Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we've decided it's time to stop discriminating against men from here on out. This is a sports podcast, and by sports, of course,
I mean men's sports. It's Tuesday, April first, Yup, April first, and on today's show, we'll be talking to women's hoops coaching legend Kathy Delaney Smith about her forty seasons leading the team at Harvard their legendary sixteen seed over one seed tournament upset, incorporating meditation into her coaching, and how to apply her act as if attitude, plus locking up a ticket to Italy, deciding whether to go pro, and a big announcement about having nothing to announce. It's all
coming up right after this Welcome back slices. Here's what you need to know today, starting with college hoops first, we're recording this before the final Elite Eight games between USC and Yukon and TCU and Texas on Monday night to make sure we get you all caught up on those contests, plus the Final four picture later this week. In the meantime, a few players still have big decisions to make with the WNBA draft looming, and that includes
LSU's Flage Johnson. After LSU lost to UCLA on Sunday, the junior guard said she wasn't sure if she'd be entering the WNBA Draft this spring. While Johnson still has another year of college eligibility, she turns twenty two this November, meaning she's eligible to enter the draft this year despite not having completed four years of college. Johnson says she plans to talk to both her family and LSU coach
Kim Mulki before making the decision. Elsewhere in college hoops, Iowa state star Audie Crooks announced that she isn't going anywhere. After the number eleven Cyclones were ousted by number six
Michigan in the first round of March Madness. Lots of fans wondered whether the six foot three sophomore might enter the transfer portal, but on Sunday, Crooks put those concerns to rest, writing on Instagram, quote, Dear Cyclone Nation, thank you to all the coaches and fans that have supported me on this journey after much thought and consideration, Quit
asking I am right where I want to be. Let's run it back hashtag loyal Forever true end quote, and Crook's teammate Addie Brown will be right there with her writing on Instagram quote write where I need to be end quote to the PWHL. The Montreal Victoire announced on Monday that goaltender and Renee Deben has been placed on long term injury reserve. Debn suffered a lower body injury
in a March eighteenth game against the Boston Fleet. General manager Danielle Sovajo expressed optimism that Debn could be back before the end of the season, saying in a statement, the results from the medical exams following her injury are encouraging and we expect her to return in the near future. This type of injury will require weekly, if not daily, follow ups. Montreal has already clinched a spot in the PWHL playoffs and is currently on top of the league
standings among qualified goalies. Deben leads the league this season in both say percentage and goals against average. To snowboarding, Chloe Kim won her third halfpipe World Championship title of the weekend to mathematically clinch a spot on her third Olympic team. The two time Olympic gold medalist has the chance to become the first snowboarder to win three straight
gold medals at next winners Olympics in Italy. The world title puts a nice button on Kim's season, which also saw her become the first woman to land a double cork ten eighty in competition and win yet another X Games title. To the US Canada Trade War of the soccer variety, the Chicago Stars announced that the club is loaning forward Sarah Griffith to the Calgary Wild of the
Canadian Northern Super League aka the NSL. Griffith, who hails from Chicago, was drafted by the Stars in twenty twenty two and appeared in seven matches for the club last year. Now she'll help the NFL launch its inaugural season. Related if anyone knows any podcast host loan programs that would take this Chicagoan up north for a couple of years, hit me up that might become necessary. Finally, one last
piece of news. After fifty plus years in basketball coaching, including thirty nine c seas as head coach at DePaul University with a seven hundred and eighty six and four oh five record, the legendary Doug Bruno is stepping down. He'll assume a role of special assistant to the vice
president slash director of athletics for women's basketball. Bruno first coached De Paul in nineteen seventy six, left two years later to coach the Chicago Hustle of the Women's Professional Basketball League until nineteen eighty, and then, after some time in the men's game, returned to De Paul women's basketball in nineteen eighty eight, where he was the head coach until his announced retirement at the end of this season.
He's the winningest coach in De Paul hoop's history, passing Hall of Fame men's coach Ray Meyer back in twenty twenty.
