​BONUS: The Real Buford Pusser | Part 3

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What you're about to listen to is a special two-part follow-up on a story from season four, The Real Buford Pusser. If you haven't listened to parts one and two of this story, I encourage you to go back and listen to those. They're Episodes 7 and 8 of Season 4. And some more good news. Season 5 of Gone South is set to premiere in February. Until then, I hope you enjoy these episodes and any other episodes from Seasons 1 through 4.

that you might have missed along the way. As always, thank you for listening to Gone South. We did a pair of episodes about a man named Buford Pusser. Buford was a former sheriff in McNary County, Tennessee, whose life story became the basis of a series of Hollywood movies called Walking Tall. In the popular legend of Buford's life, he was a tough-on-crime sheriff who, during the early 1960s, took it upon himself to clean up the Tennessee-Mississippi state line.

which was rife with moonshining, gambling, and prostitution. But what made Buford famous was an incident that took place on August 12, 1967. Early that morning, according to the story Buford told, He and his wife Pauline were responding to a disturbance call at a roadhouse across town when a car full of men ambushed them. Buford took a bullet to the face. Pauline was shot in the head and killed.

Her killer was never found, and her death was never solved. But according to the legend, Buford, with the aid of some others, tracked down and killed several of the men he thought were responsible for his wife's murder. Buford died in a car crash a few years later, but his story, as depicted in the Walking Tall movies, made him into a kind of national folk hero. He inspired a generation of men to go into law enforcement.

Dwayne The Rock Johnson, who starred in a 2004 remake of Walking Tall, considered Buford his idol. But in the winter of 2024, a shocking news story appeared in the Tennessean newspaper. It announced that the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation had just exhumed Pauline Pusser's body more than 56 years after her death. According to the article,

The TBI had gotten a new tip showing that an autopsy was never performed on Pauline's body. With the family's support, agents had requested the exhumation to answer what they called critical questions. and to gather evidence that might identify who was responsible for her death. The article didn't come out and say Buford was the lead suspect in his wife's murder, but that's what it implied.

An Arkansas man named Mike Elam, who provided information to the TBI, said the main question investigators had to answer is whether the trajectory of the bullets matched the story Buford told. Did Buford make up the story of what happened to his wife that morning? And if he did, was it Buford who shot her in the head?

We talked to Mike Elam for the two episodes we did about Buford and Pauline last year, and we came away all but convinced that Buford had played some kind of role in Pauline's death. But the autopsy results... which could help determine whether Buford pulled the trigger, were still pending. Then, in May of this year, Mike Elam called with some news. He said the TBI was planning to announce the autopsy findings.

and they were going to do it on the first day of the 37th annual Buford Pusser Festival in Adamsville, Tennessee, where Buford lived most of his life. In honor of the occasion,

Mike would be leading a bus tour of key Buford Pusser sites in the area. Did we want to come along? We booked a trip to Adamsville that night. I'm Jed Lipinski. This is Gone South. A few days before our trip to Adamsville, Tennessee, to learn the results of Pauline Pusser's autopsy, I got another call from Mike Elam. As it happened, the TBI would not be announcing the results after all, Mike said.

Agents had become consumed with a retrial in the murder of Holly Bobo, a 20-year-old nursing student from Tennessee who was abducted outside her home in 2011 and later found dead. Mike was disappointed. but his bus tour of Buford Pusser's sites was still on. He figured seeing the sites up close might deepen our understanding of the Buford saga and show why he believes Buford killed his wife. We decided to stick with the plan.

For as long as he's been investigating the Buford Pusser legend, Mike Elam has been accused of having an agenda. He runs a YouTube channel and has self-published a book called Buford Pusser, The Other Story. A lot of people from Adamsville say Mike is trying to cash in by spreading lies about Buford. But Mike insists that he's simply searching for the truth, and the truth, he says, has no agenda. For that reason,

He calls his tour of Buford's site's The Truth Has No Agenda Tour. The slogan stretches across the side of the bus. But when we met Mike at the McNary County Courthouse one morning in May, we discovered that, during the night, Someone had thrown a rock through one of the bus's windows. And for some reason, the bus wouldn't start. The bus driver, a gruff local guy in his 70s named Dennis, had his head under the hood trying to fix it.

but he wasn't making much progress. Instead, the bus tour turned into a caravan, with Mike, his wife Connie, and us in the lead, and a dozen cars trailing behind. Caught my attention, too, with my, because I listen to all this stuff, but I hear so much of, you know, kind of like, oh, I'm over it all. Yes. But I'm sitting there. I stay up late, real late. You do, like, until late.

