Hi.
This is Gerar Daleman's from Booie, Maryland and I play at Enterprise Golf Course.
This is Golf.
Smarter number nine hundred and seventy two. I tell people all the time the Limp model. If you've ever been to one that I've been to several, and they're really fun, they're exciting, the players are excited to be there. And it's a team concept. Team Golfworks, who've had the tour partner with them from the beginning. And let's say, let's do this. Let's have an Irish team, Let's have a South African team, Let's have a Mexican team, a Spanish team,
a South Korean team, a Canadian team. We'll have a Texas team, We'll have a Sea Island team, We'll have a California team, and fourteen times a year we will get together. And this is kind of like a Ryder Cup instead of it in USA and Europe. And all these teams from around the world are coming to play the Irish team. How many T shirts and acts of that Irish jerseys which you sell, and no one understands
the licensing concept behind this. I think five point seven billion dollars is spent every year in college football licensed purcha ducks. Ever been a licensing opportunity in golf until this There is with the Ryder Cup, which happens every two years. We'll think about having an event at Bethpage Black and it's the Americans Texas, Sea Island, Scottsdale Versus Ireland.
Here comes Rory McElroy and Sean take the best players from those countries like we do at the Ryder Cup and do it fourteen times a year.
Is the PGA Tour doomed? And we're going to get some controversial insights from golf agent Mac Barnard.
This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred Green.
Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast.
Mac Hey, thanks for letting maybe have you come on. Brett, It's good to meet you.
It's good to have you on. This is really special because I've never had the opportunity to speak to a golf agent before, and so now that I've let that out of the bag, explain it is to me what you do?
Okay, well, after me, you probably won't have one on Again, our business as an agent is a little different than what a baseball or football or basketball agent is. They sign a kid from college and then they sell him to a team. That's their job. There may see be some little a few other deals they may do, but that's pretty much their job. Golfers, they'll have a high school coach, to have a college coach. When they turn pro, they are on their own. They have no peers, no bady.
So we're agents in the sense that we are trying to get deals and create some revenue. We're also the manager or the gm We're the ones that manage the caddies, the teachers, they're trainers, they're psychologists, all trying to pull together for them. Most of these kids have never had a job, much less run a company, and so now they've got three, four or five employees. They have to have an accountant they have, so we're the guys that
kind of oversee all those things. We do all their logistics, so we their hotels, flights, cars, whatever they need, we handle that and pretty much in our company we do everything but hit balls form when it comes to golf. So it's it's a little different than just being that you know, suit and tie agent going in and you know, trying to negotiate these deals. There's a lot that goes
into it. And from you know, from thirty four years of this, the stuff that we do there has more effect on their performance than anything else that we do.
I would think. So it's interesting because for the years that I've been doing this, I've frequently talked about how a professional golfer is their own team. We don't talk a lot about what happens on the tour. We may talk about the people on the tour, but we don't talk about what happens on the tour last week and what's going to be next week and with the gambling ons, That's not what we talk about on this show. It's
how do we become better golfers, smarter golfers. And I've talked a lot about how, you know, professional golfer is it. He's got to do all of it and manage it himself.
So I've always been fascinated by that concept, where, like you said, baseball, football, basketball, these agents got to come in and make promises to these kids and their parents of what they're going to be able to de liver and try to become their best friend, right, And in a way, those agents have to look these kids in the eye, look the parents in the eye, and feel comfortable about lying to them in this in like making promises that you know, I'm going to be your number
one guy. I'm there for you all the time until the next phenom comes along, and then they've got to move on and grow their business and get other agents. Well, he's going to be working with your son now and I'm going to be moving you know, happens all the time, but that's not how it works for golf. So it's fascinating to know that you're not coming in to say we're negotiating a deal with PGA or live for you. No, that's not what you do. No.
Well, I mean, on the contrary, you know, these agents that are having to quote lie to these guys. They may have a client for four, six, eight years. I have clients for thirty years. Wow, I'm interviewing them as much as they're interviewing me. These are people that we are close to, I mean as close as my family. And so you can imagine we have a rule that you know, I've had to let a couple of clients go because I see their name pop up on my
phone and my stomach turns and life's too short. And when you've got fifty clients or fifty three clients, this is a partnership with us. They make bogies. We make bogies, so you know when you're I always tell people I won't sign a client if I can't take them to dinner. And why said, well, I want to treat see how he treats people that serve him, because I'm going to be serving him and I want to see his reactions and how he does things because I don't want to
be locked into a relationship. It isn't about the money and just to go whoever can make you the money. These are people that I mean, you're going to have to go sell them, market them. You've got to believe in them and who they are and what they are. And you can bypass a lot of problems in the recruiting process, but not signing those people that are just going to be really pains in the ours. And so it's a little different. Just it's not a transactional thing.
Now there is groups in my business that they they'll come in and say, look, I'm the best in the business and I'm going to be your main guy. And I tell these people there's no way he's going to be your main guy. If you've got this player, they'll say that, they get them into contract and they ship them off, and that happens a lot. Now we're a lot different. There's a bunch of us in the business. You may have somebody you may want to be your guy, and you can have it. Somebody wants me to be
their guy. They call me all the time. But in reality, you're going to see a lot of different of us out because you know, there's a lot of GOP being played and we're all around the world. So that's the different part. There are people that get in our business that think it's like that I'm going to woo this guy and I'm going to convince him to sign with me. We're going to see a kid on Tuesday in Florida, and they're like, what are we telling? I said, we tell him who we are and how we do our jobs.
We wanted to pick kit. We want him to pick us because he knows who we are. We don't want to try to tell him what he wants to hear to sign him, because then you're in that whole different dynamic of the relationship. And there are no promises in golf. The people might make them, I can't tell you what you're going to do, so it's a little different.
Winning on the tour once is a big deal for a player's career.
Well, it's amazing if you want to. I mean, there's a lot of one time winners, and then that list of two time winners goes down, and then five time winners go down, and people ask me what is that, and I said, well, I've got a guy that we use this terminology called talent minus. Talent minus distractions equals performance,
and distractions are a lot. I got a twenty two year old kids, got not a care in the world, and then he gets married, then he has a kid, then he has another kid, then he wins a golf tournament. Now he's got new friends. Now he's got more media request, now he's got more contracts. So all these shirt, these logos you see on these players, that's not just the logo, that's time. So all those logos may have two, three, four days a time. So now they're distracted, they're not
practicing like that twenty two year old free willing. Then they buy a couple million dollar house, get them a ten thousand dollars a month mortgage. So they're just all these things that happen they win that first time. But really the main thing, and I just had this conversation with a kid, is expectations will destroy you faster than anything you have. And we try to convince them that when you win a golf tournament, it doesn't mean the
next week you play, you're going to play well. I think you know, Davis Love was in client for a long time and Davis won twenty one times in his career. Now that's pretty amazing, right.
