Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where after two days spent at the luxurious O High Valley in We've decided to move permanently to OHI, raise some horses and make olive oil.
Somebody ship my dogs and husband.
On today's show, we talked to Chicago Sky Center and WNBA Players Association Executive Committee.
Member Elizabeth Williams about what's.
At stake in the next CBA, why the union decided to opt out, and what players expect from journalists who covered the league. We'll get you caught up on all the latest headlines tomorrow, but today is all about our Elizabeth interview.
It's coming up right after this joining us now.
She's a forward for the Chicago Sky of the WNBA. After immigrating from England, she played college ball at Duke. Was drafted by the Connecticut Sun fourth overall in twenty fifteen and was traded to Atlanta the next year. She played for the Dream from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty one, spent a season with the Mystics, then joined the Sky in twenty twenty three. She was the twenty sixteen WNBA Most Improved Player and an All start in twenty seventeen.
She's the secretary of the WNBA Players Association Executive Committee.
She's played in Turkey, China and Russia.
She helped kick Kelly Loaffler's butt to the curb, elect Raphaele Warnock and flip the freak and said it it's Elizabeth Williams.
What's up, Elizabeth, what's up.
That's quite the intro, Thank you.
It's quite the resume, especially that last part.
I want to get to that later, but I want to start with an impressive ten years in the w Now you have seen it change dramatically from your rookie season to this year, and I'm really excited to pick your brain about a whole bunch of stuff. But I want to start with the biggest news of the week, besides the liberty winning at all, of course, the WNBA electing to opt out of the current CBA. I want you to take us behind the scenes of the executive committee.
When did the conversations about opting out really get going in earnest.
Yeah, I mean, honestly, those conversations start pretty early. I mean, coming into last season, we started having some of the conversations because you know, you're saying, okay, at the end of next season, a decision has to be made, and then I would probably just say, you know, after All Star break is when we really like rep the engine as far as having more conversations and more phone calls.
We also met with advisors at All Stars, so also was a good opportunity when all the players were around for us to communicate about, you know, what an opt out could look like, what our advisory team could look like. And so, you know, after All Star Break, I think that's when you know, the real conversations were at.
What are some of the priorities for the players when you're heading into negotiations.
Salary is probably the biggest one, just because when you think about the growth of our league, you know, the viewership has grown, Jersey sales have grown, all of those things, ticket sales, all that stuff, but the salaries haven't grown as well. So that's probably the first, like big ticket item. But in general, just you know, improving and having minimum standards for practice facilities, game facilities, and charter flights is
another big one. I think a lot of people you know, saw that we got charter flights this year, but you know that's not currently in our CBA. It's nothing on paper. It's really just Kathy saying, you know, we've allocated these funds to charters, and it's like, okay, well we need to see that in writing if we're going to keep very smart forward. So, yeah, those are probably the top three, but I mean there are so many others, and yeah, so there's there's a lot of conversations we had.
I think for the most part, barring trolls and morons, we've gotten past the idiotic conversation around WNBA players asking for the same dollars as NBA players. Everybody understands that's not a financial reality for the league. Yet we've gotten to revenue share, which is usually what we're pointing to now when the players are asking for a larger percentage of what the league is making.
There's a cop iplication.
There, and that the WNBA controls forty two percent of its cap table, the NBA controls forty two percent, and then an investment group that was part of this capital race a couple of years ago owns the remaining sixteen percent. So less than half of the revenue of the league doesn't flow directly back to the league itself. How does that impact the w's ability to increase the revenue percentage
that goes to players even if they want to. Are they limited in their ability to give the players what they want sometimes as a result of that structure.
Oh slightly.
But fortunately with negotiating a new CBA, you can also change that structure. Like, we have a lot of flexibility in negotiating what that structure looks like. Now you know we can model based on other cbas. So I think, you know, we're cautiously optimistic in what that new revenue model could look like. And I think it's important to, you know, realize, for a league to be in existence for almost thirty years, like everything can't be failing, right,
everything can't be gone I's wrong. So there are things that are increasing and there are ways that we can maximize that as players.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard that we're constantly talking about WNBA teams losing money and we completely ignore that NBA teams report losses regularly. The NETS loss fifty to one hundred million dollars in twenty twenty two. And the reason I have those generic numbers that are fifty million dollars up or down is because there's not a lot of transparency how difficult is it for y'all when there isn't a lot of transparency, at least publicly for us to really understand dollars in and out.
