalized groups.
So whether the comparison goes toe to toe or apples for apples when it comes to colonials usually being you know, white folks going into spaces and trying to plunder them for greed reasons, it does apply in terms of like power dynamics and majority versus my minority or at least marginalized, So I think it's a good analogy. Mega. Aside from UNWELLFC, the league has some giant wins like Big valuation numbers and new investors coming in. What excites you and what
concerned you about the NWSL right now? Because I know you and I have talked kind off the record sometimes about like what's going on, but then also like, oh this is good, there's you know, there's a lot to look at.
Yeah, yeah, I think it is. I mean it's always a big spag with the NWSL, right I think you can point to the valuations, you can point to the
expansion fees. But I also think that there's now this kind of I don't know, like almost doom lingering over the NWSL when it comes to expansion, because Jessica Berman has gone on the record a few times being like, hey, we could be as big number wise as the NFL when it comes to teams, and everybody's kind of looking at that and being like does this league need to
be at thirty teams right now? So for every good story, there's also this kind of big question mark hanging out after it, being like what.
Where where are you going with this?
Because it doesn't seem to resemble where earth logic would necessarily take you.
So there's that part of it.
I think what I'm also watching for from the NWSL is like, yes, they've announced all the Pride stuff. I think the teams are still very into it. But I think the nw CL has not yet really figured out how it wants to exist in the Trump world right at the moment, and so I think there is some real cautiousness, and there is you know, I think we've been seeing.
Some quotes about like this isn't DEI and it's.
You also can't give up on some of the like really founding values that the league has has had since the beginning, And yeah, that's kind of what I'm watching for right now, is just the path that is being charted. I have, honestly probably a lot more questions than I do sort of feeling confident. I think what has been good is watching more kind of like big name partners come in the title MLL deal.
Though I will say the.
Timing was really funny on that title mull deal, because I don't know if anybody else is a dedicated Netflix watcher, But over the past like a couple of days, right as that deal got announced, the number one show on Netflix was about the title Nall Murders in the eighties, and I was like, oh, no, one's actually thinking about like this in terms of tile all right now, But.
No, I was thinking about how it was like tail and all unwell, like our sponsorships are really starting to reflect how we're all feeling right now.
Yeah, I know it was like I am an advil Gurley, but I can honestly I like the Painkiller front like sure it's great, yeah, so's there's good, there's bad. I think you know my question for the NB so honestly, even you know post Lisa Baird, Jessica Berman coming in, after you get through the crisis, right, what comes next? And the business side has looked really really strong and then departures from the front office. Tatiana, who ran the
sporting side, is going to leave. Julie Hadden was a name that I don't think anyone expected to be departing as chief commercial officer, and that was really I think someone that if you interacted with her, you trusted her and her sort of vision.
And she was in the ownership group of the Stars with me and then left and smartly got out of it before the sale and everything else happened so that she could divest and go to the league. And had worked with the NFL in some really high level places before, so it felt like sort of she was going to be there for a while. I was surprised by that as well.
Right, So there's just a few things, and like I think Julie Hadden and I would frequently kind of if there is one area where I think we would have some really interesting conversations, is just you know, using NFL as an example for the NWSL, because I think there's definitely some instructive stuff for the NWSL to take. Like the NFL is the dominant professional sports league in America, you have to be looking at it in what it's doing in order to learn things from.
It, right, And you can take pieces without embracing the.
Whole correct, right.
And so the sort of story that I've been kind of keeping in the back of my head is the nflification of the NWSL, right, and how that seems to be the path that they really want to follow, whereas you have maybe this alternate kind of like value slash, you know, example of the WNBA, and how the WNBA has like truly you know, gone mainstream in a way that the end of Yousell still has yet to achieve, and why they're kind of healing I would say right towards the end of the NFL rather than left towards
the WNBA.
