That Putt Was Supposed to Break to the Left! Vector Putting with John Grund

Golf Smarter number three hundred eighty eight, published on June eleven, twenty thirteen.

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I really don't think there's anything negative about endpoint is. I don't think there's anything negative about vector. I just find as a coach, as an instructor, I can get the essentials of my experience of how to become more efficient and more effective at performance through vector and that's what appealed to me. After I went to the seminar, I found wait a minute, and this started to ruminate within me.

Like Okay, what did I experience here?

And then one day I was asked to give a clinic and I go, how do I do this? And that's what I came up with STAG, which was my acronym for helping people get better at golf through my clinic or through basic instructing. And the overview applies to everybody. The actual application in certain areas will be more applicable

That putt was supposed to break to the left vector putting with John Grunt.

This is Golf Smarter, sharing tips and insights from golfers and golf professionals to help flower your score. It's worked for your host, Fred Green.

Welcome back to the Golf Smarter Podcast.

John Oh, thanks Fred, good to be here, and thank you.

So much for coming into the studio to have this conversation because it would have been just as easy to go walking around on the golf course. But well not today, because there's people out there playing okay, and we could probably maybe we'll do some video out there at some point.

That'd be great, some Golf Smarter.

Yeah, some video tips there.

But I wanted to bring you in and the reason I asked you to come in today is because I had mentioned recently that you had taken me aside and given me some lessons on vector putting. And we had done a lot recently about aimpoint putting. And when I told you about that, you said, now I got to show you this. I gotta show you this.

You got all excited about wanting to show me this.

So that's really where I want to talk about today, is the putting. But there's so many other topics that are so hot right now that I don't know if I want to do this now or we'll get in it later. But I think everyone's like, no, no, no, I don't want to know about the news.

Well let's talk about putting.

So explain to me.

Is it called vector putting?

Is that how we can.

Refer to it and everyone would know what we're talking about?

Yes, okay. There was a kernel in the Air Force.

I believe his name is mister Templeton, Colonel Templeton, and he was also a very very bright man, is often the case for some of those gentlemen. He was one of the early pioneers in Nassau flying I believe planes at higher elevations at supersonic speeds, and was involved in that process on many levels. Also an Avid golfer, and upon retirement discovered, you know, people just you know, if you look at the numbers, thirty two thirty six putts is an acceptable amount and you're par seventy two.

Gosh, that's that's fifty percent of the game.

If we go by what you know is allowable in golf, right and thirty six pots, et cetera, fourteen t shots.

And he thought people do this pretty badly.

Why And one of the things he thought was that people just don't read greens very effectively. So he felt that based on his mathematical background and probably trying to figure out how a spaceship is going to go from one place to another and amount of time it's going to take, a matter of friction involved all the things that are involved in space travel and travel in general. What about a golf ball traveling across the green? Couldn't there be some mathematical equation to that?

And that's not very dissimilar to what aim point exactly.

Okay, Now, I don't know how this all pans out in the world, but I think there's a lot of similarities on the mathematical side. I can't speak for am point, but my guessing is is There's probably a lot of similarities on the science side of aim point and vector green reading, and I think both are fine. The important thing that I've learned as an instructor is to be functional, and I want my students and the people that come to me, and not only them, but myself because I try.

I'm usually my biggest guinea pig is.

What are the things that make us better? What are the things that we're involved in? And both aim point and vector green reading do this. The vector I found was more functional in that it simplified things dramatically and gave a clearer picture of application for the individual to apply and move forward in his game and be involved in some basic fundamental areas which all good putters are when they're involved in the process of putting effectively.

You and I spent half hour right on a putting green at best. I mean, you just wanted to show it to me, and I was trying to absorb as much as I possibly could. But I got to tell you, the impact that it had on my next few rounds was significant, right, And I don't want to just say then I've forgotten. It's all done, and I'm still incorporating it. Into every green I walk on. But I definitely saw huge improvement immediately.

I love to hear. Yeah.

I mean it's like, is it that simple?

You know?

Because if I got it, it's got to be simple.

You know.

Fred I, I always enjoy sitting talking with you, But now that I'm in your layer, so to speak, in your in your studio, I notice your vast book collection. And I just sat down a book where a very famous instructor said that Matt Kocher and five swings picked up something and became the leading money when on the

And so yeah, I mean I think.

I've tried to break it down in my way even more functional because I'm more of a behaviorist. I'm a believer that the vector putting was a simple The behavior side of it was easier to apply while I was playing golf, and and that's why I think you got out of that thirty minutes.

Yeah, yeah, I think it helped you.

And I hope when I show people what I do in a small clinic and or show them as an aside in thirty minutes one on one or whatever. They walk away and they have some similar profound experiences like you did. I've fortunately, I've been a pretty good putter most of my life. I say fortunate in that most fortunate behavior is who was the There was a Raymond Berry was a famous wide receiver. I think one of his quotes was, when opportunity meets preparation, that's the true

On my part.

And it's usually the case, you know, you have to work pretty hard. But I started, I didn't know what

Here in a minute.

But if you're doing if you're performing a simple function of geometry and physics, and we can see what happens when the golf ball, then you're on the right track mechanically. So I think mechanics can be a little overtaught when it comes to putting, but what is undertaught is the behavior that is involved in becoming very proficient at putting.

Now you really got me.

I want to I want to get into this behavior part.

What did you witness? What did you see?

Because you, you and I were we chatted for over an hour before we started recording, and you were telling me stories about when you were caddying as a kid and you would count the posts on the on the metal fence and you would know exactly what your distance was based on where the ball was near that fence. I mean, you were figuring things out early. But what were the behavioral things that you were noticing that made impact.

Well, I noticed that that that's better. Putters practiced more, and not necessarily at long a long time, but they had a routine that they followed, so that.

A practice routine or a practice preshot routine, a practice routine, and so that they would usually practice before they played on the putting green, and they'd spend a few minutes after the round on the putting green.

Really yeah, yeah, Why why is that important?

Well?

I think that that at a certain level there is a mind body connection to what you're trying to do. And we realize that all putting services aren't the same, and so there's a cult.

There's a variety of reasons.

Like when I played professionally overseas or when I was playing on tour, that was a common behavior among the guys that were scoring lower.

I go, oh, okay, that's what I've always done.

But why you know, and well, you know, one of the things is we would I when I always say playing in Canada, for example, we would play one week, say in.

Surrel outside of.

Quebec, and the greens would be you'd have eight different speeds on eight sixteen. You know, eighteen different greens.

Really, Yeah, it's just the way the green is that.

Possibly I would like to know that too, you know, I would try to figure this out. Maybe greens were watered differently on certain holes, or maybe the grass would grow at you know, grain was growing differently on certain holes.

I used to ask all the time. So, if I'm going to practice on the putting green, is this pretty much representative?

Well at the rest of the course the mine. I'm in a provincial area of Canada that does not.

We mowed the grass with the same equipment, and we watered the same way and it's all maintained, right, Yeah, of course it can be the same.

But and I think as a standard and we're talking early eighties here now mid eighties, and I played in Africa too, and you'd think that. But in more provincial areas where you know, maybe the mowers weren't set at

And I learned that right now.

You're going to make me do this, give it a brief. You got to share with people what it is briefly because they know who you are.

Oh okay, they don't know who you.

Are, okay.

Well, I was playing professional golf in the early eighties and I was very good early at taking notes at playing.

You know, I didn't hit it as far.

I didn't do a lot of things, but I felt that being organized, even though I wasn't. My brothers were better boy Scouts than me, but I felt that being prepared was a big part of the equation. I was a John Wooden fan growing up, being a UCLA guy. Again, the behavioral aspect is huge, and.

That is all pre GPS pre.

GPS and you know, my day, in my day growing up, it was pretty much, you know, a cypress tree at one point fifty or a plaque in the fairway maybe, And so what did you do? I just got well, because what happened was I started making yardage books and then for my other mini tour players to support myself while I was playing many tours, and out of that became one of the common denominators, which is legal in the rules of golf, is a sprinklerhead is a static point.

His name was Gorgeous George. He had a graphic background.

He started making yardage books for tour players, and those are pretty common when I first started playing in the early eighties as a professional. But he took a lot of yardages from sprinkler heads. What pros would do later, they'd go out and they'd get name plates and they'd drill them or screw them onto these sprinkler heads for yardage.

Can you help me out?

And I at that point any sort of money come in my way was a bonus, and so I said, okay, I'll figure something out. And at that point I started figuring out sprinkler markers and how to attach them to sprinkler heads. And so the issues are being cost efficient, being visible and.

Can they last?

And you know, so I did that and quickly that led into a business for the which I just sold after twenty six years called grun Guide manufacturing sprinkler markers for golf courses. Awesome, so Braill Brifley, So I've measured golf courses for years and years and years, using a variety of different ways of doing it, laser technology, GPS and all sorts of things. And so I've been involved

All right, John, behavior, let's get back to it.

Yeah, So ultimately that you know, my background has been about a lot about about things that are maybe not so obvious to golfers. And a lot of my time was spent in the presence of some really great golfers. And I was fortunate to have just enough game to kind of be let in the room, so to speak. Maybe not long enough time, but enough time that I can still call friends and acquaintances, guys that are still

Especially as a younger man. It's probably still today.

There was a lot of really talented people at teaching that had some wonderful successful experience at golf. So, you know, one of my first lessons was from Jerry Barber. And to say, at fourteen, and this is in the early seventies, this man was only ten or so years away from being a leading money winner on the PGA now maybe a Varden Trophy winner on the PGA Tour, multiple winner on the PGA Tour, winner of a major on the

Or to go to oh gosh, Little Poison. Paul Runyon.

I took several lessons from mister Runyon, another short game specialist guy, although he taught the long game too, and he produced. You know, there's a lot of great guys that were had a relationship.

So I had this experience.

Of being with people that that not only walked the walk, but talked to talk. They did what they preached that they they experienced at firsthand at a high level, and I sought them out just because that's the way I was, you know, and maybe to my detriment sometimes, uh, you know, but because you can't do everything.

Uh.

But I look back on it now and and and it was uh, I think it was worth my while.

Right.

So now, how does that bring us back to vector putting and what you've learned to teach us vectory?

Because you know, I I I first came across aim point through some very smart people and watch some guys on tour performing it, mostly the caddies, the the the h. In the beginning, it seemed like aame point was h. The pros would be just they would know just enough to be dangerous, but their caddies were a little better and and and uh, which is okay when you have that relationship with a caddy and you trust and everything else.

Striking, but I found and.

I appreciate how gracious you're being about not saying anything negative about aim point, But I know, I.

Know, I don't think there is. I really don't think there's anything negative about am point is. I don't think there's anything negative about vector greene. I just find as a coach, as an instructor, I can get the essentials of my experience of how to become more efficient and more effective at performance through vector Okay, And that's what appealed to me. After I went to the seminar, I found Wait a minute, and this started to ruminate within me, like Okay.

What did I experience here? What just happened? Wait a minute?

And then I and then one day I was asked to give a clinic, and I go, how do I do this? And that's what I came up with STAG, which was my acronym for basically helping people get better at golf through through my clinic or through basic constructing. And the overview applies to everybody. The actual application in certain areas will be more applicable to others some people. STAG is more of a as much about behavior and vector green reading as, but it's about different behaviors.

That are involved in becoming becoming sufficient.

At the actual application of putting now practicing. It also works too because it gives you a behavioral background on which to how do I work on my putting on a daily basis? And some days certain aspect applications of STAG may be more important than others, but they all apply, and they are all basically, you know, four basic areas of putting that are essential to becoming a better pus.

What STAG is, Yeah, that's what I'm I'm guessing that STAG is an acronym absolutely, okay. Yeah, and it stands for speed two.

Feet and straight, aim and green reading.

Okay, So let's speed two feet two feet and straight and straight okay, and then aim and green reading. Right, all right, let's start it speed. I'm gonna break this down.

Yeah, great, and so so speed really is And you know, it's funny. I I was always a pretty effective putter, but I've I've sometimes surprisingly longer distance.

Uh, struggled with my speed?

Yeah, everyone does.

And I've spent again, I've spent. I was fortunate to spend some time and still do. I can call him an acquaintance and maybe even a friend I named doctor Craig Farnsworth. He's an optometrist that teaches putting instructing and if.

You ever he he's a name point instructor, and he's an ame point instructor.

But he's also very smart man, and and he's on an automical down autometrist down at the poem right And one of my one of my main as an overall instructor, one of my main approaches to every lesson, and I almost especially with almost every student, I tell him right up front, I said, the quality of relationship you build to your target is almost always directly proportioned to the

Okay, exciting.

What you mean by that, Well, you know, it has a little bit of my background as a golf guy that measured golf courses, but it's also a little bit of what I found that I did to become a

And so.

I'm building myself a better relationship when I notice where the pin is in the green, and what the colors of the trees are around the green, and where that bunker is. Like there's some great course designers that try to trick you a little bit. They'll put bunkers, say thirty forty yards in front of the green, and so when you look at the flag, you see just the top of it and you think, oh, that green's way far away from me, or that's greens just over the bunker, right, But it's really not.

It's an extra forty yards.

Yeah, we were talking about that, and we were talking about the course Peacock Gap right here in Marien County and on number ten eleven twelve, the par five, there are these bunkers that are kind of blocking the green, but it looks like it's you know, if you're coming in our long approach shot, but what you don't realize that there's probably fifteen to twenty yards between the bunker and the green, and that's very Yeah.

There's a there's a famous a golf architect. I think it was Aw.

Tillian Hast Tillingham Till Tillian Hast. I think it's Aw, but I could be wrong on that.

Butter Tillian has designed several golf courses and a lot of them are some tremendous golf courses. He grew up in I think a part of Scotland and he was the greens keeper originally at a very famous course.

I think it was. I don't think it's Royal County down but anyway.

Yeah, well he it is Aw tilling.

Hasty and anyway, he's very famous for putting these bunkers out in front of greens. And so this visual perception, in my opinion, really enhances your ability to hit a good golf shot because our brain is an amazing effective machine.

Speak for yourself, okay exactly.

But but when we try to override it, we sometimes get in the way. Golf is notorious for that, correct, So so when I build that better relationship to the target. I'm programming my brain in a way to act in a more efficient way.

So familiarity of the golf course is key to this. Well, not only familiarity, but familiarity with the moment. Explain that, Well, you know, I may have driven, you know, you may have played your home course one hundred times, two hundred times, three hundred times.

But.

Y'all a sudden you're faced with a golf shot. And the golf shot requires not the familiarity to the whole golf course shot, but the whole golf course, but that golf shot. So in this moment, what am I capable of doing?

What?

You know, when you break it down into every golf shot has an essential like there's several elements. What are the actual elements of this shot that the pragmatic issues like distance like uphill, downhill, and those things are very straightforward. But the things that aren't so obvious is how do I get my body to adapt to this moment to hit this golf shot? And how do I get more in tune with what the actual yardage is? Is it slightly uphills, it slightly downhill? Do I really know that?

But you know, where am I uphill or my downhill? Am I on a side hill? You know? Do I have grain working against me? What's my friction going to be? You know?

Wind?

Wind can be a factor sometimes usually pretty strong one to do that, but yeah, it can be a factor. Subtle ones can just be a factor in my stability.

To hit the putt.

Time of the day when because the condition of the green is radically different than right.

Especial especially on Bermuda greens where you have grain. You know, later in the afternoon you've got a little more grain than you maybe had in the morning. Big factor, right, And so all these things are important in the speed and the friction that. So speed is one of those things of building a better relationship to the target, and stagging itself is just building that better relationship to the target and how I do that.

Okay, So we've gotten through the S and STAG. We've got TAG left, but we're out of time. So what we're going to do? Can you stick around?

Sure?

Okay, So we're going to do a members only episode. We'll pick it up at tea okay for Stag and we'll we'll talk in more depth and I'm going to pick it apart as best I can with you and we'll do the rest there. So we will continue the conversation with John Grunn on the upcoming episode.

John, I appreciate you.

Yes,