That's a phenomenal career.
And I think he's played seven hundred and sixty one tournaments, so he's lost seven hundred and forty times. Now, losing has got you know, and that's the other thing. You know, amateur kids are used to winning. Winning out here is creating a living. And it's not necessarily you know, winning getting trophies, but it's a special there's a special talent or a frame of mind to do what Tiger and Phil and these guys do that they can go win and they don't let the expectation bother them. You'll see
a lot of guys I don't want to go. Max Holme is a guy that has shown up and really great player, and he's not playing well right now. And I don't know am I do not represent him, but I imagine the expectation that now every time he hits a shot, it has to be the best shot he's ever hit. I mean it drove Ian Baker Finch off the tour when he won the British Open a long time ago. So we try to keep the expectations. Once that tournament's over, you're back to square one and you react to what
you're going to do. Now you can all of a sudden win one tournament and think, well I should win all and I have those kids go I'm not playing well. I'm like, you're playing like you always do, Like you're doing just fine. But the competition keep people playing. But that list that goes from one winner to twice, winning five times and then to get to ten times, I mean, it's it's it's a miracle.
It is when you talk about going out to dinner with them to see how they treat people. Early on, we did an episode a long time ago we were talking about doing business on the golf course.
Yeah.
And the advice was never do business on the golf course. What you do on the golf course is learn if you want to do business with that person.
Well, put will put. Yeah, your life can be a lot better if every client you sign you believe in. You have a trust in them, they have a trust to you. There's not this you know, what have you done for me lately type attitude. I mean, unfortunately for everybody in my business. And there may be some guys tell you I'm lying. How well you play determines directly how much money you make on and off the golf course. When Davis Love or Justin Leonard won a major championship,
I just had to be by the phone. It was going to ring. And if you've got a guy shooting seventy five every week, I don't care who you call, you're not going to sell them. So most most of the deals that are done are incoming. There's not someone out selling. There's not somebody going door to door in New York City. Is that you have relationships with these companies. I'm always calling companies and saying I've signed these two players out of college. Bill, I know you're not looking
for anyone, but these two guys. I want you to know who they are, so when they show up and I call you, you'll know what I'm talking about. So I spend a lot of time sharing companies my clients without selling them. I just want you to because I build relationship with you know, American Express, whoever. I always like to just introduce them to my new guys. I said, keeping eye on these kids and the watch and see if he fits what you want, because it's not. I can't.
I don't. I see guys on tour. There's a player out there that's got to He's got an endorsement deal with a company, and I promise you he doesn't have how to use the product. And I don't like unauthentic endorsements because they're going to go spend time at these companies. In other words, you know, so Bass pro Shops, you know,
credible company. I'm not going to put someone that doesn't hunt and fish with Bass Pro Shops because their appearances are going to be at hunting shows or fishing shows, and I want them to be excited about going and doing it. You know, the guys that love finance, I love getting them a deal with the you know with
the finance company. So when they go to announting, they're involved in that element that they get to enjoy instead of it being I've got to go do this because those people become their family too, and I want them you know, if I say, look, you gotta go to you got to go to LA and spend the day with company ABC, I want them to go.
Yeah.
I mean, I can't wait to see those guys. And that's a much better than are you kidding me? I got to go all the way out there and do that for a day, day or something. So so a lot of that goes into what we try to do to make their lives own and off the golf course a lot more pleasurable.
It's a funny minute ago you were talking about taking a client out. He says, I'm going to take you to LA and we're going to meet a company ABC, and you feel like you had air quotes around ABC as if it's a random company. But if you go to LA and you're meeting with ABC, that's probably a network exactly right, like oops, x X acts okay, so or ex would be a bad example as well. So how do you weed out the sponsors? How do you determine and I understand it's like you want them to
be able to know the product. Like my I have a client that I to production for called Protivity, and I've been with him like fourteen years or something, and Protivity you can now see it on Matts Fitzpatrick's shirt. Yep. Now it's a good fit. They're an international consulting firm and they're really into spreadsheets and you know, the numbers and stuff. Well, Matt Fitzpatrick is kind of perfect for
that because he's such a geek on his numbers. So matching him up with a product or with a sponsor that they understand the product is really what you have to do.
Yeah, well, I'll give you an example. Lucas Glover is a client and I'm older than him, but I was having a problem with sleep apnea and Lucas said, and I said, but I don't have time to do a sleep test. And Lucas says, hey, there's a company I use because Lucas uses a sleep apne machine, has for several years, and they do a test. You can do it anywhere. They'll send you the test, it downloads, they'll tell you the diagnosis. They can then prescribe, send the product.
So I do this. I go and I'm on the road. I do it. They come back, you got sleep at I knew I did. They say, here's what you got to do. I talk to a doctor. They send me the machine to my next tour stop. In the hotel. I use it for the first night. Best not a sleep I've had in thirty years. So I call that company and go, hey, why are you not advertising golf? Why are you not involved with this? Because this is and honestly, we're trying to work that deal out and
it's not me going trying to make money. But I look at a company that says I didn't know about this. How many people travel that don't have the time to go to a sleep or sleep in a lab. You guys should be out here selling this thing, and we're trying to work on that. But a lot of that kind of stuff, you know. I meet people all the time with companies and they think it's five million dollars to sponsor a player, and I'm like, oh gosh, no,
you can get a lot tons less than that. So I'm always trying to clarify with companies what's available and what can they get out of it. You know, we don't use much ROI. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to tell you what's seeing a logo on somebody's shirt is. But we do know that in golf, the demographic watching golf has more spendable income, and so having your logoing golf does raise the company's value because you know this is
a higher demographic. And that's not mean, but I bet the per capital of earnings of a golf fan is more than a wrestling fan. And it's not dot dot calm. So a lot of the companies you see, they just get a lot of it raises the awareness to probably a demographic that can afford it. And that's why you see role As, you see America Express, you see MasterCards.
So but a lot of that, you know it. And again after thirty some years, I probably know everyone every one in these companies, you know workday and most of these executives, the CEOs, the reason they're in golf is they love golf.
