Wars of the Roses: Castles & Guns

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Welcome to this episode of Gone Medieval from History Hit. I'm Matt Lewis. Now, castles and cannons are perhaps the two most recognisable medieval instruments of conflict, one built to defend and the other to attack. Castles still dominate parts of the landscape today, and the medieval period saw the birth of gunpowder weapons that would go on to revolutionise warfare. I'm lucky to be joined today by Dr Dan Spencer, whose book, The Castles in the Wars of the Roses,

examines the role of these great buildings during the Civil War of the 15th century. Dan is also an expert on the development of gunpowder weapons, so I'm really looking forward to chatting through attack and defence in the medieval period. Thank you very much for joining us, Dan.

Great to be on the show. Thank you. Right, so let's get cracking. Let's get really stuck into some castles. And when I think Wars of the Roses, to be honest, I think one of the most famous and probably fascinating castles during the Wars of the Roses is Harlech Castle on the West Wales coast.

Can you tell us about the siege there and why it lasted so long? It's pretty remarkable for how long it endured. Sure. I think to understand the importance of Harlick during the wars to Rose, I think it's first important to say a little bit about Picasso itself. So it's one of the great castles built by Edward I in the late 13th century to secure his conquest of North Wales. And it had very strong natural and man-made fortifications. So in terms of its situation...

It's located on a rocky crag overlooking the sea, and it has what's called concentric fortifications. So you have a lower outer wall enclosing a taller inner wall, surrounded by a ditch and could be resupplied by sea. It's not obvious at all if you visit Harlech now, but as the sea has received it a great deal, but in the Middle Ages, supplies could be brought in directly via the Watergate.

And this together with its isolated occasion on the edge of Snowdonia meant that it was a very difficult place to approach or attack. And unlike many other castles in the kingdom, it was regularly garrisoned, small force and men, and being kept in a good state of repair in the 1450s. In terms of Harlock's involvement in the Walls of the Roses, it begins in 1460.

In the aftermath of the Lancastrian defeat at the Battle of Norhampton, when Queen Margaret and her son Prince Edward took refuge in the castle, after a rather long and perilous journey across Wales, during which they were robbed of their possessions.

When they arrived at Harlech, they were said to have received a warm reception and many gifts. And it appears that during their stay, they conferred the constableship of the castle on to a member of the local gentry. David App, the Aean, App, Aeanion. What happens... was that subsequently Yorkists conquered the rest of Wales from the summer of 1461 to the spring of 1462, but David continued to hold the castle in the name of Henry VI. And we know this from the Parliament Rule of 1461.

which is the enrolled recording of Parliament, which states that the inhabitants of the region were suffering at the hands of the garrison. It was said to have imprisoned and robbed people as if it were a land at war. Now, the period from 1461 to 1408 has often been characterised as a Yorkist siege of Harbrooke, but in fact, this is not quite correct. The Yorkists did make periodic attempts to capture the castle, such as in 1466, when John ticked off.

Earl of Wusser was allocated this task, but poor weather conditions and the remoteness of Harlech led to the exposition being abandoned. Instead, for much of this period, the York authorities relied upon sending demands for Harlech to be surrendered by its defenders. with dire threats if they did not comply. These empty threats were ignored by the garrison. But the fame of York is to eliminate this Lancashire in outposts.

by committing sufficient resources did have consequences, as it was responsible for contributing towards unrest and cashing plots in Wales throughout the 1460s. And what finally prompted Edward the 4th of his lieutenant to deal with this running saw was a response to the actions of Jasper Tudor, who in the summer of 1468 landed near to Harlech with small forts in France.

and led a great raid across Wales, culminating in the sack and burning of the town of Denbigh in the north-east. So in response, William Law Herbert assembled a large army to the feet of Lancastrians, with artillery for a siege provided from the Tower of London.

And what appears to happen is that two Yorkist armies converged on Harlech, one force led by his brother, Sir Richard Herbert, defeating Jasper's army in battle, with Lord Herbert then advancing on Harlech, which David surrendered after a short siege.