Well, and it's interesting too, and I've had some really great conversations with Jessica Berman. I know that she has her critics as well, but she came from men's sports. A lot of her reference points and mentors are in men's sports. And there are folks who have alleged, and I have no idea if they have any factual evidence behind this, but that they believe she's working toward a return to a high profile job in men's sports. Everyone thinks she's angling for the NHL for whatever reason. That's
just what's out there. I have never had a conversation with her about that. And then you look at some of the really powerful emerging leaders in women's sport, like Jess Smith from the Valkyries. Totally when interviewed at every turn, when they say you're going to be running the NFL, she says, I don't want to. Yes, I want to run women's sports. I want to do that in the
women's space. And again, I don't think anyone's asked jess Berman that directly, so I don't want to mischaracterize anything but it is interesting to your point, which ones are veering toward. How do we do this differently while learning from existing leagues versus how do we compare to the things that make the most money, even though they're at times at odds with the very center of who we are and what we stand for, especially what our fans
stand for. For those who missed it, by the way, the quote that Meg was referring to, jess Coberman and the NASCL commissioner told Forbes quote, if you're a business person and you look at sports investment as an asset class, I do not actually see a world where it could be justifiably viewed through the lens of DEI and social cause.
It is the same fundamental business as the men's leagues, who have achieved incredible growth via the same exact investments and revenue streams that we've already begun to tap and in many ways remain untapped. And I think that's why you're seeing the valuations continue to be validated. End quote. Now that might be a message to investors that even during the time of Trump, this is a good investment
because we don't rely on social issues. We are a league that is independent of that and even if we're being criticized or held back by the powers that be, we'll still be fine. That's probably best, most generous version of that. The other version is why are we running away from the thing that has often been what drives interest and support for women's sports. We'll have to have that conversation another time, because we're running out of time tomorrow.
Before I we'll let you go, though I wanted to ask the same thing of you. What are you excited about and what has you concerned?
I'm excited about the increased globalization of the NWSL. I think once teams were given more space to bring in players from outside the US, the game got a lot more fun because now you have different game styles, you have different objectives, especially on the player side, but even I mean it's not as new to see this on the manager side, but I think that when we get more players from Asia, from Europe, from Africa, from South America, from the Caribbean, the game just gets richer because it
was always meant to be played in this sort of globalized, diverse way. My concern is to sort of pick up from where the two of you left off in terms of investment and who is paying attention to the end
of your cell, who's interested in getting involved. You know, we're not going to be under a Trump administration forever, and I just have questions about I mean, God willing everything right, knock on all the woods, but I am concerned about the people who are getting involved right now what that's going to look like in the long run. I think that there is a very understandable sensitivity toward any time that the end of USL is mentioned in
context or comparison to any sort of men's sport. And I think right now feels very much like an inflection point where we're going to see those divergences between people who are involved in the Indigo cell because they want to work in women's sports and those who are drawn to the power or even the stepping stone that this might provide to get back into men's sports at a
higher level. I think we're going to get to a point where we won't be able to ignore who's choosing which path, which I think is a good thing, because you want to know what you're signing up for, and if you have an owner, if you have a GM, if you have a coach who is just viewing this as this sort of self contained stepping stone for them professionally. It's going to become clear because I think we're going to see that reflected in the table, We're going to
see that reflected in investment. We're going to see that reflected into the success of these teams, which of course is going to lead to revenue down the line. And I think that's a good thing, because I'd rather know what people are about from jump rather than having to find out the hard way. So it's a concern, but refreshing kind of I think.
So my concern is the same as yours, and I think it also ends up rolling out to decision making down the line if you end up getting too many people in there that are about either the stepping stone or just about not quite having the money to be a pro men's owner, but having the money to be in the women's game, and then having their morals and ideas and principles reflected in that team, and the way it affects the league. I think the growing pains are
the thing that concerns me most. We want investment, we want women to get paid, we want the league to be successful, and we want our cake and eat it too. And have it still be a league that we feel aligned with and represents us in our values. And that's hard. There's just not a lot of cool rich people. They're honest, good rich people.