Our first stop was Adamsville City Park. otherwise known as Buford Pusser Memorial Park, the site of the Buford Pusser Festival, which was scheduled to start that afternoon. I guess Adamsville's a little concerned. They've already started taking Buford's name off of certain things. Have they? Like what? Police cars, for one thing. His name was on police cars? At one point in time.

And they put out a letter saying if the TBI's report and Mark Davidson's statement don't go well with the legend that they're going to be removing his name from... Other things here in the water in town the water tower you guys the water towers there It has a silt. Well, there it is. I don't know if you'll be able to look just the one side Mike was right

High above Buford Pusser Memorial Park was a water tower emblazoned with Buford Pusser's name and silhouette and the words, Walking Tall in Adamsville. It was one of many Buford Pusser-named landmarks in the city. like the stretch of Highway 64 in McNary County, which the Tennessee legislature designated the Buford-Pusser Highway in 1999, or the sign as you enter Adamsville, which reads, Welcome to Adamsville.

home of Sheriff Buford Pusser, or the Buford Pusser Home and Museum, where Buford lived in his final days, and which sits on Pusser Street. I wondered if the autopsy results proved that Buford killed his wife. Would the city be forced to rename all these things? Or would residents of the city, still in thrall to the Beaufort legend, push back and argue for some of them to remain? Before long,

We passed the Buford Pusser Home and Museum, a squat, one-story brick house with an American flag flying out front. That's the museum there? Yeah. And they just rebuilt a huge thing. Same basic footprint. It's larger now than it was when... Sorry, that was where he was living when the ambush happened? Yeah, when he got the call to go out. This call, this is where he lived. So this is the route.

Buford was at this house when he supposedly got a call around 4.30am about a disturbance at a local beer joint called Hollis Jordan's Tavern. In our earlier episodes, Mike Elam who'd worked as a sheriff's deputy back in Arkansas, had found it suspicious that Buford would bring his wife on an early morning disturbance call. No self-respecting cop would do such a thing, he said. Stranger still.

was the fact that Buford could have gotten to Hollis Jordan's rather quickly by jumping on the highway. But Buford didn't take the highway. Instead, as he admitted to the cops, he took a series of winding country roads. That sounded pretty suspicious, but it wasn't until we drove the route ourselves that I understood how suspicious it really was. So he's coming all this way that morning. Yeah. It's a long drive.

Longer than I thought already. Well, you know, when you could have taken 64 and gone down 45 and you're there. Right. And instead, and you have to keep in mind, a lot of these roads that we're going to be on were not paved. They were dirt. Right. I couldn't understand that because he was always proud of his cars, and why drive one on that kind of a route if you didn't have to? When Mike first started investigating the Buford Pusser legend 25 years ago, his wife Connie was skeptical.

And Mike was getting so many death threats from people in Adamsville, Connie didn't feel comfortable joining him on his trips here. But she eventually came around. It was driving this route that convinced her Buford had probably killed Pauline that day. First time I felt safe enough to... get to some of this area it just made the arrow make my neck stand up and I'm like you have got to write a book. I mean this was the thing that really convinced me and scared me.

The route went on and on. A right turn, then a left, then another right. It became obvious that in taking this route... Buford had no intention of responding to a disturbance call. And in the meantime, we're still going. This is the route. I mean, this is the most convoluted route. Yeah. The only thing I can figure is he was looking for seclusion. Right. As we drove, Mike kept pointing out paved roads that would have taken Buford straight to Hollis Jordan's tavern.

But Buford continued to take back roads. I obviously had no concept that it was this long, this route. It makes absolutely no sense. Isn't this crazy? It makes absolutely no sense. I mean, it's crazy.

Now we're taking a left again. It's like, what? What? They believed this story. A few questions occurred to us at this point. The obvious one was... What was the real reason Buford decided to drive this insanely convoluted route at 4.30 a.m. on the morning of August 12, 1967? As we explained in those earlier episodes,

One of Pauline's friends claimed she'd heard a gunshot inside Buford's house the night of the ambush. Buford's stepdaughter told Mike she later saw Buford dragging Pauline's unconscious body across the grass and into the car. a few hours before the supposed ambush occurred. Mike and Connie's theory is that Pauline, who is known to carry a small caliber gun in her purse, may have been the one who fired the shot.