I guess that episode in 1468 probably highlighted the dangers of Harlech still being there because Jasper Tudor, you know, reasonably popular in Wales and able to go directly to that base that was sat there waiting to receive him to cause further trouble. So it was kind of a backdoor.

into Wales and into England for the Lancastrian cause, that the Yorkies couldn't really afford to just leave open forever? No, I mean, it's kind of, it seems slightly odd that they did leave it, you know, Harlech in Lancastrian hands for as long as they did, but I suppose it sort of shows...

how many other problems that Edward was having, say, in the north of England. I guess also it perhaps reflects on William Lord Herbert and the fact that even though he was effectively running Wales for Edward, it seemingly...

He didn't do a great job of it in the northwest of the country. Yeah, even for him, there were parts that were beyond his reach, I guess. And I guess being... I've been to Harlet Castle and it's fantastic there, although walking on the walls when it's windy is pretty perilous because there's no barrier on the inside of the walls, is there?

Feel like you're going to get blown off all the time? No, no, exactly. I guess in those days when the sea was so much closer, I could see it would be even more of a remote and sort of forbidding place, I suppose.

Yeah, and it's hard to imagine, but as you say, because the sea's receded quite a long way if you go to it now, but when the sea was right up there against the water gate, I guess it makes resupplying it much easier for those holding out inside as well if the ship can come in with supplies quite easily. Exactly.

And I suppose from there you have links to all sorts of places, so the rest of Wales, Ireland, Scotland. So there was lots of potential for goods and men to be brought into the castle. So how did they eventually bring about the end of the... Is siege the right word for what happened at Harlech or sporadic attempts to take it away from the Lancastrians, but how was it eventually won up?

for the Yorkists? Well, it was effectively when the two herbits, I suppose, they effectively allocated enough resources to capture it. So I suppose it was the feat of Jasper's army in battle. And then the fact that they besieged the castle with lots of artillery. So we don't know much about the siege, other than that at least one Yorkish gentleman was killed by gunshot. So we know that there was at least some military action going on.

But I think effectively by this point, David realised that the game was up and that there was no viability of holding out for any longer. And the kind of rules of siege warfare meant that if you didn't surrender at the right time, you were in severe danger of losing your life.

when you lost it anyway. I think in the case of Harlach, even after they did surrender, the garrison were imprisoned. I think some of the petty captains were executed. But of course, if the castle had been stormed, then, you know... the likes of all of the garrison would have potentially been, you know, risked being executed out of hand. So after Edward IV becomes king in 1461, I associate that period in the immediate aftermath of his victories with trying to subdue the far north of England.

So he spends a lot of time up there with the Lancastrians having crossed over the border into Scotland. And that period seems to involve a lot of sieges and castles changing hands regularly in the north. So what were some of the prominent...

castles during that period that caused problems for Edward and opportunities for the Lancastrians? There were quite a few up there. So the context and the reason why the north of England, you know, posed this problem for the Yorkers was this very militarised border region. So there were lots of castles which kept in a very good state of defence. And it's because the inhabitants were often engaged in warfare with the Scots.

And another dimension is there's a feud between two of the most important families, the Nevels and the Perses. So actually, I suppose, the hostilities precede the outbreak of the Wars of the Roses as such in some ways. And Northumberland in particular was a county dominated by the very powerful Percy Earls of Northumberland. In terms of the major castles, I mean, the ones that probably feature the most are ones like Annick, Bambourg, Dunstanborough and...

So it's striking that even after Edward's, you know, quite overwhelming victory at Toughton in 1461, that many people in Northumberland and, let's say, Cumberland and whatnot remained loyal to the cause of Henry VI. And what's the other dimension in the world is the proximity to the Scottish border. So following Towton, the Lancashirean leadership, Hemingway VI, Queen Marker, etc., they fled over the border to Scotland, whereby they agreed a military alliance with the Scottish government.

in return for handing over various border settlements, such as Berwick-upon-Tweed, which was handed over to the Scots, and Carlisle, which they were unable to do so. Scottish support was really important for the Lancastrians and it allowed them to regain control of some of these castles, such as Annick and Bambourgh and Dunstanborough. And between the years 1461 and 1404, these castles changed hands quite a few times between the two sides.

