The Paston Letters with Helen Castor

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Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. we've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the crusades.

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Welcome to this episode of Gone Medieval. I'm Matt Lewis. If you have any interest in the Wars of the Roses, you might well have heard of the past and letters. If not, this episode is going to put you right. The letters are a goldmine of correspondence that shed light on a relatively but not entirely normal family from the 15th century. The people spring to life from their pages. The stories range...

From the mundane to the dramatic to the touching. I happen to know that Helen Castor is very fond of the Pastons and their letters. Her 2005 book Blood and Roses tells the family story from their letters. And recently, Helen has been focusing on the letters in her substack, The H Files. If you're not already subscribed, I highly recommend it. I've lured Helen back to Gone Medieval with the promise of Pastons, and fortunately...

She's agreed to come and tell us why we should all love the Pastons and their letters. Welcome back to Gone Medieval, Helen. Thanks so much for having me. It's wonderful to have you back again to talk about something that I'm really, really keen to talk about. So we're going to chat about the Paston letters, which is a phrase that people might hear around a little bit. If you're into medieval history, you may have heard of the Paston letters.

But I wondered if you could give us a little bit of an idea to start off with about what they are and why they're important. The Paston Letters are the earliest surviving great collection of private correspondence in the English language. And what I need to emphasize there is private, because we have... huge volumes. In fact, I think people get surprised sometimes when they find out quite how much documentary evidence does survive from medieval England.

We have government records, administrative records, legal records, but it's almost all formal. It comes from the public processes of government and law and then public chronicles, monastic chronicles, that kind of thing. What we almost never have is a way to get behind. closed doors, behind the closed doors of a public life, or find out what it's like for what we might want to call more ordinary people living through the Middle Ages.

That's why the past and letters matter. They're one of our first chances to hear people speaking in private. The common complaint of the medievalists is that no kings wrote diaries or anything like that. But this is us getting a little bit closer to something like that, what people were thinking behind closed doors and more about their...

their thoughts and their everyday life rather than how they wished to be seen by the public. That's right. Writing to each other in private, sometimes, of course, worried about whose hands their letters might fall into.

Because the other thing to say about this great collection is that it comes at a particular time in English history, in the middle of the 15th century, when, as we know, but they didn't. at the point the letters start surviving, England is about to experience the terrible...

bloody upheaval of civil war, the wars of the roses. And so there are moments in the correspondence where you can see that particular members of this family are having to be a bit more careful about what they're saying or how they're saying it.

just in case the letter falls into the wrong hands, perhaps not naming an enemy that they want to refer to. Or there's one instance where one member of the family, instead of signing himself John Paston, signs himself in a letter to his mother, John of Gelderston, Gelderston being the place where he was born, which he knows and she knows, but might provide a little bit of cover if the letter's being read by the wrong person.

And I guess we ought to just say who the Paston family are, where are they and what kind of level of society are they operating at? The Pastons were... a family from North Norfolk. The village of Paston is almost on the coast of Norfolk. They are a family that rises. pretty quickly and pretty spectacularly from the ranks of the peasantry in the mid-14th century up into the ranks of the landed gentry by the middle of the 15th century.

So they're a really interesting, of course, they would never have seen themselves as a case study, but for us, they offer an extraordinary perspective into what it's like. trying to make your way in the world, trying to climb the social ladder and the political ladder at a time when all sorts of upheavals are going on around you, from the Black Death.

in the middle of the 14th century, which of course gave so many members of the peasantry a chance to rise because it killed so many people that the ones who survived had. more of a chance to gain land, to gain employment, to gain money, to gain status. And then what it's like in the course of that rise. which happens first via professional success, William Paston I.

founder of the family Fortunes, very bright boy who got sent to school to learn the law, ends up as a high court judge, starts buying up lands and manors in an attempt to turn his family into landed gentry. And then when his son John Paston takes over, trying to accelerate the family's rise, but at a point where the world is falling apart around them. And what kind of volume of letters are we talking about here? Are we talking dozens, hundreds?

All in all, the archive, the surviving Pastan archive from this period of the 15th century is about a thousand. documents, which to modern historians might not sound very much, but to a medievalist, as you know, Matt, it's an unbelievable treasure chest of wonders because a thousand documents over the course of... end-to-end about 70 years, but most of them concentrated in the period from around 1440 to around 1480. It really is an extraordinarily rich... means of seeing inside.

this family's experience and their perspective on the world in which they were struggling to stay afloat. It's like peeking through a window of a family home when all the other curtains are closed. This is the one we actually get to see into a little bit, isn't it? It is. Is there any particular reason why...

the Paston letters are so well preserved. There must have been other families who had this kind of correspondence going on, letters going backwards and forwards. Why is this one so well preserved? It's such a good question and such an interesting one, because as you say, we do know that other letters were ricocheting around England during this period. There are a whole series of chance circumstances, basically, that feed into the story of how and why these letters still survive. First of all...

There's the fact that they were written in the way they were written to start with. It so happened that during this period, from the 1440s onwards, key members of the family were separated at... key times and for quite a long time. So quite often there was one member of the family in London trying to pursue the family's business in the law courts or with the government there.