They love golf, they play golf. Yeah, that's with protivity as well. And when Matt Fitzpatrick won a major, that money morning protivities. They reported back to me that protivitis web traffic was massively increased.
Oh absolutely. I mean now with Google, you said, with your following, and you're sitting there and you see that what company is that you punch it in and that you never know? But that's why, that's why God has been so popular amongst those companies. And and you know, I've told people, you know, four minutes the ear to the masters, and you get four minutes of time with that logo. You've paid for ten years of that deal, just like that, and so but a lot of is education.
But the great thing about it is like if you go to Augusta, if you go to the US Open, if you go to Pebble Beach, all those CEOs they're all right there and you can just walk up and talk to them. And I can't tell you a many times I've brought a player over to introduce them to a CEO. And you see the CEOs of multi billion dollar companies and they look like a twelve year old and they I've had. I had one CEO asked for an autograph, which blew me away, and it was the
sweetest thing I've ever seen. And I thought, here's a guy I'm making more money you can ever spend he's this powerful guy and he wants this guy's autograph. I said, that is and that makes GOP cool, you know, I mean that's yeah, it doesn't make it cool.
It does make it cool, but it doesn't ensure the financial future of the game. And it seems as if the prize money continues to go up but may not translate to viewers on TV, which is probably where most of the revenue comes from. Right, Okay, So walk me
through what's going to happen. How are they going to make this work where players can continue to generate a tremendous amount of income from winning if the league, when I'll call it the PGA at this point, PGA Tour, Yeah, may not be able to afford to do this.
Yeah, we've had quite we've had quite a disruption in the last three four years with the thing called liv GOFF, which was a new team concept.
Never heard of it.
Yeah, and the premise behind it obviously is different than the PGA Tour. So I just walked through, somebody through this about where we are on the money. So pre nineteen ninety five, the tour was probably growing at a five to seven percent rate. You know, they had Jack Nicholas and Arnold and then they had Greg Norman, John Daly came in. What a show that was. But it
comes creeping growing. It wasn't nineteen ninety two. I had a client keep his tour card making ninety two thousand dollars for the year.
Wow.
And then this kid named Tiger Woods showed up. And that wasn't a draft pick by the tour. The tour didn't hold a big draft and draft Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods showed up, played in a tournament and obviously between him and mister Nicholas, two best players ever. And he brought in the to the tour that was never seen before. So here's this little five or seven percent uptick each
year of growth, and it grew five thousand percent. Tiger shows up, and the Tiger effect was, I mean, contracts for all of them, like off course contracts, they would go up in tenfold. I didn't get any better negotiating it. Just he raised the market level. So they got on this.
He brought eyeballs to the game.
Yeah, and like excitement that's never seen. No one has seen this kind of game. And so this went on for a long time and they rode this. I mean, the TV contracts went up and everyone benefited from Tiger. If anybody thinks the reason they make a lot of money is for any other reason, Tiger was the wrong. It was Tiger, and it gosh, Tiger made me a lot of money. I mean, just because my contracts for my clients went up. So that just kept going on. And so through time you kind of get and we use.
I have two Navy seals that train train my players in performance, and they tell me that success creates blind spots. And the PGA Tour had a success beyond imagine, not because they did anything different. They didn't come up with a new way to show golf. They did Tiger. And this went on for a long time, and the TV's all rode it. Well, that Tiger effects gone, I mean, Tigers aged, and for some reason someone thought that that growth of the game that Tiger gave was just there
because of golf. And so when this live thing came in and started a whole new process and raised the numbers, the PGA Tour somehow thought, well, well, that they're doing the right thing, we've got to pay more money. They really weren't looking at the bottom line. They weren't looking at their product. They weren't looking at is the product better than it was? They just look at we got to play guys more money and they matched, and I
mean they can't afford it. It's unsustainable. I mean, I think Scottie Scheffler made sixty two million dollars playing got this year. That's wonder. Got a great kid, But it's not sustainable to the marketplace. And the viewership is down. Is it down because Tiger's not playing? Yeah?
Some?
Is it down because some of the top players went to live some?
Uh?
Is it because there's new streaming lines, or the viewership has changed how people watch golf. There's a lot of factors, but is it it's not sustainable as it is, and and they're making moves to this day and not one of those moves has been around producing a better product for the viewer. There's a group called the Savannah Bananas. I don't know if you know who they are. It's a baseball team.
Love I've been following them for four years and I love them.
And that's kind of what I'm saying. Pro Baseball did not attack them and say you're selling out stadiums for more money than we can sell professional team that was a different element is a different game. Live is a different game. There's a shot going to start, there's music playing, it's a little more relaxed. It's a really fun, incredible fun event, and they want fourteen of them a year. The PGA Tour reacted like this was just an attack on them, when they probably should have figured a way
to like partner, which is what they're now. They're doing right, and I think you're probably the next I don't think in the short future you're going to see an announcement that there's going to be some type of agreement partnership. A year and a half ago there was a framework agreement announced, and I think they're finally getting close. This
is what I'm hearing. I don't have direct knowledge, but yeah, the game, the market that you pay these players to let someone else just dictate all of a sudden how much they're going to pay them without looking at your bottom line, looking at your product, at looking at your
true revenues, just to protect a player. I mean, obviously it was a mistake and if it happened, they wouldn't have had to take the recent one point five billion injection, and they wouldn't be going after another two billion from Pith. My concern just throwing money at an issue doesn't solve it. And what they've done is they've constricted the play They've just announced they're going to go from one hundred and twenty five exempt players to one hundred exempt players. Well,
every sport in the world is expanding. If one's adding teams college football went from poor playoff teams to twelve, there's And now the tour is constricting. And the membership of the tour is who the people that run the tour are running it for. And they're essentially laying golfers off. They're taking away opportunities, and there's some unintended consequences to that. As I said, the tour does not draft players. They
show up. And if I was running a product, I'd want as many golfers I could get out there on that course, hoping that the next superstar was going to show up and give my ratings a boost and might give my product make my product better. And I think they're aheaded. I mean, I hate to be that way. And look, I'm friends with those guys. They're going exactly
the opposite way they should be expanding opportunities. Now, maybe the money won't be as much, so maybe Scotty only makes forty million for a year, but let's face it. I mean there's families having a hard time buying groceries with the rank inflation. You're going to turn fans off if you've got these kids out there playing golf and they're just wanting more money. I mean, and you know money's not going to make you happy. I guess you got to get it to find out. But I think
that it's unsustainable the model they have now. And even if they get more investment, if they don't look at their product as a whole. It's been the same product for a long long time. If they don't look at the announcers, if they don't look at the entire thing. And that's what I love about the Savannah bananas. If you ask that guy, they built their product for what the fan wanted. They wanted to give them. You know, Steve Jobs when Time said, I didn't build products that
we were capable building. I built products that the public wanted.
