Vikings in North America

Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Janaga. And we're just popping up here to tell you some insider info. If you would like to listen to Gone Medieval ad-free and get early access in bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries. Such as my new series on everyone's favourite conquerors, the Normans. Or my recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.

There's a new release to enjoy every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com forward slash subscribe or find the link in the show notes for this episode. Most people overpay for car insurance, not because they're careless, but because switching feels like too much hassle. That's why there's Jerry.

your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry compares rates side-by-side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. No spam calls, no hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could Save over $1,300 a year. Switch with confidence, download the Jerry app, or visit jerry.ai slash ACAST today.

Monday Sidekick, the AI agent that knows you and your business, thinks ahead and takes action. Ask at anything, seriously. Monday Sidekick, AI you'll love to use. Start a free trial today on monday.com.

Hello and welcome to Gone Medieval. I'm Dr Kat Jarman. Now, you're likely to have caught the big news the other week that a brand new method of dating has, for the very first time, been able to pin down an exact date for the Viking presence in North America at Alonso Meadows site in Canada. This was possible because the method identifies spikes in radiocarbon concentrations caused by solar flares in the atmosphere in the past that are locked into organic artefacts.

Now, we've known about the presence of Vikings in North America for several decades because archaeological discoveries first made in the 1960s located a settlement there. This seemed to back up the sagas that describe travels from Greenland to this mysterious territory called Wienland. And now the new dating technique has been able to pinpoint a precise date for the settlement of 1021, so exactly a thousand years ago.

Today's episode is a little bit different as it is in a crossover between Gone Medieval and Dan Snow's history hit. Because to find out more about Viking North America... Dunn and I both wanted to talk to the rather legendary archaeologist Birgitta Wallace, who, working largely for Parks Canada, was in charge of the excavations at Lonson Meadows from the 1970s onwards. We had a brilliant conversation and I hope you all enjoy it.

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you very much for inviting me. It's great to have you on talking about this exciting discovery. Yes, it is. It's very unusual to get anything absolutely precise in archaeology. Yeah, I mean, this is really something that's taken the world by storm, hasn't it, for so many reasons. So yeah, we'd love to hear a bit more about it. Yes, well, I'm only an archaeologist, so I do not understand all the science behind it.

It's a really interesting discovery that every so often there is solar activity that affects the radiocarbon in trees and that affects the tree rings. And the year 1993-94 had a period of solar activity that was unusual, very unusual. and it affected tree growth in the entire world and it's reflected in the tree rings the tree ring will show a spike they form a sharp peak any

becomes very distinctive in three rings. And if you know that this happened in 993-94, you can use it for dating. If you have a piece of wood... with bark and it's cut and you can see the tree rings. If you can identify this one tree ring, you then can count the rings from the bark in. and you know that that particular tree ring is from 993, 94, then you can just count rings out to the bark. And if you have 14 more rings, then you just add that.

to 993-94 and you get the date when that tree was felled and of course that is very useful. You've been very modest and said you're just the archaeologist but as the archaeologist you must be thrilled when the scientists deliver evidence like this to you because it must confirm lots of things that you believe about this site? Yes, from the archaeology we have decided the Lanzo Meadows site which was chosen to test this. a new method because the site had already been dated roughly.

to the late 10th century early 11th century we knew that from we have a large number of radiocarbon dates but they were not precise although radiocarbon dates over the years we have been using them have become much more accurate or have less error margin than before but we certainly did not have an exact date for the site so when Margot Kutems and I apologize for my pronunciation oversight I cannot do it in Dutch which is quite different when she and her co-worker Michael D.

came to us and said they would like to see if we could get an exact date on Lasso Meadows. I was very excited.

And it's exciting for so many reasons, isn't it? So, I mean, obviously the methods in itself is exciting, but should we just backtrack a bit to the site itself and why it's interesting? So this really is the only known and excavated Viking site. in North America and you really one of the main people to have excavated it. So can you tell us a little bit what was actually discovered there just sort of to go back to the beginning?

Well, it made quite a splash in the news when Helge Ingstad, the Norwegian Helge Ingstad, in 1960, 61. He found it in 1960. declared that he had found the north side and the excavation began there but it's located on the northernmost tip of newfoundland at the top of the long peninsula in an area which in the 1960s was quite remote. I mean, there was no road in. When I came there, I had to walk in the first time. So there was a lot of skepticism.