It is very difficult. It's hard for us, hard for the advisors, and we're obviously going to ask for transparency for this negotiation process to go well. And I think when it comes to like yearly losses, it's it's funny that people consider it for us and not for you know, the MBA teams because in reality, you know, these owners of NBA teams are still owning those teams, which means,
you know, the franchise values are going up. Like those are things that the millionaires and billionaires are considering that I think a lot of like the layperson doesn't consider when it comes to owning sports teams. And so we have all of these things in our mind in you know, trying to make sure that we're negotiating on our behalf.
Yeah.
Part of the reason the current CBA is no longer a fit and needs to be renegotiated a couple years in advance is because of the tremendous growth in recent years and especially this season, record attendance, viewership, merch sales. Interest in the league is exploding, which is positive, but with that comes from growing pains. How much of the increase in toxicity, the unhinged comments and unhinged commentary did you expect coming to this season, and how much of it came as a surprise.
I mean, it's like how I see it, Like we've always kind of had the trolls, but I think it's changed from like stay in the kitchen. Now you guys are asking for too much, So it's like, Okay, well now you're watching. I guess you know, like like the trolls have always existed, but yeah, it's it's been way more intense, way more misogynistic, racist, like all those things. I mean, I think any player in this league could show you their DMS and people would be very surprised
by the stuff they see. And I mean part of it is like just you know, the narratives around the rookie class. Part of it is the intense sports betting and how people just like bet with no sense and no regard for the humanity of players or.
Their own bank accounts or their own bank accounts, like those are very problematic things.
So that entire combination was not ideal, but at the end of the day, the numb like having you know, an increase in viewership is important, and I mean, I think there are some people that did consider the league before that have become true fans, and so you know, we try to focus on those people and not let the negativity, you know, drive the narrative, because at the end of the day, there's I mean, amazing players that are in now, amazing players that are going to come in,
and you know, as someone who's part of the ec like, that's what you anticipate in negotiating, you're negotiating for the future as well.
We got to take a quick break. Don't move a muscle. You know.
It's interesting the beginning of the league, there were high profiles men predominantly in sports that were used in the WNBA as a punchline. Then the league settled in and they started to just sort of ignore it, which wasn't good, but at least didn't contribute. And then this year it's like these high profile voices came back around to pay attention but didn't do the work to understand the league, didn't contribute to conversations a lot of meaningful ways, and
actually contributed to some of the toxicity. So you've got what you said, which is like, we've always had trolls, but now we've got these super high profile voices with a big audience that were elevating and repeating narratives that were created by the trolls because they weren't doing the work and they weren't understanding the nuance. So they were creating or building off of stories that weren't vetted or coming from the right place. And I think that's what
made it really challenging. I wonder we talked about on this show a couple different times how in the past, when the league itself or society wasn't getting something right, oftentimes the players of the W were the ones that came together and said, let's put our heads together and do something about it. I talked about kicking Kelly Loffler to the curb and helping change the Senate. That was like something that the W players came together, you included to do.
I was a little bit surprised.
That this season the league or the player didn't have more of a plan in advance, seeing the Caitlin Clark Angelry stuff coming down the pike and anticipating how that might continue to build and grow in snowball during the season. Have the players spoken behind the scenes about changing this season's environment or being able to change things going toward next year.
Yeah, it's tough.
I mean, I think we anticipated some of it, but not all of it. And I think they're the media has a duty, especially you know, the higher profile people in the media that hadn't necessarily covered the league before. I think they do have an obligation to report fairly. Like that's part of, you know, the integrity of being in the media space. And I don't think that always happened, And so for us, I think as players, it's like
what can we do? I mean, we have to answer questions, like we have to be available and we can be as.
Respectful as possible.
I think there was definitely a disconnect in you know, how we communicate that we're frustrated and bothered by some of the things that are happening, but also, you know, we still want to show who we are and be you know.