And I think but he also he also said that they don't know what they want. So I'm not going to do focus groups.
There you go, well, I'll tell them yeah, And I just think that's the mistakes. And this sounds like I'm I'm not being against them. I mean, the PGA Tour has been a wonderful. They've given away billions of dollars and charitable I mean, and that's another thing. You know, forever it was about giving back. I mean, they bragged about it. I mean, billions of dollars they give the charity. This happens and they say, you know, never mind, we're
going to go for profit. We're a for profit company now, and you're going to pay us for our players, and you're going to do these things. And they couldn't. They couldn't be doing the opposite of what I think they need to do. Again, they're running it. Maybe they're smarter me, But I'm out there with the fan. I'm walking in the ropes. I hear what people say. People tell me they will not watch golf anymore, whether it's live or PGA Tour because of the greed and what they perceive
these players. I got to tell you, my players do not I've never had one say I'm not playing in that tournament because the purse is not known. These guys play golf for a living, and that they don't look at it like that. They play golf courses, they play tournaments, that they may be better at playing that course they've had good success at. I've never had one to this day ask me what's the purse of that event before I commit to it.
Ever, many times I have asked guests who will rag about what's going on in the tour, what's going on in sports, what's going on anywhere or with instruction. But I've never been able to talk to somebody who's in the trenches in the way that you are in the business of golf, which's very different than the sport of golf. Perfect And I've said to them, Okay, I just got news. You've been made commissioner of the PGA.
Mm hmm.
So now I'm going to put it out to somebody who's in the business of golf. Mac Okay, you've just been made the commissioner of the PGA. What's the first thing you're gonna do.
Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna do some research and find out what really our market, our value is. I'm going to find out what our product is worth. I can't play, I can't keep this going if I'm going to pay the players more than we can operate, and I'm sorry if you need to go somewhere else and make more money. But our product, one of the product that we have,
is what we've been doing forever. And if you decide you need to go somewhere else and play for more money as other baseball teams, as Soto from Is said, every teams available, then you've got to go do it. But our product is this. We're not we're five of one c six. We're a charitable organization. Our job is to provide opportunities for our members. So yeah, we might be playing for a little bit money, but we're going
to be here for a long time doing it. I would create the corn Ferry Tour, which is the developmental tour, And this is one of the problems I have with the tour. People don't realize that the average age of the PJA Tour player is younger than the average age of the developmental Tour. Wow, that's the problem. Well, he's got a lot of guys former champions in their forties that are playing to prepare for the senior Tour. But
your pipeline of talent comes from that developmental tour. First thing I would do, I'd do away with all sponsor exemptions, all medical exemptions. I would have a qualifier of twenty to twenty four people a week for the corn Ferry Tour, so that somewhere this next superstar might find his way into the ecosystem and play his way on the tour, and then I can go sell them to the next TV deal. I would create more opportunities for the players.
There's more demand for professional golf now than there's ever been. The tour just went from one hundred and twenty five exem players to one hundred. They laid off twenty five players. I would go to one hundred and thirty five. These guys time to develop. It takes three to four years to develop into a player on tour when you get out of college. It's not overnight. The average career length of a PGA Tour player is two point seven years. When they go from one hundred and twenty five to
one hundred, they may have just reduced that to two years. Well, two years may not be enough to find your next talent line. I mean, I'll give you Zach Johnson, who lives on this island He's won two majors, the British Opening, the Masters. He played for four or five years on a thing called the Hooters Tour. No one's ever heard of it, but that's where he got That's where he learned how to compete. It takes a long time to compete at that level. I mean, there's so many new
things you've got to learn. I mean college kids coming out of college now they fly private to tournaments. They all brag about their practice facilities. Used to see these things. They're taj Mahal practice facilities. Everything is laid out for them. They got teammates, they got peers. It's just a wonderful environment. They turn pro, they're in a hotel room, not an ice one, driving a tahoe, playing in some tournament that
there's a g pro event. They pay one thousand dollars to play in it and to earn fifteen thousand if they win. But they need that experience. So if I'm the tour, I build three levels of tour. I build double a ball, triple a ball in the tour underneath the corn ferry, I would have almost a college, a place for college kids to come and start playing professional golf and then they could work to the corn ferry,
and then the corn ferry to the tour. I'm not saying that people don't want to see the best players play every week against each other, but let's face it, the four majors are what build legacies. That's what builds legacies. The other places is where they get They cut their chops, they learn how to play under pressure, and they earn a living. I think the PGA Tour started thinking because a Tiger that well, we kind of control golf. We should have the best product, and they should have a
good product. But they just would. I would probably before I would lay off twenty five Tour players, I'd probably lay off a lot of people at PGA Tour headcreters. So yeah, and I'm sure that that gets out. People are going to say I'm wrong, but and I could be wrong. I'm not. My opinion of from where I am, knowing what I've seen in thirty four years, the tour has never gone out and recruited a player. They show up and then if they show up, well, they sell them,
and they sell them until they're not sellable. And I had a client Boo weekly, Boo weekly, and I think two thousand and eight Ryder Cup. People never heard of Boo and after that, Boo was probably one of their biggest stars for like three or four years. I mean, commercials everywhere, right, but it doesn't last. This is a tough game. Very few guys have careers like Davis Love or Lucas Glove or Phil Mickelson. It's just there's a lot of names you start throwing out and you go like,
what happened to that guy? Well, God, it's a it's a hard sport. You got injuries. I mean, you got you know, you've got a lot of things that goes wrong, and I mean there's a million of them. If you ever say what happened to those guys? There's a guy named Hunter Mayheon. Remember this kid was I mean, got lee and where is he? Well, I mean that's what
these careers are. They're not long careers. So if I have a product that I know the career average is short, and I know that I'm selling the talent that is playing to the sponsors and to the TV deal, I'm trying to get as wide a net cast as possible for the best possible talent. I wouldn't say, well, we're just going to go with this particular talent. And and that's what I do, is PO PGA Tour Commissioner. I would create more opportunities for my members, not less.