In terms of my favourite episodes from these campaigns, I'll just go through a few of those. One of them is the siege of Annick Castle in the winter of 1462-3. So the castle was under siege by a far superior Yorkist army.

And with food supplies running low, it seemed only a matter of time before defenders would have to capitulate, as had their comrades at Bamber and Dunstanbury. As the siege continued throughout the depths of winter, the Scottish army led by George Douglas, Earl of Angus marched to their rescue. And in early January 1463, the Scots arrived in the vicinity of Annick, which threw the Yorkists into disarray. And they withdrew a short distance away. And this was supposedly so they could...

Adopt a more superposition but offering battle. And their withdrawal allowed some members of the garrison to sally out to join forces with their rescuers. Yet the Scots, rather than confronting the Yorkists, then actually retreated all the way back. across the border to Scotland, leaving the remaining members of the garrison who hadn't had the foresight to leave the castle to surrender under terms. I think it's because the Scots had been defeated by the Yorkers before. So, for example...

battle at Carlisle in 1461 so perhaps they were a bit worried about you know fighting the Yorkists I think because they were also the Yorkists did have a large force but there's a great quote from the Walker of Chronicus who actually says that they thought the Scots had missed an opportunity

defeat the Yorkists because their soldiers had lain so long in the field and were grieved for cold and rain that they had no courage to fight. So they'd literally been suffering. I guess Northumberland can be quite a cold place, particularly in December and January, so it must have been...

very hard for the soldiers out in the open to deal with that. Yeah, and do you think Edward IV's military reputation plays into this? So obviously they've won that massive victory at Towton, Edward remains undefeated on the battlefield.

throughout his active period in the Wars of the Roses. Do you think there's an element of the Scots come down and, I don't know, they lose their bottle when they get there at the thought that Edward might confront them? Or do you think that the Scots came down just to try and relieve the garrison and get them out of the castle?

There was a misunderstanding that it was a rescue party who were coming to lift the siege. Yeah, that's a great point, actually. It could well have been that. I think partly the reputation of Yorkus. I mean, Edward wasn't actually in the North at this time.

The sieges had been sort of undertaken by the Nevels. So the Earl of Warwick was kind of overseeing all this. I think you're right. It could have well just been seen as a rescue mission. I guess by this point, in fact, and it was the last remaining.

Lancasterine Castle in Northumberland this particular period so I suppose by this point you could say well what really could they have done more I suppose other than fight the Yorkists but as they'd been defeated by them before perhaps you know they were a bit wary of of doing this.

And is there one episode, is it Bambera Castle, where they hold out, cannons are fired, and one of the men in charge of, is it Bambera Castle, is hit through the window of his apartment? Yes. We have a couple of accounts of the siege of Bambrough Castle, because that's effectively the final showdown of the Lancastrians in Northumberland in 1464. So, as I mentioned before, the castle has changed hands multiple times, but then...

In 1464, the Yorkists finally defeated the Lancastrians at the Battle of Hedgley Moor and Hexham. And on previous occasions, Edward had been quite merciful towards the Lancastrians, but on this occasion, he effectively had, you know, leading prisoners executed. So basically the surviving Lancastrians took refuge in Banborough Castle. We have this really wonderfully detailed account of the siege, which actually skips lots of details about how the siege took place.

And he explains that it started with two heralds being sent to offer pardons to all members of the garrison, except for two particular individuals, one of which was Sir Ralph Gray, who had been a committed Yorkist until he... changed sides and betrayed Annick to the Lancastrians. So basically he was, there was no hope for mercy for him. Unsurprisingly, you know, the Lancastrian commanders, because I suppose there was nothing in it for them to surrender, they decide.

And in fact, in this account, they actually say that they actually threaten to execute members of the garrison if they have to use gunfire against the walls of the castle because... effectively because it was a very valuable possession of the king. I suppose the downside of using artillery in this situation is that, okay, it helps you capture a place, but then again, if it's your castle ultimately...