He was an assistant for Team USA from twenty nine to sixteen, helping them to their fifth and sixth straight Olympic Golds in twenty twelve and twenty sixteen, and his Doug Bruno girls basketball camps were game changers for generations of Hoopers, including yours truly, said Yukon head coach Gino Oriama of Bruno, quote, there haven't been a lot of people in the history of women's basketball that have given as much to the game as he has end quote. Congrats on a hell of a runt coach. We got
to take a quick break when we come back. It's Kathy Delaney Smith. We caught up with her last week ahead of the Sweet sixteen joining us now. She was a legendary high school coach before spending forty seasons as head coach of the women's basketball team at Harvard University. In nineteen ninety eight, she led the Crimson to the first and still only number sixteen up set of a
number one seed in the NCAA Women's Basketball Tournament. Owner of over six hundred wins, the first woman named the Massachusetts Basketball Coaches Hall of Fame, and the namesake of an annual national award presented by her Hoopstats to the top D one mid major head coach, the Kathy Delaney Smith Mid Major Coach of the Year Award. The author of GrITT and Wit, Empowering Lives and Leaders, a cancer survivor, and a big part of the reason Harvard women's hoops
is seventy eight and fourteen all time against my alma mater, Cornell. Woof. It's Kathy Delaney Smith. Hi, Kathy, and thank you very little for that.
I'm thrilled beyond and I'm sorry about Cornell.
Man. I tried to find a good stat to get back at you with, and there aren't very many. They have a one in forty five away record against Harvard oh out.
However, Danis Smith, who did twenty eight or nine or thirty years there, one of my favorite tremendous coach, so you know I loved her.
Yeah, I will say we did our best. I want to go back to the beginning, Kathy, because I just love your origin story. You grew up in Newton, mass You became the first female basketball player in Massachusetts history to score a thousand points. But then you went to college at Bridgewater State, which at the time didn't have varsity basketball for women, so you competed on the synchronized swimming team. Of course, it was the only competitive option
for female swimmers at the time. But this is important because then you wanted to become a swim coach, and you were looking to become a swim coach when you stumbled into coaching basketball. So tell us how you ended up coaching at Westwood High which is just a few miles away from where you.
Okay, well, I did go to Bridgewater with superintendent's son, John Tobin and had a mad crush on him. Just throw that out there, and I was in my interview trying desperately to get the job because they had a brand new pool this yeah, at westwod High School, and I want to just start their swim program. And the superintendent said, you know, can you coach basketball and win? Our team is not good? His daughter played for the team. He wasn't that good either, and that's the first time
I've ever publicly said that. But he said, can you win? And I said, yes, of course I can. And then I because I wanted the job, and I got the job, and I was zero and eleven that first year, so I guess I yes, I didn't do a great jo. I didn't read enough basketball books. I hadn't played, so I played six player for my mother. Can't dribble. You know, it's not even the same game.
Right, That's what I was going to say. A lot of people don't even know that it started out as six on six for women's without dribbling. And you still that's where you got your thousand points.
Yes, and my mother was my coach, So yeah, everyone gets mad when I'm not proud of that, although I should be, but because I can shoot. Yeah, but you know, it's not real basketball.
It's very different. So you you played six on six, but now you're coaching five on five. You mentioned you went oh and eleven in the first season, but then over the next eleven years you led that team to six undefeated seasons, including a one hundred game win streak, a two hundred and four and thirty one record, and a state championship. So how do we get from I don't know what I'm doing to that? How did you teach yourself to be a great coach?
I read every book and went to every clinic I could go to. And the reason I wrote the book Brittin Went was because you know, there are so many women who fight there having a consistent level of confidence, and so my story is really, if I can do it, anyone could do it. So and I just you know, you have to work hard, and you have to have a passion, and you have to love what you're doing. And I did. I just love basketball, and I retire.
I was undefeated in swimming, by the way, I went seven years and never lost a meat WOA, And I would say I had great divers that I didn't teach, so I would probably can't take credit for it, but Nonetheless, I am undefeated in swimming and fell in love with basketball.