Yeah, that's what I cool.
Good, Yeah, kind, well meaning. The people who become billionaires become them for a reason. There's like a couple that are probably okay, and the rest of them like weren't cool with many millions, why you have to ask that question, why did you need more than that? And how are you ever going to reconcile that with the kind of things that this league and women's sports kind of stand for.
Yeah, I do think it is really interesting. Just I think just the the end of you cell in general, right, and supporters in general, do have this true desire to want end of you sell owners to be you know, value aligned, sort of morally good, and that those days were never present in the league, right, Like, that's the part of the problem, is we the end of your cell never had and then I think there was that kind of over correction and now as the money flows in, right,
it's just it's not possible, and so there has to be a line of a you know, reading owners like a Michelle Kang right in good faith because I do think based on every interaction, Yes, she is rich, she has a lot of money. She is so many gruithless like great fashion right, like she is ruthless. I think she is good, well intentioned, but like not above critique, right, and like she's not going to get everything right. She's not going to do stuff that every fan agrees with
all of the time. And so you like you just have to have a whole bunch of things be true at the same time, and that when it comes to ownership, it's just really it's really hard to grapple with.
And I try to keep myself always full of questions instead of just definitive feelings, because I guarantee that some of these folks would say, if you came into a room and now you gave me five hours to explain to you, why can't be exactly what you want all the time and also get the money and the players and the stadium and the things that you want, you might understand it a little more. That's not a release
to be a terrible person and make terrible things. But there is that balance of like sometimes the people that are successful, they do have to have a give and take with stuff that those of us who don't want to be put in those positions and making those decisions
would be unwilling to make. And you know, oh my god, there's so much more I want to talk about, because now you brought up the fact that Michelle Kank's coach is going to a different Michelle Kank King and we never got to talk about that, and we never got to talk about whether Emma Hayes has a particular ie for folks that are playing in European leagues instead of American and that's why she's playing them a little bit more. But we'll have to have you back, so thank you
so much for the time. I always love catching up with both of you. Everybody, of course already is listening to Full Time with Meg Glenham, but if they aren't, what the hell are you doing? You could be listening to this once a week and sometimes more, depending on if you listen to the other elements of the podcast that come out every Monday, which I always listen to. But yeah, thank you so much for coming out, Thanks for having us. We got to take another break when
we come back. We take credit for the WNBA's newest viewer, stick around, Welcome back, slicas. We love that you're listening, but we want you to get in the game every day too, So here's our good game play of the day. Listen to Wednesday's episode of Full Time with Meglenahan called is Michelle Kang's multi club ownership good for women's soccer?
As you could tell, there was so much I wanted to talk to Megan Tamaherr about, and as I mentioned, the news that the Washington Spirits head coach Jonathan Heraldaz is headed to another of Michelle Kank's teams, ohel Leon was one of those things I wanted to talk about. So I guess instead of listening to me ask Megan Tamayor about it, go listen to them discuss it on their pod. Instead. We'll link to that episode in the
show notes. And we always love to hear from you, so hit us up on email good game at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two oh four fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review, y'all. It's real easy. Just take it from these slices who didn't forget and who left us five stars. Jay Bing five one two wrote, quote nailing it. I've been a fan of Sarah's work for a long
time and was psyched to see this pod. This team's attention to detail and intersectional lens make this an essential and fun listen for any women's sports fan. Thank you or l Robinson ten thirty, who said, quote my favorite sports show. I've listened to many podcasts about my favorite sports teams over the years, but this one does an amazing job at pulling me into leagues I'm not even familiar with. I've been a big NWSL fan, but this year I've enjoyed watching the p WHL and look forward
to watching my first season of the WNBA. End quote. Ah, we love a WNBA virgin. Enjoy the ride, El Robinson, and thanks to both of you for writing in. Now it's your turn slices. If you haven't done it yet, come on rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good game, Good game, Tamara, You rich people that aren't cool or kind? Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
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