Buford's gunshot wound was not from a small-caliber gun, so she didn't shoot him. Perhaps it was a warning shot. Either way, Mike and Connie believe that shortly after the gun went off, Buford knocked Pauline out. which would explain why he was dragging her unconscious body across the grass. The idea would be, the theory, maybe, is that he punches her, maybe knocks her unconscious, because he's gigantic and she's small.

Puts her in the car. She's still unconscious. And he's driving this route for like half an hour. Yep. And he's trying to find a place to kill her. That's the idea. Or has already set up. place a dumper whatever there might have been another person involved in other words Mike and Connie believe that Buford drove this route because he was trying to find a discreet place to kill his wife. Or, a second theory, that he was driving to a predetermined location where he and other individuals

helped him stage a fake ambush that left Pauline dead and Buford with a bullet wound to the face. This second theory would have involved a lot more coordination and a lifetime of secrecy on the part of Buford's accomplices. And of course, there's no evidence that he had help. I tend to agree with their first theory, that Buford and Pauline had gotten into a fight that left Pauline unconscious and that Buford then drove these back roads until he found a nice secluded spot to kill her.

Finally, after 45 minutes of driving McNary County back roads, Mike Elam's caravan tour of Buford Pusser sites reached its first official stop. We'd arrived at what's known as the first ambush site. We knew Buford's story, that he was followed and sprayed with bullets that killed his wife and injured him. What we didn't know is that someone on our tour was one of the first people to arrive at the crime scene.

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As they were going down through here, the car pulled up right in through here somewhere, turned on their headlights, and there was two shots fired. And one hit Pauline in the head, wounding her. Yeah, wounding her. And he said that she reached over, grabbed a hold of him, you know, was gasping for air and kind of making a gurgling type noise. She was leaning into him. Yeah.

And he couldn't get over here to his gun. And so he just hit the gas and tried to lose him. The sight is unremarkable. A lonely two-lane road with no houses in view. A large white sign with a few bullet holes in it reads, 12th of August ambush site of Sheriff Buford and Pauline Pusser. The cars in the caravan behind us all stopped and everyone got out.

After the photo, we continued to the second ambush site a few miles down the road. A historic marker notes that Buford stopped here to check his wife's injuries, at which point the car full of men returned and began firing into the sheriff's car again. Pauline was shot in the head and killed, while Buford was shot in the face.

suffering severe bone and tissue damage, the marker says. Investigators would later find 14 spent .30 caliber cartridges on the road. We got out and looked around. Dennis... The tour bus driver, who'd been unable to fix the bus earlier that morning, was holding forth to a small crowd. It turned out that Dennis wasn't just the bus driver. He claims to have been the first person to arrive at the second ambush site that morning.

before the cops even got there. Dennis was saying that he'd pulled up on his motorcycle, and what he saw conflicted with the early reports of what had happened to Buford and Pauline. That's how far away the showcases were? Yeah, how could they be here in the middle? His car, here's the car. Right. How could they be shooting here? be shell casings in a straight line under here. I mean, it's impossible. And they had to be hanging out of the car. They'd be over there. Right. The car would be here.

Dennis seemed like a good resource.

But it was too loud, and Dennis was too popular, to interview him there on the spot. After the tour, we sat down with him inside an empty courtroom at the McNary County Courthouse, one floor above Buford's old office. Tell us, first of all, what your name is and who you are, and then your connection to the Hathcock family. Well, I'm Dennis Hathcock.

W. O. Hathcock's son that had the plantation club, and he had some other businesses, but that's what he's, I guess, the most famous or infamous, whichever way you want to say it. According to the Buford Pusser legend, perpetuated in The Walking Tall movies and books like The Stateline Mob, authored by Buford's biographer W.R. Morris, Dennis' family were members of the Stateline Mob.

His father, W.O. Hathcock, owned the Plantation Club, which reportedly drew crowds for gambling, bootleg liquor, and prostitution. His aunt, Louise Hathcock, ran the Shamrock Motel and Bar. which also dabbled in illicit activities. Buford's supposed mission was to shut the Hathcocks down. But there's an alternative version of this history, one in which Buford is the gangster and the owners of the clubs his unwitting victims.

This is the version Dennis Hathcock knows. Not long after Buford became sheriff in 1964, at the age of 26, Dennis says Buford robbed and nearly killed his father during a raid on the plantation club. I've heard people ask him, say, W.O., why did Buford Pusser have such hatred for you? He said, I'll be damned if I know. I have no idea. I'd never seen the freaky looking.

S.O.B. till that night. In a more famous encounter, Buford shot and killed Dennis' aunt, Louise, in February of 1966, a year and a half before the alleged ambush took place.

Legend has it that Louise was drunk and fired a shot at Buford, who shot back and killed her in self-defense. But as usual, there's more to the story. To begin with... Dennis says Buford was demanding $1,500 a month from Louise just to keep her nightclub open. I mean, when he was running for sheriff, they all, first thing they'd do is hit all the joints and they'd hit the state line first.

Let you know that they could be bought. They wanted your support. Well, she'd been paying him ever since he got elected. And every so often, he'd raise it. This state of affairs worked for a while because of the crazy liquor laws in Mississippi and Tennessee. Liquor was illegal in both states, but the liquor laws were less enforced in Mississippi.

which meant that clubs on the state line could sell bootleg whiskey more openly while their Tennessee counterparts faced raids, arrests, and the threat of losing their licenses. The imbalance made places like the Shamrock and the Plantation Club especially profitable. But the good times didn't last. In 1966, Tennessee counties began voting to legalize hard liquor. Suddenly,

People no longer had to drive out to the state line for a drink. They could buy it legally back home. Overnight, the state line clubs lost their edge. Louise could no longer afford to pay what Buford was charging her. He had come down there and told her he was raising it again. She told her, I can't pay it. I cannot pay that kind of money. He threatened her. She threatened him. She threatened him with it.

making a call to some people in nashville that she knew that was a mistake just like pauline she threatened him mistake The next thing, he come down there the next morning and killed her. That bull about her pulling a pistol on him, that's the biggest bunch of craps ever. What did you hear happened? What did you hear the real story about? The real story. My dad went and dug her teeth out of the carpet. She was on the floor when they shot her.

And you always hear about how he shot her and she spun around. The entry wounds were in her back. They weren't in the front like he wanted you to believe. What Dennis is saying here is accurate. Louise Hathcock's autopsy report indicates she sustained two gunshots that entered through her back, as well as a gunshot to the head. 16 you were 16 years old yeah so you're 16 at that time right your aunt has just been murdered by Buford

Your father had been nearly killed but beat severely by him a year or two, some years before. What did that cause you to think Buford Pusser was? Well, I certainly wasn't a big fan. I knew what he was from being 16 and 17, knowing about the women he was going with. I knew about a lot of the steals. If you paid him, you run the steal.

If you didn't, you got busted. The reason a lot of people didn't know about that is like I was talking about. If you're church-going people, you're not out at 1 and 2 o'clock in the morning. Most of them aren't unless you're working at that time. Well, being a young, wild heathen, I was out and I knew what he was doing at that time of the morning.

You see, he'll talk about he didn't get out till 11 and 12 o'clock at night. And that's true. That's about you never seen him during the day hardly. Dennis may not have been a big fan of Buford Pusser. But like a lot of young men in McNary County in the 60s, he was fixated with the young sheriff. So fixated that he and a friend began secretly following Buford around at night. In fact, Dennis says, He was following Buford the very night that Pauline was killed.

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In Dennis Hathcock's version of events, Buford Pusser was having an affair with a high school-aged friend of his. And Dennis did not approve. We were real very, very close. I asked her one time, I said, what in the hell are you doing messing with your pusser? Oh, I'm not. I said, I know you are. I mean, I know where you all were, but I don't know what you did. They had this certain meeting place.

Certain time routine. So you would follow them around? Him. Him more so than her. Dennis says Buford and his friend's routine... involved meeting at a park near the state maintenance lot. Dennis said he and his pal Johnny would spy on Buford behind a giant pile of gravel the state used to resurface the roads. But the night of the supposed ambush...

