NFL Week 12 - Amy Trask Interview and Tripgate in New England

don't want to step on you. And our audio guy, Joe Madrid, who who is slowly but surely becoming the m v P of the show, the audio sounding crisper and crisper each week. This is a This is a compliment. I don't give many as as these guys know, and I'm giving Joe a compliment. You're getting a lot better, man. I feel more and more appreciate. That's great. Okay, moving on, So alright, great show. We're gonna talk about a lot

NFL Week twelve already, it's crazy Thanksgiving. We got um, We've got a guest appearance by Amy Trask, Amy who do you know what Amy's nickname is? By Raiders fans, does either you guys know we're bringing on the Princess of Darkness. How cool is how cool is that we're talking nicknames? Maybe so Amy will be joining us. But

let's get into it. Let's get into a subject that you know, I didn't think we'd we'd be talking about, but but controversy in the and when I was at the NFL, and here's the deal, and everybody feels this

way at the league office. Every game there's twine and fifty six regular season games, and every game counts the same, Okay, But the bottom line is whether it's officiating, whether it's broadcasting, whoever, when you have a game like Cowboys Patriots, okay, on a national audience of the country is watching Cowboys Patriots to the biggest fan bases. You're talking about, you want that game to go smoothly from officiating perspective, from everything.

You want that game to go smoothly. Not that the the other game. And I'm not gonna I don't want to like use names of teams, but the the three and eight team versus the two and nine team in the early window, you're okay. Not you don't want an officiating mistake ever, but you're okay if it happened in that game. You don't have as many because you don't have as many eyeballs, and it's not going to be as controversial. So what happens Cowboys Patriots? What did we

have today? Nine of the of the country watching the game. We have controversy involving tripping. Imagine you've got some good tweets about tripping of all the things. And if I get one more tweet with that, wasn't tripping. These refs are tripping, Like if I have one more time, all right, we get it. It's alright, whatever, Yeah, the first sixteen times, it's good tripping. Okay. So you have a call early in the game in the first quarter on Tyron Smith.

That's again it's it's this is it's a hard game to officiate, right, but the umpire in this game calls tripping on Tyron Smith early. When you when you talk about coverage, you have a referee and you have an umpire in the offensive backfield. The referee is going to be on the throwing hand side of the right hand typically the right hand side of of the quarterback. The umpire opposite up us at the referee and they each

take their side of the line of scrimmage. On passing place okay, and they work, they work inside out and and in instance instance the umpire called tripping. It wasn't tripping. It was It was kind of a double team block Smith had. It was almost as if, just by circumstance he turned his leg, was there the defender, they made contact. To me, it wasn't tripping. First quarter, not that big a deal. But later in the game, fourth quarter, Cowboys

are behind by four. They're driving to try to take the lead, and uh and it's a third down play um and they complete a pass us for a first down, and we get another trip, this time on Travis Frederick in the middle of the line. This one's probably a little closer, but still to me, it's not tripping. Tripping is an intentional act tripping. What you want to see for a trip is more of the player lifting his leg. This was again Frederick turning the legs make contact. There

is certainly contact with the knee and the defender. The defender goes to the ground. So I understand in the moment in real time the umpire seeing that, processing it and calling the foul. But it's not when you look at it again, a trip is a lifting of the leg. It's an intentional act. You can have a leg whip, which is more of a strike which you're whipping the leg. That was not the case, and I certainly didn't see him lift the leg intentionally to trip the defender and

then didn't like the call. Ends up being a pretty big call because then now you go from first and

ten to third and eleven. They don't convert. You have a big overturned They had just picked it up on yeah, they picked it up and and then you get a fourth down play a past Marii Cooper that was ruled complete on the field, and to the consternation of Cowboys fans everywhere, it was overturned and replay, which again we don't want to bring back bad memories, but that has happened before I've been involved, and maybe could when I watched that second one, I think you could have made

a maybe a light argument that there was a hole in seventy seven. What do you think, you know again with holding, holding again is a very subjective call. Holding, You know, maybe there's a left arm and extension to the left arm. I'd want to see more restriction. I'd want to see something more of a grab and a restriction. In that instance, I think the defender went to the ground because the legs did make contact, But I didn't think it was a hole. I didn't think it was

a trip. It's obviously a big call. Not again, not the reason the Cowboys lost the game, but it's it has an impact. And and when you see very rarely you see tripping calls. If if you have twenty tripping calls all year, that's a lot, and so to see two in one game, um is an outlier. And then you have one official that's looking at it. And that's where you know, if it were me in that position, if I was ahead of officiating, you know you're looking

at that official. You're gonna show him those two plays. You're gonna get that that officials perspective. Okay, what did he see to make him think that was a trip? And you kind of work work it that way, and then you make sure you share that with the rest of your staff to say either this is or this isn't tripping and we we we don't want this call going forward, or we do want this call going forward and uh, and again it's just it's an interesting call.

And then there was you know there was an interesting situation at the end of the game with the Patriots are trying to run out the clock and there was five seconds on the clock. Brady drops back. It's fourth down place. So this is something that is coached and you talk to teams about this, where the quarterback can just drop back, throw the ball out of bounds and try to take as much time off the clock as necessary.