Yeah, as a coacher saying in swimming, yeah, as a coach. Well, you know you're talking about the book. We're going to get more into the book later, but I think that what you're getting at is super important, especially as we're looking at numbers of women coaches or women stepping up for opportunities that have been either held predominantly by men or that are now being taken over by men now
that there's more pay in the space. Do you have a message for women who feel like they have to be an expert or they have to know it all before saying yes, you're a prime example of someone who said yes and then said okay, I'll figure it out.
Yeah. You just described, unfortunately, a characteristic of women that's very widespread and almost a disease. I coached at Harvard for forty years, and the women I coached, we you know,
a WHUSU. They're brilliant, and yet even in my last four or five years, my student athletes would say, sometimes we're afraid to raise our hand in class because we don't have the right answer, and we're not going to raise our hand unless we're perfect, and you're surrounded by men who really don't even care if they're close to right as long as they're heard. And so you know, not that I want to swing the pendulum all the way to the way men are, but women have to
understand perfect is boring. And that's a chapter in my book. No.
I got to read that one.
When we learned to stop trying to be perfect, We learned we can live life and then you can be great. Yeah, great, gro faster.
Yeah, I've been I think the universe is sending me a message because I am been hammered with this for the last like about four months. Is like this repetition of like do bigger, swing bigger, try bigger, so that if you fail, it's totally fine, but at least you know where the limit is. So many of us are so worried about failing that we don't even find out where our limits are. That's such a good mess. I
got to read your book. Okay, while you were at Westwood, you filed four Title nine lawsuits while you were a coach there. This is inspiring and instructive because I think a lot of people feel like that's so hard to do from within a space, but you challenged the school to do better while remaining in good standing there and keeping your job. How did you do that well?
Because I was glueless and passionate, and I was raised to believe, you know, women and men are the same and you can do anything. I've never been one who's been funneled into a stereotype. I've never been very traditional. So I got to Westwood and the uniforms were awful, the budgets were awful, the practice times are awful, and I was shocked. I was like, what's going on here? And Title nine had just passed, so I, you know,
I never really thought about the consequences to me. And people said you'll never get a job and everyone will hate you, and it didn't really matter to me. It was it was the right thing for us to have practice times and not where the field hockey kills for the basketball.
Team makes no sense, right, no, so and it.
Worked and they know it went. I got everything I wanted, all right.
The important thing, too, is it's not just that it was the right thing, but the legal thing. And we need to use Title nine as long as we have it, and we need to use it more than we are to make sure people are in compliance, because it is the law. You actually coached my friend Jackie McMullen, who went on to be not just a great hooper but a legendary sports writer and an opponent of mine for years on around the Horn, who gave me great advice and mentored me in a lot of ways. So what
was Jackie like as a high school kid? Could you see future Jackie in there?
Yes, Jackie? So Jackie wrote the Fluid in my book. Yeah it I cried when I read it. I mean because I think her writing is off the charts and her memory is very different than my memory. But like she's she's so special. She's a pioneer. She's broken through Glassdale, as everyone knows. And I like to finally say, she didn't know how to write to I coached her. That's but so far that's work for We have stayed very
very close friends. And she's just she's a fighter. She's passionate, she's confident, yet inside she sort of still deals with what we all deal with is some insecurities on this level. Although you know, and she's just such a hard worker that you know she's gonna make gold out of anything. She tried. That's just that good.
I'm always fascinated by this because there are a lot of ways when I look back to myself as a young person and I'm like, oh, there, I was already me in so many ways, right, you know, I was
to your point about title nine. I was petitioning my school to be able to take pass failed gym before school because I was achieving all the things that the law required of gym class by my three varsity sports, and it was taking up a class in my school day that I wanted for band and course, and I already didn't have a lunch and why am I going to pe class? And so I filed report with the school and demanded that I should be allowed to take it before like all this Like I'm like, who is
that kid? It's me And I was always in there. But I wonder how often you're coaching and you instead see someone maybe you're delighted to find that they become a very different person later in life. How often do the kids you coached in high school come back and you're like, you are so different than the kid that you were.