And then another important member of the family would be back at home in Norfolk, whether in Norwich or at one of the family's manorial houses there. So for a start... the letters are surviving in consistent number or are being written in consistent number in a way that wasn't true necessarily for everyone else.

Because a lot of these letters relate to important legal business, as well as other things, but there's important legal business to do with their properties involved, they get filed and kept. So those are the first two stages. Next stage is that the family dies out in the male line in the early 18th century at a point where... The muniment room is still full of all sorts of family papers going back centuries. And at that point, local history is beginning to be a thing.

The last member of the family, the husband of the daughter of the last male heir of the Paston line. is trying to sort out the house so he can sell it. And he brings in a local antiquarian called Francis Bloomfield and says, please will you have a look at everything that's in the monument room?

The rain's coming in. Half the stuff is getting moldy. We need to know if any of it needs keeping. And there's an extraordinary letter from Francis Bloomfield, once he's had a look at what's in the archive, saying, well, yes, there's a lot of stuff there. separated it into piles. I mean, a lot of stuff's been ruined by the rain, but I've tried to separate into piles. Some of it's just family stuff. You probably don't want to keep that, but some of it has to do with...

the course of history and might be worth keeping. I don't know whether you want me to burn the rest of the stuff, at which point, of course. We're all going, oh, no, because it is clear that there was a lot more that hasn't survived. For instance, there are no estate accounts. for the Paston lands. If we had the estate accounts to go with the letters, the insights we would have would be even more extraordinary than they are at the moment.

We don't know whether anything was burned, but it seems quite likely that destroyed or discarded, there was originally a lot more. But these letters were of interest to local antiquarians.

A significant number of them were sold off, passed through different hands, and eventually came into the hands of a gentleman named John Fenn. And we're so lucky that they did because Fenn was an unusually sensitive and rigorous historian. A lot of other collections of papers got... destroyed by antiquarians who cut them up for references to things they were particularly interested in and threw away the rest. Fenn didn't do that. Fenn knew what he was looking at.

showed them to various people, including Horace Walpole, a great man of letters, and was encouraged to prepare them for publication. And in 1787, the first two volumes of the Paston letters were published in an edition, prepared by John Fenn with the original spelling on one side, and then modernized in the terms of 1787 version on the facing page. Even then, the odyssey of the past and letters wasn't over because this was a publishing sensation in 1787. It was the hit of the season.

And Fenn was told that the king would like to have these letters for the royal library and that he could have a knighthood in return. So he goes to the palace, turns over the letters that he's published so far. gets his knighthood, keeps going with the other letters he's got at home, and the ones he's published so far disappear out of sight. It's not until the 19th century.

when they haven't been seen for ages and suspicions are beginning to be raised about whether they were forgeries, perhaps, in the first place, that they are eventually rediscovered. some of them in the attic of Fenn's descendants, because he died before being able to complete his publication, and some in the home of the grandson of the private secretary who'd encouraged.

Fenn to hand over the letters to the king in the first place. It doesn't seem the king really wanted them at all, this other chap did. So we're extraordinarily lucky that at that point, the British Library stepped in and acquired them all. for the nation or soon after that point. Now they are almost all what we think of as the past and letters in the British Library with some associated documents.

in some other archives, particularly the archive of Magdalen College, Oxford, which has papers relating to a particular group of properties that the Pastons were trying to acquire.

It's a long saga. I think I had to pick myself up off the floor about four times when you're talking about finding collections of letters and just burning the stuff that doesn't seem like it's interesting and cutting the rest up just to get the interesting bits out of it and throwing the rest away. And, you know, just let the rain get it and let it go.

Maldi. I mean, it's just horrific, the stuff that might have been lost. There's a huge what if there, isn't there? What else could we have known? There really, really is. It doesn't bear thinking about too much, but... In a way, it's an important thing to remember, I think, that these letters are, as you've said, not the only letters that were being written in 15th century England. They are the tiny tip of a very large iceberg and we have to...

remember always everything that we're not seeing and hearing by which they would have been surrounded at the point where they were written. So to get back to the family, could you give us an idea of who are some of the... key figures. We've talked about William as perhaps the founder of the family's growing fortunes. So who are some of the key Pastons? And I guess, why are they all called John? Some more very good questions.

William we need to know about because he really is the founder of the family Fortunes, this great legal brain. And there were so many men like him in late medieval England. We think of it as a very stratified society, and it was. But the potential was there for extraordinary social mobility, whether through the church or particularly in this period through the law.

So bright boys who could get themselves an education could get onto the bottom rungs of the ladder. And if they were good at what they did, they could rise very far, very fast. And what William did was be very canny. He married an heiress, Agnes, and one of the things that's so striking is that he waits.

until he's in his 40s to get married. He marries an heiress who's 20 years younger than him. In part, that's because he wants to have built his fortune up to a point where he can snag an heiress. But the other thing that occurred to me very late in the day when I was looking at the whole history of the family is that William also waits until both his parents have died.

before he marries an heiress. And you begin to wonder, is he waiting to have a big society wedding at a point where his slightly embarrassing parents, because they were both of peasant stock, allowed him to rise from these very humble beginnings, but perhaps couldn't be trusted not to give the game away at a big society wedding, waiting until they were safely out of the way. It's an interesting, if rather touchingly sad thought.