And uh, and it's not it's not grounding if the quarterback isn't under pressure, even though he throws it from the pocket and uh, and the all you know, goes out of bounds. It's really just a just kind of an airmail type throw. But it did look like and this would have been it would have been more, it would have been more eyebrow raising have this game been in Dallas. It felt like that last second kind of just kind of just hung on a little bit. Yeah,

it felt like it was. And when you talk about the ball, you know, when is the play over, right, the ball crossing the sideline or the ball touching something you you really you look for a signal the clock operators looking for a signal from the official or clear indicator that the play is over. The ball really touching something out of bounds is the indicator that they use. And uh, and it felt like clocks should have expired and so Dallas did end up getting one play it

was inconsequential. They didn't do anything um on that So interesting tripping. Yeah, those tripping calls to me, I I didn't really like them either. Like the first one with with Tyron Smith is he's getting hit and it almost looks like he's trying to brace himself. He's had lower body injuries, ankles, knee's and he's just it looks like he's just trying to get out of the way to

keep from from getting stepped on or hit. And then the second one, it seemed like the Travis Frederick he took the hit on with his shoulder first and initial contact came there. You think if the initial contact comes with the leg for the trip, that, yeah, that's what you want to see an overt act, you really do. You want to see a clear lifting of the leg that's gonna that's gonna impede the defender. And I just didn't think, Again, these are judgment calls, and listen, Cowboys fan,

Dean's on your side, on your side. I think my question is is there a hashtag yet don't trip hashtag don't trip trip gate, I don't, I don't know, maybe trip and moving on putting it to bed. The league did announce fines for Pittsburgh Cleveland, uh and significant fines and just in terms of total number, because you had so many players, Travis, I think, what was it, three players? Thirty three players. There's there's a number. There's a fine for for fighting, for being in the fight area, So

thirty three players. Mason Rudolph was the he was the top. He was the winner in terms of numbers. He got fifty grand and obviously, look and one of the things, look, let's let's talk about it a little bit, is that now it came out that that in his appeal, Myles Garrett had had said that that Mason Rudolph used obviously a racial slur, and that's what that's what led him to hitting Rudolph with the helmet. And there are so many things we talked to our officials, used to talk

to our officials all the time. There's so many things that are said on the field. And you know, the league wanted to put in I remember years ago they wanted to curb the use of you know, the racial slurs or if there's anything involving sexual orientation, things like that, and it became very difficult for the officials to differentiate between what was said, you know, what is said between two players, that is who're saying it. It's a pile,

is it? Is it kind of the normal trash talk that goes is on that we all know happens in every sport. Or when does it cross that line from from normal trash talk to something that is truly truly unsportsmanlike and uncalled for? And I think that's something I would show the league in there in there in their kind of investigation, for lack of a better term, you know, it is looking for audio talking to anyone that would

include the officials. I was involved in situations where an official was accused of saying something to a player and you had to interview players and talk about who was in the area and did anybody hear anything. So it's just it's a tough tough deal to try to prove or disprove something that's said on the football field. And uh, and so again, hopefully this thing goes away and uh,

you know, the fines are out Garrett's suspension was upheld. Uh. Pouncey suspension was reduced from three games to two games. And uh, and we'll kind of see if there's any any further fallout. Um, let's move on to our favorite subject past an inference review. And and Travis, you had a couple of things. There were a couple of comments going into the week from some some head coaches. Vic Fangio from the Broncos and Sean Payton of the Saints.

What what did Vic have to say last Monday? He said, it's gonna have to be a five car pilot, I guess for them to overturn something. Yeah, so you know, and Vic and and he's referring you to there were there were two plays at the end of their game

against the Vikings. There was a play um at the end of the game where it looked like there might have been fouls on both players past inference on the offensive push off and then a grab by the defender which would have led to if they were both called, would have led to off setting penalties and replaying the down. Denver's obviously trying to come back and and and get a get a score. At the end of the game.

There was a plate two plays earlier where the defender clearly grabbed the Broncos receiver's face mask with the ball in the air. The game was not stopped, It was under two minutes, the game was not stopped. There was no foul added in replay. So I understand Vic's frustration. UM, And but we're gonna talk about how how from last week to this week it may have gone from a five car pile up to a little bit of a

fender bender in terms of the standard. UM. But Sean Payton had some very interesting comments to talk about the process, so p I reviewed. He said this on Friday, said, I think it's a challenge for al al rivern Um, it's a challenge for New York when we go to New York. And quite honestly, I think the numbers looking at those plays from a consistency standpoint need to be It's hard to be singular and singular in that position.

It's hard for one person, Payton said. He said Thursday night, when coaches me he's talking about his team on a phase of a game, you know there's going to be four or five voices that can have thoughts and opinions on the decision, not one person, and I think al does a great job, and yet I think the number needs to be more like three or five. It's a

it's an interesting thought and concept. So when when replay went to when I was at the NFL, two thousand fourteen was the first year we were involved in replay decisions, and the theory you was, Okay, you have seventeen different officiating crews, and you have seventeen different replay officials, and they may look at the same play a little bit differently. And we would see it every week because we'd be

in the command center. We would see a call overturned in Seattle, UM with with less evidence than a call not overturned in Baltimore with more evidence. So you were trying to create a consistent a process that was consistent in terms of decision making. So you you bring in less people and you say, Okay, there's gonna be a small group of people in New York that are gonna make these decisions or be involved at that time, be

involved with the referee in these decisions. In theory, you're going to create greater consistency by reducing the number of people making the decisions. UM. I think what what Shaun is saying is it's a tremendous burden on one person, and it is, it really is. And you're talking about one person having to look at all of these plays and try to adjudicate these plays consistently, and it's hard.

And so I would agree that maybe it is two to three people that are trained, that are taught, that that understand what the framework is and understand what the standards are and can make those decisions, because I know I was in that role and that's a very difficult job and always doing the best job he can. He's doing a good job, but there's so much on his plate.