Not so strangely because for a couple of hundred years people have been looking for this particular north site since we have textual references to north people from Greenland coming. to North America. Yeah, that's from the sagas, isn't it? Yes. So the sagas describe this Vinland, which nobody quite knew where it was. Exactly. I mean, there are descriptions in the sagas.

how they sailed from Greenland and stuff. The sagas are deceptively accurate in their descriptions. So people have become sure of yes it's there or there and it varied from Labrador down to the Washington area when everybody using the same text. So there was a lot of disbelief in what Helge Ingstad had found.

Yeah, so we had these sagas describing this Vinland, and then in the 60s, this discovery is being made, and he was claiming that this was it, this was the same site. Yes, and what they found were eight buildings. And these buildings form three complexes, each consisting of a big hall and a smaller building right beside it. And it's on the shore of a bay. looking out towards Labrador and the buildings architecturally you can see immediately that they are the same type as you find in

Iceland in Greenland in the early 11th century. They are built of sod over a wooden frame and the whole farm there are very large. They can room about 30 people each. But there was disbelief because no other professionals had gone there. It was so difficult and so remote that people didn't bother even checking out. But eventually it was recognised that, yes, this really is an old site. And then you got involved a little after that, didn't you, in the excavations?

Yes, I worked with the Ingstad a couple of summers, and then the site became a National Historic Site of Canada. a committee was formed with Ingstad as the head of it to see how they could develop it the way Parks Canada usually does. prepared it for visitors and so forth. And they found out that there were many questions that still remained unanswered. For instance, how long were they there?

And what did they do? How did they interact with the indigenous population? Because there are indigenous sites there as well. And so the committee recommended further excavations. But unfortunately, Anders Dene Ingstad did not want to lead those. So a Swedish archaeologist by the name of Bengtsjönbeck was called in to continue lead excavations.

He asked me to become an assistant there and I was at the time I was working at a museum at Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So I was far away, but the museum seconded me for the fieldwork. Then after three years, Frank Schönberg returned to Sweden and more excavations was needed. So at that time, it fell into my hands. At that time, I became the director for the archaeology, obviously.

That was a pretty amazing thing to be part of, really, wasn't it? Yes, and it so happened too that in 1975, for personal reasons, I wanted to leave Pittsburgh and Parks Canada offered me a job. as archaeologists for the Atlantic region of Parks Canada, and Las Meadows came under that. So it became part of what I did for Parks Canada.

I just wanted to highlight another bit of podcasting that I've been up to this week. For any anime fans out there, or if you like me and don't know much about anime but you're interested in the Vikings, I've appeared on the podcast Anime to Z from Prime Video to talk about the show Vinland Saga, which is an anime show all about Vikings.

If you want to listen, just find AnimatorZ wherever you normally find your podcasts. Here's a little snippet of the conversation I had with hosts Shaylingo and Beck Hill. Joining us on Animator Z to provide some historical context is archaeologist, author and broadcaster, Kat Jarman. Hi!

So before you school us in the way of the Viking, we know you just published a book recently called River Kings. Can you tell us a little bit more about where it explores? Yeah. So River Kings is trying to be a little bit of a new way of looking at the Vikings, really.

just bringing all the new and exciting evidence that we know. Because obviously we've been interested in the Vikings for hundreds of years. But in the last decade or so, there's so much new science. There's new things like DNA, stuff we can tease out of bones.

discoveries so it's completely and radically changed our view of the vikings and we now know so much more about the global reach of them so it's not just the story of going to the west and raiding england all those traditional stories but it's actually one that stretches all the way to to the east

and to the Silk Roads. So that's really what the book is about. That's awesome. Actually, that leads me to ask because this episode of Vinland Saga is set in 1013. I don't even know how you'd say that. 1013? 10-13 is good. 10-13 works. Yeah, good. It's from an archaeologist, it's correct. So can you tell us a little bit about what Vikings were like at that actual time? Yeah, so that's an interesting time because it's actually towards the end of the Viking Age.