William and Agnes then set about having children, the eldest of whom is called John. They have three more boys and a girl. as the gentleman son of a gentleman lawyer is married off. much younger than William had married. So at the age of 1819, he is betrothed and then married to another heiress called Margaret Mortby, the heiress to some more lands in Norfolk.

And here too, we see the pros and cons of William's decision to wait to get married till later in his life. Because by the time William dies in his early 60s... John is only in his early 20s. So William has waited for very good reasons, but it means his son, to whom he's given the finest education William can afford, is left as a very young man in charge of...

the whole family and all the family's estates, when he really doesn't have much experience as opposed to education under his belt. But by this stage, he and Margaret, who really... are the first two characters that we begin to see in real three-dimensional detail. They've also started having children. And here's where we come to your second question, because their first son... is called John after his father. He's born in 1442. Their second son, born in 1444, also called John.

It's almost as though they're doing it on purpose to make life difficult for us, because we have three Johns in two generations. And what historians do... which we know no contemporaries, no people who knew them, none of their relatives did. We call them John 1, the father, John 2, the elder son, John 3, the second son. So it's a kind of historical code.

But there's no sign of nicknames. There's no sign of Jack or Johnny or anything. They're just John Paston Esquire, who is the father, John Paston the Elder. who's the elder son, and John Paston, the younger, who's the second son. And they really will be our main characters through the decades when we're following the family's fortunes in real gritty detail.

bizarre decision to just call your two sons two years apart the same name it's just odd it's very inconvenient the best guess i have is if you look around the family circle Very significant numbers of the men who were closely related and or important to the family were called John. John Paston's relative by marriage, one of Margaret's relatives, a very rich, childless knight who's going to become very important in their story, John Fastolf.

is right there. Margaret has a relative called John Burney. They have a great family friend called John Dam. So wherever you look, there are potential... godfathers to these two boys. And there was a tradition for babies to be named after a chief godparent. While deeply, deeply inconvenient, it may not have been so odd to contemporaries to have a whole succession.

of children in the same family called the same or similar things. So all the wealthy relatives that you might inherit from are called John. So you give everyone a John that they can leave something to. There's a John for you and a John for you. I can see that you're getting into the mindset.

straight away. And who are the significant people that the Pastons are writing to? Are these letters contained to within the family or do they write to external people as well? Not entirely contained to within the family. Often the most... personal and most revealing ones about the individuals concerned are within the family. So we have a lot initially between Margaret Paston.

usually in Norwich or at one of the family homes in Norfolk, and her husband, John, who's often throughout the 1440s and 1450s in London, trying desperately to... proceed with the family's business either on the fringes of the court or in the law courts. And then as the years go on, the two boys come into the correspondence. They write to each other. They write to their parents. After John 1's death, Margaret is writing.

in no uncertain terms, to her two sons. John 2 by that stage is often in London. John 3 often at home, either with Margaret or attending to family business. But there are other letters to family. friends, to family servants who are doing the family's bidding, whether in Norfolk or in London, sometimes to patrons of the family. members of the family are trying to get favours from or to get information from. So you do get a huge range of perspectives coming through, as well as the really

close-knit sense of how these family relationships within the immediate family are developing as time goes on. And I guess the two main areas that these shed light on are sort of...

national politics and more local matters. So I wonder if we could start with the national events. And you mentioned that these focus around the period that we call the Wars of the Roses. So what kind of events are they detailing what do the family know about those big national moments where the throne is changing hands sometimes rarely but sometimes members of the family are actually there

For example, in 1468, when Margaret of York, the sister of Edward IV, marries Charles of Burgundy, she goes over to Bruges for this lavish wedding. Both of... the Paston boys. I always think of them as the boys, but of course they're grown up by this stage. John II and John III, they're both there because John II is in her entourage and John III has got himself a place in the entourage of the Duchess of Norfolk, who's one of the

of the great ladies who's accompanying her over to Bruges. So you'd think that we would get a blow-by-blow account of everything that happens. Actually, John III, who's the one who writes about it, is so overwhelmed by the extraordinary experience that...

He seems a bit lost for words. He says, I know of nothing like it, save for King Arthur's court. And I don't have the wit or remembrance to tell you what happened, really. But we do know they were there. And we also know, for instance, that they were at the Battle of Barnet. in 1471. They were fighting in the entourage of the Earl of Oxford on the Lancastrian side, which meant that they were, or what is by then the Lancastrian side, the side of Warwick the Kingmaker.

and that therefore is the losing side. And again, we hear from them about a week after the battle because John 3 has been... wounded in that battle. John too writes to their mother to reassure her that he's in no danger of death, he is recovering, and trying to tell her that it'll all be okay. There we do get a bit more sense of what it might be like to have survived such an...

appalling experience. The terms in which he writes, to me, seem very human and very touching. We're used to thinking of these events as Shakespearean drama.