Dennis says he saw Buford do something weird. That particular night, there's something a little bit different. She made the deal around, but when she parked, here come Pusser, but he was in a big hurry and run in. pulled up right up beside her and said get your ass out of here right now and i mean right now and you could tell he was mad about something and so she cranked up the car and took off

Not long after she left, Dennis says he saw another car, one with Oklahoma plates, pull into the parking lot. He watched Buford open the trunk of his car, take out two guns, and place them into the trunk of the other car. One of them was kind of like a military weapon. You could tell. But I mean, I have no idea. It was the stock on it. I can remember that. And the other one was more like a...

A hunting rifle or a shotgun or something. It was a longer one. They put it over another one. Closed the trunks. They didn't say nothing hardly to each other. That car took off. Pusser took off, went towards Selmer. The other car went right back across Highway 45 toward Raymer. And you guys are watching all this, you and your friends? Oh, watching all of it. Dennis says he and his friend Johnny

jumped onto his motorcycle and followed Buford. They watched him pull into a Phillips 66 gas station where he used the restroom and made a phone call before stumbling back to his car. And he was so screwed up and high, he barely could walk. He took off wide open sideways, a slide, and went across that bridge out there.

And I told Johnny, I said, well, I guess the show's over. I need to go on home. By that time, I guess it was about 2 o'clock in the morning, maybe 2.30. Pretty late. I told Johnny, I said, I need to get on home. Let's go.

Dennis says he drove back home and went to sleep. A few hours later, his grandfather woke him up to say his friend Johnny was on the phone. He said, I don't know, but he said it was a matter of life and death that he had to talk to you. I got up, went in there. I said, what is it? What do you want? He said, they ambushed Buford last night. Kill Pauline and they don't think he's going to live. Apparently, a deputy had visited Johnny's house that morning and told his father, a local cop.

that a gang of thugs had ambushed Buford and Pauline at around 4.30 a.m. I said, well, where is this supposed to have happened? They said, over on New Hope Road. I said, well, I tell you what, I'm just putting my pants on here and my shirt. I'll ride over there and see if that's true, what's over there. Dennis says he got back on his motorcycle and floored it to New Hope Road. A few minutes later...

He spotted a sheriff's deputy he knew named R.C. Matlock examining the roadway. When I rode up, R.C. said, Little Haycock, what the hell are you doing here? I said, well, the question is, what the hell are you doing here? They said, I ambushed Buford here last night, and he's on his way to the Med. They don't think he's going to live, and they killed Pauline. I said, where did he happen? He said, right here.

Right on this bridge. And I said, I'm sitting there right at it. I said, what makes you think that? They said, can you not see that glass over there? It's a little pile of glass. About like you broke a vent window out. I said, yeah. And he said, it'll happen right here. I said, all you're going by is a pile of glass? He said, no. I said, Buford told Petey.

when they was putting him in the ambulance to take him to the med, that this is where it happened. The Petey Dennis just mentioned is Petey Plunk, Buford's most trusted deputy. Dennis was skeptical of the story. It didn't look like the scene of an ambush. But R.C. Matlock wasn't inclined to let a teenage member of the Hathcock clan snoop around an active crime scene. He said, you better get your ass out of here right now, and I mean it. Get out of here. You don't need to be here.

There are a bunch of them coming down here. I said, a bunch of who? He said, all kinds of highway patrol and everything. They're on their way here right now. So Dennis left. He drove a few miles down the road when he stopped again. He noticed a large pile of glass and more than a dozen shell casings scattered across the pavement. Then he spotted something in the ditch on the side of the road. Got off my motorcycle. I looked over there in the ditch.

And there was, I guess I automatically realized it was the top of her head. It was a piece of skull. white skull about that big around and it had her scalp still attached to it and that scalp She had platinum blonde hair, and that platinum blonde hair was out to the sides of it that far. clotted blood, you know, all in it and everything. And what are you thinking at that time? I didn't know what to think. Dennis had just stumbled across the second ambush site.

From what he could tell, he was the first one on the scene. He immediately drove back to the first ambush site to alert Deputy Matlock. But Matlock wasn't in the mood. And when I come up on RC again, I... pulled up there and little haycock i told you to get your ass out of here and i mean it they're on the way they'll be here at any time they should be coming i said listen rc this is not where they sat

It's on down the road here. He said, I don't care what you say. This is what Buford told Petey when they was taking him, putting him in the ambulance to go to the med. I said, okay. Dennis resigned, stood off to the side of the road as the reinforcements showed up. For an hour or so, he watched them comb over the first ambush site.

before moving down the road to the second site. Dennis followed, but no one bothered to take his statement. And I said, well, they don't need me, and nobody asked me about nothing. I left and went on down to the highway and rode back.