Typically, we say it ends in about 1066 with a normal invasion. So it's been going on for more than 300 years. So the Vikings are kind of old news by then. And actually, it sort of changed quite a lot. We see them at the beginning, at the end of the... 8th century is the sort of first appearance of these people that we end up calling the Vikings who really are just Scandinavians going out and abroad but by this point in 1013

they've pretty much reached as far as they can reach. So they've gone extremely far to the west, to the south and to the east. And in England, especially, which I know that this particular episode is about, they are just a part of... the fabric really they've been here for for several hundred years they've settled so you get Scandinavians especially in the north and east you actually have what later become known as the Danelaw so you get this division in almost half of England

That's essentially Scandinavian territory. And the impact is just huge. So things like the English language has so many words, things like sky, knife and egg. These are all. viking words basically that come from that yeah so they kind of they've had this huge big impact really um but also there's this big transformation going on in the viking age so scandinavia has gone from being all these tiny little kings

kingdoms and lots of little sort of kings and with small territories to developing into the countries of Norway, Sweden and Denmark. That only really happens around the year 1000. So this is all quite new. And that is actually of importance for what happened. in 10-13. This episode is brought to you by Royal Kingdom, the latest puzzle game from the creators of Royal Match.

When I first heard about Royal Kingdom, it seemed too good to be true. Royal Kingdom is a relaxing yet challenging puzzle game with high quality graphics and beautifully animated cut scenes. You can download Royal Kingdom for free. Play without being interrupted by ads. and even without Wi-Fi too, so it's the ideal companion for holidays and long trips, as well as sneaking in a couple of rounds in the evening.

The levels vary and different types of challenges are woven in to keep it engaging. Completing levels lets you build your kingdom, so I'm already interested. But what do you know? One of the main characters is King Richard, who's battling the Dark King to save his realm. I mean, was this game just made for me? So download Royal Kingdom for free on the App Store or Google Play today.

Monday Sidekick, the AI agent that knows you and your business, thinks ahead and takes action. Ask at anything, seriously. Monday Sidekick, AI you'll love to use. Start a free trial today on monday.com. You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry.

Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year before you renew your car insurance policy. do yourself a favor, download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai.acast. History has made this world of ours. I'd like to tell you about my show, Dan Snow's History Hit, that really explains...

Well, everything that's ever happened. The origin stories of the cities we inhabit or of what's in our kitchen cupboards. Why we've always been drawn to dictators. The greatest discoveries, inventions and mistakes. ever made for curious stories check out dan snow's history hit wherever you get your podcasts

I'm always struck by its position geographically. It's perfect for crews moving from Greenland down into the eastern seaboard. And there's a hint, isn't there? There's a hint that Norse people did go further south. But is it the butternuts that you found?

yes after one excavation i took all the seeds and handed to a botanist and asked him can you identify them and also are they natural to the region and he said they were everything eggs it's exactly what you expect except for these darn butternuts what are they doing there and that of course sent me searching for where do they grow and it so happens that

The northernmost limit for butternuts is the northeastern New Brunswick. But the nuts, there are three of them. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to radiocarbon dating because the DNA also has. more or less disappeared over time. But they were found in context with the Norse artifacts. We knew that they had come there with the Norse. And that opened up a whole new window.

what the site was about. Do you think we'll ever find sites to the further south, into either New Brunswick, the Maritime Provinces or even into New England? Do you think that's the dream? It's the dream, but I really doubt it. For one thing, I don't think we will find any trace of them in the area where I think they went and got the butternuts, which is Miramechi Chaleur Bay.

area of New Brown Street because you had a handful of people there for a couple of months, probably living in tents in the booth. just temporary north dwellings where you build the walls but don't bother with a roof, but you add a tin cloth or so to cover them instead. As for more sites than also meadows, When you know now that the initial period of the Greenland colony didn't have more than about four to five hundred people and Lanzo Meadows is very big.

it would have been able to roam anywhere between 60 to 90 people. That's a big proportion of the entire colony in Greenland, and especially as The type of artifacts we found at Lanzo Meadows are primarily of male nature. It's hard work like iron making, carpentry and boat repair. Then you don't expect. people to have had energy to go and build another site of the same nature. Kat, it's so amazing, isn't it? Listen to Brigitte here because you're someone who specializes in the Vikings going east.

all the way into Central Asia. And now we're talking about the very furthest westernmost point of that Norse expansion as well. So it's a very special thing for you, I imagine. It really is for both of us. Yes, it is. It's because I ended up in the Western Hemisphere. And I know from my DNA, I'm 14% Norwegian, so there.

It is really remarkable. I think it shows that westernmost that you've been looking at and the easternmost that I'm looking at. But it's quite similar because a lot of these are quite temporary because what you've been describing is this, they're quite temporary settlements, aren't they? They're not sort of...

permanent colonies and i think we see that in so many other parts we see that you know early stages in england and we see it in the east as well they're sort of temporary camps for specific reasons which i think is quite remarkable over that distance and can you say a little bit more about the reason for this settlement? I mean, the reason for Lanzo Mero's existence is, I think, it's not colonization. It is exploration of what would be useful to use in Greenland.

because it was a new settlement in Greenland in a completely different environment in Iceland. So they had to change. their lifestyle to some extent and also they knew here were other lands and let's see what's there so it's just an exploration but it was not a possibility to actually expand its colonies all the way there. It was too far away from the mother country.