Respectful athletes. But yeah, I also.
Think that things snowballed in a way that players didn't really have a lot of control over. And I think that that is where the league kind of had more of the duty than us, Like, realistically, our duty is to play and to put a good product out and other people write the stories.
You know.
The reason we had that conversation was actually because we were just so used to oftentimes players being failed by the teams and leagues and having to step up. It was really after Kathy Engelbert's sort of fumbling of the question about the increase in toxicity and sort of spinning it into a positive around a rivalry, that we started to think, if leadership isn't going to be able to handle the enormity of this situation, it might come down to the players. So absolutely, your job is to play
and not to have to deal with all that. You've just got such a good resume of doing the big things and handling the big things.
And I think that's why we were all like, the players will fix it, they'll.
Bigure something out.
But I also think that's why we ended up with that statement towards the end of the season that Terry put out like that was absolutely backed by player leadership. She was just, you know, the person who signed off on it. But it was kind of like the Christine
Brennan situation was kind of the last straw. It wasn't solely about her, but it just, you know, happened to be her in this situation and how things had gone on over the season, and that was I mean, but as to what you're saying, it probably came too late, and so I think that's why that situation got the feedback that it did, because it's like, why didn't this come sooner? But it's also like it shouldn't have had to come period, but players still felt like something had to be said.
Yeah, the PA issued a statement about the work of Christine Brennan, particularly the interview with Djna Carrington about the incidental conduct she had with Kitlyn Clark in a playoff game. I'm wondering, you know, when the PA decided to put
out that statement specifically Abrett Brennan. Were there also other outlets or journalists that contributed to these larger issues that you felt you wanted to speak on and felt like you couldn't before or My impression was that there was an expectation of Christine that you wouldn't have for some other outlets who will not be named on this show because I don't want anyone giving them clicks or going to look at them, but ones that you sort of
expect that are shit posting that it never respected women, will never respect women, aren't attempting to do a good coverage, and in my opinion, is always best to ignore them and let them yell at the wall or the five people that they have paying attention. Is that why Christine was centered, because I imagine there's plenty of other outlets or people that kind of didn't do right by the work that was required to cover the team and the league this year too.
Yeah, definitely, I think that was the bigger issue, you know, like you have expectations for certain people in the media, and I think just because of how everything was handled, we were bothered that it came from her, because, like we mentioned earlier in the show, there are people that haven't necessarily watched or covered women's basketball extensively and use us as punchlines before and are now trying to spin the block, whereas she's someone who's kind of seen it
all and got caught up in narratives, you know, and it's like, Okay, this is someone that we should be trusting to cover as.
Properly right and there's a weight to what she says. Because of her tenure speaking for women and fighting for women, people will assume that it's coming from a place that's educated and informed, and so when it furthers certain narratives, it hits different than someone that you're sort of.
Like, Ah, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
He just got here. Yeah.
You know, you and I spoke a couple of weeks ago, and you said that the players can handle tough journalism. You can handle professional questions, you can handle being challenged. You don't want reporters to be fans or sick of fans. You understand that the growth of the league and growing women's sports means covering them like sports and not just cheerleading. Do you think that some folks have the wrong idea about what players are asking for when it comes to coverage.
Yeah, so I think that people do generally have the wrong idea on how we respond to criticism and proper journalism.
I think for us in twenty twenty, to.
Literally wear vote warn oct shirts and influence an election, we're pretty much built for anything. Because that's kind of the highest level of influence and controls and of difficult conversations. So yeah, I think we're open to all of it, and you know, growth definitely comes with that.
Yeah. I mean at espnW, which I've been working on for fourteen years, we understood that a pivot was necessary. At the beginning of our work, it was really about supporting, spotlighting, highlighting women athletes, and there was a moment where we said, Okay, we got to really start to be covering these athletes in these leagues and these teams with the same critical eye that we do mends.
That's how you advance it.
And it feels like the w players understand that this exponential growth is huge and with it will come more criticism, more eyeballs, more people call in for someone to get benched or fired or whatever it is. And that's fine if it's done with an understanding and a nuanced respect for the players in the league itself. And I would assume that a lot of you, very very very smart,
multifaceted people would actually welcome that. I actually think it's interesting to see the league covered in a way that feels more professional.