Well, the thing that's so fascinating about golf versus other sports is you know, you don't have you rarely in golf have a dominant player, right. It's parody among all sports. It is parody, is what golf is all about. Because it's so hard to win more than once. That's why the Tiger effect was so huge for such a long time, to the point where golf courses were being built like
crazy during the Tiger effect. Yeah, and then when he started, when he started injuring himself and getting bad press, all of a sudden, there's no courses being built anymore exact, and courses are closing all over the place. And then COVID happens. OVID and top golf happens, and people are flocking out to go do these things. Now are more people playing golf because of top golfer. They just goofing around with golf because of top golf.
Yeah, well that's a phenomenon. You know, we've said the two biggest things that happened to golf in the last thirty years where Tiger was in COVID. COVID took participation of golf to a level that you know, it was all of a sudden, okay, not to be working from home and getting around to golf in every day and stay, I mean this island I live on is I mean the influx of people here and the people you see every day playing golf. I think participation in the game
is at all time high. Women's golf, I mean I watch women's golf as much. I mean, honestly for people like us, more relatable, how far they hit it, how they play, stuff like that. But so's the that's the tough problem is maybe people aren't watching golf as much because they're out playing it. One's the no one skips watching the Braves play to go play baseball. So I would want to know why viewership is down? Is it
the product? Is it the viewership has changed? But that's what I would be looking at as the PGA Tours. Our product needs to be as good as it can be.
And golf on television on television is now better than it's ever been because of things like top Tracer, where you can follow the ball instead of just seeing this little white dot flying through the air and not knowing what it's doing.
Right, Yep, things like that.
So golf television is great. It's I would much rather watch a tournament on TV than be there because it's so fast paced, there's so much going on and you can really follow what's going on. Oh.
Absolutely. We were talking about the you know, the Ryder Cup the other day and the Ryder Cup's going to be in New York, and there was some throwback that I think one day ticket for the Ryder Cup is seven hundred and fifty dollars and people that's outrageous. And I said, well, it's fourteen hundred dollars to go stand at the Yankee Stadium to watch the World Series. This is the biggest event in golf. I mean bat and
the Masters, the two biggest avents in golf. Sure, And there was some throwback and I said, well, if you've ever been to a Ryder Cup and you really want to watch it, watch it on TV because you're gonna see every shot. You go to a Ryder Cup, Man, the the excitement of being there. I tell everybody you've
got to go once. I mean, you got to feel I've got the opportunity with Davis being captain twice and being inside the ropes, and you can't measure the energy you're seeing guys that are millionaires, that are so good at golf, nervous shaking like you see nervous. Not many things, I think, you know, the Majors and the Ryder Cup are the only things that can evoke nervousness in these powerhouses that we watch these guys. I mean, it's serious, right, so in the sense that the viewership and the game
growing and all the opportunities. The only thing, like to say, the TV product, there's too many commercials, I mean, show some golf. The other thing I have a complaint with is I want to see real golf because you know, you see the three guys winning that week and they are on fire. Right right, there's a guy shooting seventy four. I want to see those shots too. Show me. God, I don't need to see Scottie Scheffer type in a three foot for par unless he misses it or something.
But he ain't going to. I want to go see the guy just shanked one over in the woods.
I mean, but that's like watching our game. Do we probably want to see what we.
Do outreach steel better. I mean, these guys the best in the world, and they the ball, They shank balls, they missed two photos, they make mistakes. And I always tell people how hard this game is. And I'm going to quote a staff but from one hundred and twenty five yards, and I'm going to the average distance put a tour player has for the year. I mean every player, for every one hundred and twenty five yard shot. And I have people go nine feet seven feet, it's twenty
four feet. So I played with guys and we're one hundred and twenty five yards and they hit it thirty feet and they lose their mind, and I'm like, dude, that's incredible. You just did. What do you well?
On TV?
This guy hit it three feet in a row. I said, that's the guy winning. He's unconscious. He doesn't know it. I said, in two weeks, go watch him. He's not gonna do that. But I would like to see that kind of And again this is going to sound bad, but there's there's a guy named John McGinnis, and nobody's ever heard of this guy, and he's probably one of the smartest guys in the game. But he played the tour, really good player. You know, I would have him in
the eighteenth Tower. This is the funniest guy. He was the game, He's played the game. But yet they take guys because of their record. They're playing record. He's won three majors. Let's let him talk about it. Well, you don't no offense, but just being great that GoF does not make you fun to listen to. And I've always seen too. Yeah, I mean you see the thing with the Eli Manning and those guys, and watch that's fun right,
it's just playing. But that's what I keep saying, is that they got into this paradigm of like, okay, well our announcer needs to be a major winner or he's got to be this. They don't look and say, we've got a guy that played the tour that you put him in that booth. You will just cackle, you know this laughter. And he's not being mean. It's like Gary McCourt or Gary david Ardy. I could see what I can see, what shot was hit. You don't need to tell me what happened, tell me something funny about it,
or tell me you know. And that's why I I want to European Tour in the morning. I love to watch because those announcers that was a dreadful shot, that was horrible, you know, because it was and these other guys they'll say, well it slipped, obviously you had you know. But again there's the common commentary needs to improve. And I'm getting this not because of me. I just like you. I'm being in the business. You wouldn't believe how many people want to talk golf to me, and they will
tell me, Man, there's got to be less commercials. Man, they got to show more golf. They got to quit. So all this I've done is not just me coming up with an idea. These are the golfer general public that I'm around all the time, sitting around at a bar listening, and I think the PGA Tour should listen more.
You talked about how COVID was so good. There were two industries that really succeeded and thrived during COVID, and that was golf and podcasting. I was on an island pretty much by myself for many years before COVID, and then when COVID came out, all of a sudden, there are so many golf podcasts out there, and it's true It's amazing what's going on and what people are saying about it and the interest in it, and you're right
in so many different ways. I'm curious to know your thought on why there is such a negative attitude towards Live. Do you think it was because of financial or political? You know a lot of people are calling it sport washing that they kind of muscled their way in and took some of the big names, which you know, I can't. I really have a difficult time when people complain about athletes getting paid a lot of money, because it's like, well, should the money just be in the hands of the
owners of the team. I mean, you know, these guys are the product, and sure they should get paid because everybody's making money here. But with something like this, Live came in and said, we're going to throw all this money at these guys who you know, listen, you're playing to earn a living. Well here, we're going to guarantee your living now. And I may be misinterpreting this, but we're going to guarantee your your grandchildren are and I are going to have to work. And it's like, how
do you walk away from that? Going yeah, I don't want to do that because I just want to win a major. So what was it that was done wrong? What if you had to redo, if you had a mulligan on starting live again? How do you do it so it doesn't upset so many people and you make it work?