What the Paston boys are telling their mother is, the world is right queasy. In other words... We're all at sea and we don't know exactly what's going to happen. So sometimes they're there actually in the thick of historical events, but other times you get... glancing reports that give you a sense, precisely as we were saying earlier, of what is going on behind closed doors, what is perhaps...

not being said out loud on the great public occasions. So, for example, during the 1450s, during the great power struggles at Henry VI's court, Henry VI being this king who is turning out to be such a vacuous... entity that government is imploding round the black hole that he is becoming. His wife Margaret of Anjou is beginning to assert herself in the name of their very small son, Edward the Prince of Wales. It's a Paston correspondent who says, for example,

Margaret of Manjou desires to have the whole rule of this land. Margaret behind closed doors, and it's increasingly obvious in public, but here we have a direct statement from one of the Paston's correspondents that Margaret is... is manoeuvring to try to take control of her husband's regime. So it's not that we get a whole narrative of events. as you would in a chronicle, precisely because the Pastons and their correspondents are living through this from day to day. And what we get is

what is useful to them or what is relevant to them and the things that they are trying to manoeuvre around or manage. But therefore, these are the kind of perspectives and insights that we... don't tend to get in the great chronicles that are written with some amount of hindsight or with some amount of a political agenda. Of course, the Pastons have their own agenda, but it's a private one, not these great public narratives or

official governmental pronouncements. Yeah, because those public documents give us the centre of the jigsaw. We can see what the picture of the jigsaw is meant to look like.

But the past and letters give us those tiny little pieces around the edge that just make a little bit of a difference. You can suddenly see a bird that you would have known was there if you hadn't put that piece in. That's exactly right. And that's why, as you say, that... almost anyone who's read about the Wars of the Roses, about this great period of tumult in the 15th century, will probably have heard the name Paston because these moments, these fragments, these...

voices from the wings of the great political drama can suddenly give us piercing insights that we wouldn't have had in any other way. And I guess they give us a different perspective as well because we're used to hearing from... the big players we we hear from the kings and we hear from the deposed people and we hear from the warwick the king makers of the world but here we're getting much more of a a local middle class for want of a better term they're not middle class i know but

a local middle-class view of what's going on. It's like someone today outside the Westminster bubble talking to you about what's happening in politics.

precisely it and what it also therefore gives us is a sense of how difficult all these upheavals at the centre, even before actual civil war breaks out. But quite how difficult it is to stay afloat in these increasingly choppy political seas for a family that... does have their own ambitions and has their own... needs and wishes and hopes for the future is engaged in conflicts over properties they're trying to either acquire or hold on to.

And if the government at the centre is imploding, it's increasingly difficult to be sure where you can turn for help, where you can turn for support, whether the law is actually going to be upheld. more powerful people than you decide they rather like the look of some property that you think is yours, is anyone going to be able to stop them from just taking it? So the way in which...

Events at the center have a ripple effect that can threaten to become a tsunami for people much lower down the social chain. decisions and actions those people end up having to take or make in order to try and survive, it gives us a perspective that we wouldn't have in any other way. Running a business online? Look legit and own your own brand with professional tools from GoDaddy.

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That's GoDaddy.com slash GD now. Again, GoDaddy.com slash GD now. There's never been a better time to choose the domain and email that's right for you. New customer purchases only. Products auto renew separately. See terms on site. GoDaddy.com slash GD now. And I guess the other side of what they tell us is a lot of stuff that's going on at a local level and what concerns them about what's happening in North Norfolk around them. And it always strikes me that the Pastons...

don't seem to get on very well with almost anybody else. They seem to be permanently arguing with their neighbours, but maybe that's just the way I read them. But are they good at telling us what preoccupies a family?

that we might in air quotes call more normal for the period than the voices that we normally hear? They are, so long as we interrogate what we mean by normal. First of all, as we've said and as you're indicating, they are... not an ordinary man in the street in the sense that they are landed gentry, recently risen, trying to rise further.

and higher and faster. So they are already in the upper echelons of society, not at the level of the nobility, but they are dealing with the nobility in their everyday lives. In other words, we shouldn't be thinking of them just trying to scrape a living at village level. That's not where they are. They are very well off.

But the other thing to say, which relates to your point about the arguments they get into almost constantly, is that this business of trying to climb the social ladder is one that comes with a lot of risks. Norfolk at the time... is a county that's full of families trying to climb the social ladder. It's a very rich county, lots of trade wealth, lots of legal wealth, full of lawyers, Norfolk and Norwich. And as we know...

Lawyers can often start an argument alone in a brown paper bag, and that's certainly true of a lot of people the Pastons know. They are in very immediate competition for land. influence for power in the region that they're trying to establish themselves in. In particular, they get very ambitious during the 1450s. because of their connection with this very curmudgeonly old knight called Sir John Fastolf, who's made an absolute fortune in the French wars, doesn't have any children.

has built himself an all-mod cons, up-to-the-minute, sophisticated mega-mansion called Kayster Castle in North Norfolk. is trying to decide what to do with this after his death. He wants to set up a religious college of priests to pray for his soul in perpetuity after he's died.

But who is going to be in charge of that? How is it going to be set up? And what happens when Fastolf dies in 1459, which, as anyone who knows anything about the Wars of the Roses will know, is precisely when England really starts to...

implode politically, Vastolf dies and John Paston claims to be his heir. So just at the wrong moment politically, John Paston is claiming this huge estate with this incredibly desirable castle at the centre of it, which every single other person of influence or power in East Anglia and beyond also wants to claim or would love to acquire.

So the Pastons have set themselves, John Paston, the father at this point, has decided to do something extremely risky, extremely ambitious. I think he truly believed Fastolf. wanted him to be his heir and that he was the person best placed to fulfil Fastolf's dying wishes.

But that doesn't mean it was going to be easy and it doesn't mean that other people weren't going to see things extremely differently. And that really... helps set the scene for the Paston's experience of the Wars of the Roses all the way through, that try as they might to keep their head down on the national stage. They can't because they are, at the local level, desperately trying to secure their possession of this.

hugely valuable, hugely desirable set of lands and possessions that would catapult them far up the social hierarchy and they're finding they have very, very powerful enemies.

It must have felt a bit like this was the payoff for calling all of the kids John. You know, here's a John who wants to leave the family all of their money, but actually it turns out not quite to be as wonderful as they might have thought it was. And for those who don't know what happens with Keister Castle, I wonder if we can stick with that for a little bit.

It's a hugely dramatic story, isn't it? It really is. It starts out as a legal battle which becomes vicious and bitter immediately as soon as Fastolf has died because it divides all of... Fastolf's friends and supporters. So even within the Paston's own circle, there is immediate division, but it really gets bad by 1469 again.

Listeners who know about the Wars of the Roses will recognise that date because that's just when the new regime set up by the young Edward IV who's managed to get the throne from... the vacuous and inept Henry VI back in 1461 with the help of Warwick the Kingmaker, in 1469 is just when that alliance and that new regime in turn implodes. And that's the point where the Duke of Norfolk decides he would rather like Cayster Castle for himself, and he is going to send an army to besiege the Pastons.

and their household and servants inside Cayster. So within this more general outbreak of civil war, you have mini localised war going on at Cayster. where you have John III, the youngest son, with some of the Paston's servants and four professional soldiers who they've taken on in... fear of something like this happening behind the walls of Keister, trying to defend it against an army.

with guns. I mean, there are guns on both sides sent by the Duke of Norfolk to besiege them. Margaret is elsewhere in Norfolk, Margaret their mother. desperately worrying about what's going on at Cayster. John 2, John 3's elder brother, because John the father is dead by this stage, John 2 is in London doing everything he can to... curry favor politically, but of course the political world has collapsed into chaos. So quite where help might come from.

is not clear. It's one of the most dramatic moments in the whole story, right down to the tiny details. One of the pastor's servants who's with John 3. behind the walls of Cayster is called Thomas Stumps. And it turns out that Thomas Stumps is called Thomas Stumps because he has no hands. loyal pastor and servant that he is, he's insisting that he can still fire a crossbow. If you're hearing shades of Monty Python and the Holy Grail and it being just a scratch, I am too.

Clearly they needed all the support they could get from the household men and the servants who were with them. vastly outnumbered though they were by the men the much more powerful and much richer Duke of Norfolk had sent to attack them. I guess it must have driven home for them the dangers in the social climbing that they're trying to undertake.

they've perhaps slightly they've either overstretched themselves or they've come into something that you know is a leap ahead of where they maybe ought to be And suddenly you're appearing on the radar of someone like the Duke of Norfolk, who simply has far more resource that he can throw against you. So you've suddenly gone from being a small local family to someone the Duke of Norfolk wants to send an army to destroy.

weird thing about social mobility, isn't it? They've either overstretched or just accidentally been catapulted too far. That's precisely it. And at a moment where the unforeseeable has happened, that is... Edward IV, who had set about during the 1460s imposing his control on a kingdom that had become extraordinarily disordered during the 1450s and the breakdown of Henry VI's rule. This is just at the moment where Edward IV has been effectively taken prisoner.

by his erstwhile ally and supporter, the Earl of Warwick, Warwick the Kingmaker. So Norfolk too is seeing his moment, seeing his opportunity that suddenly, with the effective authority of the Crown... removed in terms of its peacekeeping force, here's his chance. He can say, no, Caster's mine and I'm going to take it.

Not only is Warwick occupied with everything Warwick is trying to do, essentially a version of the same thing in central government, but at the point where Edward manages to free himself temporarily. Actually, what Norfolk has done is quite useful to Edward IV in the sense that Norfolk is showing that peace cannot be kept without him. So who is going to restrain Norfolk at this point? And it becomes clear that...

really no one is coming to rescue John III and the pastor and servants there. The letters from this point are some of the most dramatic and the most touching because... Margaret is so terrified. She's hearing terrible things about people being killed at Cayster. She's writing to John 2 in London, and there's one letter he writes back to her at this point where she's saying,

Two people have been killed at Cayster. This is appalling. We've got to do anything we can to rescue them. And it's the only letter in the entire collection where John Tu, her eldest son and her favourite, although he drives her up the wall in various ways. doesn't start a letter to her with, most reverent mother, most worshipful mother, I recommend me to you, all the polite forms. He starts a letter, mother.

