Ah, I'm saying what you're seeing from fort Or, Texas, and I play at Merivsta Country Club. This is golf smarter, golf smarter. Remember one thousand and thirty.
You know, I'd read Golf in the Kingdom, I'd read Bagger Vance, I'd read Son Golf, and I was kind of two minds. You know, half of me is like, I get it. I totally get this golf, meaning of life, Buddhism, quantum physics deal. And the other half of me was like, come on, you know, this is Pat Summerle and Jack Nicholas and plaid pants. There's not something like this is a big excuse for guys to say, like, oh, it's a spiritual experience. I'm going to go play aging holes.
So I started taking these lessons. I thought I'm going to test this. So what I did really was, you know, half the book is pretty much me taking non traditional lessons, and the other half is me playing golf with various kind of spiritually inclined golfers or golfers who are spiritual people.
Let's take an opportunity to know Josh Karp even more before I hand over the microphone to him.
This is golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred Green.
Welcome back to the golf that you know what. Welcome home to Golf Smarter.
Josh, thank you for having me Fred home. No, no, that's okay. I'm moving into your house. Let's do it.
Let's do it. That you are, you are definitely in the shack, in the county shack.
Happy to be here.
And I just want to thank listeners who've been writing in saying thank you and goodbye, and you know things, like one person said, probably could count on one hand, a number of podcasters are still around from two thousand and five, right, Probably true. You know, some people have said I was a pioneer in golf podcasting. It's like, okay, you can do that. I don't I don't mind that. Then this email I got from George this morning, Uh,
sad to learn that Fred is moving on. Although I do highly recommend retirement, and.
You're looking forward to it.
So oh so much so after this Uh, And he said, I believe I've listened to every Golf Smarter podcast episode. Yeah, I'm not so sure. George, but that would be amazing and can confidently say this is what I loved that Nearly everything I've learned that is worth learning I heard on your podcast. So it's on your shoulders, my friend.
Oh my god, that's a bird. That's a lot, that's a lot of golf knowledge. Yeah.
It definitely gets in your thought process about what do they want to hear? What are they It's like, yeah, I'm ya, No, this was all about me, so I don't care. It's like, how do I become a better golfer? Literally? This is what how do I get better at golf without having to take golf lessons?
Right? Right?
It was the whole goal.
Which is something I think we all can relate to whether we're hosting a golf podcast or not.
Right, right exactly, And let's say that we had we had teased the fact that Jim Waldron was going to join us for today's conversation, right, But Jim just had hip replacement surgery and his recovery is not going as he expected. He was patching a lot more and so we're going to have to delay that. But since I stopped doing interviews back in December, I've been taking lessons
from Jim, and once a month we get together. I send him videos of my swing from two views and then he rips me to shreds on him and tells me everything I'm doing wrong. And so what we were hoping to do is have my next lesson as this podcast episode. But when Jim is ready, I'll come back. We can do that.
That I would love you.
Be fun because Jim was also featured in your book Right Straight down the Middle.
Absolutely, he was one of my absolute and he needs.
To read this book actually to get to know Josh.
Thank you. That No, that was that was That was a lot. That was a really fun experience, and I just I like the people I met were so great, and Jim was one of my absolute favorites just his both his personality and his kind of story of how he became when he became yeah right, yeah, from the from the North side of Chicago too, so he uh perfect for both of us. I believe he caddied at
the country club my grandparents belonged to. I remember we shared some stories which which which weirdly enough, it's funny, my my. It's this kind of place on the north side of the city, and there were always like odd celebrities would show up, some guy and Martin and Lewis used to play there whenever they were in town. Yeah, and I remember seeing Dean Martin on Bengo night at
my grandmother's country club. So anyway, but so I don't know if Jim bet Dean Martin on the course, but Jim worked there, and Jim is the best.
He's got stories. Yeah, he's got years and years of stories. So yeah, we will get back with Jim when he's ready to do that again, and I'd be happy to come back.
And as with you, we will do that for sure.
But I'll tell you taking lessons with Jim has really been radical shift for me. I was my index was in the nines and tens for a long time, and now this morning I had noticed that I'm thirteen. So clearly I'm making changes and looking forward to turning those around, especially with my goal of trying to shoot my age
before I turned seventy six. Right, so you know what will happen, We're not sure, but again thanks to the ambassadors and the listeners who email me and text me, it's just been an amazing thing to build this community and grow it and now to be able to hand it over to you. They're wonderful people, and that I may take you seriously whether we do or not.
Well, that'll be a first for somebody to take me seriously.
So I've been right, and you had you had a really nice Facebook post talking about the transition, and and a lot of your people have said great things to you and wishing you the best of luck, as we all do.
Yeah, no, that was you know that, it was really I was excited to announce it and and I got, you know, a really nice response, and and you know, some people, some of my friends, just you know, golf people who I've connected with over the years, were nice enough to kind of spread the word. And uh, you know, hopefully, you know, hopefully we'll you know, they'll they'll they'll bring in some some other people to listen, and we'll just
keep going. I'm looking forward to talking to this great audience you built.
How do we get the book in their hands?
I am more than willing to uh give out some free copies. I mean they can find it on Amber. How about I'll ten too.
You're up to up to you, I mean, they're in your house, not mine.
Yes, I yes, I will. I am happy to provide a ton ton copies to listeners so we can do a giveaway of some kind. Yeah, so let's do that.
Okay, how should they reach out to you?