If you're claiming it as Edward IV, then you're damaging your own property. And I suppose ruined castles on the Scottish border as well are a bit of an invitation to the Scots to come over and have a go. So you'd want to minimise the damage and disruption and the cost of repairing it afterwards.

Definitely, definitely. And in fact, Banborough was actually a royal castle, unlike quite a few others in the region as well. So in one account we have that the Yorkers stormed the castle under the cover of their gunfire. The other one, which I think you're referring to, is that...

Their gunfire, you know, caused damage within the walls of the castle and that Grey was, you know, incapacitated by the gunfire. And then at this point, the garrison then decided to sort of effectively hand him over to the Yorkers in order to, you know, save their own necks, effectively.

So we talked a bit about castles being used for siege warfare, but they were also, a couple of them were significant headquarters for the factions during the Wars of the Roses. So I guess most notably Kenilworth. was a real home for the House of Lancaster and for King Henry VI. And Ludlow is adopted as a military base by Richard, Duke of York. So Ludlow out on the Welsh borders. Why in particular do you think those two places were selected?

for headquarters or centres of operation? Well, in the case of Kenilworth, I've actually mentioned it's a really important Lancastrian castle, and it had been since the 14th century. So when John of Gaunt... took over the castle and he spent a great deal of money transforming into this really lavish residence. And under the Lancastrian king, so his son Henry IV and Henry V and Henry VI, it was actually one of their sort of favoured residences.

I think that's not just because it was a very comfortable place, but also because you can't so much see it now if you go to Kenilworth, but it was at one time surrounded by this massive artificial lake. It's had very powerful water defences and effectively it was an island.

So it was very popular in the reign of Hemder VI and he stayed there often. And in fact, in the 1450s, when, you know, things are starting to go wrong for the Lancastrians, he actually spent a lot of time there, I suppose, because... sort of closer to, I suppose, the West Midlands and sort of centre support for his dynasty. Because I guess we get this geographical disconnect, don't we? So the House of Lancaster aren't necessarily focused around the town of Lancaster.

Their power base is much more across the Midlands, particularly the East Midlands, and they're popular in the north. And the House of York have very little to do with York during this period. They're much more based around Ludlow and the Welsh marches. part of their inheritance from the Mortimers, I guess. So we don't have this reflection of their titles in where they end up being based. So the House of Lancaster is much more active in the East Midlands than we would think from their titles.

Oh, yeah, exactly. Yes. I mean, partly it's come down to by this point that, let's say, people like the Duke of York, they have estates and titles all over the place. So, yeah, so there's not as much association, perhaps, with Lancaster and York. the geographical areas as we might associate. In terms of the reason why Ludlow was so important was because it was the main sort of residence of Richard Duke of York.

And its prominence as a castle really dates back to the 14th century, when it became the main residence of the Mortimer Earls and March. And many of York's campaigns were sort of organised from the castle. So in 1452, his first campaign, he issued his public statement to the king from the castle. And we have records of him sending out instructions to his followers to assemble across the kingdom for a march on London.

But I suppose Ludlow's prominent or perhaps best known episode it's associated with is the Ludford Bridge campaign, in which effectively the Yorkists... converted all their forces upon the castle to confront the king. And what happened was there was an armed standoff a short distance away from the castle at Loughborough Bridge. In the event, what happened was the Yorkers suffered from mass defections.

the night before the battle, and they ended up fleeing. And then the castle was plundered by the royalist soldiers. Yeah, it's interesting because we tend to think of castles being all about warfare, don't we? But they did have these other...

important roles that they played so we tend to think of a castle being a place that was held or besieged but I know you talk in your book about other roles that castles played during the Wars of the Roses so could you give us a flavour of the other things that castles were used for?

particularly in the Wars of the Roses. Yes, I mean, castles were of great significance to their owners, and often in many cases previous owners as well. So it's partly due to their economic value, so they tended to be the centres of great estates.

But they also had great symbolic importance as well. So they were very much a visual demonstration of the wealth and power of their owners. So often what you get is members of the aristocracy are very active in trying to acquire control of castles, and this often led to conflict.