Yeah, definitely, and I think the discourse would for the most part reflect that. I think Briana Turner has the funniest tweets, and she made a joke like because somebody was talking about her minutes or something, and she's like, at least this is the conversation I'd rather have, is an he's talking about you know what I look at like her, you know, So it's like we'll welcome those for sure.
That's what I always I'm like, if someone disagrees with my sports takes, bring it on. It's like, why does it always come back to like you're ugly, you're fat or whatever, you shouldn't even be here, Like, let's just
argue about the shit I'm talking about. Yeah, have there been you know, conversations about how over the years access has changed and whether that's impacted the relationships you can have with reporters to make those conversations more informed and better, because I know the w move journalists out of locker rooms and into other spaces for interviews.
We had a long time baseball.
Journalist on the show, Melissa Lucky, helped fight for women to actually get access to locker rooms, and we asked her about some of that in the changing space, and she said she understands the desire to give athletes their own space understands that there's you know, that sort of special space just for the athletes, but she also said there's nowhere like a locker room to get the good stuff, the relationships, the vibes, the honesty, and to truly tell the story of a team.
What's your response to that.
Yeah, So I've been been in the league a while, so I remember when the locker room was open, and I remember when it was closed, and I think just the changing dynamic of players as well and what they're comfortable with, you might not see the same results of opening the locker room as you did in the past. And so I think we have done a good job of,
you know, making ourselves available to media. Just outside the locker room, we're available, you know, pregame shoot around, Like there are more times that were available that weren't before. So I could see how before it's like, oh yeah, I definitely need to get in the locker room, whereas now it's like I have so many different opportunities to see the players on the court, you know, last fifteen minutes to shoot around and then talk to them, not
necessarily in our space. So yeah, I'm definitely a fan of keeping the locker room closed and still having a good line of communication with with our reporters.
Yeah, and it's it's slightly different when newspapers ruled the day and that's where you had to go to get information. It was so based on deadline and really you almost had to hold players captive immediately after the game ended and as quickly as possible get folks in. That still exists and a lot of people want to turn their nose about that, but newspapers still have a pretty big role.
And same with television. Television wanting to get in there and then immediately be able to have an after show or a post show where they're showing pressers, they're doing interviews, they're turning around clips. So as someone who's been in locker rooms, I totally get that. I also covered teams like the Chicago Cubs when Milton Bradley was on the team, and he would try to hide in the shower and stay in there until the time had passed and not
talk to anyone. So like, it didn't fix all the problems, but it did fix a little bit people who were reticent to speak or would try to get around the.
Necessity of engaging with journalists.
And I know a lot of people who don't like the media will say that's their prerogative, but I always say, like, part of the reason that you get to be paid a lot as a pro athlete is that your stuff is covered by TV and TV rights deals and so like that's part of the game, is like, you know, being in a relationship with journalists. So I'm torn on this because there's also a lot of creepers in the
WNBA and women's sports in general. There are people, and we learned this this season, even from the very beginning with Greg Doyle and Caitlin Clark and the dumb hearthands. People do not know how to behave around women, and so I respect that it is a very different thing to be in a woman's space as a male journalist,
particularly not all men or just men. I'm sure there are some creepy women too, but yeah, I mean, I think it's going to be a continuing conversation, and the w is a place that shows that that is a conversation between the league and its players. And now the NFL is reaching out to the w to ask about that practice and seeing whether they will embrace it. So I think ultimately it ends up just being a mutual respect.
Do you find that you're able to get to know newer media members despite them not being able to just have that time and space to communicause that's one of the things that reporters have said. If they can't just have some side chat with you, that's not for a story, it's hard for them to create a relationship so that if something tough comes up, they can come to you with it.
Yeah.
No, I mean they're they're definitely around enough that you can have conversations with them. I think again, closing the locker room but still opening up the availability allowed for extra time for them to just be around period.
So that's also.
Why I'm like, we have to be available even if we're not like quote unquote on the record, like they're around, so you start to see familiar faces and get more comfortable with people, for sure.