You know it? Well, right now, I'm gonna they can contact me at carp j. This is terrible. I have to get a new email, carp J k A r p j A two three two three at mac dot com or if you're on Facebook, you could just find me at Josh KRP on Facebook or on Twitter, and and I will the first ten people I will send a free cop free autograph copy of the book too.
That's awesome. Mine's autographed.
Well that that's n if you could read the autograph that My autograph itself is not too impressive, but that's why you type it's right exactly.
Can you imagine writing a book by hand?
Oh you know, I've i've.
With or writing it on a Did you write it on typewriter? NW?
You hadss No? No, I mean no, no, I mean I wrote it on a laptop. I mean but yeah, I am yeah. Thank god my career coincided with the existence of laptop, because I have written chapters long hand sitting in airport uh, you know, airport's waiting for flights and things like that, and then I have to figure out what I actually wrote when I look at my handwriting, so right right, and anyone who gets a free book will will see that when they see my signature.
So tell me what you have lined up now. I know that you had been preparing to do a podcast right before we started this transition. You were going to do it on your own and start from scratch. But let's let's get everybody involved already. Uh, let's talk about some of the people you're you're already recorded and you have lined up, and what you talk about with them.
Yeah, so you know, you know, my first guest is gonna be Christo Garcia, who runs Classic Swing Golf School on the show. Yeah, and Christo's amazing and he's got, you know, just a great story and a great approach to golf. I but you know, I really tried, you know, with the guests I've recorded so far, most of them, and I'm going to be adding a bunch of other people. But you know, are a lot of instructors talking about different approaches to you know, how to hit the ball
and how to get better. So I have I talked to Mike Malaska, who's terrific who talks. We had a great conversation really about you know, and not to get too technical, but he did a great description about talking to Jack Nicholas about the hands and how the hands are used in the swing, and and he's Mike is such a great instructor and just understands golf so well, and he really gives just this perfect description via Nicholas of the importance of the hands, you know, just in the swing.
I can't wait to hear you because I tried to get him on multiple times and never was able to. So I'm so excited that you're getting him on.
Yeah. No, And my Mike is great. I've got uh, Manty shine Bloom, who who was the world long driving champion at one time and is now an instructor, and Manti you know, And what I love about these guys, you know, about everybody, you know, everybody's you know, the human part of it is what's really interesting and kind of the journey to how they you know, got where
they got. And Monty his dad was Richie shine Bloom, who played for in the nineteen seventy two All Star Game for the Kansas City Royals.
Oh my gosh.
And and he and Monty was a very good high school baseball player who blew out his elbow, took up golf, of course, became immediately, you know, one of those guys who was shooting sixty eight within you know, eighteen months. But then he and he won this long drive champion he played in college, and then his swing, his game
kind of fell apart and he quit the game. I'm actually really surprised at the number of high level instructors I've interviewed who at you know, not a huge percentage of them, but enough quit at some point and just said I just can't I lost it. I can't do it anymore. And and Monty, which I love this, he went and he he he decided he went to a driving range and he would go there every day and
he would find the worst swing on the range. And he has an ability to mimic swings and he would then go mimic he'd go to another booth, he'd do their swing, and then he would fix it himself. And he did this for like a year. He would just go every day, find the worst swing, go to the other end of the driving range, imitate it, then fix it. And that was his way and finding himself, finding his own way back to his swing, you know, which I just I've always you know, just like love loved that
story and that approach. Right. Another guy who I actually worked with for a couple of days. It's a guy named Jacob Bowden who.
I've known Jacob for years.
Oh, Jacob's he when.
He first started this quest, he reached out to me and I had him on. I must have had him on a half dozen times.
Jacobs, He's great, He's amazing and and you know, and he's he's a disciple of Mike Austin. You know who was the guy who hit the longest drive in the history of competition? I think it like the seventy four US Senior Open. He uh, I think, And I'm going he hit a five hundred and seventy two year drive with a persimmon driver and an old golf ball. I think the conditions were right because it was in Vegas and it was very dry, and he had a good win behind him. But still five seventy two isn't bad.
And and I actually spent a day or two in Detroit with Jacob, taking some lessons, and it was really you know, because with the Austin swing, you know, the whole thing is, you know, you get your hands super high. It's a much bigger swing then I'm used to. And it's really about getting your hands way high in your swing and then kind of letting things fall from there. And I have always you know it certainly, you know, we all struggle with controlling trying to control the swing.
And I really had to let go. And I was like, this is never ever going to work. And the next day and it worked a little bit on this indoor driving range. The next day we went out and played and we I decided, you know, I was like, oh, you know, I'll hit one ball with my regular driver, you know, regular drive, and hit one ball driving like Jacob has taught me. And I was hitting the ball and it is not and this is no, not Jacob's fault,
this is mine. It is not stayed. But I hit I think on the first hole, I think I hit a two hundred and eighty five year drive directly down the middle, you know, and I hit about two forty two fifty usually and the ball flew.
Which I was laced to two ten. Ye, everyone thinks they hit it.
Oh no, no, let me let me tell you something. My father taught me very very young that lying about anything related to golf is the worst kind of dishonesty on the planet. So I've tried at least as much as like, I'm not going to say I'm the only the only honest golfer because I'm probably I probably lie about all kinds of crap, but I will or you know, conflate things. But whatever, and anyway I I do. I mean I can and now I can hit the ball, you know, longer than I did before. I can hit the mob
about two sixty. You know, not every time, but when I worked with Jacob, I mean I was hitting the ball two eighty and I was hitting it. The ball flew in a totally different way. I was like, it's going to go all over the place. And it was the straightest I have ever hit drives in my entire life.