So, for example, in the lead-up to the Walls of the Roses, you have Percy's attempted to regain that ancestral castle in Yorkshire, and that brought him into conflict with the Nevels. And because the... libidity they had military power in this period they often tried to resolve their sort of legal disputes using violence as well so for example in 1469 a dispute over a case of castle in norfolk led to

a siege in which the Duke of Norfolk laid siege to the castle, which was held by the Paston family. And there's lots of reports, isn't there, of the Duke of Norfolk bringing up cannons to bombard Keister Castle in the past and let us talk about it getting quite desperate at one stage.

Yes, it's a wonderful, in some ways, it's probably one of the best documented stages we have, just because we have this wonderful source of passing letters and this sort of correspondence between the owner of the castle and...

John Paston II, I think, and his mother, in which they're sort of talking about the state of the siege and how it's progressing. And we do definitely get a sense that the walls of the castle were quite badly damaged. And in fact, that may have been a period in which the case has suffered quite a lot of damage. This episode is brought to you by Royal Kingdom, the latest puzzle game from the creators of Royal Match. When I first heard about Royal Kingdom, it seemed too good to be true.

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Hey, what's up? It's Mario Lopez. Back to school is an exciting time, but it can also be overwhelming and kids may feel isolated. A vulnerability that human traffickers can exploit. Human trafficking doesn't always look like what you expect. Everyday moments can become opportunities for someone with bad intentions. Whether you're a parent, teacher, coach, or neighbor, check in. Ask questions. Stay connected.

Blue Campaign is a national awareness initiative that provides resources to help recognize suspected instances of human trafficking. Learn the signs and how to report at dhs.gov slash blue campaign. History has made this world of ours. I'd like to tell you about my show, Dan Snow's History Hit, that really explains everything that's ever happened. The origin stories of the cities we inhabit, or of what's in our kitchen cupboards. Why we've always been drawn to dictators.

the greatest discoveries, inventions, and mistakes ever made. For curious stories, check out Dan Snow's history hit wherever you get your podcasts. So as you mentioned before, Ludlow becomes this centre for the House of York where they send their senior young men to go to effectively be educated and it's almost like using...

the Principality of Wales at this point as a mini training ground. So those Welsh border regions, everyone's incredibly politically active. It's slightly disconnected from the central government. And so Edward IV is given this kind of really in-depth...

basis for his education there, so much so that he decides to send his own son there a little bit later. And I guess that reflects the importance of Ludlow and the castle there in the landscape around it, that it was used for something as important as training young noblemen.

Definitely, yes. And I think in terms of its location, it's sort of in the border region between England and Wales. And later on, once we get into the Tudor period, it actually becomes effectively the administrative capital of... the Welter Marshes and Wales itself. And Henry VII would kind of continue the policy. He sent his son, Prince Arthur, there, pretty much the same as Edward IV and Edward V had been. Yes, exactly.

I think it's partly due to its location. So it's sort of in the sort of Welsh region, but it's also, I suppose, not, you know, it's not as remote as somewhere, let's say, like Carmarthen, perhaps in the south of Wales. It's quite, I suppose, fairly accessible from some, like London or the Midlands.

Yeah, and I suppose it demonstrates the importance of the castles in building those networks of affinity and local relations kind of all focused on a castle as the focal point in the region. Did you find it easy to research these things for castles?

I imagine that either there's lots of information about them because they're really big, important buildings that are centres of authority, or there's very little because they're, especially in times of war, they're functional buildings that are changing hands quite often, perhaps being destroyed regularly. Is there a lot of information?

for you to work off to study these castles? I mean, in some ways, it's a very mixed picture. So in some ways, it's quite difficult. So when it comes to financial records for this era... In contrast to earlier and later ones, in fact, the Wars of the Roses is relatively poorly documented. So, for example, we've got a lot of financial evidence for royal castles in the 14th and early 15th centuries.

So we've got some quite detailed accounts of expenditure on castles submitted by constables and other officials. But we have very little for the latter part of the reign of Henry VI or his Yorvid successors. And similarly, what we have in terms of, let's say, noble gentry households varies enormously. So that means that sometimes we rely quite heavily upon...

what financial records we do have. So we've got some good ones for royal castles in the north and south of Wales, or what we happen to come across in narrative sources. However, I think there is definitely potential... We're carrying out further research in this area by pursuing different angles. So one really good one is to study the architecture of surviving castles. So, for example, we look at Ashley de la Zeus in Leicestershire, which was transformed by its owner.

William Lord Hastings, from being a man into a grand castle during the reign of the Fourth. If we look at the surviving architecture of, let's say, the Great Tower, We can see that it's richly adorned with Yorkic symbols all over the place, and that shows us how clearly he identified with the cause of Edward IV and the Yorkic dynasty. And similarly, another example from this period, if we look at Rackland Castle in Monmouthshire.

It was actually a castle by the time you get to the Walls of the Roses, but a great deal of work was carried out on it by its owner, William Herbert, Pembroke. Perhaps the most notable feature there is this moated great tower, which is situated outside the main circuit of the Walls.

And his construction work was really used by Herbert as a way of visually demonstrating his wealth and power as the effective Viceroy for Edward IV in Wales. So do we see castles during this period then starting to become... almost a transition between the old military, fairly stark fortresses and the sumptuous kind of...

Tudor Elizabethan manor houses that we think of is there a period of transition here where people are starting to use castles they still have a military function but they're becoming much more comfortable places to live as well I think in hindsight we can see that yes so we do get very much a sort of focus on, you know, visually demonstrating wealth and power. Some of it perhaps goes back even earlier, you can see. So, for example...

I've done a certain amount of research on Bodium Castle in East Sussex, which dates from the late 14th century. And you could say the same things about that as well. And these sort of trends become more apparent as we go into the 16th century and whatnot. But what I would say is that even though... There is a move towards this. They still were considered to be important in terms of military terms as well. I'm certainly judged by contemporaries to be important in this way as well. I suppose...

The way of looking at it is being that, you know, these are buildings which have sort of multiple functions and purposes for people. So it's not sort of one or the other so much. Yeah, yeah. I suppose people had to live there. You know, the place had to do its job, but people also had to live there and they wanted to be reasonably comfortable while they were having to stay there.

Now, the other big interest of yours, I guess, is gunpowder weapons. So we can find you on Twitter as Gunpowder Dan. And gunpowder plays a big part in your research as well. So can you talk us through a little bit about how gunpowder weapons developed and changed during the late medieval period? Yes, so guns as in metal weapons that fire projectiles.

from the initial gunpowder, had been around in Western Europe since the early 14th century, so around the 1320s. Which I think is earlier than most people would think they were here. We tend to think they come over, you know... The Wars of the Roses, we see a lot of cannon and mercenaries coming from the continent with guns, but I guess a lot of people wouldn't know that they've been around for almost 150 years by that point. Exactly, yes. So, I mean...

Yeah, so by the time we get to the Wars of the Roses, they've been used for quite a while. Although I suppose the thing to say is the way they were used changed quite a lot over time. So the English are recorders having used guns at the Battle of Cressy in 1346, which is very early. Although... To begin with, they were mostly used in siege warfare. So in the English context, so the guns began to be used in defence of towns and castles from the late 14th century onwards.

And what you see is a gradual transition plays with additional forms of weapons. So, you know, you get catapults and Tawson-powered weapons known as Springles, and they gradually replace those. And then around 1400, you get guns being used much more in offensive siege warfare. So you get the rise of these weapons, which we know sort of bombards, these huge weapons which can knock down the walls of castles. And certainly during the Hundred Years' War...

The 15th century stage of it, guns played a very important role in siege warfare. Armies were routinely equipped with these weapons. So by the time we get to the Walls to Roses, they've been around for a long time. But one interesting development we do get with the Walls to Roses is actually them being used on the battlefield on a regular basis. So in some ways, by that period, they're both very old, but also being used in quite new ways as well.

Yeah, still developing. So is there a sense that the Hundred Years' War perhaps helped create this kind of arms race that increased the speed of the development and deployment and the changes in the uses of these things? Quite often these periods of warfare and conflict can...

pressurize these things can't they and force them forward oh yeah i mean certainly yes i mean because um you know warfare is quite a driver of these things and you had um competition between different factions and we see sort of technological developments so um I mentioned use of guns on the battlefield, and one of that was in around the 1430s and 40s, you got the development of gun carriages. So up until that point...