Do you have a message to newbies to the league, whether they've just been assigned and listen, there's I think some pretty broad strokes being used for people who are new Some of them are people who just needed to get paid in order to cover the team or the league, right, and like now that there are newspapers and outlets actually paying for those jobs. Great, awesome, Welcome to the w Do your research and show up and be great and
we'll be super welcome. Do you have any ideas or tips for them on getting to know players in the league and contributing to the coverage in a good positive way.
Just don't be creepy a good start.
We have a show title with Elizabeth Williams.
Just just show that you're informed, Like, actually this is because I was watching ear League. It made me think of this, But like, have an awareness if you know players have played overseas or you know, asking about those seasons, like those little things show that you have a level of interest in the woman's game. That might make us relax a little bit and say, Okay, Like this person is doing their research, they care, they want to get to know more, and I'm more likely to disclose like,
oh yeah, I played for this team. I played Like a lot of questions were about me playing with Marina last year overseas and then bringing that into Chicago, right, So, like having just an extra knowledge about where players are coming from and what they want to bring. I think it brings our guard down a little bit.
I love that, Gosh, I look forward to the soliloquies we're going to get from reporters now, dropping all of your knowledge before they get to a like yes or no question, just to prove that they've got their credentials. Elizabeth, so great to talk to you. Thank you for the time. Enjoy overseas. You're in Spain.
Now, Yeah, but this is just for vacation, so oh fun, kind of a nice yeah, just chilling.
Thanks so much to Elizabeth for taking the time, especially since she was chatting with us from out in Spain.
We got to take another quick break.
But when we come back, a feel good story.
Welcome Backslices. We love that you're listening, but we want you to get in the.
Game every day too. So here's our good game play of the day. It's actually more of a gift from us to you in the form of feel good progress and inspiration. This is the thirteenth year of the Global Sports Mentoring Program the GSMP, a collaboration between espnW and the US State Department that harnesses the pop positive power of sport and mentorship to connect accomplished women leaders from around the world with female executives at leading organizations.
In the US.
Over its thirteen years, the program has created a global network of over one hundred and seventy five women from seventy plus countries who support efforts to expand access to education, economic equity, and societal opportunity and inclusion through sports now.
I had the honor of hosting the tenth anniversary celebration of the GSMP in DC a few years ago with Billy Jean King and First Lady Jill Biden, plus a collection of GSMP alums from years past and every year at the espnW Summit, the current delegates arrived to kick off their time in the States, start their mentorships, wear the traditional garb of their country to get on stage and share how they're using sports to make change back home.
These women are making a difference from advocating for social welfare policy in Brazil to using boxing to teach life skills and self defense to Kenyan women and girls. This is a truly powerful and inspiring program and I promise you will not be able to stop smiling watching them start their journey and talk about what they plann to do with their time here in the States. You can watch the video of the twenty twenty four delegates on stage at this year's espnW Summit will put the link
in our show notes. We always love to hear from you, so to hit us up on email Good game at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two o four fifty seventy and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review and tell your friends too too.
Like producer Alex Alex review something.
When this podcast becomes so intertwined with your life that you almost say you to people in real life. Rating three out of five bleeps review. I recently joined a tennis league, meaning I played doubles on the regular. Now it's a super fun, read non competitive league, but every week I almost get myself in trouble. That's because at the end of every match, we all shake hands in tap rackets, and that's when what should be a nice
moment of sportsmanship becomes dangerous. Picture me turning to my doubles partner, usually at RANDO that I met just one hour earlier, in saying good game, and then approaching the net to repeat the phrase good game to whichever opponent is closest to me. And that's when I feel the words forming in my mouth. A nice, hearty you right on the tip of my tongue, ready to land on unlucky opponent number two, who did nothing except ace my beginner asked about half a dozen times. Don't say it,
don't say it. I find myself thinking it's gotten to the point where the post match handshake is way more stressful than the match itself. So if I get kicked out of my doubles, leak for cursing opponents. All you slices that are have my back.
I love that.
You know I got you, l I got you. I could take those tennis ladies.
Now it's your turn. Slices, Rate and review. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow. Good Game, Elizabeth, Good Game.
Unions You Accidental Fuse.
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Meat Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and Lindsay Craterwell.
Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain.