Hey.
My name is John O'Keefe and I live in Petaluma, California.
My favorite golf course is Rooster Rhyme. This is Golf Smarter, episode one thousand and two.
We were fortunate to be at the Masters. Number ten requires a draw off. The team Colin Morrikawa prefers to hit a fake, so part of preparation was him hitting a lot of three woods with the draw. He hit that fairway four out of four times. Now, it's not a preference, but we prepared for it in advance, thus we have a strategy for it. I think it's also that people are thinking they're forcing something. Oh I don't like back right hoole locations him at the middle of
the green. It's not saying you have to do anything, but you're right. I think we get trauma because it does trigger something that we've done poorly before. So it reminds us, Oh, I don't like holes like this because I did blank on yesterday and so intend to flipping it go. Yeah, that might have been just a poort off swing, had nothing to do with the shot itself. But how do I now shift gears of what is the shot required? Have I done it before? If I can do a different shot, I can lay up. I
think people pigeonhole themselves a little bit too much. But I would also say what's required, A smooth little three wood, it's all that's required. I've done that before, I can do it again. But replacing that initial threat with what we've done before in a positive way is what I like to do.
The difference between confidence over cockiness is subtle, but it's effective in lowering scores with reccessing.
Hosts, this is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ.
Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf Smarter podcast.
Rick, Hello, Fred, how are you?
I am fine? I'm excited. I love this celebration that I've been doing on episode one thousand and everything around it, and getting a short list of people that I've wanted to have come back and just you know, air their complete knowledge and just grind you as best as I can. And you are high on the list because I just love our conversation. So thank you for.
Coming back, Thank you for the invite.
Unbelievable. So you know, we we've had multiple conversations. We talk about the flow code, we talk, we've and I've talked to many people about the mental aspect, and that's really the focus of this, uh this podcast. And it seems as if over the last twenty years of this podcast that the conversation about the mental game has only strengthened and maybe even came out of nowhere from before
where it was all swing mechanics. And you are following that, especially with the flow code at theflow code dot com. Please check it out. What if you witness because you've been coaching for more than those twenty years.
Yeah, I think it's the evolution like I talk about with performance in goal specific I've been a member of the I am a member of the PGA, been coaching for over thirty years. I've seen a transition happening through coaching. And again, at first it is about swing mechanics and getting good fundamentals. We have to teach technique and skills,
of course we do. And I think when we look at maybe what happened almost twenty years ago, we started seeing physical Fitness TPI come on board a little bit more, which was awesome. We started understanding the structure of your body is going to govern your function what you can and cannot do. Right. I'm a lot older now, I'm a little bit tighter than I was playing college golf. I can't do the same things I used to be able to do with this swinging right. So there's a
physical component. I think we're getting more knowledge on that. I think we've got club fitting has improved. We've got even biomechanics, which is a fascinating the industry of force plates and three D and vests and all these things to understand how the body's working in real time is all fantastic. And yet I think that puzzle piece, which we have always believed has been important, but we are finally talking about it, is the mental side of the game. And we go back to you and I read tons
of books. You go back to Nicholas books and Harvey Panic books. I mean there's some mental game stuff thrown in there, a little bit if you really want to dig in, right. Of course, management a little bit here and there. So I've seen a huge upswing in mental game coaching. Slash acceptance, I guess is the first word of why are we talking about it more? Because I think the players are talking about it more in their post round interviews and when they win, it's like, hey,
what was this week about? You don't hear Yes, I got my great position of my takeaway. It's more like, hey, I got my mindset right, I got my focus right. I dealt with the pressure in this way. I did some breathing, and because it's out there, more people were going, oh, Rory, he's like me. I'm like him, Oh my gosh, we're on the same I can't swing like him, but I could go through some of the other mental stuff like him. Huh.
Maybe that's something I can address. And I think there's some wonderful I mean, you have some of the best mental game coaches and experts on so you know, that's a growing field and us coaches, I believe we have a lot to say and it's starting to be accepted and applied finally.
Yeah. Yeah, And I'm curious from your perspective as we talk about that twenty years, there's also been a tremendous amount of change in golf through technology, right, and a lot of it of course being you know ball speed and your launch angle and you know your dispersion all that stuff. The technology is there a GPS. But how has that impacted the mental aspect of what we do?
Yeah, I think part of it is the certainty, like the measurables.
Right.
So you mentioned that when Backman or the first radar systems came out, we had factual data of what a ball did, and we also knew what the club and club face was doing to make it produce this and the attack angle, and so it wasn't guessing anymore, and I think that was liberating for a lot of coaches, like we're not guessing. Great when you have certainty of when the club does this and the ball does this, we can then reverse engineer the swing mechanics. That's a
great space to be. Okay, then you start seeing this technology of the force plates and of the three D and all this to get even more of those specific measurements, and for some people in the industry that's been a key thing of knowing what works and what doesn't. Now I would we can go on a whole other discussion on is the technology being overused and we're not coaching enough that we can talk about here in a moment.
I don't want the technology to be the coach right now, with the mental side, though, is I'm excited on two fronts. Is technology is starting to be used in the mental side of the game. If we want to measure the mental game. Up to this point, it's been very challenging. How do you measure the mental game. You take people's opinion, Hey, did you focus on the course? And if they said yes, then I guess that's our measurement. It was very subjective, right,
But now it's exciting. And I've experimented with some of these technologies in the last fifteen years and they've accelerated. Is you know, eg, brain brain wave sets. Right, we can actually measure brain waves in real time while somebody's hitting a golf ball. We have heart rate variability, and we can measure not only the heart rate, but the
stress response somebody is having in real time. We have more wearables on right, people are wearing I have this aura ring that measures heart rate and sleep patterns, and we have whoop. We have all these wearables now, so we're starting to uncover a little bit more about what's happening maybe deeper in somebody. Right, And it's going to
only accelerate with virtual reality and augmented reality. We're gonna be able to put people in stressful environments, provide interventions to help them understand how to deal with those stressful environments. Just like if you're trying to make a let's say, a four foot put to win the Masters in the Career Grand Slam or something like that, right, I.
Wonder what it could be talking about.
So when we have these different environments, can we train for those? And that's what I'm excited moving forward as we go. So technology can be used for good or for evil, depending on how much we want to mess people's heads up and what are they focusing on. But I think a lot of coaches are relying on it to get more of the factual data of cause and effect.
I think the mental game is still a few years behind, let's say the swing stuff, but it's getting there and we're gonna have some pretty cool stuff here in the next few years. Why behind because the wearable technologies still
need to work in real time better. So like there's a lot of players on the PGA Tour that wear the whoop band, right, it does measure heart rate variability, but it can't do it by second by second, and in real time is where we as much as we would like it's close, it's getting there, but if it's giving a vague thing of what happened in the last minute, But we want to know what's happening when we make the golf swing. That's why I say the wearable technology
is going to get better. I think we'll be able to measure more things and more accurately. You know, right now, we don't put a EEG headband on and somebody when they're playing a PGA tournave. I think in the future we're going to have some fun with that. So I think there it's still a little bit the accuracy, how quickly the data can be utilized, and how many markers we can we can start to measure.
To the wearables, is that instant information and or is it something that posts around You can go back and look at like your arcos and looking at your.
Stats correct a lot. It's going to be post right son. We can download like I have the AURA ring, I can download what my activity was for the last few hours. It will tell me activity score, stress response, all these time of things. It'll give me a heart rate variability score. But again it becomes a little too vague for when we're talking about a shot by shot basis, So yes,
and I think it's gonna happen relatively quickly. We'll be able to put a marker there that oh I hit a drive on number one, I hit a putt on number two, and put markers there in real time to now look back and go, oh, why did that heart rate variability change here? Or why did the EEG go a little bit with faster brain waves beta instead of lowering humh. Then it's easy to have that conversation about the mental game. But yeah, how quickly the data can
be uploaded is one key thing. And then in real time, Like again, if I'm playing in a tournament, I can't utilize that technology to improve my golf game, right art goes, Yeah, you can put your stats in and all that stuff, but you look at it afterwards and look for patterns. Right now, we can look for patterns, but it still needs to improve a little bit on the second by second.
As a golf coach who works with some players at the highest level on the on the PGA Tour, can a wearable help you and will it get to the point where it can help you While you're doing, say a practice round with that player and you're there as their coach. Can you get that data and say, oh that the last shot, we could let's discuss what happened, what was going on in your body? Is that doable now?
I think it's pretty close. My company Flow Coaching realize with a company called Focus Calm, which is a brain wave.
He's bending over to pick something up.
Yes, picking it up, and so we can then pop it on the forehead and measure brain wave activity in real time and I can swing with it on. So I could go out on the range and use it. I could go for a practice round and use it, and then it's downloaded to an app and we in real time could see a certain score of how we call active or stress somebody is, or how focused or
calm somebody is. We can do that. I think again, you're going to get more acceptance of that in the future when the technology just gets a little bit quicker and easier to translate.
And that data is of value to a coach.
For me particularly, it is because I know the brainwave activity is correlates with somebody who's able to get into a flow state or not. Flow state is optimal experience. I'm completely immersed in the present moment, I believe I can take on this challenge in front of me, and the brainwave activity is a lot less. It's a lot lower. When somebody is in a highly stressed environment and they're more in a fear state, it goes beta waves. They get really really thinking a lot and that's harder now
to perform at our best. Right, we're at our best when we're actually thinking less. So when we're now measuring brainwave activity, we have some marker. Now we don't know what they're thinking. Right, I can still be thinking happy thought, but I'm thinking way too many thoughts of the future. Oh my god, I'm going to have this trophy of my guess that's positive, but probably don't want to be thinking about that when I'm trying to make a four foot putt. So it's like, where are we focusing on.
We will want to have less brainwave activity happening during the execution of a golf shot, and so we can use brain waves to help us understand the state somebody's in, like I said, along with heart read variability, and there's other you know, not that we could ever do this in real time, but blood markers we would want to know, like hormone levels coming in cortisol, all these type of things that could also, of course affect our state that we're in.
As Again, as a coach who coaches at the highest level, we know what the amateurs go through. We know what recreational golfers go through when they step up to the ball. The swing thoughts are overwhelming and disabling in many ways. But pros who've really grooved their swing, I mean, their pinpoint accuracy is remarkable to watch. Are they thinking swing mechanics at all? Are they trying to stay mentally healthy when they're stepping up to the ball. Where are they from your experience.
Yeah, I think it's a loaded question. It's like week week to week. Yeah, it could be a different answer, oh for that player. So confidence has a big part of how much I'm thinking. Right, So if I'm playing well and I'm practicing well and I'm getting good results, there's a higher likelihood that my brain wave activity is going to be lower because I do trust what I have. Yet, again,
it doesn't matter the level of player. When Tuesday, the ball's going a little sideway, Wednesday it's going a little sideways, they may get into panic mode, like oh, crap. I've got to figure out a way to find the fairway, okay, And I think everybody's experienced that, so I think it player to player. Yes, some players I think are able to accept that they don't have their A game and they can go out there a little more and go, okay,
let's just get it around the golf course. Let's try to not to force anythings, while other, maybe inexperienced players press the panic button because they don't have their A game. And so I think it's a little bit of a gray area for players is when do they press a panic button, which is now I have three swing thoughts, or it's like, nope, here's my ballflight. I'm going to play with what I got. Let's go round one. Then after let's try to figure something out. But I think
that comes through experience also. But all humans are humans, and we will tend to try to fix things with thinking and logic and analytical stuff. And if we go down that rabbit hole too much, it actually hinders the performance even more.
Who has more of an impact on confidence And we're going to talk a lot about confidence. We have to coach or the caddy.
That's a great question. I'm gonna. I'm going to say before they tee it up on the first hole, it would be the coach and then of course, shot by shot, the caddy now has a huge role. And I think if you work together, that you're now saying the same message and there's a consistency of message.
Together being the coach and the caddy.
Correct yes, that that we're using the same verbiage or or how we're going to go through preshot routines in a certain way, and it can be similar. But that end goal of what is the player need to hear? Maybe need is too strong of a word, but how do we put them in an optimal state with what we say, the questions we ask, and even how we
react to how a player is going about it. But I think part of the coaches is to help them prepare for the event, and the caddies there is the anchor on a shot by shot basis.
M h Okay, now let's get to confidence important, critical or yeah it's okay, we talk about loaded questions.
Yeah, it's I look at because flow in the optical state, it starts with focus, so flow follows focus. The only way to get into a flow state is to be in the present moment. So we always say it starts with focus. Yet and next piece of this is somebody needs to believe they have the skills to match the challenge in front of them. So the belief system is confidence, my belief in my ability that I can execute the
shot in front of me. Okay, now, we can certainly talk about what could enhance confidence, what could I do in the present moment, which we'll get into in a moment, But confidence is a core of it. If I believe I can do something, I'm in a much different attitude than oh crap, I hate this whole oh my gosh, and that's going to create a threat response, which is to stress fight or flight. So yes, confidence has a lot to do with how we perceive the shot in front of us. Can I do it or not? I
think that's a big question to ask. And if the answer is no, I can pick another shot certainly, or I go, oh well, let's just try it anyways, and then good luck with that. So confidence is a core of the mental game. Our belief is very important.
How do we convince ourselves? Right? Well, let me finish this question in the sense that I was once told by a listener, and we've used this all the time. Never follow a bad shot with a stupid shot. Yeah, right, So how do we get to the point where we're standing over the shot going just because I can see the flag doesn't mean I can make the shot.
So now we're talking about either we're making a decision based on emotion, like I'm mad or I'm frustrated because of the last hole and I need to get it back. That's a post shot routine emotional regulation question. The other one is somebody who's just ultra aggressive risky. They're ego gets in the way I'm going to go for that
whole location. Now it sounds like it's confidence, but it is it cockiness to the point where that is not playing the percentage of course, right, So I think that that those are two different things, and I think confidence, you know when you said convince ourselves or something like that. Of course, we want to get to the point where we're not trying to convince ourselves. It's either I believe I can do it or I can't. And some of
that has been with past results. Have you hit the shot successfully in the past before the answer is yes, okay, at least I can maybe go back into my memories like, yeah, this is a five arm, I've hit plenty of really good fibers. Went oh last week I had that, And we can now change the memory. Because most people are geared to what they don't want because oh crap, I've done this bad on this whole before, we're trying to replace a memory with what we've done in the past.
I think preparation and practice that can build confidence, you know, having practice rounds, getting a game plan. All the best players in the world do that the moment. A lot of the research is self talk. What am I saying to myself three seconds before I hit the shot? That thought will trigger an emotional response in us. I don't like this shot. I'm in between clubs. I never do well with this right And to the outsider, it's like, well, now the ball's in the fairway, it's one hundred and
thirty five yards. What's their problem? But they're interpreting it as I don't like hitting three quarter shots. If I forced this, you don't know what the mental warfare is going on upstairs. But if the self talk is like, yeah, I know how to hit a three quarter nine iron, I go here to hear I've done it before, Let's do it again. That self talk now can can change us and it can change our emotions. So visualizing success right, seeing success before it happens is a way a precursor
for confidence. Right in recovery shots, It's not something we've practiced, but we hit these unbelievable trouble shots because we see it so clearly underneath the tree in here, right, It's like, where'd that come from? Clarity? It came from clarity of what you wanted to do, and then you allowed yourself to do it. So confident, I think has many it has a foundation. But in that moment, in those twenty seconds before you hit a shot, what am I thinking?
What am I saying to myself? What am I seeing? Will set the table for our commitment to the shot.
When you mentioned replace a memory, I frequently will when I walk up to a tea box and I'm playing with someone who goes, oh I hate this hole. It beats me up every time. I always you know that golf history has nothing to do with your next shot. Do you realize that? I mean like, you're talking yourself into a real problem here. Don't do that? How well?
I think is what we're doing is we're trying to superimpose what is the shot required? So let me give you an example. If I like to fade the ball and I come up to a hole that is a dog leg left. At first, it's like that doesn't match my eyes fair enough, right, I prefer to hit a fade, but it's a draw biased type shot. Well, I still have options. Do I have to hit a draw? Maybe not? Maybe I hit a three wood to the corner of the dog leg, so don't have to do anything. Or
I could say, what is the shot required? Actually, it's just requiring me to hit a driver that I hit all the time. I am a little more left even I know that's not correct for a dog leg left, and I play my natural pattern. I could do that too, And then would be have I ever hit a draw before? And I said, well, yeah, I'm not as comfortable though, but I would remember a time that I've done that. Have I done it on the range before? Yes? I can now superimpose that memory onto the present shot as
much as I can. It's the same thing like Augusta. Right, we were fortunate to be at the Master's and there's number ten requires a draw off the tee. Colin Morrikawa prefers to hit a fade, so part of preparation was him hitting a lot of three woods with the draw. He get that fair way four out of four times. Awesome. Okay, Now it's not a preference, but we prepared for it in advance. Thus we have a strategy for it.
Okay.
But I think it's also that people are thinking they're forcing something. Oh I don't like back right whole locations came at the middle of the green. It's not saying you have to do anything, but you're right. I think we get and I know this will sound like a weird word, but trauma because it does trigger something that we've done poorly at before. So it reminds us, Oh, I don't like holes like this because I did blank on this type of hole yesterday and so intead of
flipping it go. Yeah, that might have been just a poort offswing, had nothing to do with the shot itself. But how do I now shift gears of what is the shot required? Have I done it before? If not, I can do a different shot. I can lay up I could. I think people pigeonhole themselves a little bit too. Much. But I would also say it's required. H a smooth little three wood, it's all. It's required. I've done that before,
I can do it again. But replacing that initial threat with what we've done before in a positive way is what I like to do.
You just brought up Colin. You did, I didn't, But now that you did, y Well. When we first spoke, you were working with Colin, and the next time you weren't, and now you are again. That's all we need to talk about as far as that's concerned. But here you are coaching you know somebody who he was one of my picks before the Masters started this year, and he is always one of my picks because I just love watching this kid play. And he won in San Francisco
and it is you know, it's major during COVID. But you've been with him since he was a child, right.
Eight years old? Yes?
Yeah, Can you share with us some of your greater challenges as a coach with someone since from being an eight year old to being a high level professional.
Sure? So, first off, I'm extremely fortunate to have that opportunity, right so, meeting him as an eight year old and being with him for twenty years we had a small little break. But what happens at every level is we achieve goals, we raise the level again and again, and sometimes expectations can get in the way of performance. Is we think we should always fill in the blank, always break eighty for maybe some of your listeners, maybe win
a major once a year. I mean, they're all different expectations, and when we don't meet those, there's frustration that incurs. Okay, So I think the most challenging things working with really good players is expectation management. And then if we don't meet those expectations, how do we deal with frustration? How
do we deal? And I think Colin and I worked very well together along with his team as caddie, as putting coach and manager and everything is that we're always trying to get the old aditor, trying to get a little better every week. It doesn't always mean that there's going to be a win at the end of the week. He would like to It doesn't always mean it's going to happen, right, And the best example would be in Maui this year at Kapalua. Right we're at the Century
event and we've done a lot of prep. He had a true offseason, he felt ready, felt refreshed, ready to go. And I may get this incorrect, but I think he shot thirty one under par for the four rounds. Okay, it's the fourth lowest score in PGA Tour history. But he lost to Hideki Matsayama, who had the lowest score in PGA Tour history. So what do we take away from that week? We lost? Or did we play really well?
I mean, and that's the torn part is that we are assess based on wins, and I get that wholeheartedly. Yet are we getting better or not? And I think that's the fine line that this game it's tough, and then even when you're playing really well, it's tough to win. And then if you win, then people are expecting you to do it more often. It becomes a vicious circle. So, you know, I'm proud that you know, Colin works real hard, he's moving forward, he's had it. You know, this is
where we're taping it. Here is still first quarter of twenty twenty five, and he's had a good, solid start of his year and very optimistic that it's going to continue. So that's the biggest thing is expectation management.
That's fascinating. You know, you talk about he shoots thirty one under and gets beat And one thing that you know, recreational golfers have to realize, these guys are not going, oh, you got to give me three strokes, right. They don't play with an index on the tour, right, these guys are like, we all count every single shot and we'll
see what happens at the end. There's no strokes given here, but expectation management on that level where we again, as amateur recreational golfers, even if we're club you know, playing for club championships, we're not as good in expectation management. I'm sure you've worked with a lot of people who you have to like tamp that down.
Yes, And yet I think it's the nature of just golf in and of itself, right, Okay, a lot of our play, a lot of the listeners here have broken a hundred. Well, then they expect to break a hundred all the time, and then ninety, and it just keeps ratcheting it up. So once you've done it a few times, you have a new expectation. Totally get it. That makes sense.
The problem is is that there's so many variables in performance with golf is that if we just looked at the score alone and say, oh my gosh, I shot eighty one. I didn't break eighty how to and you forgot you made a quad on one hole where you got a bad bounce off of this that you know, It's like, we have to put it in perspective a
little bit. But it's interesting. I don't work with as many amateurs as I used to, but giving a golf school weeks ago, and we had a player who had never broken ninety before, okay, and he hit a shot and hit a drive about one hundred and eighty yards down the middle, and we're going, oh my gosh, and he goes, Rick, I just want to do that every time. Now, for everybody out there, one hundred and eighty yards is not a huge shot. I get that, and he hit that.
But here's somebody who struggles with keeping it in the same zip code. But now once he hits a good shot, he says, oh, I just want that every time. He's like, come on, how about we shoot for four out of ten right now? Right? It's just what we get the taste of success in this game, and it just brings us in. It's like, well, Rick, I just did it. I should do that every time I go. We're not robots.
We're not. And so that's where I don't care what level we have, this disassociated of what should happen, right, which is an expectation. I should do that more often. I should I get that, but holy smokes, it is making the game very frustrating because we were probably not going to meet those expectations. So now how do you deal with that? And then we have all that other stuff. But I actually try to use stats for diameters too. It's like, let's say the old adage of what's a
PGA tour make rate from roughly eight feet? It's right, roughly right. So this person's getting mad because they didn't make an eight footer. I'm like, well, the best players in the world, it's flip a coin, okay, and yet you think you should do it three out of four times. It's like wait time out here, okay. So I think stats is what's been been very useful for expectation management on a shot by shot basis. But I think again, once we taste some success, we think, well, I've got it.
I said, well, I don't know if you've got it. You tapped into it. Now can we get it more often?
Taste it?
You've tasted it, right, So I think it's a challenge for all of us golfers.
No question about it. But when you say we're not robots, let's remember that there's a golf ball in between all of this. And even the robots don't hit the exact same shot every single time. It's not like you're looking at a dispersion rate of a robot, you know, would iron byron. You're not going to see the ball landing within a yard of each other every single time. Correct.
I mean, we've got wind direction, we've got how the you know, we've got water on the face of the club and then the ball. I mean, yes, we can do it as close position conditions as possible to minimize variables. But golf is in a randomized environment with all kinds of variables. So I think it's people are very unfair to themselves. Again, thinking they can do the same thing over and over and over again when they can't control all those variables.
Is the lesson of the story.
Stop thinking, it's when to think and what are you thinking about? Right?
Okay?
If I am with doing a playing lesson and we walk up to a second shot on a par four, I hope somebody's thinking about the lie and the wind and the yardage and how firm the green is and where the whole location is, and I hope they're thinking about those things to make a proper decision. Once we make a decision, which is still analytical and still kind of going, Okay, I'm going to hit a nine iron and I'm going to aim at fifteen feet left of
the hall, I'm still thinking I'm creating an intention. Once I get over the shot is when we start to wine down that thinking pattern, and we would want the thinking to go to more of a creative side of either a visualization or a feel, and back to I want to be athletic, is what people say. Right, Well, I've now turned down the thoughts and my thought maybe just target. It may be just the feel of hitting
a cut. It may be so I've minimized the thinking. Okay, I think it's very difficult to tell people not to think, but I think we've funneled it down to a lot of thoughts, down to very few by the time we're executing the shot.
Earlier in the conversation, you said, is tech being overused? We can talk about that later. It's time. Is tech being overused?
Short answer is yes, because and you know, golfers there's the most passionate sportsmen will call it because they get hooked into all the equipment.
They love it.
They're watching their players on TV. They go play the same course as their players play. They're really connected to the sport. Right. We golf nuts, right, That's why we call them golf nuts, right. And I think part of that is that they've got wrapped into what's happening in our coaching industry is that because we can measure it, it's useful. So let's measure our the force plates and where our ground forces, and let's measure that, did your spin rate go to twenty five hundred or twenty seven
hundred with your driver? And it's all really cool. It is. Okay, Yet, how useful is the information to that fifteen handicap? And I would argue it's very little for them to hit a golf shot. The coach needs to do a better job of filtering the information. So they don't show them all the information. They just say, hey, now that we got kind of your fingerprint of your swing, this is what we're going to work on. And we get the player to be very specific on one thing at a time,
then we're fine. But we have a lot of people who are downloading the apps on their own phone. They have simulators in their basements now, and they're seeing all this stuff. They don't know what they're looking at, you know, And then it's the analysis paralysis idea. So the technology's cool, they overthink it. They see something on Instagram. I got to do this, and they're down so many rabbit holes and it's hard for them to come out.
Again. You brought it up. I had my notes to bring it up, but you brought it up. Simulators. I there's a lot of people playing on simulator golf now and I think it got a huge booth this year with TGL yes and dealing with and watching Colin have a blast with that. And one of my favorite parts of TGL was listening to these guys not only give each other a hard time and play with each other, but the strategy involved. Right of simulator golf, But where's the mental game and simulator golf?
Great question, I still think because performance matters, and because that the result is ultimately they want to hit a close, they want to make a birdie, they want to win. The whole performance is always at the core. So now what are they focusing on, what are they thinking about,
what are they feeling emotionally? I know talking to Colin, he really enjoyed the TGL experience, especially in see with that stadium right and does your heart pump a little different than even the first team maybe and.
Celebrat and you get the shot clock ticking off on your start pounding got way.
I'm not used to seeing a clock right in front of me and I have to And now you see them change how they're feel So I think it's the mental game of that is still the same, maybe different. Like you said, the shot clocks in their face, they're working in a team environment, They're working on environments like an artificial green, like I'm not totally comfortable with this because this is different than what I play on and
then hitting into a screen depth perception. I mean, there's things that they're trying to process that is very mental. And I think simulators are here to stay, and I think it's a good thing. I've coached on simulators. I think the technology is getting better and better where I can actually change environments. I can put different wind patterns on.
I can put people in stressful situation in a simulator and help with those interventions, help them hit shots that it's like, yeah, you're going to take this out when you go play that dog leg left, Let's do it on the simulator first. So I think it's really cool that it's growing. It's having people have a golf club in their hand even more different situations, which to me is the old adage growing the game.
Yeah, and what do you want to see out of tg L? Do you want to I mean it seemed to be a successful first season. It was a lot of fun for the viewers. It seemed like it was a ton of fun for the players. I think there are you a future?
Well, I think there's a huge future and I know nothing inside information. I think, of course they're looking to grow and I think, you know, do you bring an LPGA team on? Do you do you put in celebrities? Do you put I don't know if they'll go down that.
Co ed co ed team totally right, right.
So we're trying to get more eyeballs on golf for trying to get the younger generation. So now, how do you bring do you bring influencers in? I don't know that. The actual competition I think is pretty solid. I think even in the in the season with the hammer and stuff like that, they made adjustments, so I think there'll be some adjustments there. It'll be interesting what kind of
simulator courses they'll use. Do you use now of course that people are familiar with, or do you make it just computer based or do you put them on pebble b shue. I don't know. So I think there's there's some cool stuff. I like the entertainment value, I like them getting outside of their shell and the personality coming out. I think they'll feel more comfortable with that moving forward. But again it's more eyeballs on golf.
Yeah, we had Aggie pis On, who is one of the three architects who designed courses for TGL, which was, you know, fascinating because one of the great elements of golf is that like we get to play the course that they get to play. Not really, but you know, there's a couple of courses we get to play that they get to play. But here is something that's a complete challenge to these guys, only to the hand picked few who are the best in the world. They get,
you know, get to play these unique holes. I loved that element of it.
Yeah, yeah, there's there's there's a novelty to it. I was like, Wow, I've never seen something like that before. And then how are they going to deal with it? And I think it is pretty cool. Maybe they throw in one hole that everybody knows about, right, and I think the familiarity, like we see with Augusta, is that everybody knows what to expect from the Masters. It's the same course, the same environment, you have those memories and stuff like that. I think there's something to be said
on that. Yet, if we're talking technology, we're creating new golf courses and the creativity part of that I think is really cool too.
One of the elements that I did truly love about it was like, Tiger cannot walk seventy two holes anymore. It's pretty obvious that he'll never be able to. Even if he does, he's not going to be that competitive. You know. They've left him behind on that and it's exhausting for him physically and emotionally and mentally. But with tgl oh, the seniors can really play the game now, right, if they can get used to the idea of hitting
into a screen thirty five yards away. I think bringing seniors in, I'd love to I'd love to see call and play against you. I'd like to see these guys, a team of players and their coaches playing against each other.
I got to talk to my agent on that one, and I think that's the fun part is like you and I play golf, and a lot of why we play golf is the camaraderie. Our friends are the trash talking with dad, and I think if you bring that to this and yes, you're bringing a coach, a caddie, a whatever, you know that it's kind of like what you would be doing on your Saturday morning, you know, and you're throwing down ex show. I'm going to press
you on this and all that kind of stuff. That kind of terminology people get and they want to see the best players being able to do that too.
Yeah. Yeah, So I cannot let you go without giving us an update on what's going on with flow code.
Oh thank you. Yes.
So.
Flow code theflow code dot com a company that I started about six years ago, and it's basically tools, frameworks, and strategies to help somebody go from a fear state to a flow state. We have online, we have an app. We work with a lot of golf academies and golf coaches to be their official mental game partner. We have a junior academy. We do a lot of live events. I was fortunate to go to China and Thailand and Denmark and Slovenia last year, and we got some more
world travel going on this year. So it's really cool to get the mental game out there for all those players.
Is flow Code gonna end up with a simulator? Are we going to be on the golf course?
We'll see, We'll see. There's some stuff we're talking about.
Well, again, I want to thank you because you were a big part of what I wanted the celebration of a thousand episodes to be of Golf Smarter because you've been How do I explain how I feel about what you've taught us in the times that you've been with us. It's been remarkable, and your passion for it and your understanding and your ability to articulate it has just made it so important to me to get you back. So thank you for coming back.
Thank you Fred, and thanks for spreading the word on the Metal game