The simplest question in the world. People don't realize that for years. This has been around for a while. This concept has been around in the marketplace five six years. And what people may not know is that this group went to the PGA tour and tried to have a meeting and say, listen, we went into the ecosystem, We've got money, here's what we're wanting to do. How can we work together? And some people say that the tour didn't take it. I said, the tour didn't take a meeting.
They never took a meeting. So you want you want to ultimate do over take the meeting. I always tell people, if you've ever read the book or to War, before you compete, before you attack your enemy, you should know who they are. And this was serious stuff. So that started it. That not taking the meeting was the original sin. That's where happened. Second thing is they didn't they didn't know it was true. They didn't know what it was real. They for some reason stuff they're head in the sand
and said, well, this is never going to happen. These players are not going to do that.
The PGA said that, yeah, yeah, I think there's a there's i think an on air comment that said somehow the players won't leave because they know what we'll do to them.
And and so that happened. And then this next thing was instead of once it happened, calling them up and say, hey, guys, this is real. Let's find a way. This is fourteen events a year now, this is not fifty events, and it's a new product. It's different, and I'll get to it in a second how this product could really work. But their reaction to the tour the playbook was well, we're going to run down the players at leave. We will publicly admonish them and tell them they're kicked out,
they're banished. And those are the guys that you were selling for your TV product. Remember we go back to that, like, these are the guys that you didn't build this guy, these were your products, Price and d Chambeaux, Brooks, DJ Sergio, these were personalities. And so that started, and then they just said you know what, We'll go after the source of the money. This is Saudi Arabia. Okay, we'll go after them because they do not eleven. Saudi Arabia was
behind an eleven. Well, I don't think so. I think we'd a bomb them if they were behind it. I think there were Saudi Arabian citizens on it that were radical, but that was their The tour essentially mined their own regress. In other words, they were the ones that turned it into such a negative thing. They are the ones that said this is blood money, I remember this and this, and they put all the rhetoric out there. They hired
protesters to come protests from nine to eleven. Jay went on I think he went on some Jim Natz and said, you know one thing is you will never have to be embarrassed to play for us. So they did it to themselves. They're the ones that made it such a dirty thing because Saudi Arabia is not just a ally of America. They're married to us. I forget how much they just spent with Raytheon, how much they mean they their partners with America. I mean Aramco is the Arabian
American old company. So the tour did it to themselves, and so they're the ones that turned the public tide. I have people that come to I have one player in the old tree that plays on LIB. I didn't sell them to him. He was never tour member. He earned his way. And I have people telling me enjoying that blood. I've had pretty people here go you're enjoying that blood money, and I'm like, what in the world are you talking about. So they're the ones that created
it all, and that's why it's so shocking. A year and a half ago, they make an announcement, well, we've got a framework agreement now to partner with them.
Well what's those shocking systems.
When they partner with them? The same people that you banished from the tour for taking their money, now you're going to take their money because you made a lot of bad decisions. So yeah, the do over was take the meeting. And it goes back to their success created blind spots, and so let's go to the LIB model. I tell people all the time, the live model. If you've ever been to one, and I've been to several, and they're really fine. They're exciting, the players are excited
to be there, and it's a team concept. Team GoF works, but we're the team GoF. I think they made a mistake is had the tour partner with them from the beginning. And let's say, let's do this. Let's have an Irish team, Let's have a South African team, Let's have a Mexican team, a Spanish team, a South Korean team, a Canadian team. We'll have a Texas team, We'll have a Sea Island team, We'll have a California team, and fourteen times a year we will get together. And this is kind of like
a Ryder Cup instead of in USA and Europe. Now we're going to show up at a Dare matter and all these teams from around the cunt world are coming to play the Irish team. How many T shirts and hats of that Hirish jerseys which you sell? And no one understands the licensing concept behind this. I think five point seven billion dollars is spent every year in college football licensed merchandise. Maybe it's four point seven, it's a lot. There's never been a licensing opportunity in golf until this.
There is with the Ryder Cup, which happens every two years. We'll think about having an event. Let's say you hold an event at Bethpage Black and it's the Americans Texas, Sea Island, Scottsdale versus Ireland. Here comes Rory McElroy and Sean take the best players from those countries like we do with the Ryder Cup, and do it fourteen times
a year. How about that Australian team show up to play the Australian team in Australia Ireland and you want to see the fan base because it would not make the Ryder Cup irrelement because the Ryder Cup is always going to be a Ryder Cup, but it would be a chance to each country to show up because it used to be the Ryder Cup was just against Europe or against Great Britain. There wasn't enough competition back then, so they said we'll add more people. Well, now there's
stuff competition for every country to have a team. And then people go, well, these guys would have to play too much golf, and I said, wait a minute. There could be more than four players on each team. You could have eight players from Ireland on the team and they don't just like any other sports, they don't play every match. That would have grown the game. That would have taken stuff to South Korea coming in the TV
product would have been off the charts. Who would not be wearing if you're from Ireland, would not be wearing their merchandise. Now, the naming, the majestics and the whatever, I just don't think it's going to work. I mean, the braves work and the match work, but I think we it needed to be a more national type situation. Now the Australian team is Australian and if you go to the event, they eat dinner together, they practice together, They're having so much fun they all eat together. It's
a wonderful product, it really is. Does it replace the PGA Tour? No, it's different. The Savannah bananas does not replace the Atlanta Braves. It's a different product. But guess what it does. Someone that goes and sees anything in goth enjoys it grows the game. And that's where that's where all this went wrong, is what growing the game makes everyone's life better? Right? So the do over take the meeting several years ago. Don't look at it like this is an attack on our business. Look at it
is what can they offer us? You imagine if they came in with the billions of dollars that they have put it into the hands of the PGA Tour and then through their contacts, went around the world and grew the game. Now I don't know if we can get the two passback in the tube. You know, I've had players tell me, well, Bryson D. Schambau wants to come play on my event, He's going to have to pay a penalty. And I'm like, wait a minute, if he
plays in your event, the event's better, I said. And I told him, guy, I said, you probably got a better chance of having to pay Bryson D. Champeau out and the parent's fee to play in your tournament, then you do. He don't have me to play a penalty because you don't remember your product now, PGA Tour is a for profit, for profit, so why would someone pay penalty to come help your product better. It's been mindless as far as I'm concerned. And no, and maybe there
have been meeting a lot. I know Jay was over and I think he's been over in so Awid the ABA last week, and I hear things are moving along. But how do you get the public to say, hey, I know we said this is blood money but we're going to take it now because we're for profit and I still want to make a lot of money.
Yeah.
Yeah, someone's gonna have to step in. Someone is going to have to step in and save this game. I don't know how it works. If it's the Augusta National. If I told somebody one time you think money matters, Augusta National could say, hey, there's no price, there's no purse. All you're playing for is a green jacket. Everyone shows up. You bet that's legacy. So and the other thing. Are any of my players worried about how much money they're making. I never hear it. These guys will all tell you
I made more money. I could different dream of playing golf. Like, they're not in there going give me more money. I've had a client. Look, they want to make more, but what are they going to do with it? I mean, fly a bigger jet. I mean, and they play what twenty five weeks a year? I mean, I got cat. There's caddies making millions of dollars now and they're working
twenty five weeks a year. Uh, I missed my call in I could maybe I could have caddied because I do about the same job so yeah, this, I don't know what happened. I don't know where it all went wrong, where nobody said, let's look at this in a more macro way. Maybe this isn't an attack on this, Maybe this is an opportunity to really grow the game. I just think again, I'll go back. Success created so many blind spots within the PJ tour headquarters is they didn't
know how to react, and now did their reaction. No matter what they do now they're kind of trapped either way. They've mined their regress. They now that they take the money from over there, they've got to answer the questions why you and not them? How could you be so mad at Brooks Keptka taking money from them, and now you're taking Where did you get? Where is your rights different than them? So I don't know. And it's like I say, Kim, we get the two pace back in
the tube. Because there's a lot of people to this day that tell me if they do a deal with PIFF, they'll never watch PJ. Tor Gain had that said to me, and I'm like, you know, I don't think you know, America is an incredible country, but I don't think we're I don't think we're like sinless in life. I don't We've probably done some things as bad as every other country.
I just think, you know, I always tell people Japan bombed US in nineteen forty one, okay, and we have toyotas and we have Sony TVs and we time pass us and things change, and you know, I always tell people, you know, And I'm not gonna get in religion, but you know, forgiveness and had we turned our cheek in nine to eleven and said, you know what, we're going to strengthen our borders, We're going to let this happen.
But to just go create more terrorists against us again, I'm not going to get into all that, but this is what I'm saying is where did you get to the point that where another goth league would cause you to react to a point before you hurt yourself? Right? I mean, it would make it, don't I don't talk to any business man that says this is the thing
to do. And you know the funny thing about all this and this is so here's the tour and now they're going to they got one point five billion dollars in investment, and now let's go say they do a deal with with Lift and they get all this money. Who says another tour doesn't show, Well, who's there's demand any business that there's a man in. So I look at it as like, what happens if another competitor shows up with another tour? What do you do now? I mean,
I don't know. So it's one of those things that, again I'm not the smartest guy in the world. I'm going on based on my experience in the game and watching the game and watching players, is that it seemed to me the PGA Tour was more worried about keeping their jobs than growing the game.
I can't recap everything we've just done, but the concept of team golf has not the way Live is doing it. I just I just never understood it. I don't know what they're doing, but the but the idea of doing it regionally. Like you know, you said the Braves and the Mets, that's fine, but they're not the Coca Cola Braves, right, And they're not the New York Life Mets, they're the New York They're regional. So a team for each country
makes so much more sense. And then in the United States, California, Texas, New York, Arizona. Yes, you have those teams, right, and then all of a sudden, as you were clearly explaining here, it's a merchandise bonanza. Oh and that's the whole point. I mean, why did college football, you know, West Coast teams, the Pac twelve broke up because they were looking to generate more revenue. Okay, I can accept that, right, you could, and and most people can accept. Yeah, they want to
make more money. But when someone throws money at it, they're against it. It really is mind blowing. But they did it wrong.
We talked about in business schools for so long. They and again I'm not trying to be Look, I'm just stating the truth. It's wrong. They did it the wrong way. And if and if anybody can tell me it wants to call me and say, hey, let me show you
what we did, right, I'll tell you. But I've got tour players that I represent that have less opportunities, that are in a living now on the PGA tour, which there are members of, and so how can you tell me that you're not serving your membership by taking away opportunities and that it's going to make it a better product. And then they tell you they're doing this because of the pace of play. I go, wait a minute, you have rules against that. But you know what, I don't
know how many people have ever been fined. But you find a guy here's coming down the stretch and he's he's slower, and he's getting ready to win two million dollars if you wins, and you're gonna find him ten grand. You think he cares, he and he goes get He's gonna get that fine a week later.
Right.
So now the new product in GoF is going to have to get faster, it's going to have to be more palatable to watch. You're going to see more golf and I don't know how they can get that. And again, look, I gotta tell you something. The PGA Tour when COVID hit, they did one of the best jobs in the history of anybody. They got those guys back out there playing. It was an amazing thing. I mean, j Monahan got that COVID hit. I mean, we're all out of work.
I mean we're sitting here like everybody. Now they got they got God, we had testing. We were back playing golf so fast, which was great for people playing golf. And you would think, man, they've got it. This is so incredible that they could pull that off. And probably one of the best things that's ever happened in business followed up, but probably the worst thing that's ever happened in business. And there's nothing you can do to deny it. And I don't you know. People ask me what should happen.
I said, well, they should just come out and say, hey, guys, everybody, we made mistakes. Let me sell you what we did wrong. We should have took the meeting, we shouldn't have been so vile, we shouldn't have attacked them, we shouldn't have done these things, and we would like, we want you to forget this. And what we're gonna do now is we're gonna start up members of the PJ Tour. We're gonna do everything we can to create as many opportunities for you to play as possible, so as much money
as possible, but not more money than it's possible. And that's where if I go back to if I was running the tour, first thing I do is say, okay, let's show you where we messed up. Okay, we're going to back up, try to get the public to understand what we did wrong. Do not be tear up Saudi
Arabia because that's where the money came from. When you've got how much money FedEx, which is the PJ Tour's biggest sponsor, how much business they do in Saudi Arabia, I just I just every time I look around, like, do you think this is not a global economy? And I know you don't want you know, we want to judge where money comes from and all this stuff, But that was nothing to do about where it was really coming from. That was just an attack point. They just
were pulling things out the bag. How can we make them look worse? How can we destroy their product? We will not let them out. We're ranking points. We will do this. I mean that that's not good business. It's not good business. Now, maybe it works in the steel industry, or maybe it works if it's the mob, but it doesn't work in business. And now when you're when your customer is is the US public or the world public, everything you did should have been looked at how does
it affect them? Like and if and if it was such a bad product as they said it never works and team GoF doesn't work, and if it was such a bad product. Then why did you compete with them? Let them go? And now we've got this new thing, you know, the Tomorrow's Golf League. I don't know if you know about what that is. You know, ye.