So do we know then, I mean, is that the reason, do you think, that it was so short term, that distance? Why did it not last? Why did they not stay and settle? The Greenland colony was too small to split up further, to found a settlement.

we know from the later colonization it takes three to four hundred people and especially in it When you found a new settlement where you can't go to a store and buy things, you have to start completely from the beginning, even with herds, with cattle, with sheep. You have to build them up. You can't transport a huge herd of sheep or cattle in Viking ships. You have to be modest at the beginning and expand them. So there were sort of natural limits then, I suppose.

Yes, but you could also see the usefulness of finding another area where you have, for instance, tree growth, since Greenland did not have that to any extent. and that would have been useful. And I do think they kept contact with the areas north of Lanzo Meadows in the closer ones like Labrador that has big forests.

Yeah. And in the sagas, one interesting aspect is the interaction between the indigenous population and these incomers. And you said that that was one of the things that you'd wanted to look into as well. Is that something that we know anything about?

Yes. At Lanzameros, I think we know that they did not encounter indigenous people there. As far as we can tell from the relatively rough radiocarbon datings we have, There were no indigenous people there between around 850 and 1200, except one little really tempting piece, a little arrowhead. that could be from the time of the nose, but it was found inside one of the turf wings. And we don't know if it was shot into that or if it was simply in the turf wing.

the doors came there because that's a possibility as well. Can you give us a sense, us soft British people, give us a sense of what winter is like? in Anse aux Meadows or what it was like in the 11th century? What do we think the climate would have been like for months on end? It would have been slightly warmer than let's say in the 1970s. Now of course we are approaching that again. And today, winters can have a lot of snow, but it certainly wouldn't have had more snow than in Greenland.

They would have been used to the environment there. It's very similar to that of Iceland. Winters are not terribly cold and summers are short. They were used to that. both iceland and greenland but we have one interesting fact and that is if the temperatures had been 1.5 to 2 degrees warmer There may not have been snow there at all. The winter of 1998, the overall winter there was warmer, so there was no snow at Lanzo Meadows at all.

If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I wouldn't believe it. So that could have been the case in the early thousands. One thing that nobody's found there, there's no sign of any burials, is there? So there's no cemetery, there's nothing like that. So we don't have evidence for any of the people who came there and really who they were. No. We searched high and low for that. We have air photos, we have foot inventories. And we thought we found one. One of the early years there.

And we began digging. He had worked for about two or three days. When the caretaker of the site, a local person by the name of Lloyd Decker, son of a man who had led Helge Ingstad to the site, came and sat down on the low turf wall and said, hmm, I see you are digging my turnip garden. So not quite. Because they had walled gardens and the little walls were of turf. So, so much for some archaeologists.

But no, and if they had been there a long time, I think we would have found barriers. That's one of the many indicators. It was very short. So we've got this big news that's just come out. are you excited there's going to be more are we going to be learning about also meadow for years to come probably and the whole site there have been so many little pieces of information coming and

everyone has just added one little fact to it and we now have a fairly full story but we'll probably have more sometime. Kat, we need to get out there, we need to get out there and do some looking. Yeah, I think we do. We'll help the search. Yes, well, a group from Memorial University of Newfoundland is going to do some more work beginning this summer. So we'll see. That's very exciting.

Very, very exciting. And obviously, Kat, we will be covering this. Every time anyone finds anything to do with the Norse Vikings, you can listen to History Hit because we will be covering it, that's for sure. We're obsessed with it. Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Yes, thank you. My pleasure. That brings us to the end of today's episode with me and Dan Snow. That was Birgitta Wallace talking about the new dating of the Viking presence in North America.

Thanks so much for listening to Gone Medieval. Please remember to subscribe if you haven't already and tune in again next week. Make money predicting football. Now you can now in Texas with Cal, she, Cal, she is the only platform that lets you legally trade on real world events in all 50 States from football to Bitcoin, the Oscars, and even politics. If it matters, you can trade on it.

Trade on who wins each game, props, spread, and more. Legally, now in Texas. Don't miss your shot. Download the Kalshi app or go to Kalshi.com. Use code PODCAST and get $10 when you trade $100. This is an investment that carries risk.