There's so much on his plate, and it's hard to do all of those things because you're always you always feel like in that role, like you're putting out on another fire, You're dealing with another controversy you're dealing with And I can't imagine Al having to deal with past interference review and all of the scrutiny and everything else. But guess what, there's eighteen billion other things that he's got to deal with and it's really hard. And I

think Sean might be honest something. I know, three guys at this table right here, that might be great at it, right, Yeah,

you guys, you guys are really good. But let's let's move to what happened on Sunday where I really feel like the standard the standard has changed, at least from a perspective of the call it's not made on the field, because going into the week, we we had seventy one reviews, twelve reversals, right, So doing the maths to carry the one six with sixteen nine okay, sixteen nine percent of

the of the reviews are being overturned. On Sunday there were there were unofficially six reviews for past inference and three were overturned. So let me do the math from that's fifty. Okay, that's fifty. That's that's a a much bigger number. And we saw three calls get overturned. We saw a touchdown get taken back in the Jets Raiders game on a on an O p I that was added in replay. And what's significant about that is it was ruled a touchdown, so it had to be initiated

by the booth. And we've seen calls, we've seen non calls in automatic review situations not stopped for what was probably just as much contact or maybe even more contact than that play. And and it was and I think it is offensive past inference by the letter of the rule, but it's not to the standard of what we've established going into the week. Then you had you had another call that was added in the Dolphins Browns game, again stopped inside of two minutes. And so you have a

replay official. This isn't a coach challenging where they're forced to look at it. This is the replay official deciding in New York deciding to stop it. And it was past inference um and it was I think it was Odell Beckham that got it, that got contacted, and that was overturned and added past an inference. And if you compare that play to Golden tape play Giants Patriots, if you compare that too, even earlier in the year, there was a play involving Richard Sherman and Mike Evans. There

there was blocking down field with Sammy Watkins. If you compare those plays that weren't overturned to this one, I think anyone looking at it would say those are fouls. This one is questionable. And then you had a could have been a really big call in the Carolina New Orleans game where not called on the field, challenged by the Panthers and created in replay for past inferience, and it is past interferiance, but again, is it up to

that standard? So we saw I think we've seen a shift and there I know there well, I would say, why do you think that? I know there was a call this week between the Competition Committee. I don't know who, but at least one member of the Competition Committee and the officiating group in New York. There was a call

and the main topic was past an inferrance review. And so putting two and two together, knowing there was a call and just seeing the result of the reviews on Sunday to meet, that tells me that the bar the needle has moved, at least when it comes to the call not made on the field. And this is the concern. And I think when you it's been a moving target

all year and it feels like it's moved again. And I'm not saying this is not necessarily the wrong direction, right, but again, it's hard when you're you're moving it from week to week or from quarter of the season to quarter of the season, it's hard for clubs to get a handle on it. Is it similar to what we saw earlier in this season when they had that conference calling. Teams weren't alerted of this that there was gonna be it was offensive holding. You know, we saw that, we

saw that early in early in the season. And I think you know in all of this, and I know, and I know coach Peyton. I think Shawn said something after the game, and I think that he had some comments about um and and it definitely definitely is related to the past inference call that was they said it wasn't our best game, it wasn't their best game, and

quite honestly, it wasn't New York's best game. When they change like how they they're going to rule, they let the coaches know, hey, we're gonna tighten up or we're gonna loosen up a little bit on that stuff. They should And that's the thing, if you you know, when I was at the League office and and before that, you know Pereira and and Carl Johnson before me, you would put out videos and so if there was something significant a point of emphasis, you know, I would do

a tape that would go out to the clubs. Every Thursday, and it would highlight things here here's typically it would be anything from the previous week that needed explanation and or something that might have been controversial or something that was rules related that I felt the clubs could benefit from.

And then it was something if we were going to emphasize something or we were going to and you don't have changes very often, but if something was going to change, you would put it on that tape and make sure the clubs understood that that here's we were doing this, We're gonna be doing something a little bit different, and so you would hope that the clubs are notified of that. And again, because these are these are challenges that are tied to time outs, and they're limited and they're important.

And so do we know stats on how many were challenged, because I would think if they knew that it was gonna they were gonna loosen up on it, then there would be more challenged. Well, there wasn't. So when you look at the number of of challenges, I have to go back and look this week. I don't think there weren't significantly more challenges this week than in previous weeks. We just know that there were three overturns this week,

which is a high number I think might be. I don't think we've had more than three and during any other week, and and so I don't feel like there were a lot more. I'd be I'd be willing to bet next week it's gonna go up. That's the key. If once you see that, and if there is any communication with the clubs, then then now as a club, I'm gonna say, hey, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna challenge more because we have a better chance of winning these is gonna be that rent Arians is just gonna

be like flinging it. Do you think you're seeing this now because these games are a little bit more significant now as you get into the late later part of the season, the last quarter of the season. Yeah, it's a variety of things. Could be you know, you you you obviously you never you don't. It's not ideal to have calls in the middle of the season and change things.

And I'm not saying it never happens, but it's just not ideal because because to say that the teams were playing under a standard in week three that was different than the standard in Week twelve, that's tough. If I'm a team and a call that that didn't get overturned in week three would have gotten overturned in this new standard, and that impacted my game, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be passed. So so I have a question. Somebody texted me,

because when you know Dean, you become Dean. So everybody who has a rule of football question they text me, and then I have that. So if coaches are out of challenge, why don't they take the red flag away from them so they don't get the penalty. There should be someone on the team that takes it, so they do. So when the when that's a good question. Um, so the coach, when the coaches either out of challenges or at the two minute warning, the refe officials will go

over to the to the coaches. They coach, you can't challenge anymore, you gotta put the red flag away. So the official doesn't take the red flag from them, but the officials tell them you're out of challenges or it's two minute warning, you can't challenge. You gotta put the challenge flag away. And so every coach, Now every coach knows after the two minute warning they can't throw the red flag. So if they do, they're doing it for

a reason. Um, there are some unusual situations. We had one a couple weeks ago with the Rams where it was an interception that was overturned because of a penalty. That's a new rule, a little bit unusual. Coach mc McVeigh, through the flag. I get that, but most coaches, every coach knows once we get to two minute warning and officials go and tell them, they don't, they don't take the red flag. Should coach he should take the flag?