I suppose that you can't have had any more recent news from Casey than I have. And last time I heard, they were all safe and well. Turns out, in fact, neither of them is right. one man, a very loyal old family servant, has been killed. So they're both right and they're both wrong. But just finding those fine-tuned differences of language, a letter starting, mother.

really is extraordinarily sharp for the polite forms of address in the mid-15th century. It's amazing just how the one word at the start of a letter can just tell you so much about... where they both are in terms of their frame of mind at the moment, where politics is. You can imagine John is so busy. He's like, I actually haven't got time to be polite. Just shut up, mother. And I'm really frustrated. I'm doing everything I can, mother.

making me stop to write back to you when I'm trying to. It is extraordinary. In the book I wrote about the Pestons, I was trying to use the letters as much as I possibly could. You acclimatise to not only the individual voices of the characters, but also precisely what is... usual in terms of form of address so that you can then tell what's not usual. And one of the great joys of one of the things I'm doing at the moment is to go back to the past in letters in my sub stack.

go through, among other things I'm doing, but one letter a month in its entirety so that people can see the letter in the original spelling which looks very difficult when you first see it and you're not used to it, but actually if you read things out loud, you get your eye in, you start being able to see through this extraordinary spelling. spelling in no sense standardized in the 15th century, and you start to be able to see and hear.

these forms of address and the voices that are speaking. And so what I'm doing is then giving a modernised version and discussing all that. But to see a letter as a whole, which obviously in my book about the Pastons I couldn't do, I was having to use. sentences and paragraphs. They are a joy, these letters, possibly not for poor old John 2, John 3 and Margaret as they were having to write in the circumstances of 1469. It puts you right there on the spot. It's absolutely immediate and visceral.

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slash GD now yeah yeah i've been enjoying reading your substack about it so for anyone who doesn't know head over to substack find the h files subscribe to helen's substack it's absolutely packed with medieval goodness i think we probably ought to put

Keister Castle to bed and not keep people hanging too much longer, what happens? Do the Pastons keep it? They do in the end, but at great cost, both financially and personally. Or at least they keep it, they've still got it in the 17th century when they end up, first of all, on the wrong side of another civil war because they're out-and-out royalists. And so they don't do very well initially, but then...

when the restoration happens, they become earls of Yarmouth. They actually make their way up to the nobility in the 17th and early 18th century, but by that stage having lost almost all the wealth that would have supported that status, which is one of the reasons they end up more or less bankrupt and the family ends up dying out. So it's a long story full of...

extraordinary ups and downs and vicissitudes. But by that stage, yes, when they emerge the other side of the Wars of the Roses, poor old John too has died. broken his mother's heart by dying, by never getting married. The relationship between Margaret, the mother, John 2 and John 3, I think is the most touching.

and my favourite bit of the whole correspondence. Bear in mind that you've seen Margaret from the age of 18 as a young girl getting married. An arranged marriage, but it is pretty clear that John and Margaret did grow to love one another and seeing her cope with everything that life threw at them both during the 1440s, 1450s.

Margaret herself, as a young mother, had been on the receiving end of more or less a siege in the late 1440s. There's a wonderful letter from her that survives to John in London saying, Yes, I probably need some pole axes and some ammunition and crossbows because we can't use longbows in the house. The windows are too low. We can't draw a longbow. And could you get me some almonds and also some cloth to make clothes with?

It's a shopping list of an extraordinary kind. She was so brave, Margaret, and she'd had to find the fortitude to withstand so much that by the time the 1470s come and she's already lost John, her husband. whose health, it seems clear, has been broken by the strain of his attempt to secure the Fastolf inheritance. And then she's watched her favourite son, John 2.

who is a very charming figure. He's a would-be chivalric knight, very dashing. He loves books. He loves women. He loves being in London. He loves being at court. He doesn't always get things right. drives his father round the bend. His father sends him to court to try and represent the families.

interests in the early 1460s. You have to fight to remember that John II is actually the same age as Edward IV, more or less the same age when Edward IV takes the throne. Edward IV is this authoritative, golden figure who's won the battles that are brought him to the throne and is bestriding England more or less like a colossus.

John too is getting everything wrong and his father writes these letters to Margaret saying he's a drone amongst bees. He's no use to anyone. Can't get anything right. Margaret is always defending him. to her husband, but he exasperates her as well. But then when he dies, young and unmarried, you can feel Margaret's heartbreak.

The loyal son who stayed at home, who's warm and charming in a very different way, having to get on with everything, try and hold the whole family together. He and his brother are very fond of one another, but again, get exasperated because they are... having to deal with different ends of the same problem, he is then the one who has to step up and he is so capable and he's really the one that steers the family out of.

the end, the complicated end of the Wars of the Roses and establishes them on a much firmer footing. He is such a safe pair of hands in the end.

There's a wonderful moment. Sorry, I realise I'm going on, but I love them so much I could go on forever. But there's a wonderful moment in the early 1470s when all of this is, you know, they've had to... withdraw from Kayster. It's not clear what's going to happen. But one of the things that's been a source of hope throughout all this is that the Duchess of Norfolk has a really soft spot. for John III, who she's encountered at home in Norfolk. And that soft spot...

carries on throughout all the conflicts. It's a great help to the Pastons that she will always put in a good word for them because she likes him so much. And poor old John III then has to contend with this moment where John II, his older brother, who fancies himself as a dashing knight, has bumped into the Duchess of Norfolk in the street at Great Yarmouth, I think it is, but somewhere in Norfolk. And she's almost eight months pregnant.

John, too, tries to pay her an elaborate, dashing compliment about what a fine figure of a woman she is and what a fine baby she's sure to produce. And basically it came out all wrong and he managed to make it sound as though he was calling her fat.