Wow.
So and plus Jacob is amazing. You know A side note, when I was with Jacob, who is I think just turned fifty and who looks like he's forty. You're kidding, Yeah, he's fifty, he's fifty.
And I would have said he's mid thirties at best.
Well, and talk about a physical specimen. We were talking about that Brian Johnson, the redheaded guy who did the Netflix special. He's the one who's trying to live forever. He's the billionaire who's siphoning his son's blood and he's taking all these supplements and he has an app that's a longevity app. And one of the tests is can you stand up from sitting down without using your hands? And I said, and so he was telling me about it,
and I said, can you do that? And we're on the street in Detroit, and Jacob says sure, and he sits down without using his hands, like totally normal, just like loop down, and then stays there for ten seconds and stands right up without using his hands. And I was like, well, I'm not living forever, but that dude, No, no, no, no, off the ground friend.
Oh oh, sit down on the ground.
On the ground like cross like in a.
Squat or oh in a c who okay, never mind. I just I just like got up from my chair and he's like, yeah, no, no, I thought, I.
I can't get up from my chair with no hands. I'm seventy no, I'm at fifty nine. I will tell you I am not going.
To be okay. I'm gonna get on the floor. Hang on a seconds, let's.
See if you can do this.
Okay, I'm going to get a cross leg on the floor here and with out my hands.
Josh, I still see at the top of your head. Friend, Josh, can you I can't get up if I was okay?
So I well, I wrapped my I didn't go straight from cross leg, but I did get up.
Yeah.
And I'm working so hard at my core these days and working so hard.
Yeah, Jacob, Jacob is great. So I've got an episode with Jacob, you know. And then just a whole bunch of really great people. I talked to Jane Blaylock, who played on the LPGA tour good and she was great and kind of talked about, you know, growing up playing with boys and learning her swing from you know, from from the boys. I've got a couple of biomechanics experts.
I love that on the Scientists.
I don't know if you've had them, Rob Neil or Sasha McKenzie, I.
Think I have.
Yeah, he's great, He's terrific. And then like Bradley Hughes, Matt Forte and Sean Clement. I talked to all those guys and it's just a really great group. And then you know different people, you know, just a whole really and then just you know, some kind of golf personality type people. I talked to Peter Kessler, Wow, yeah about his friend his relationship with with Seve Palmer and Steed.
Oh excellent.
And he told me a great story about Sevie coming over to his house and throwing out all of his sixty degree irons because he said nobody should ever he's a sixty degree iron and uh, yeah, so you know, so it's it's really love this. Yeah, it's been so much fun. And you know, it's been I've learned a lot, you know, about the swing, and they've and plus I just they're great people and they're everybody has a really fun,
you know, compelling story. And that's what I love is I just I like the people in golf and I like listen.
To well they know how they don't. You really don't need many referrals from me. You've got your own lists. Although are there people that have been on our on before they other than what you've mentioned that you'd like to get on.
Oh yeah, I think, I think, I yeah, we will. Just I'm going to take a look at the list and see, you know who.
Who you've got to get doctor Bob Jones.
Oh that that is like right up there, because you know, I've really tried to. Yeah, I'm really interested. You know, I look at you know, you look at golf today and you look at you know, Rory and bryceon and all these guys, and one thing I know is I'm never going to swing like those dudes. Like they you know, they're born with the club in their hands. They are you know, stretching their bodies in places my body doesn't even know can be stretched, and exercise that, you know,
strengthening muscles I don't know I have. And you know that everything they're doing is just it's such a high level. But you know, I really love you know, talking and learning about kind of a more classic swing approach and learning about you know, the swings of guys like you know, Snead and Nicholas and Hogan and weiss Cough and Johnny Miller and all those guys who I watch growing up
kind of you know, who have swings. You know, when swings were different from each other, you know, when everybody wasn't just crushing the ball, you know, three you know, three hundred off the tee and then hitting a wedgend. So, you know, there's a lot of really you know, I love the historical stuff, and I talked to you know, and there are people like theirs. I talked to Tom
Bertrand who who runs basically a Hogan school teaching people. Yeah, and I love that they've dedicated their lives to one school of thought, you know, and that's always really interesting, interesting to learn from, you know, and why they pursued that.
I got an idea here, since we didn't have the opportunity to interview Jim Waldron together like we had hoped to do and still hope to do in the future, let's do this. Well, let's take a break, and when we come back, let's let's go back in history and really let the audience know more about you, and we'll bring back that first interview that we did together. Strangely enough, we're publishing this on April twenty first, twenty twenty six. That came out on April twentieth, twenty ten.
Oh Get out of Here six.
Sixteen years ago. That was episode two hundred and twenty seven, and this is episode one thousand and thirty of fresh content, So do that. Let's just replay and then next week on the next episode and you will take off with which christ Garcia. Yeah, Christopher's had on and he's great, he's entertaining. And what I loved about Christjo Garcia, he
was one of us. He's somebody who just came from being an amateur golfer but was obsessed and needed to get better and he did and be absolutely right, and he became really good on YouTube.
Yeah, and he's the guy who did it right. I mean he was really you know, he was shooting over one hundred I think after exactly and became and now he's teaching, so yeah, that'd be. Yeah. He's a great guest.
So so it's perfect, so perfect. So let's let everyone know we'll meet you again and we'll just play what ended up being a Mulligan's episode a while ago. But we're going to bring that one back. So let me just say now goodbye. I want to thank all the audience over the years who've come and gone. For the people who've criticized me, thank you very much. I took it to heart and I listened and I paid attention, and I tried to get better, and I'll be back occasionally.
We'll talk again. I'll give you updates on how my game is going and what equipment I'm playing with, whatever it is. We talk about where I travel to, and I'm going to miss this. I'm going to miss y'all. And I just am so so pleased to hand it over to Josh and put it in your hands, because it's going to get even better.
Well, I want to say thank you for trusting me with your show and your audience, and you are. I hope you'll be back as often as you want, and I hope you shoot under your age before you hit seventy six, as I know you've planned so.
Our guest today is Josh Carp, author of a new book, very funny book called Straight down the Middle, subtitled Shives, Irons, Bagger Vance and How I Learned to Stop worrying and Love my Golf swing. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast.
Josh, Hey, how are you.
I'm doing well. Thank you so much for joining us.
Oh, thanks for having me on the show.
Well, I'm excited to have you on the show because a couple of reasons. But first of all, I get your book in the mail from what is a chronicle press. Yeah, and I'm looking at going, well, this looks kind of interesting because it kind of fits into what we do. And the next day Jamie Zimron, who's just been on Golf Smarter and has been on multiple times before, she said, do you know Josh Carp have you have you? Have you read his book yet? And I'm like, wow, I
just got in the mail. Hang on his second.
Jed as if my seven year old will tell you Jamie is my son? Say, he always goes, you have a sunsey your golf sense, so so yeah, Jams all of our golf sense absolutely.
And also her brother is my congressman.
So right, yeah, I know that's the issue. I learned that when I played with her.
So yeah, yeah, so tell me the premise.
Now.
The beautiful thing that you get to do that I get to do with having the podcast is I can talk to for as long as I want. We generally go about thirty minutes. And I'm sure in your process of promoting your book straight down the Middle, you've done a lot of radio interviews. Chronicles very aggressive about getting the word out on your book, as they should be
because it's very entertaining, thank you. But you know, doing a radio interview, you may not be talking to a golf audience, which you are here, and they'll interview you for four or five minutes and cut it down to a thirty second cut.
Yeah. No, you know it's been I've been on all kinds of different shows, you know, some golf shows, some sports, some NPR, and strangely enough, since the book kind of touches on Buddhism and things like that, I've been booked on a lot of self help shows and just the oh to tell me about it, Like you think you're laughing,
you should hear how much my wife is laughing. And I got booked on a show, and you know, you get a notice from your publiciste and it says, okay, you know you're gonna be on this show for you know whatever, here's where it runs and all that. So anyway, I get booked on this show and we start, the guy calls me up and he goes live and he goes for the next hour, our life strategist, our guest life strategist is going to be Josh Carp And I
was like, oh, these poor people. I was like, guest life strategist, I probably screwed up you know, half the people in Shreveport, Louisiana, you know. And in the one hour I was on, so it's yeah, and then.
Pulled with this guy. Yeah yeah, and you talk about golf and he was talking about life strategy.
Well we we we worked golf into life strategy.
It's that's good to do on show.
But yeah, it was real. I mean it was hilarious. It was just like, oh my goodness, guest life strategists, this is going to be trouble. So but it was fun.
So where was this guy able to I don't even want to go there. Let's talk about your book. So what I loved about it is it felt like I was as I'm reading this book, it feels like I'm listening to a Golf Smarter podcast. I mean, what you did is what I've been talking about and interviewing all these different mental coaches and golf instructors with the same concept. I mean, you put it down on paper, but you
lived it. I'm just getting you know, if I get thirty minutes to talk to Jamie Zimron or Jim Walden or doctor Joe Parent. I feel like I got all this phenomenal information out of them for such a brief period of time. You get to kind of live with these people and go work with them, right, Yeah.
Absolutely, I mean it was you know, the kind of the basic premise of the book was testing the non traditional kind of Eastern spirituality inspired world of golf instruction, and kind of the humorous premise being you know, inner Piece lowered my handicap, or Will Lwering my handicap helped me find interner piece and there. Yeah, no, oh god.
No, I've just it's like, how did you get to this point saying okay, I'm going to be able to write a book about this? How did where did you? Well, you're a writer, right, so you you have a publisher and you proposed this to them? Or how did this come about?
Yeah? You know what happened was I had written my first book was a biography of this guy Doug Kenny who wrote Animal House in Caddyshack and start National Lampoon and died. Yeah it was it was interesting and he died like very mysteriously right after Caddyshack came out. So I had finished that book and right around that time, I I had taken up meditation and my wife took me to a meditation seminar on the North side of Chicago.
And I in there and I always say I was, you know, I was like everybody there was exactly who you'd expect at a meditation seminar, you know, sandal natural fiber clothing, big long beards, whole deal. And you know, I'm sitting there in like my Chicago white Sox hat, and I'm already bad news to everybody. And we meditate and I was like, you know, I was like I gotta get out of here, you know, go out and have dinner, go see a movie. And then we finish up the meditation.
With a white Sox hat. You wanted to go out and have a steak, and everyone else wanted to go have a Tofu burger.
Absolutely, oh no. They put out snacks, I remember, and it was like, you know, yeah, it was like vegetables and vegan buns. I was like, no thanks. So we go around the room and we all have to talk about what meditation has done for us. So I said, hey, you know, meditation is improved my golf game. And I mean, you know, it's like everybody just looks at me like, this is you know, if there's a blasphemy in Buddhism,
this was it. And the guy who ran the some are kind of very calmly, says he goes, Oh, the sak Young is an avid golfer, and the sak Young is this guy sack Young Rimpochet, who is the kind of spiritual leader of this Buddhist organization called Shambala, which actually doc parent has been affiliated with. And so my first thought was, okay, this is like, you know, the Dali, Lamasine and Caddyshack. I write magazine articles for a living. I'm like, I'll go play golf with this guy. You know,
he'll wear flowing orange robes. You know, he'll enlighten me during the course of eighteen holes. This will be great. So I started pursuing him, which proved ultimately impossible, but which took about two years during the course of writing the book, where I was trying to get him to play golf with me. And in the meantime I started, you know, I'd read Golf in the Kingdom, I'd read Bagger Vance, I'd read so on Golf, and I was kind of of two minds. You know, half of me
is like, I get it. I totally get this golf, meaning of life, Buddhism, quantum physics deal. And the other half of me was like, come on, you know, this is Pat summer Ale and Jack Nicholas and plaid pants. You know it's there. There's not some big link. This is a big excuse for guys, you know, to say like, oh, it's a spiritual experience. I'm going to go play aging holes. And so I, you know, it was like, okay, you know I started taking these lessons. I thought I'm going
to test this. So what I did really was, you know, half the book is pretty much me taking non traditional lessons and the other half is me playing golf with various kind of spiritual figures of some kind or or either spiritual spiritually inclined golfers or golfers who are you know, spiritual people. So and it was it was a blast. But that's how it happened that I wrote a proposal after I after I kind of took my first lesson, and you know, wound up with Chronicle and that was it.
I spent the better part of a year and a half while my wife was pregnant with our fourth child in ten years. There's great irony in all of them for her, you know, playing playing golf for a little bit for the timing was really good.
Four kids in ten years yeah, okay.
Well I'm I'm living it now.
So yeah, right, you're not into college years yet. Huh. You better sell a lot of books, buddy.
That's my plan. The things you don't think about before you have four kids. Oh my god, I got to pay for these kids to go to school.
Do you have any Do you have any daughters? No?
Oh? Boys?
Oh so you don't have to pay for weddings.
No, but you also have to give up on having anything nice in your house because everything just gets trash. It's true. Yeah.
Yeah, I raised two boys, and there are holes in the wall from from the games of pickle in the hallway.
Or yeah, my brother in laws that there were holes from them throwing each other occasionally into the wall, you know, out of out of.
Throwing your kids into the wall.
No, no, no, no, my brother in law is not not. Oh okay, they have not.
Let's get back to the book. We can talk about your experiences, but I'd really like to talk about the people that you worked with that we've talked to on this show, and there is I got a list of at least six people that we've covered on this show that you've already worked with. And I think what I want to do is start with doctor Joseph parent tell me about I've had a chance to play golf with him once, and I've had him on the show like four times in the last four years. He's just I
just love his stuff. And actually the reason I started the podcast he was our very first guest is because the book Zen Golf, to me was really a game changer. Literally it changed my game and my approach to golf. So it was so great for me to get him on the show, and it just meant so much to me.
You know, I first of all, I mean, you know, I had I spent a day with him and just a wonderful guy and great company and you know, in a for real Buddhists too. Yeah, I mean, you know, really the whole deal. He's he's it. And I was one of the things I told him was, you know, I had reads on golf a couple of times, and there's this thing where you can where you play golf with people and you can tell they're under the influence
of the book without even them telling you. Because several times they played golf with people and they hit some terrible shot and you'd hear them go under their breath. Interesting, and I was like, you've read on golf, haven't you. Oh yeah, So yes, I went and I spent the day with Doc and ken Zieger, who's uh, you know, kind of his right hand guy. And it was really fantastic.
I mean, we we did some meditation practice and we you know, went and played played golf and just kind of talked as we were playing about some of the philosophy behind he's done in some Adoc's background. And you know, the one thing that was very, you know, really remarkable was, you know, we talked and he was saying I was asking him. I'm like, God, wasn't it intimidated intimidating to work with with VJ? You know, because I mean, my god,
you're working with VJ? Saying no, he said, you know, he said, I have unconditional confidence, and I was like, oh my god, it's like talk about I was like, I'm the anti unconditional confidence guy, you know, so but.
Right, just like that's where.
I want to get I'm like, I'm shooting. I was like, okay, there's Michael unconditional confidence on the golf course. But yeah, I mean, you know, it was really you know, I was. I really enjoyed his company and I learned a great deal from him, and really, you know what I what I enjoyed about him was we could have kind of a serious I did not convert to Buddhism and working on this book, but I learned a lot about it.
And I learned a lot from him about Buddhism and applying it to my golf game and really, you know, not being reactive when you do you know, when you do something lousy, and that happens to me a lot. So it was. It was very very good. It was good. You know, I'd read the book, but it really you know, to see it in practice. You know, when he hit a lousy shot, he was just like it was gone, you know, he was over it and just marched on. And I was like, that is a fantastic example for me to yeah, follow.
And that's true. I mean, so good, he's living it. He's walking the he's walking the talk.
Oh absolutely, yeah, good good.
Well, I need to break for a little spot here. It's kind of like the perfect place to break because this episode of the Golf Smarter Podcast is brought to you by Audible dot Com. Are you an audiobook guy?
I occasionally listen to audiobooks, but yeah, I'm.
Well, then maybe you should sign up for Audible dot com because they will absolutely there is the internet. It's leading provider of audiobooks, with more than seventy five thousand downloadable titles across all types of literature, including golf, and features audio versions of many New York Times bestsellers. Now, for listeners of the Golf Smarter Podcast, Audible is offering a free audio book, which is the perfect segue here to give you a chance to try out their service.
And so maybe what you should do since your book Straight Down the Middle is yet to be an audiobook, maybe you and I can work on that together. Okay, but Doctor Joe Parents, books, Zen Golf, Zen Putting, and his new one, The Art of the Mental Game are all audiobooks. So if you haven't read that yet, maybe this is a way to get into Audible dot com. By just reading Doctor Joe Parent as an audiobook. You can do it while you're in your car. You can do it while you're working out. You can do it
on the range when you're warming up. I mean, I've seen people with headphones on in the driving range and I'm like, how do you do that without being I would know how they do it without getting tangled up? Let alone, but that would be a great place the start Doctor Joe Parent The Art of the Mental Game, his newest or the classic to me Zen Golf and
Zen Putting. They are available at audible dot com and if you'd like to sign up and get a free audiobook of your choice, it doesn't have to be one of the ones that we suggested, but you can go to audible podcast dot com slash golf Smarter. It's audible podcast dot com slash golf Smarter, and we thank them very much for participating in our show today. But we want to get back to your next person that you worked with that we've had on the show, who I
think is phenomenal, Jim Waldron. I like having him on the show. I think he is so right on in what he talks about.
Yeah, he you know, really, in addition to getting to work on my golf game and getting to learn all about this stuff, one of the things I really I met such great people. I mean you're really interesting people.
I mean, you know, one thing, and I'm sure you know this from your show, when you really start to look at golf instruction, I mean there's you know, like a method of instruction pretty much for every golfer on the planet, you know, for there's so many methods out there, right and that, yeah and yeah, and you know, and different things work for different people, and so it's really interesting. I mean, I think one of the things I loved about Jim was, you know, he had very you know, theoretically.
I really enjoyed he he is really thought through so many different disciplines, you know, in a non traditional way and integrated them into his instruction. And you know, and just a fascinating guy, a guy who's done a lot of different things in his life, you know, and comes to this as a really good golfer too, which you know, which which is which is impressive. But no, we had
a we had a great time. We spent two days together in Portland or outside of Portland and Banks, Oregon, and yeah, you know it was really you know what one of the things, you know, one of the premises behind you know, say bagger vance, for example, is that there's this idea of having an authentic swing. And one of the great things about Jim was he was like, well, that's not true. He's like, he's like, there is not
an authentic swing. And he was like, you know, in what other world do you hear people say, you know, there's an authentic you know, inner pianist, or an authentic shortstop. You know, it's not like and and one of the things I love that he said was he goes, you know, he's like, golf is the one sport. He's like, you know, if you've kind of been messing around at it for a few years, you expect to take three lessons and
be scratch. And he said, and it's like being a guy who messes around on the piano and takes a couple lessons and expects to be know, doing concert quality recmanooff. You know, right, He's like, and nobody there's no other discipline or endeavor in which people expect this, He's like, But in golf, we all expect it. We all I think we're going to be here and that we are magically, you know, just three tips away from being fantastic.
So that that was really, well, that's why we keep playing though, right, absolutely, I mean we all want these single digit handicapped and we don't want to work at it.
Yeah, oh for sure. I mean there's no which. Yeah, it's a great it's a great metaphor, certainly for the way I live my life, you know, you know, wow, I could be great and not have to do much, you know, but uh yes, I mean you know that was We had a great conversation about that, and then
you know, we really did. You know. One of the things in his school is called balance point and and he one of the things he said that you know, everybody I worked with, you could really only ultimately when you go back to integrate stuff in your game, take away you know one or two things, because you know, everybody told me forty six things, I could go and
integrate all these things in my game. Right. And one of the things he said that had not occurred to me, which maybe just my stupidity, he said, he said, Ben Hogan, you know, for all the work he did, you know, hitting balls into his hands blood, He's like he worked on balance all the time. And I was like, well that makes a lot of sense, you know, but it
never occurred to me. You know, we did some some some really interesting balance drills and trying to find the right way for me to find physical balance, and you know, and I think I think it's kind of a quote from Jim, but he said something like, you know, the vast majority of you know, failure in sports performance is due to to poor balance. And yeah, that had just never really occurred to me. And I think, you know, in sports, where you're moving, your body has a way
of naturally balancing itself. Yeah, but it's weird when you're just standing there, you don't have that movement to balance you so.
Right, and it becomes right, and it becomes really evident how off balance you are when you finish your swing and where you finish your swing if you fall over leave you know.
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know, it's funny, like, you know, one of the things people when I've done some interviews, they say, you know, like why do you think golf, Why is golf the sport that gets this you know, spirituality, looking at your true self in the mirror kind of thing? And I said, you know, I think it's because the ball doesn't move, because you know, in any almost any other sport, you are being reactive, and being reactive for the most part, you know, kind of takes you out
of thinking. And with golf, you got nothing to react to. You just got a ball and you and the club, And if the ball is going to move, it's you who's got to make it move. And I think that's a big part of it. I think, you know, when the ball is moving in other sports you can't think so much. But with golf, you know, you're just like right there and it's you and your brain and the ball.
Which is pretty much your introduction is the worst club in my bag is my brain? And is it Wait a minute, I think it was. I've been quoting this line and I realized, wait a minute, it came out of your book. Is this the one that someone said to you? Yeah, you have here. Just at the end of your introduction, someone said to you. She looked at me and with an amused expression, this is the person who doesn't play golf. You know where I'm going with this, right?
Absolutely?
Sure, go ahead, it's your line, man, go ahead.
I believe the quote was as a friend of my wife's, who was very dubious about this entire endeavoring, we had a couple of great conversations about it, and she's that I was explaining the book to her and she goes, well, of course, people think golf is like life. You play against yourself and you can never win. And I like, you really understand golf.
Like nailed it right there. You play against yourself and you can never win.
Yeah, that's for she should keep doing this.
Let's move on to jamie' zimron because we just had her on the show again. This is a woman who you talk about coming from different disciplines. She is all over the map and she has brought it all together on the golf course. And I find her absolutely fascinating. Oh yeah, how is your experience with her?
You know, it was? It was, it was great. I mean, I you know, I first of all, like you know, the one you know, my my four kids, my my seven year old is the one who's been most interested in all this and he and the only thing he remembers other than her being my sonse is that she had me in a driving range with an aikto sword like a golf club and he just thought that was
the coolest. But yeah, I mean, first of all, I mean, Jamie is you know, she's an LBGA pro and just a fantastic, you know, fantastic golfer and on top of it, a great person. But she yeah, she she's integrated aketo. I believe she has a psychology degree as well, and really from Stanford no less exactly, And and you know, it was really I mean I came to her, I think at the right time in the book. It was about the middle of the book and I was kind of starting to get the hang of this a little bit.
But so what she said really resonated for me. And one of the things we talked about, which can sound you know, in description a little out there but makes sense, is we kind of talked about moving energy when you're playing, and you know, we we had a great long discussion on a practice here where she said, y know, what what what starts your swing? You know, and I gave her like forty six different answers in like ten seconds. You know, I was like, oh, my right hand, no,
my shoulder, no, my knee, Oh wait was this? And you know, and I couldn't even identify it. And we had a long talk about you know, kind of an aiketo you know, the flow of it, you know, like the guy who created aketo, who's a guy called O Sense, was this great martial arts master who really learned how to use energy. And I mean they said, you know, he could people would attack him and he wouldn't even have to touch them. He could just kind of turn
their energy against them, which I'm not. I don't think I'm going to get to that place in my golf game. But you know, we talked about where, you know, when you're hitting somebody in aiketo, where should the energy be. And it's you know, you want it right in your fist or your hand or your foot when you're making contact with the person, and that's where you want the maximum energy when you do something. I had not really thought of golf that way, about the energy really ultimately
going through you into your club. And so we talked about kind of building things from the ground up for lack of a better way of putting it. And she, you know, one of the things I my swing was just so completely reliant on my arms, you know, and I was really swinging. I mean I was moving my
legs and feet, but my arms were leading everything. And we spent a lot of time on the practice tea, working on beginning my swing really from my feet and using my left and step to start the back swing kind of pushing down and in, and then my right in step pushing down an end to start my downswing. And once you know this and I hope this will come across. Once I started doing that, and I was kind of able to envision my arms kind of being along for the ride a little bit more than being
the thing that was generating my swing. That just I mean, I started hitting the ball so much better. I mean, her her lessons were probably you know, among the most impactful in the book and really changed the way I thought about how I swing a club and made me enjoy swinging a club.
Oh interesting, which.
Is also you know, one of the things I learned, and people are was like, what do you take away from this? You know, And the one thing I learned was, you know, you should really learn to enjoy swinging, because that, you know, make make your swing something you enjoy, because I think so many of us are swing as a source of frustration, and we see it only as a
vehicle to get the ball from here to there. And I think if you like, really learn to enjoy swinging a club, you know, it's it's like running, and if you're just running the lose weight, it's a lot different than if you're running because you really like running.
Wow, that's an excellent point. That really is fabulous. Oh yeah, I wish I came up with it right exactly. You're you're just the messenger, right, absolutely. All right, So other names on here, and I'm going to skim through because I want to get to one specifically, since we're running out of time. People that have been on this show, I swear we approached. I hope that we get to play golf together someday.
I would love that anytime.
Yeah, but you let's see you work with Catherine Roberts.
No, I did not work with Catherine.
Oh but she's on your she's on your website.
Yes, yeah, I put her on my website as somebody who you know who has a does something linked to this, And she and I, okay, we emailed a bunch of times, and I was actually going to go to one of her seminars and I can't remember. I think a couple of my like two of my kids got sick and not gonna happen.
We never Well, if you ever get a chance, she's wonderful.
Yeah.
She was interviewed her a bunch of times and spent some time with her as well. Now Steve Cohen over the Shivas Iron Society, and then Michael Murphy. Did you get to work with him?
He doesn't, I mean, yeah, no, he doesn't.
He was he Yeah, I mean we've had him on the show a couple of times. He's a wonderful guy.
Yeah. You know, when I was working on the proposal, he and I had a brief phone conversation and he and he was great, you know, and really kind are you?
Are you a devote to you of the book? You know, I love You've read it and you know that it once and you're moved on.
No, you know, I've read it a couple of times. One of the one of the reasons I've read it a couple of times is because, you know, like a lot of great books, it takes a while to totally understand. I don't know if I really totally understand. I did not get it right.
Good, thank you.
I just like it takes a little bit of work, and I think that's one of the appeals of it is you know, you gotta It's not like you just read it and you're like, okay, boom boom boom. There's an easy answer it it's it's a lot of stuff and it's kind of you know, you got to think. But yeah, I liked the book a great deal.
And yeah, have you ever read the.
Match that I buy? Mark Frost, Yeah, I've not read it.
I've I've read read it, read it. Oh my god. He was on the show. He talked about it. Besides having a beautiful speaking voice, what a phenomenal story. One of the better books I've ever read in my life, right next to Years of course.
But oh thank you.
Well, of course, all right, I want to ask you about one one of one of the people we've had on the show a couple of times, and I get more reaction to this guy than anybody else, Fred Shoemaker.
Yeah, and no, I didn't work with Fredd either, Oh but he was.
He had another persons on your website.
No, I'll tell you something. I'll tell you that I know because I wanted to kind of give people links to places that are spiritual.
Okay, got you.
You know what I will say of both Fred and and Stephen Pressfield as well, who wrote Bagger Vance. Both of them I asked I wanted to work with Fred, and Fred gave me one of the most gentlemanly, polite, you know, turndowns you could possibly give. I mean, he was such a nice guy and and really, you know, it was very kind to me and just said, you know, like, hey,
you can come take my thing anytime. But I really, you know, I write golf books, and you know, and and and you know, I don't want you necessarily writing about what I do. And I was like, yeah, that's that was totally fine. But I mean, just a total
gentleman and a super nice guy. And the same thing with Steve Pressfield, who very graciously wrote a blurb for my book, and I asked him to play golf with me, and he thought about it and then he said, you know, I don't want to even though I've written this book, I don't want to put myself out there as somebody who is speaking authoritatively on spirituality. And I was like, you know, that makes a lot of sense. And both guys just total gentlemen and really nice nice guys.
Okay, good, yeah, well very yeah for a tchoemaker, one of the nicest and hard to drink, hard to track down, but I loved. I loved having him on the show. Josh, I need to know what was your handicap before you started writing the book?
It was an eighteen?
What was your handicap when now.
I got down to an eleven last summer kind of after I finished the summer, after I finished the book, I was playing more like a twelve or thirteen. But you know, like every for you know, I've rationalized that I'm an eleven permanently, you know, since it's my best handicap. It's my handicap forever. And my excuse is last summer I only played like about six times because things were
too busy. But when I'm playing a lot, I think, you know, I'm an eleven, and I got down to an eleven very consistently for a while.
Okay, so then all of a sudden, now the whole thing is valid, No, absolutely, you know, And these people did help, and these this thought process has helped.
Yeah, oh oh, it's helped, you know. In mass I mean, first of all, my swing is such a so much better of a swing than it used to be. Okay, and I'm a mental game wise, I'm so much better. The funny thing, I have a friend I write for Golf Tips magazine and a friend of mine who's my editor there. But halfway through the book, he was like, let me get this straight. He goes, You're going to see people for one or two days and then you're
moving on to another person. He's like, anybody will tell you that is absolutely the stupidest way to possibly improve your golf game. He's like, he's like, everybody will tell you find a person and stick with them. And you know what was really interesting is they helped me in ways that no other, you know, instruction I've ever had has ever helped me. So yeah, it improved my game immensely.
And that's exactly what has happened to me in the process of doing this show that I think that my metal game has gotten so much better and there's been elements in my swing that have been improved that I started the show. I was around in eighteen nineteen and now I'm well, I've gotten down to an eleven. I'm up to a thirteen now, But yeah.
But you're really at eleven.
No, I still think of myself as a fifteen.
Oh, so you're more honest. I'm like, like, I've been eleven, you know, I have been.
And I when I was there, I didn't believe it. That's part of the problem. When I was down to an eleven, I'm like, how's that? I know, come on, so I couldn't I couldn't maintain it because I didn't believe it.
Well, it's I don't know if you've had the experience if you talked to guys where some guys were sinking digits, and they'd say, what a burden it is, because when you get there, you're spending your whole life trying to maintain it, you know, and you're always kind of teetering on the edge. And I'm like, I'd like to have that burden. That would be that would be great for me.
I interviewed one guy who said, have you ever noticed the correlation between how many days a month somebody works and their handicap? So a guy who's like a guy who's a nine probably works about nine days a month. Right, Actually, that's a really good point.
Well, what was that that there's that there's that joke about Yeah, you it's either your lawyer or your doctor. They said, you know, the better a golfer they are, the more you should be worried about the quality of service you're receiving. So yeah, but I I will happily you know, I would happily be you know, a five and let people wonder wonder about my capacity as a journalist.
So well, again, the book is called Straight down the Middle SHIVI us Irons Bagger Vance and how I learned to stop worrying and love my golf swing. There you go, Jamie's Immron right there, right. Yeah, absolutely, it's great and it's really a fun book to read. It's very funny. I love your voice in this and I would definitely tell people to go on It's available on Amazon, I'm sure, and so that means it will be in our golfer Smart at golfsmarter dot com. Unfortunately it's not on audible yet,
but hopefully someday it will be. Yeah, exactly, So, Josh Carb, thanks so much for joining us on the Golf Smart podcast and best of luck with the book.
Oh, thank you for having me on the show.