Somebody has Yeah, if there's any any other head coaches out there, if you need a flagtaker, Joe is good at taking things and losing them. Yeah, exactly. Don't give him the red flag because he might lose like he lost my a T M card a couple of weeks ago. Um that I just got a new one back and had to do, you know, moving along a couple of places that had had like automatic payment coming out. So if my lights go off, will know why. Um, he

got it, buddy. You know, I've got a good story about the league meeting, let's say, but we should probably go to break. Can we get that story after the break? No, after the break, We're gonna talk to the Princess of Darkness, Amy Trask. Maybe maybe later we'll talk about that league meeting story. Amy Trash. Next on Good Calls. All right, we're back on Good Calls. I am so excited to introduce our guest this week. She is a football analyst

for CBS Sports and author. You negotiate like a girl, chairman of the board for Big Three Basketball, former CEO of the Oakland Raiders, the Princess of Darkness herself, Amy Trask. Amy, thank you so much for joining me, and I want to I want to ask you a question. You are known as the Princess of Darkness amongst Raider fans, which I think is the coolest nickname. How did you get that me? Well, thanks for inviting me to join you. I'm thrilled to do so, and it is the coolest

nickname ever. And it was not intended as a compliment. Mike Silver, who at the time was with Sports Illustrated, wrote a feature and in it he quoted some anonymous sources within the NFL. I don't remember whether they were UH team owners or team executives or a combination, but they said in a not complimentary manner that behind my back they referred to me as the Princess of Darkness. Well, what wasn't intended as a compliment, I accepted and embraced

as a compliment, as did Rader Nation. We all thought it was terrific and we we claimed it. So since then I've been the Princess of Darkness. And I hope right now that you're just a little bit afraid, Dean. I am always. I'm always a little bit maybe not afraid, but intimidated and in awe of what of what you've accomplished. And I love the fact and what better. I mean, it's the Raiders. How how great is the Princess of

Darkness Raiders? To me, it's it's awesome. And uh so you you were you grew up in l A. You were a Raiders fan, and then and then when they came back to l A kind of was in line. You were at law school, you interned in the legal department, then went back and uh and you were the CEO in until you you retired in two thousand thirteen. And you've done so many things. I mean, I just saw you know, two thousand nineteen, you were named one of

the hundred greatest game changers in NFL history. And I want to talk a little bit about that experience, you know, being in that being in a in a male dominated industry like football. And I read your book, and I want to talk a little bit about your experiences with the Raiders. UM. What was that like? Just breaking in and and and how did you how did you manage well? I I you noted it. I grew up in Los Angeles,

but I did my college up in northern California. I was at Berkeley and fell in love with everything about the Raider organization when I was just up the freeway, so to speak, up the road at cal Uh. That was when the Raiders were there. And when I came down to Los Angeles for grad school. When I returned home to Los Angeles for grad school is when the team relocated. And I thought, wow, isn't that my great fortune? My team's coming with me. And I know that that

did not resonate well when the team left. I wasn't with the organization when Al moved it from Oakland and Los Angeles. UM, But when I was in grad school down here, picked up the phone called the organization and and asked about doing an internship and what what attracted me to the organization. I loved football from the time I was a kid. What attracted me to the Raiders in particular, was everything about the organization resonated with me.

Al would hire people that other organizations would label behavior problems, and having been labeled the behavior problem when I was in kindergarten, that struck a chord with me. And Al gave people second and third and fourth chances, and I was given a lot of chances. And it's just everything

about the organization. And you touched upon gender. You know there will be people listening to your terrific podcast who liked the Raiders and liked Al Davis and people who hated the Raiders or still hate them and hated Al Davis. But if everyone is being intellectually honest about it, he deserves so much credit for hiring without regard to race, gender, ethnicity, or any other individuality which has no bearing on whether

someone can do a job. And I thought I worked with Art Shell when Art was at the League office, and he spoke so highly of Al Davis. I never I never had the opportunity to meet Al. I I've met Mark on on numerous occasions and had conversations with him. But I know Art spoke so highly about Davis and you talk about that, you know, giving people a chance and and and that. What what was it like to work for Al? It was the opportunity of a lifetime. And you know, of course Al hired Tom Flores and

I'm listening this only chronologically. He's hired Tom um and then he hired me uh in the mid eighties. And the reason I note that is, think about that, Dean, we're talking now in in the mid two and we started talking about it, I don't know, maybe a little earlier, maybe a little later the mid part of this block of time, UM about women in sports. But in the

mid eighties we weren't talking about that. And then he hired Art Shell and without and I say this with a big smile on my face, not only did he hire without regard to race, gender, ethnicity, uh, he fired with out regard to those things. And he cussed a people without regard to those individualities, which, as I said, have no bearing on whether we can do a job. The biggest misconception about Alan, this goes to the heart

of your question about working for him. The biggest misconception is that he wouldn't tolerate anyone who disagreed with him, because if that were the case, I would have been fired about two weeks into my job. No, you're not disagreeable. Never I I disagree agreeably, but I do disagree when I wish to disagree, and I did. Two weeks into my job, I disagreed with him and we had a loud, loud discussion. He yelled, I yelled, We yelled. I don't

have a dainty voice under the best of circumstances. And you know, after we've been going out one another for you know, I don't know quite a while. He looked at me and he said, oh, oh, I got you. I got it, and we moved right on. He understood the point I was making and what I learned right

then two weeks into my job. Of course, you can disagree with him, but if you're going to do so, you're gonna come armed with data and information and fact because if you're going to disagree, he's going to have a disagreement. Um, and you better just know what you're talking about. Yeah, I I like I said, so many people talk so highly of of al Davis, and I was just I've just missed him when I was at the league office, that just we didn't you know, he

wasn't he wasn't Uh. I just didn't get a chance to meet him. But I wish I really would have had an opportunity. Now I read your your book, You Negotiate Like a Girl, And one of the excerpts that I really liked was when I was when you ran into a good friend of mine, Andrew Kramer, in the bathroom at the league meeting. And I never really thought about this because I've been to a ton of league meetings like you have, and it's I always think about like the lines for the men's room compared to the

lines for the ladies room. In most instant says it's the ladies room has the long line. Well, at the league meeting, it's all men and and and right, no line.

It's and you talk about like two of the most powerful people, not women, people in sports in the ladies room, and you and you talked about like just being intimidated by Andrea and if if anybody that has ever seen Andrew, Andrew is not she's a tiny person but physically but everything else about her is so amazingly just tremendous, and I just thought that was you know what, what what was that like just being in those meetings at that time and being one of very few women. Um you

know what, what resistance did you experience from from any group? Well? When I started attending league meetings in the mid eighties, there were no other women in the room. Oh, I'm sorry. That weren't related to ownership. Oh actually, you know, you know there's the one big league meeting a year where where families come, but the two per club meetings and the one for club meetings. Um M, that it just there. The discussion of women in sports wasn't happening. When I

went to my first league meeting. Uh, you know that. You you know how it works doing the owners and executives gathered in the back of the room and then have a little bit of coffee or whatever before the meeting starts. And I was in the back of the room and someone turned and looked at me, the owner of another team, and and asked me to get him coffee. And I quickly realized, I'm the only woman in this room who's not part of the catering staff. So I had a lot of fun with it. I reacted in

a manner that worked well for me. I've been criticized by others who told me I should have gotten annoyed or I should have given him a lecture, and I handled it in a way that I thought was going to be very effective, and it was, and I thought it was going to be very fun, and it was. I looked at him and I said, sure, how do you take that? And he told me, and I handed

him his coffee. And I knew when that meeting started in a few minutes, and the two people per club took a seat, and he saw I was there, he would put two and two together. And remember the coffee incident. Well, I got him his coffee, and a few minutes later we went in and Al and I sat in our two seats. And when I he looked over and saw me, you could actually almost see the blood draining from his face.

And I started laughing, and he started laughing. And from that moment on, he could not have been more supportive and more encouraging of me than he was. But I did regularly remind him he never even tipped me for the coffee. Yeah, exactly, what was that about? Right? Right? Um? But you know, I had the just magnificent privilege and pleasure of working with UM. It's just terrific human beings who interacted without me, with me, without regard to agenda,

and that's how I approached my job. I never spent a moment thinking about the fact that I was a woman. It strikes me as counterintuitive if one doesn't want others thinking about one's gender, for one to spend time thinking about one's gender. I mean, if I want to walk into a meeting and I don't want anyone else thinking about the fact that I'm a woman, then I don't think I should be thinking about the fact that I'm

a woman. It's an interesting you know, talk about like that gender blind concept and you want to treat people the same regardless of gender. And I went through a similar situation, not me personally, but I hired Sarah Thomas, who was the first female NFL official, and Sarah is the same way, Sarah, Sarah, I'm going I'm I want

to be a game official. It's not I don't want to be a female game if I want to be a game official, and I'm going to treat you the same way, and I expect to be treated the same way as any other game official. And as you know, when you when you realize you're a game official, people don't treat you that well. And so you know, for Sarah, I remember it was it was Bruce arians who kind

of baptized her into the NFL. And Bruce will will MF anyone and he MF Sarah during a preseason game and and we talked about it after the game said, I said, you made it. You're an NFL official now because regardless of gender, you're going to get that type of treatment. And I think you know that was a very similar experience for her and I you know, it's just so hard nowadays to to be that, you know, to be blind to that because we hear the like

you said, you were there in the eighties. We're still talking about every time a female, we have a female coach or it's a story. When do you think it

becomes a non story? You know what, just what a brilliant point you make, And I'm glad you made it because as exciting as these things are, and I want to touch on your hiring of Sarah for a moment, but as exciting as these things are, what's going to be truly exciting is when this is no longer a story, when it's no longer a story when someone is hired who isn't typically hired in a role, whether it's due to gender or race or any other you know, individuality

that has been excluded in the past. So you know, that's when it's going to be exciting, when we no longer are talking about these things because it becomes the norm. But I remember when you hired Sarah um and I the hats off to you because you did it because she was the right person for the job. You didn't do it for any other reason. And I was interviewed about that quite a bit, and my point was exactly

the one you just made. You know what, She'll do her job and guess what, she's going to get booed, and she's going to get cussed at and she's going to get cussed out. And you know what, if you do it to a male official, you should do it to a female official. And that was my instinct, my gut impression of what Sarah wanted, and it turns out

that is how she viewed her job as well. I will tell you that one of the most special moments in my career was when Al was we were with a group of people, and I'll try to make this very short, but essentially he was apologizing to a different woman in the room, a visitor we had um saying an advanced look. You know, I'll try not to swear. I don't like to swear in front of women. And I looked over at him, like, what did you just say?

And he didn't see me looking at him, and then he said, and I would never swear at a woman. And my pen flew out of my hand and landed on the desk with a thump. Because the man swore at me all the time, probably every day, multiple times. And he looked over at me and realized what he had said and how I reacted, and he said, oh, Amy, I swear at Amy, but I don't consider her a woman. And that was the biggest compliment he could ever have

given me, that he evaluated me without regard to gender. Yeah, it's interesting because you know, my my motives were questioned when we hired Sarah, and the league's motives were questioned, are we just hiring her because she's a female? Is it a pr thing? And it was it was tough, It was tough because the league wanted to celebrate her, her making you know, that milestone, but we also had many conversations with her. We also wanted to protect her

and say, look, she's just another game official. And and and I think your point is a great one too. When it's going, when it when it will be really exciting, is when it's not a story. And and hopefully that's that's coming in the near in the near term versus

you know, farther down the line. And of course it's not exactly and of course it's not mutually exclusive to both recognize that she got her job on the merits without regard togender, but that by you hiring her, that's a heck of a message to little girls that they too can pursue their dreams and know that there are

people who will hire them without regard to gender. Now, listen, I want your listeners to know that when you and I interacted when we were both in the league, there was never, in my view, in my estimation, in my experience, any time you interacted with me in any manner other than you would have had I been a male. Sure does that you know? And and that, by the way, that's how it should be whether we were on the same side of an issue or wanting to strangle one another.

Gender should not not that I would ever want to do that to an official um or anyone in the officiating, you should say, but my experience with the officials and the league, during my years with you, with Mike Pereira, gender was never an issue, and and that and that's how we we approached it as well. I do want to I would be remiss. We talked about a phishing let's shift gears a little bit. I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the play. And I know

this is something that you know. I know it haunts you and you probably still wake up at night and you see Walt Coleman's face the tuck play. Okay, talk to me about what what your experience, what was happening, what was going through your mind as it all unfolded on that snowy evening up in Oxborough. Well, as you know, it was Foxborough, as you just mentioned, I should say, so it wasn't a new, modern, modern facility. So staff from the visiting team was seated in a visiting team

staff section of the press box. So we were in the middle of you know, the media, and Art McNally, the then director of officiating, was behind me. And the reason I point that out is there's the no cheering in the press box rule which people try to abide by it, but it doesn't always work. So when we saw Woodson hit Brady, the ball come out, Beakert falling, we knew we couldn't scream. We knew we couldn't cheer.

So my colleagues and I, the coworkers and I, we just started grabbing each other's arms and like expressing just incredible delight with our pictures, squeezing one another because we didn't want to scream. And then I realized, oh my gosh, they're going to review this play. And as you know, the play was inside just just just inside of two minutes. Had this play been only a couple of seconds sooner, game over, because New England had no time out, New

England couldn't have challenged this. I'm getting myself always, but I mean, when you think about football being referred to as a game of seconds and a game of inches, if this play happens only seconds earlier, game over. So anyway, it didn't, and it happened just seconds inside of two minutes, and I realized it was being um reviewed. So I turned to Art McNally, who your listeners should know was not a young man at the time. He was very old,

or he was older, he was very esteemed. And I looked at him in a very loud voice, because again I have a loud voice. I wasn't trying to scream. I just talked loudly. I said, you better call nine one one because if you overturned this, if you if you overturn this play or this I'm trying not to say, but you know, if you, you better call nine one one because if you overturn this F and play, I'm gonna have an F and stroke. But I didn't say

F and I said the word. Well, in that Mike Silver article I referred to earlier UM it was reported by someone that I said, you better overturn. You know, if you overturn this F and play, I'm going to have an F and heart attack. So I looked at my husband because I didn't recall I had said that. And I looked at my husband. I said, I didn't say that. I did not say that. I am contacting

sports illustrated, I am demanding a retraction. My husband lets me go on and on for a bit, and then he looks at me and says, well, before you call sports illustrated, let me tell you what you really did say. You said you better not overturn this f and play because if you do, I'm going to have an F and stroke. So it was, yeah, it was the ya, it's I can't even describe to you how just surreal

it was. And yes, we got the ball back, and yes, you know, everybody points out amy, you still had opportunities to win, and they're right, Except I saw the faces on our sidelines. I saw how incredulous and stunned everyone in the organization, coaches, players, all of us were. Um, it was like someone had ripped into our heart, into our chest cavities and ripped our hearts out. Now is that an excuse? No, we still had a chance to win the game, but in our minds we had and

it was just taken from us. We were we were overwhelmed, just heartbroken. Now and that's and and I can't imagine going from the highest of highs we we won the game to what is happening and as it's playing out and now and now everybody has thinks it's over, and

now you have to compose yourself and keep playing. It's an unbelievable, unbelievable situation, and you are what what was great is that you to this day you are as you are, as adamant and as emotional as you were in two thousand and one to today, two thousand nineteen. It's still with you. And that's that passion it is and you know you stated it perfectly and far more articulately, articulately than I did, because I was getting myself all hit up again. But um, yeah, we won the game.

In our minds, the game was over. We won game overdone, and now we had to regroup and play again. And that's why I'm very careful to say. I don't offer that as an excuse, because other teams might have been able to regroup and win the game anyway, but I offered as an explanation. We were just flabbergasted. And yes, I am as passionate about it today. But I will note this many people when they hear me or see my tweets about it, Amy get over it, Amy, let

it go. And my response to that is, isn't this the fun? Of sports. There are so many things in life that we have to let go, that we have to say, all right, move on, let go. Well, the fun of sports is the passion that we have and the fact that whether it's the immaculate reception or the touch rule or any other place, you know, the catch, we all can continue to feel as passionate as we do. We don't have to let it go. That's the passion of sports. And and that's it, and that's what I

think makes it so great. And I think that sometimes we don't we don't want to see officiating controversies necessarily, but they they're part of the lore of the game, right, it's it's part of the history and part of that that romanticism of remembering, Hey, if everything was just accurate, never and there was no debate, no controversy, it would be boring. And and and sorry you had to be on the wrong end of that call, as as the

law and the history. And we're celebrating a hundred years of NFL football, but it is, it is part of it. And yeah, I was about to jump in and say there's no beauty in that night. Now you and I you know, let's let's have at it. There's no beauty, but I do understand what you're saying. It is part of what um people remember about sport. It was just oh and and and then we we couldn't get out of New England because it was snowing. And well, and