And there's this anguished letter from him to his brother saying, they say I said she was great and large and that looked as though it was going to be easy for the baby to get out. And he's clearly got it completely wrong. And poor old John 3 is having to deal with... Oh, for goodness sake, this was, she's our one hope and you've, you know, but you so sympathise because who can say the right thing to the Duchess of Norfolk when you bump into her in the street in Yama? It's almost impossible.

Well, it's also, for five and a half centuries ago, that's such a relatable family dynamic, isn't it? You know, the older son who... annoys his dad but is the apple of his mum's eye and the younger son who probably feels like he's actually doing all of the hard legwork and keeping everything together while his brother's off.

you know getting everything wrong living the high life and yet the sun shines out of his backside it's just so relatable even today isn't it it really really is and i don't know if you were going to ask me about this, but it gets even more relatable when you add their sister into

the whole equation because, again, right at the heart of this whole period where things are so complicated, in fact, while the siege of Cayster is going on in 1469, they end up with a family of purely personal family crisis on their hands because their younger sister, Marjorie, who's at home with Margaret elsewhere in Norfolk, while John 3 is behind the walls of Cayster, John 2 is in London.

An enormous crisis erupts because it turns out that Marjorie, who's at this point around 20, has fallen in love with the family bailiff, a man named Richard Cowell, who's... probably almost 20 years older than her and has been an absolutely essential family servant for many, many years. He's extremely intelligent. He's a lovely man. He's very good at his job. Running the family estate without him is unthinkable. But not only has Marjorie fallen in love with him, but he's fallen in love with...

Marjorie. And by the time it comes to Margaret's attention that this is going on under her roof, not only have they fallen in love... but they have got married, which is something that you can do just by making vows to each other. At this time, you don't need witnesses or a priest for a valid marriage.

And the problem Margaret has when she discovers this and tries to get Marjorie to say, no, no, no, we're not married after all, drags her in front of the Bishop of Norwich to say, please, Bishop, make... clear to her that she's not really married. Marjorie, who's clearly inherited a lot of her mother's temperament, says, I am married, and if by some technicality I'm not...

Tell me the words I need to say and I'll say them now. I am married. And this is all going on while everything else is imploding. And this is one of the moments where we see... quite how desperate John 3 feels about everything, but also one of the few moments where to modern ears he suddenly doesn't sound quite so sympathetic because he is outraged at the threat to the family's status.

that his sister marrying a family servant who is the son of a shopkeeper, what that might do to their campaign to secure... all the ambitions that they and their father have been working so hard for over the years. And he writes a letter saying, she will never have my goodwill. She and Cal will never have my goodwill to make my sister sell candle and mustard in Framlingham. In other words, this is downward social mobility that he will never accept, but he has to because they're married.

And they're in love. And we know how much they're in love because one letter survives that Richard Cowell has written to Marjorie while they're separated. And he says, burn this immediately. She clearly doesn't because it's fallen into the family archive. In other words, her mother clearly got her hands on it. It's a love letter saying,

can't bear this separation. I don't know what's happening with you. It seems like a thousand years since I spoke to you. It tells us just how... intelligent Richard is, just how much he loves Marjorie, just how impossible the situation seems, except that in the end there's nothing the family can do and Marjorie is allowed to go off and marry Richard.

Not too long later, Richard is so indispensable, they bring him back into the family employment. He's never quite where he was in terms of a position of trust, but they have no choice but to go along with it. There's got to be a soap opera series in the past and letters somewhere. It sounds like Dallas. It's peak Dallas or dynasty or something. It really is. If you look at, I mean, I was thinking when I was thinking about talking to you today, this family saga of.

political intrigue, revolting ambition, and family crisis, whether we're talking Dallas, whether we're talking the godfather, whether we're talking succession. It's such a familiar trope, if you like, but this is real and we can follow it in real time in the voices of the people who were living through it.

If any TV producers are listening, Helen and I are probably willing to talk. We are, I think, aren't we? On the matter of love as well, one of the things about the past and letters that fascinates me... and again talks to that that little piece in a jigsaw is this is where we get our first

ever mention, because somebody preserved this set of letters, our first ever mention of Valentine's Day as a day for love and for lovers comes from the past in letters. It does. It comes from the late 1470s, 1477. So pleasingly, given everything we've said about what John 3 had to put up with, it comes from his courtship of a young woman named Marjorie Brews.

She was the daughter of a very suitable gentry family, but she wasn't an heiress. She was quite a bit younger than John III. And negotiations are going on between the two families for them.

to marry. But what becomes clear from the surviving bits of correspondence we have is that Marjorie, I do wish again there were slightly more different names because this isn't the two Johns' sister Marjorie, this is John III's prospective bride, Marjorie Brews, but there are letters between John III and this Marjorie which make it absolutely clear that they've fallen head over heels in love.

Everyone is trying to make it work. There are letters from Marjorie's mother to the pastor saying, she's making it very difficult for me because she's petitioning me day and night. to make sure this works. But there is a letter from Marjorie to John where she talks about him. She addresses him as her good, true and loving Valentine. So by this we can...

be pretty sure that the language of love around Valentine's Day was well established. It's not that Marjorie is inventing this as a language of love to use to John 3. This is the first surviving example we have of a letter addressed to someone as a valentine. And it's so heartwarming. They are so desperate. to be together. I was saying that the sister Marjorie's marriage to Richard Cowell was one of the few times we see John III being a bit prickly and spiky and saying, I can't approve of this.