Nobody ever asked me another word about it. Dennis said he later drove to the FBI's office in Jackson and tried to tell an agent there what he'd seen. But he said the agent wasn't interested. Like everyone else in McNary County, Dennis soon learned the full story of what Buford said happened that night. Specifically, he learned that the attackers had opened fire on Buford's Plymouth at the second location.

and killed Pauline while she sat beside Buford in the passenger seat. But that part of Buford's story made no sense to Dennis based on what he'd seen with his own eyes. You'd seen the crime scene firsthand before anyone else. And did you think in the days and weeks after what... Buford is saying happened didn't really happen. Something else happened. I knew for a fact Ray Charles, if he'd have been there, would have known what he was telling wasn't true. For one thing.

The position of the shell casings did not suggest that the bullets had been fired from a vehicle. To Dennis, they suggested they'd been fired by someone walking along the side of the road. By someone, in other words,

who wanted to make it seem like an ambush had taken place. It had to be somebody walking for them to be placed like they were placed down through there. Was there something else that... contradicted his story that you saw there is now i didn't at the time i saw it but it didn't dawn on me that blood that's all over the door over there you can see where her head was laying

Well, he claims that her head was laying in his lap. If her head was laying in his lap, how in the hell did her brains and the top of her head get blowed out the window over there? So then just zooming forward, fast forwarding, you see this new narrative or this other narrative take shape. This narrative that there was an ambush.

by these guys from the Dixie Mafia or the state line. And it's a very elaborate story and it doesn't really make sense to you, but it gains traction. It turns into some songs and then a book and then a movie. and then more movies. And as that's happening, and knowing what he'd done to members of your family, what are you thinking as all that comes out? I've been praying that exactly what's happening right now would happen.

Which is what? The truth would come out. I should say here that Dennis Hathcock is obviously not a neutral observer. Buford Pusser killed his aunt and almost killed his dad. By his own admission, Dennis did not think highly of Buford Pusser. Also, certain elements of his story are impossible to verify. Did Buford really put two rifles into the trunk of another man's car the night of the ambush?

And if so, why? Was that man an accomplice or something else? But Dennis' description of the two ambush sites, including the shell casings and the piece of Pauline's scalp in the ditch. match the evidence found at the scenes. After speaking with Dennis Hathcock, we stayed in Adamsville for a few more days. We went to the Buford Pusser Festival. We visited the Roadside Memorial.

marking the spot where Buford died on August 21, 1974, after his car, which was traveling at an estimated 130 miles per hour, flipped over and crashed into an embankment, killing him instantly. We saw several men wearing t-shirts with a famous quote attributed to Buford. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong, no matter who you are. Summer dragged on with no word about Pauline's autopsy results.

I started to think that maybe there would be no announcement, that the results of the autopsy had proved inconclusive and didn't warrant a formal press conference. But then, one day in late August, the news finally broke. It's been said that the dead cannot cry out for justice. It is the duty of the living to do so. In this case, that duty has been carried out 58 years later. That's next time on Gone South.

If you have information, story tips, or feedback you'd like to share with the Gone South team, please email us at gonesouthpodcast at gmail.com. That's gonesouthpodcast at gmail.com. For bonus content, you can follow us on Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram at GoneSouthPodcast. You can also sign up for our newsletter on Substack at GoneSouth with Jed Lipinski. GoneSouth is an Odyssey original podcast.

It's created, written, and narrated by me, Jed Lipinski. Our executive producers are Leah Reese Dennis, Maddie Sprunkheiser, and Lloyd Lockridge. Our story editor is Katie Mingle. Gone South is edited, mixed, and mastered by Chris Basil. Production support from Ian Mont and Sean Cherry. Special thanks to Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff.

Thank you for listening to Gone South. What's up, guys? It's Candace Dillard Bassett, former Real Housewife of Potomac. And I'm Michael Arsenault, author of the New York Times bestseller, I Can't Date Jesus. And this is Undomesticated, the podcast where we aren't just saying the quiet parts out loud. We're putting it all on the kitchen table and inviting you to the function. If you're ready for some bold takes and a little bit of chaos.

Welcome to Undomesticated. Follow and listen to Undomesticated, available wherever you get your podcasts.