It might sound a bit strange, but effectively guns were moved in very large carts. So you would drag them to, let's say, a castle or town you're besieging, and then you would unload them from this cart, put them on the sort of wooden bed, and then operate them. But that's quite a laborious process. It's not very useful for, let's say, a battlefield situation. So they, in fact, developed wooden carriages, which made it much more...

accessible to movement about. So how was gunpowder made during the medieval period? Was there a kind of fixed recipe? Was it something more experimental? Okay, so gunpowder, there's three elements to it. There's saltpeter. sometimes known as potassium nitrate, sulfur and charcoal. So those first two elements had to be imported from abroad. So potassium nitrate would be Mediterranean, or as far as India or mainland Europe, and then sulfur.

from volcanic regions like, let's say, Italy and whatnot. So it was mixed together in various compositions. This was often carried out by gunners, because it's something you'd have to do... beforehand you wouldn't want to be mixing gunpowder let's say you know in the middle of a battle for instance and in terms of compositions it it varies so particularly by the time we get to the late 15th century they've actually developed compositions for different types of guns

So generally speaking, you'd have a higher proportion of saltpeter if you wanted the gunpowder to ignite more quickly. So for smaller weapons, smaller projectiles, that made sense, whereas you tended to have lower portions for, let's say, the very big siege guns, for instance. And I think lots of what we read about medieval gunpowder weapons is pretty frightening. They were pretty unreliable, quite dangerous to fire, as dangerous to those kind of behind the guns as they were in front.

Was it important for them to make them more reliable and safer? Yes. I mean, accidents definitely did happen. And we sometimes get some interesting glimpses of this. So for my... PhD and which I published as a monograph I spent a lot of time going through financial records and in the records of the townhouse of Hamden in the 1450s for instance the town was going to receive compensation for his clothes being set on fire whilst

He was making gunpowder. So it was a fairly dangerous process. In terms of making it more reliable, it's interesting. I mean, gunners were aware of the potential dangers. So often what they did was they proved or test fired guns. would effectively test them out in public. We have an example, I think, from 1481, in which a very large bronze gun was testified in the presence of Edward IV for the Scottish campaign. And in that particular instance, the gun actually shattered.

under the strain of firing and we do know from financial records that gun chambers they have many of these guns have separate removable powder chambers which are separate to the barrels will be repaired I believe even from carrying out research on surviving pieces in museums, we know that the wrought iron guns undergone repairs at times. That said...

I think the reason why they testified it was they were quite careful to make sure the ones that did go on campaign had a reasonable chance of being operational for at least a bit of time before you develop these problems. Yeah. So what kind of people... If you found the sorts of people who got involved in the production and use of gunpowder weapons, what was the driver for people to want to do it?

Well, I suppose it's probably been money in the profession, to be honest. I mean, you do get a fair number of people who are associated with guns in some different formats or others. So... You get people like masons and carpenters who are involved. So masons, because the main projectile used in the 15th century was actually a sort of cannon or gunshot made out of stone.

So you get gunshots and carpenters, because you have a lot of woodwork associated with carriages and whatnot themselves. In terms of their construction, there's two main methods. So you have... One is to make guns out of wrought iron, which is sort of a low quality form of iron that can be, when heated to high temperatures, you can effectively manipulate it to a certain extent. So Smiths were quite involved in the making of guns. The other main method is actually casting.

guns using a copper alloy. So it's the same sort of technique as Bell founders used. So those are the two main methods. And then the work and most associated work were gunners.

who are somewhat different to later gunners. They're not just soldiers involved in the operation of guns, but these are really quite skilled individuals. So they were involved in making guns, repairing guns, making gunpowder, casting, let's say, lead shots for... the guns and they were quite well paid individuals and i suppose they didn't have um you know schools as such courses where you learn how to do it i think it was very much the apprentice system where you would learn from somebody else

And so I guess for the people then picking the weapons up, which could potentially cause more harm to you than anybody you were aiming them at, is it a question of money? Is this a mercenary issue where mercenary... forces of gunners were willing to take the risk to get the cash that they could command on the battlefield for having these weapons? I suppose, yeah. I mean, money would have been quite important. People have money to live, don't they? In terms of...