Yeah, I mean I I was one of those people that just loved my I was loved being a high school teacher and coach and never even wanted to go to college. And then I arrived at Harvard. And I grew up near Harvard and had this really ugly opinion of Harvard, like they're entitled, they're white, they're rich.
They're they're not Cornell.
Yeah, yeah, they don't like, they're not good to women and blah blah, and they're not quite nice. But it was the opposite of that. And so the women I got at Harvard, probably one of my greatest satisfactions is they changed so much from when they're freshmen too when they're seniors. I was convinced to write a book. I'm
not a writer. I didn't think I had anything to say, But here I have all these forty years of fifty one years, including high school, of women that have just they're a WHOSU in this country professionally, and they will tell you a lot of what they learned and accomplished came from playing basketball and learning life skills. You know, success and failure when you're playing a sport.
From you, you could say it from you.
Well, I thought everybody did what I did. So that's why I didn't want to write a book. I'm like, every program, every coach does this. This is not true, I guess.
Yeah, let's talk about Harvard. They come calling, they're looking for a new head women's basketball coach. I want to hear how indoor tennis courts led to you spending forty years in Cambridge.
Yeah, this is where I just came from to this. My reason for living is tennis. I'm just saying, not synchronized swimming and not even basketball. Yeah, And I was paying an on the future salary into a courts were just really expensive. So I didn't have any aspirations to be a college coach. So I got invited because I was the local successful coach. And when they invited me to apply, I'm like, Harvard, No, do they even have a basketball team? That's what I got, And so then
I went over. I was guilted into you at least need to go on your interview, and in one day's time I fell in love with Harvard. I just the energy on the campus, the student athletes I met. I then after a seven eight hour day of interviews, I wanted the job so bad and I was the only person candidate who didn't coach college or play college. So I didn't think I had a show, and I filed lawsuits, so I didn't think I had a chance in heck of getting the job, and I was surprised when I got it.
But you buried the lead during that visit. You spotted the any tennis courts and you were like, oh, I could use the for free. I'm in. Although the perks of the job are a lot of times the big draw. Of course it's another job, but the free tennis courts. Let's do it. Let's start with the big, the big one. Your ninety eight team, the first number sixteen seed to upset a number one seed, and the men's or women's NCAA tournament still the only time it's happened on the
women's side. You beat Stanford seventy one sixty seven. And before we get to that game, I heard you say in an interview that that ninety eight win actually happened as a result of a foundation that you built in the ninety seven tournament. Can you tell us about that.
Yes, when we went to we were paired up with North Carolina, and in my opinion, in lots of people's opinion, North Carolina might have been the all athletic team of the world of the country that year, the only team that I felt we didn't match up that well with.
Marion jones the black guard. That's so unfair.
It was kind of fast, yeah, a little plink guard not quite as fast, and I think we were down eighteen zero twenty zero. My poor point guard was trying to get it across half court past Marian Joneson was not doing a very good job, and she kept looking over Kathy call the time up, and I turned away because I didn't really have any suggestions for her. It was like a near impossible situation. But surprisingly enough, at halftime,
coaches gather up inside the locker room. My team goes in to talk about strategies to get better make adjustments in the second half, and I overheard my team truly, truly, truly believing that they could beat North Carolina. Now I think I can win every game I coach. That was one I may have hesitated on. I was so astounded by their confidence and very proud that I had given
them this ability to believe in themselves. So we coaches went in and I didn't say a whole lot, and I said, let's not wreck what they believe can happen, and we met their starts day in. They pressed us the whole second half. I think we lost by eighteen or so, which was a win.
But on scored them in the second half. So you won the second half, but the second.
Half, and not on my coaching Sarah.
On their belief, Yeah, on their So then that team not the exact same team, but a lot of those pieces. And you show up in ninety eight and now you've got this opportunity against Stanford. What do you remember about the lead up to that game and what you told your team to tell them, what would they need to do and how would you pull off the victory?