I will tell you this. We finally got home hours and hours and hours and hours delayed, and I got into my house and I was looking at email, and there was an email from my cousin, who's, you know, a very very successful, smart lawyer, and he got a copy of the Tuch rule and he sent a mass email to everyone in the family, like fifty people, breaking down a legal analysis of the Tuch rule. And I

was so mad. I hit reply all and I just wrote f but I spelled the word out as you and it said, and my husband says to me, a few minutes later, you know, you sent that to the entire family, including like your parents and everyone. And I didn't care. And maybe twenty minutes later I get an email back to the whole family from my dad and it said, Amy's right. Well, I just want to say before I let you go that you know, the Tuck rule was changed in two thousand thirteen, and who was

the head of officiating that year. That was someone's first year, and one of his first orders of business was to change the tuck rule. Remember who? Remember who that was? Let me think rhymes rhymes rhymes with? Yeah, I can't think of a good rhyming word. I was going to be really cute and say what your name rhymed with? But I know who that was. That was me. So that was an ode to you, and I thought it was perfectly It was poetic that the Raiders abstained from

that vote that I thought that was amazing. I thought that was the that was the punctuation point. That was it. That was it at the end, and that was bringing back the old abstention of Raider lore. Because that was one of my greatest and most proud moments, was when I got out to let me end the process of abstaining and start voting on things. And it took a lot of work for me to get him to stop abstaining. But if ever there was a perfect moment for the

organization to go back to abstaining, that was it. It was it. I thought it was perfect poetic justice. So Amy, thank you so much. Amy. You can follow her on Twitter at Amy Trask, maybe she'll say hi to you, which she does to a lot of us on Twitter. Amy, thank you so so much for joining me. Dan, may I say before we go, um, that it really was a delight to join you on this and it is so fun for me to watch how you are succeeding in media and your every success as the league's loss.

Thank you so much. Amy. All Right, we're gonna take a break and when we come back, I'll share that league meeting story and we're gonna talk about a crazy play from college football's oldest and longest running rivalry. Next on Good Calls. All right, we're back on Good Calls. Thanks again to the Princess of Darkness, Sammy Trash for joining us a lot of great stories. Um, she's still not over the tuck little by the way box. They do.

They bring in guests on Sundays to hang out, and we have what's called the Avocado Room, which is Fox's cool hip way of a green room, right because avocado were in California and blah blah blah blah blah whatever exactly so today, so today do it again, Chad Avocado toast. You guys going to get some avocado terrorist. That's very that's very callie. So so today, in addition to the normal guests, um, there was a group John c McGinley, the actor Travis give me, give me a quick film

out from filmography. John. I saw him walking in the room and I was like, I know this guy from somewhere. And the one that I knew right off top of my head was Office Space and Scrubs. Yeah, no, he's a good He's been in a ton of stuff. Who was in Office Space that movie? He was the boss? Right, who are you playing office Space? Not even Yeah that guy? Yeah he was, so he was. He was in Scrubs, he was in Platoon. Stop did you know about me?

And movies? Man? Every single day movies. So anyway, and Dean gives a little speech to all the people that come through our cube and and and he tells them about what we do and how we're the real workers and yeah we were. And then and then Terry and Howie and straight Hand they just yuck it up on camera for like thirty minutes and where they were all

day working. So anyway, So John c McGinley, who I've always like, I've always are as an actor, He's wearing a Giant's hat, and I didn't realize he's from New York. He grew up in in actually in Manhattan, notice, and he was one of the Bob's on Office Space anyway. Okay, he was one of the Bob's, all right, So so Giant's hat. So I grew up a Giants fan, grew up in New York. And we started talking and then he went off on Past Infuriance Review and he was like,

I got a question. He's like, what's up with Past Inferrance Review? And it was interesting to hear, like it's just funny because you think about this guy that that is, is this Hollywood actor that they're just fans, right, He's just like a football fan. And he was frustrated with how Past Inference Review was being administered. And we had this long conversation about it, and you know, the call and the Giants Patriots game and and and all of these things, and he, you know, and he was pretty

like worked up about it. And I think, um, so I'm hoping that John c McGinley feels a little bit better about Past in France Review, because, like we talked about earlier, the standard does appear at least when the call is not made on the field that it has changed. So, um, John c McGinley, big football fan, great actor, Maybe hopefully we can reach out and get him on the show. And that was Yeah, it was. It definitely was. You know, you could have gained a listener there. We talked about

it a Good calls every week. John talk about it on Good. Yeah, I'm just not that kind of promoter. I'm not gonna meet people and they, oh, you know what, I got a podcast and Shanks's assistant comes in there. It's yeah, it's just that they're not doing that. But so so the other the other thing that happened to me this week, and you guys we've talked about it on the podcast. Um, I was doing the XFL. I'm helping out the XFL with they're officiating, and I was

doing a reading. We're doing these rules. Um, we're gonna do these things to help people understand the XFL rules because there's some changes. It's it's NFL rule based, but there's some differences. The kickoff is different, overtime is different. So we wanted to do these things that we could post on social media and share with the fans. With diagrams and they wanted me to voice them over. So I spent a couple of hours um at a studio in Santa Monica doing voice over work, which I never

realized how hard it was. And you have a room full of people that are telling you know, read it this way and read it with more of a smile and read it. I'm like, I don't know what that means. But so the the line I had to read about the kickoff, and the line was, um, don't worry, There'll still be plenty of action, There'll still be pretty, There's still be plenty of contact without the huge running starts. So I want to give too much away about the