The mercenary element of it, I suppose it's quite a mixed bag in some ways, because when it comes to gunners, often quite a few of them were from abroad. So particularly the Low Countries is a really important region in the 15th century. and later for the employment gunners, but you also get quite a few English gunners as well.

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In terms of their reliability, I should say that even though accidents do happen, I think to a certain extent that's sometimes perhaps exaggerated or there's too much attention given to that, because I think ultimately people in the Middle Ages were quite... practical if they were too dangerous for their operators to use then it would be um it probably would have you know um limited you know the development of the technology and people willing to use them

So do you think we perhaps overestimate that idea that guns blew up in people's faces quite often? I think we do, yes. I mean, because we know from military campaigns that guns could be kept around and used for quite a lot of time. So, for example, I looked at one expedition.

to France in the early 1430s. You've got a set of accounts for the guns at the beginning of the campaign and the end of it. And even after two years of heavy fighting, still two-thirds of the guns were still operational. So they could be kept. If they were properly maintained, they could be kept in quite a good state of repair. And for the Pale of Calais, where we've got some great financial records, I've been able to trace at least one gun, which was in use for at least 50 years.

So some of them did have quite a longevity. I think the other thing to remember as well is the Middle Age is quite a dangerous time. So lots of accidents happened. So if they weren't so interested in things like quality control, they couldn't enforce it. Didn't have the same kind of health and safety rules around carrying big wadges of gunpowder around with you everywhere.

No, exactly, yes. I mean, people died from falling into rivers or being thrown from horses. So it was quite a dangerous time, I suppose, when you eat whatever you did, really. Yeah. And I guess just to linger on that idea of the guns being dangerous, probably the most high profile casualty of a gunpowder weapon during this period, or at least one that backfired, was James II of Scotland in 1460. Can you tell us what happened to him?

Yes, so James II, King of Scots, was besieging Roxburgh Castle, which was a border castle between England and Wales. And what happened was he was mortally wounded. and he was inspecting a large Flemish gun, which misfires, and what happened was a forced explosion caused part of the gun's wooden carriage to break apart, and part of it wedged itself into the king, who then suffered very badly before dying.

The interesting thing about this example, as you say, it's very famous, it's very well known, is that actually the account that we have of him suffering, this death, actually talks about the fact that he was being careless. in being you know inspecting the gun quite so closely because he was so sort of proud of his you know very impressive gun from abroad he forgot that if you're being sensible like a sensible gunner you'd

you stand back a certain distance from the gun. So to a certain extent, you could say he was being rather careless in that example. The fact that he was so famous means that he gets recorded in this particular way. I should imagine there was quite an effort on the part of the man who'd made the gun.

to point out that the king was being a little bit reckless, because otherwise he was in danger of being accused of killing the king with his defective weaponry. Quite possibly, yes. I think people probably realise that James had probably gotten a bit carried away with her.

That's fantastic. I think I'd probably feel more comfortable being on the back end of a medieval gun now than I would have been at the start of this chat. So thank you very much, Dan. If you found Dan's discussions about castles interesting, his book, The Castle in the Wars of the Roses. is out now and he regularly gives talks on gunpowder weapons. You can find him on social media. As I said, he's on Twitter as GunpowderDan. So you can seek him out there and ask him any questions you've got.

Don't forget to also subscribe to Gone Medieval wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family. that you've gone medieval. I'd like to give a quick mention too to a brand new podcast from history hit Not Just the Tudors presented by the fabulous Susanna Lipscomb. There's an episode on Bridewell, the palace that became a prison.

It fits quite nicely with today's chat with Dan by looking at a building in Tudor London whose use was transformed from a palace into a prison. Why not give that a listen and fill your podcast library to brimming point by subscribing to Not Just the Tudors from History Hit. Anyway, I'd better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis, and we've just gone medieval with History Hits.