This negotiation is one of the few where we see John 2 being prickly and spiky, which is partly because John 3 is pushing so hard for a settlement of land that will... make Marjorie's family agree that she's being looked after well enough as his bride. But you can't help but suspect that at the same time, there's a sense

in John 2's mind that he's losing his brother. His brother has been his best friend and his right-hand man and the one he could share private family jokes with, and he hasn't got married. but now his little brother has fallen in love. And there is a sense, as well as the very real practical things, that he is going to have to agree to...

divvying up of some of the family lands to support this new couple properly, he also feels, I think, as though he's losing his brother. It's very, very touching. It's also so human and, like I said, so relatable.

I feel like we could talk about the passing letters all day. but we probably ought to draw this chat to a close. I'm sure you've got other things you would like to be doing. Well, as you can tell, I could probably go on for hours, but I'm very grateful for the time we've had. Kind of quick questions to end on that may be unfair. Do you have a favourite member of the Paston family? It's such a hard question.

And I do, as you will have been able to tell, love the two boys as I think of them, John 2 and John 3. But if I have to choose one, I think it has to be Margaret, their mother, because she really is the centre of the whole family. We do see the whole sweep of her life from her first meeting with John where she, Agnes, her...

future mother-in-law calls her the young gentleman that you know of. The first meeting went quite well, I think. We see her from that age at 18 all the way through to her will. which was recently on display at the British Library as part of the British Library's wonderful exhibition about medieval women.

Margaret's will is an extraordinary document. It's a long, long, long scroll because it goes on in such detail and it looks like new. It could have been written yesterday and in it among the bequests she leaves. aren't nothing to her daughter Marjorie who had gone so wrong by marrying the family bailiff. We don't in fact know if Marjorie is still alive at that point, but she does lead the quest to her three grandsons, her cow grandsons whom Marjorie has had in this.

bad marriage, this disapproved of marriage. So we get to see Margaret's whole life. And she's so brave. She's so characterful. She has such fortitude. She's such a strong-willed woman of a kind that we don't often see because women couldn't exercise power in public life so easily. I think she has to be my favourite.

I don't know if this is more or less unfair than that question, but do you have a favourite kind of moment or incident from the letters? I think I probably talked about them in the sense that I do love the... Telling the Duchess of Norfolk she looks fat. And I do love the whole story of Marjorie's marriage to Richard Cowell. Have I used up all my favourites? No, because I've got far too... I think there is a wonderful letter from Margaret to John when they're very young and he's away in London.

London or Cambridge. Anyway, he's at one of the places where he's studying or understudying his father. She's writing with news from home where she's living with her mother-in-law. And you gradually begin to realize as the letter goes on why she's saying what she's saying. Because she says at one point, I can only fit into one girdle that I've got.

And could you make sure that the new gown that I've asked your dad for, he's with his father in London, I think, could you make sure that gets bought? And you gradually realise, she says, I can only fit into one girdle because I'm grown so elegant.

that only one of them will fit me anymore, you gradually realize she's pregnant with their first baby. She's really excited about it. She's really nervous about it. She says, Somebody we've never heard of called Elizabeth Peverell has had sciatica for weeks and weeks and she's really worried.

She says she'll come when she's needed, even if she has to be pushed in a wheelbarrow. And we gradually realise Elizabeth Peverell is the midwife and Margaret is really nervous about her first labour. And it's such... a human moment from a young woman in what we think of as an arranged marriage, but we're beginning to see that this is a relationship that has grown into real love.

And she ends the letter, please wear the ring with the image of St. Margaret on it that I gave you as a remembrance. And what we need to know is that St. Margaret was the patron saint of pregnant women. And then she says, You have left me such a remembrance that I must think about you day and night, even when I want to sleep. In other words, it's really hard to sleep when you're pregnant.

This is such a lovely way of saying, you'd better be thinking about me because I'm having quite a hard time over here. And yeah, it's just such... a wonderful, intimate moment from a woman that we will later see having to grow into being a very battle-hardened wife and mother. And to have seen her at this vulnerable moment in her first pregnancy is just heartwarming. I mean, there you go, TV producers, there's character development there. It's got everything, everything you want, everything.

Well, thank you so much, Helen. It's been wonderful to get into the meat of these past and letters to understand why they're so important. And it feels like get to know this. Norfolk family who we might otherwise have forgotten had not some 18th century antiquarian decided not to burn their letters because they might be quite interesting. So thank you so very much for joining us. It's been wonderful to talk to you. Thank you for having me.

You can find Helen's book, Blood and Roses, wherever you buy your books. And Helen's blog, including more pastons and much besides, is on Substack at the H-Files. You can listen to Helen's last visit to Gone Medieval to talk about her book, The Eagle and... the heart which tells the stories of richard ii and henry iv in our back catalogue and there's plenty of wars of the roses episodes in there too if you'd like to find out more about the period in which the past and letters are set

There are new instalments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back and join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval.

You can sign up to History Hit to access hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week and all of History Hit podcasts ad-free. Head over to historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Anyway, I better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis, and we've just gone medieval with History Hits.