XFL kickoff, but the line was huge running start. And if you listen to our show, you know that I'm from Long Island and I have a hard time pronouncing that word correctly. I can't pronounce the age. I just say huge, so it's spelled U g E. So I'm doing this line and the guy he goes, Dean, it's great, we love it. It sounds great. Only one note that I had the huge is coming out as huge, like it's just sounding like you're saying us. I'm like, you know it doesn't sound like that. I am saying huge

like it's not it's it's not so us. Well, okay, so let's just say it like you, you know, h and and I literally couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. So I'm trying to say he and I. Every time I say, I'm whispering because that's the only way I can pronounce the age. So I'm like, without the huge running start, and I get it. I literally did seven times without the huge, huge, huge running start. So finally goes all right, so we're gonna change huge to big

and can you do big running start? And I was like yeah, And I felt like Rocky and Rocky too when he was doing when he couldn't read the script, and and I was like, I'm not I'm not a dumb guy. You know. It was unbelievable. I literally he got in my head. I couldn't say. We got to get a speech coach for you for that. If you want to keep that voice over career going, go to the brain of Blandino before we wrap it up. All right, here we go, ready, my little I'm looking Oh, this

is a good one. Pineapple on pizza slash barbecue chicken. Well, this goes to the whole Okay, this goes to the whole conversation of you know, pizza and pineapple on pizza. There's certainly I'm I'm a traditionalist purist. I don't. I'm not. I'm not a pizza snob. And you guys know that I'm from New York, but I will eat pizza from anywhere, one of very few New Yorkers. I never sit there and go, oh, it's not New York pizza. I'm not,

you know, so, but I I know. I guarantee you I know more about pizza than barstool presidente over there. I guarantee you. Okay. But anyway, so the thing is is that a challenge is that a pizza off. We can do it. You know what should do? We should get like one of those people who what what are they like some liais but for like taste buds, and they could they could give like a real rating on the pizza and then we'll see, you know, legit, the legit pizza guy. He has to show on Vice. Um,

the pizza guy he's from. He's I'm Brooklyn, I think, and he has but I think if you can look him up, Travis. He's great. That guy. Um, I've watched him on Vice. They had the Pizza Show. Well, according to Scott in the queue, if if this gets back to bar stool, you're gonna get your door. And I love those guys, I went on part of my take. I love those guys. I just you know, I am a pizza connoisseur, but I'm not a pizza snob. And

so here's the thing. Pineapple, I'm just very I'm very torn with the whole pineapple barbecue chicken like barbecue sauce on pizza, Pineapple on pizza. I just I don't see it. I don't think it tastes good. I don't like. But apparently a lot of people like it. Okay, where you like? I I actually like. I like pineapple and pizza. I can't stop a fan pizza. I think it's great. You get a little sweet with the savory and it's awesome.

It's just it's not the flavor profile. It's the heat hot pineapple, Like would you throw a pineapple on the oven? So I'll make stuffry and I'll throw some pineapple in there. It's it's good. It's like pine about like a nice cold, refreshing, like refreshing pin I get off the water, I get off the boat's yeah to day, give me some pineapple. I'm in, you're gonna rule against me on this one the note and we're definitely. I just don't. I'm look I was. I probably have softened my stance on this,

but I'm not a big getting to you. I'm not a big pineapple so so to me, the pineapple is a but but I dig a barbecue chicken pizza. So Dan Jensen's your guy from Vice? No, no, no, his name is not Dan Jens The Pizza Show, Google the Pizza Show on Vice. I got a couple of guys here sat Dan Jensen. Bad, is it? I don't think it is Dan Jansen. Was it wasn't Dan Jansen, like the guy the Decatholey. So give us the top three California pizzas, real quick California pizza that I've been to.

I'll tell you what. There's Joe's in Santa Monica that is very New York style that I like. And again I'm not I'm not opposed to other styles of pizza. I just that's what I grew up with. And Joe's in Santa Monica is the close just in this area that I've seen. You know, by the slice, you can go in, you get a couple of slices. It's has that has that pizzeria pizza parlor feel. Um. I'm honestly, Fresh Brothers is not bad for for what it is

Fresh kids, right, Fresh Brothers. My kids love Fresh Brothers. Fresh Brothers for the the kind of the delivery, you know, the Domino's Pizza Hut style. Fresh Brothers just really is. I think you can change Fresh Brothers. Fresh Brothers and yeah, great, I'll tell you. And they've got a kilo crust now too. For us that are to say, the pizza that is really that I really like is Tower twelve and Hermosa Beach. Tower twelve does a a parmesan. Yeah, but it's got

parmesan like on it. It's a pizza, but the crust has We've got a cheese and parmesan. It's just really really good. Tara twelve Table it's not good pizza is also in Hermosa Beach. But I'm not gonna name. No, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna throw anybody down under the bush. Yeah, I'm not gonna throw anybody in the bus. I'm just saying her most of Beach, every pizzeri and homost of Beach. Isn't that great? Okay? What's the guy? What's his name? Frank? Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, the other guy,

Dan Jensen vised a story on him. He's only eating pizza for the last twenty five years. He's gonna so we're gonna talk about him next week. All right, what that's our show? Thanks for listening. Was the matchup that's when it started with Lee High. This has been Good Calls with Dean Blandino. Please follow me on Twitter at Dean Blandino on Instagram at being dop Blendino. Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter, apples podcast, and be sure to rate our podcast on the I heart Radio app

and on Apple Podcasts. Good Calls with Dean Blandino is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H