Yeah? Again, I do a lot of sports psychology with my teams. I don't use sports psychology when there's a problem. I do it to develop life skills like concentration, confidence, visualization, meditation, affirmations. I mean, I've done it all and again sometimes a lot of my players just roll their off. So we had years of using a lot of that stuff, you know, and it works for some, it doesn't work for others.
And it worked for collectively this group and my captain's Alison Feaster, which people know, and then a young woman, Megan basil Song. They were great, great, great leaders, and Alison's superpower was she had an ability to make all of our teammates better. And so I mean I would credit their leadership and their hard work and all the work we've done all year, the buy in that they all had on confidence and believing in yourself and drinking my punch. And it was the perfect storm of We
matched up really well with Stanford. We were dressed identically uniforms and warm ups, so when we went on, we all had the same warmups. It was thirty basketball players. Yeah, a riot. It was a perfect for us.
Alison Feaster, who we now of course know, went on to room with Don Staley in the w and is involved in a whole bunch of projects now. But I wonder, and I mean talk about a big game. Thirty five points, thirteen rebounds in that win for Feaster, and she led you guys in so many ways throughout that season. But how old do you feel watching Alison Feaster's daughter in the tournament, Sarah Strong at Yukon in the tournament this season?
Feel very very old? Thank you, Sarah.
I mean, no, listen, there's people that I covered in the majors and then I hear their like younger kid with the junior on the name is now in the pros, And I'm like, how old am I getting? Jesus Sarah Strong's so fun to watch, though, I imagine you still get calls every year about that upset, do you? Both from media but maybe also from like low seeded teams that want some Kathy Delaney Smith genius to tell their team about how they can upset.
Yeah. I do get a lot of This year, I didn't get very many, but up until this year, yeah, I would get a lot of the sixteen seeds would call and say what did you do?
But I think on the men's side too, Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, there's been you know, a lot of stories and I think they can read it. And it's twenty five years ago. Things are different now. Actually.
I mean I would bring you into my locker room in a second if I was one of those teams to tell them it's been done. By the time you retired in twenty twenty two, you were the winningest head coach in IVY League history of either gender six hundred thirty and four hundred and thirty four record, three hundred and sixty seven and one sixty eight in IVY League play. You led the program to twelve twenty win seasons, eleven IVY titles, sixteen postseason appearances, and a five hundred record.
Are better than thirty one of your last thirty three seasons, one point of contention for me. Eleven IVY titles, But you never won the IVY Championship tournament. How did that happen?
All right, Sarah, you know I love your podcast, but you're really falling off the pedestal, right now. Uh oh, yeah, no, there was, so there was. I remember we fought for a tournament for my entire forty years. I was there. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of a fourteen tournament. I still think there should be eight teams. I actually struggled with the four teams and only played it in at once I believe.
Oh really it's that recent.
Yeah, So I the one I realized that there was a tournament, and we beat Pinnell for the IVY Tournament Championship.
That's probably why I forgot about it, Yes, of course, very the memory. Well, the reason I asked that is because in all the conversation about Harvard making it this year, they kept pointing out the first time ever Harvard women winning the IVY League tournament championship, and I'm like, how is it possible that Kathy somehow won eleven IVY titles but never you know, must have won the regular season and I didn't. Okay, so they're mispleading me too.
So I think I played in two. Okay, that's the most.
But still still a very recent edition. Okay, yeah, you're off the hook. I'm on the book for my research and for trusting the media full of lies as always right, misleading. How did you approach teaching smarty pants kids with no scholarships differently than you might had you been at a big program?
Yeah? I think I probably so. I have this principle called to act as if it's in my book. Everyone wanted me to name the book Act as if I'm sort of famous for that, and so that is. It's not faked till you make it, but it's similar. It's just a little more proactive, and I acted as if I belonged at Harvard. However, inside I was very intimidated and very curious about these nerds. Yes you Sarah, that I'm going to coach, And the opposite is true. You know,
they're books smart, but they're life stupid. I'm sorry, I'm not saying they're life stupid, but sometimes, yeah, there's lots they could learn. And they are the reason I stayed at Harvard for forty years. So there, you know. And are there some that are too smart? Hell? Yes, yeah, let's unwind you a little bit. I mean I would have to slap them and say, stop trying to be perfect, you know, let's celebrate your mistakes a little bit here. That's that's the biggest challenge I think. Right in IVY.
League, Yeah, you got into meditation training too, right, and helping that bridge this gap for them, getting out of that mindset of maybe overachieving type A control and into the flow of the game.
Yes, and not everyone buys in, And so they all went through the motions because I would take your head off if they didn't. But like so, we would do like a visual meditation before every game. And then once at Darmouth, I was so into it because I still I'm a big believer in meditation. Yeah, and I was doing it and verbalizing the visualization and everyone my eyes were closed and everyone snuck out of the locker room
and I did not know it. And when I finished the visualization and opened my eyes, there was not a player in the law.
Yeah, it was punky kids.
They won the games so they didn't get in trouble.
How often did you get calls to go elsewhere? You said, the kids are why you stayed there. How close were you to ever leaving?
Never? Close to leaving? Never? And I probably told everybody that I had probably one or two offers, and then then I didn't because everyone I just think there was no better place for me than Harvard. And I come from a very big family and they're all around here, and this is where I wanted to stay. Money didn't matter, It didn't make a great salary. Sorry Harvard.
Yeah, I mean sometimes they have endowed positions where it's better than other places. Then other mid majors are smaller in terms of performance, but still not the same as the down stay multi multi millions at South Carolina. Now, your path at Harvard looked a little like your path at Westwood. You started out and it was a struggle, but only a couple of seasons in you were really starting to make waves. When did you realize you were
building something special? Not just having success, but I think I want to be a part of this and stay here and keep building. How long did it t to.
I knew probably my first title three years in that I loved the challenges of coaching that kind of a student athlete, and I view so I'm a very present person. So I'm never like I wonder if I can win the title next year. I'm like, I'm going to take here today today. You know, I want to have a I want to have a great practice today. And I would get cranky and miserable when my practices were bad, never mind you know, playing poorly in a game. I think staying present has kept me off of social media
and really happy. I might be one of the happiest people you ever meet.
I love that. What's the best perk of being at Harvard for forty years? Is it the incredible people who come on campus and speak? Is it get to tell everyone you're from HAVD. What's the is it the campus? Is it the access to things? What did you love the most about that part of it that was outside of basketball.
I love the I love the student athletes, and I loved I loved a lot of the people that worked at Harvard. Not all of them, for sure, the energy on the campus, this unspoken feeling that you are among people who are going to accomplish great things. I just always felt that, and so people would say, how do you recruit when there's no scholarships and there's no this, And I'm like, because what's at Harvard is very special and if you take advantage of it. And I think
that is true of all of the IVY League. I just think Harvard's location, you know, with the river runs through it and Boston is so fond and our accents are fabulous.
How did it feel watching them back at the tournament this year? Nerves, excitement, jealousy that you weren't on the sideline.
No jealousy whatsoever. I did not. I don't want to draw a last second play. I think the tank emptied at six one years, quite honestly.
But I think they've had a good run.
Yeah, I think they did a good job. I heartbroken that they didn't have their best game in the loss. That broke my heart.
Well, hopefully it's the beginning of another run for them. You know. I listened to an interview did you talked about players coming back to you later in life and saying how much they learned from you. You just talked about with the book, how many players came back and said, coach, your wisdom needs to be shared. But they also sometimes talked about how they hated you when they played for you. Now,
I think hate might be too extreme. You're probably being trd on yourself, but safe to say you took a bit of a tough love approach.
Yeah. I mean I my self criticism is I was too nice. I was like, oh, you're tired. They pulled an all lighter and I would say. I had assistant coaches who would come from other programs and they were like, hey, kill um. So I mean, there's never a one size fits so I and I have been blessed one I will say my breast cancer journey. You know, there are people who thought I was going to die and came out of the woodwork and tell me, you know, how
much they loved me and whatever. I think. That was shocking to me because I always thought, you know, no, everyone criticizes you. Everyone can do We live in a culture where everyone can do our job better than we can. Of course, it's the single only job in the world where everyone can coach better than we can. Including the players. So and then in my retirement, I have I zoomed every player I ever coached to write the book, and I was blown away by our conversations. And retirement for
me is I say yes to everything and everybody. It's so fun.
I love that. I feel like there's some pretty good life lessons to be learned from understanding the importance of being challenged to do better, to be better, to work harder, and that in the moment it sucks, and then later you're so grateful for the people who pushed you. And that is the sign of a great coach. But also I think the sign of a good athlete is someone
who can do it. You told a story on one of the interviews that was mind blowing about your top player, straight A's at Harvard, top scorer on the team, did not try hard, and when you said to her, I need you to work hard, she said, I've gotten this far, have it worked hard a day in my life? Why would I start now? And you had her leave the team your top scorer.
Yeah, that's I mean.
That's wild.
I know where did I get the courage to do that and be three and twenty five that year?
We love it I didn't that part wasn't part of the other interview important part. But I mean what you said is right, one bad apple. Right. If your best player is showing the worst habits, that trickles down and the people who can't afford not to try, who can't afford to be lazy, start to get that way, and now the whole team is sunk. I love your act as if. I think fake it till you make it
as a decent one. I've used that phrase a lot, especially in my career, where you've got to like start without any support or fans or belief, and you're kind of like selling a house, except it to you. Everyone. Isn't this so wonderful?
You know?
Like even if I know that there's a bunch of shit in the basement, I'm not telling you. I'm just gonna tell you how great it is. Right, But act as if is so great because I think it's essentially mind over matter. It's basically when I'm in a tough situation and I know it's not something I want to do. If I say, act as if you loved holding a giant snake, because I want to be someone who's not afraid act as if you're not afraid of bungee jumping, because I want to be someone who's not afraid of
anything in life. And if you have the power of your mind to do that, I mean, I beg you the examples. What's an example from your book of using that act as if when it really stood out to you.
I could give you a million, but I'll give you two. So backtball wise was Stanford. It was act as if, you know, because we didn't get a lot of respect. People are going, did you unpack your suitcase? Are you reading books tonight? Yeah? Like we really were a mid major that no one knew about, so we had to act as if. But I have used it healing. I've had several back surgeries, and you act as if you feel strong. You act as if you're feeling well, and
surprisingly you will feel better more quickly. You will feet stronger and get stronger more quickly. It's very powerful. I'm a big believer in it.
Yeah, not to go to the complete extreme, but like if you think about monks who are able to sit in one position for hours at a time, or even self immolating to the to the furthest extreme of sitting quietly while aflame. It's an idea of like you just tell your body I'm in charge of you instead of the other way around, And in a lot of ways
it could be really powerful. I remember listening to Kristin Press, the soccer player, in an interview and saying, sometimes when she's in the middle of the hardest workout possible, the wind sprints and all the strength and all the other stuff, she just focuses on her pinky and she's like, Oh, what is my pinky to feeling right now? How does my pinky toe feel? Is it warm? Is it cold? Is it hurting?
Is it?
And that focus somewhere else pulls her mind away from the parts of her that are working hard. And it's really amazing what our minds can do if we if we think about it. Let's talk about your your book written Wit, which I'm one thousand percent reading after this interview.
It came out in January. It's described as a memoir meets leadership and action, inspired by John Wooden and the courageous spirit of Brene Browns Darren Greatly, I'm already sold on this, but tell me especially, I'm interested in how Brene's messages come through.
So I have always coached and led non traditionally, like at Harvard, I was highly criticized because I wanted my players to call Kathy in the early eighties, and that was you'll get no respect. And I'm like, well, why would I get respect just because someone's saying coach and mostly they can't remember my name, that's why they're saying coach. Like, so, I'm just non traditional and so I used my instincts and I used relational leadership and it has just served
me well. However, I was very vulnerable. I was very I would be the first one. I'll be in practice, I'll go on and on about teaching a drill, and I'll make a mistake, you know, and a lot of coaches, our egos sort of want to hide that mistake. And I was the opposite. I was like, shit, I just
taught that wrong and then I fixed it. And in asking my players why they drank my puncher, why my leadership was so important to them, they said, because you were genuine, genuine, and you were authentic, and that wrong true with me. And that's Brene Brown's shick. That's what I have a girl crush on her because she's you know, she was the first one to come out and change male, white male traditional hierarchy leadership, which desperately needs to be changed in our world.
So is it true that the book was originally titled get your Head out of your Ass because You're missing Out? And why did you change the title?
I don't know these stupid people that made me change.
Sorry, I'm not gonna lie. Grittin Wit sounds like another coaching book. Get your Head out of your Ass because You're missing Out sounds like the first one. I'm picking up off the shelf.
Thank you, Sarah. I think we are aligned. I'm gonna I'm not gonna lie to.
You second release. Try it with the other titles. See what happens.
Well, I think we're going to have a book too, because everyone, hey, you forgot this story, Kathy, You've got this story right. So they wanted me to not rule out thirteen year old girls. They think it's an easy it's very easy read. There's some funny stories, and there's a message, you know, for parents and coaches and leaders and kids and young girls who you know are have fluctuating levels of confidence. So they thought the foul language
would rule them out. And then they said, well, academically, you know, Harvard Coop's not going to put it in their bookstore. Well, that's a.
Problem all these years, Harvard, don't you don't you ower a title of a book with ass in the name. I do love it, though, because I think the point of that was what we talked about earlier, with just getting women the confidence to decide that they could take something on even if they aren't quite ready, even if they're not the very best and the most of an expert. But you'll miss out if you're so desperate to be perfect or have it all right and figured out.
Yeah, well you're brilliant, you are.
You are slip through the cracks. Yeah, Kathy was so great to talk to you. I'm just I can't wait to read your book. I really I loved prepping for this interview and learning from you, just from Afar so even more so, and getting to talk to you in person. Thanks so much for the time.
It was great. I love you podcast. I'm a big fan. I love it.
Thanks again to Kathy for taking the time. I absolutely loved our chat. We got to take another break when we come back. A pregame stroke of genius. We draw your attention to what's easyl e the best way to relax, aren't you glad I'm making all these funds? Welcome back slices. We love that you're listening, but we want you to get in the game every day too. So here's our good game play of the day. Pick up a copy of Kathy's book Grit and Wit Empowering Lives and Leaders.
We know we're going to we'll link to it in the show notes, and you know we love to hear from you. To hit us up on email. Good game at wondermedianetwork dot com, and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review It's Easy slices. Watch Coloring, Painting and finding your Inner Artist, rating ten out of ten. Destressing and
nerve calming stars review. We learned before Sunday South Carolina game that star Chloe Kits turns to colored pencils and coloring books before games to get herself in the right headspace. Here a good game. We understand the power of a little arts and time. Producer Mish recently took a pottery class. I recently went to a painting class and painted one of my dogs. And producer Alex is just an amazing artist. You can actually buy her stuff on Etsy. Her shop
is called Azi Artwork. So shout out to you Chloe for hitting the books coloring books, and to all you slices. Go find an artistic outlet this week. Now it's your turn rate and review. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow. Good game, Kathy, Good game, Chloe, kimk you self doubt. You know, if you're not group chatting battle plans to journals or accidentally firing then rehiring nuclear safety experts, then you're already doing better than some of the most powerful
men in America. Act as if you got this because you do. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive producer a Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rutterer.
Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez, and Grace Lynch. Our associate producer is Lucy Jones. And I'm your host, Sarah Spain