Not. I haven't really dug into it.
It's the Atlanta Drive Lucas Glover where Michelant. Lucas Glover is on the Atlanta Drive owned by Arthur Blank, who owns the Atlanta Falcons. There you go, Atlanta Drive. You should see the swag. It's cool. They're going to play indoor outdoor golf at a stadium on Monday and Tuesday nights in the winter. Tiger Woods is involved. Rory's in Bob, I don't. I think it's an awesome concept. I think it's going to be fun. But if team golf doesn't work,
then why are we doing team golf? Like Lucas is on a team with Billy of Horshall and Justin Thomas, So none of it makes sense to me. I think team golf is the most wonderful thing in the world. And you know, they came out and said team golf doesn't work, and it's only three rounds. You can't define a champion in three rounds. I said, college golf is a team sport. It's been playing three rounds for history.
So interesting amateur golf, you know.
And so so where is it going to go? I really don't know. I think there is going to be an agreement between the two. But is it still a great product or have they just survived and their membership who they work for? Taking opportunities from these guys, you know, for thirty forty years on Wednesday for free players playing pro ams four or five hours of their day every day right before they go compete, Jack Nicholas, Arnold Palmer, Tiger,
Phil Davis. They've been planning pro ams, building the brand of the PGA Tour for them, and it's to turn around and go like, well we messed up. We're for profit. I mean, there have been individuals that have saved PGA Tour events with their own money. I won't go into it, but they have so here they are. They put their own money to save this tournament for this community. So it gives so much back to the community and charitable dollars.
I'm going to save it myself. And they've turned around now and tell these people, hey, if you want tousa have an event, you're going to have to pay us five hundred thousand. You don't have to pay us a million plus two percent of your gate, so that we're going to make money. And I'm like, I look at it and go like they take long term sponsors and say, look, if you don't give us more money, you can't play. I mean long term sponsors. I mean there's something about people.
They've lost sponsors like Honda, Wells Fargo. So again, everything they've done, if it's the right thing, then it's going to be something that's ten years from now will go, well, look what they did, it was right. But I don't see how taken your membership that have given so much to build your brand and taking opportunity away from them is going to work.
I'm curious of the stable of players that you represent, professional golfers, how many of them have either considered or have gone over to.
Live I actually had no players considered going.
Even consider it. You didn't have any DISCUSSI with any of them.
Oh, I asked them all, No, Oh, tell me, like, how where do you fit in?
And that I'm sure that you're the person there go I need to think about this. They're offering me a lot of money and the boy I'm really thinking about it. They would come to you for that conversation. I would think in their spouse, but you know, as their business partner, because they're the CEO of their company, right and you're the like CEO company. How do you present this or hold them back or where do you get involved in fast?
Obviously they they you know, they made request for players I represented to talk to them, okay, and and I don't. I didn't say, well, how much do you have? I said, I'm not negotiating until I know he wants to do it. I don't do that. I'm not gonna. I don't want to, so I would I went to the players, and you know, my last player went, now, I'm good, I'm fine. Just wasn't any reasoning. They liked the PGA tour, they didn't care about the I play for enough money, I'm fine
now on the context. So when the LID was kicking off, they were a little short of players. They and I had a kid named Mandy Ogletree who had won the US Amateur in twenty nineteen. He caught the COVID year Masters, so he didn't get to play in the April Masters, but guess who he got to play with Tiger Woods. So he waited as an amateur till November so he could play with Tiger Woods and the Masters. He was
low amateur, which was wonderful. Turns pro. The next week plays in Mexico, which is the last event of the year on tour. He got to play one event played well, we go through Christmas, he plays, He's starting to play shows up in LA with a sponsor. Rexemption tears his labor as a five something. Tear in his labor. We fly him and me home to Andrews and Birmingham surgery out six months. Okay, it's pretty tough on kid. So as he's rehabbing and coming out, this kid's really good.
He I mean, these kids are not rich people, right, and he got an opportunity. I reached out and we got an opportunity to get him to the first live event in London, one event in exchange for Asian Tour status because he didn't have anywhere to play. And he goes, I'm in last place was one hundred and twenty five thousand. That will go a long way to helping him get back on his career. He plays he's rehabbing, didn't play great,
finished close to laughs. People, ah blah blah blah. The tour banding, what is he I'm a member of the tour. Never let him go to Q school again, never let him do anything, blocked him from creating a living for playing one event. Okay, I have a couple of retired general friends, so I before Andy made a decision to do this, I got in touch with one of them because I knew they ties to Saudi Arabia and I wanted to know I'm okay with this. This is going to come back and get me and that one of
them said said, we're married to Saudi Arabia. We're not just allies. And I called Andy and said, hey, the research I have the best I can tell you. You're good to go do this. Well he was going anyhow, he said I don't care. And then people, this is great Andy, because they the tour put him on the list of banned players like he was one of theirs. He lost deals. Now I'm going to share something. When liv found out about that, they gave Andy money to put live on his shirt so he'd have more money
to go play golf, and he went to Asia. He won three times. He won the Order of Merit, which got him a spot on Live. He earned his way on and we signed a team deal and he plays for Phil meckleson team the High Flyers. And if you call him and you want to ask how bad it is, you know what he gets to do every day. He gets to hang out with Phil Mickerlson, one of the best players ever played, helping him with his swing, helping him with his game, and Kim Trengalli and Brendan Steel
his teammates. They hang out to go, they work with each other, and he's getting better just because of having these peers all of a sudden. So it's been the most wonderful opportunities. If you want to grow the game, you took a kid that I mean there was pretty a low point in his life and through his play. He played in the British Open last year, he played in the PGA last year. So for Live, do you say they didn't do anything good? Well they that kid
right there that changed his life. So but yeah, I didn't have a player get signed a check to go. I don't know why. I mean, I'm you know, in our business it's cyclical. I used to have. I'd have two of the players in the top ten, and that makes me really good. I'm a really important guy. I don't have top ten. Now I'm dumb. Now I'm not good at what I do. And now whoever whatever agent's got a great player and now they're this s mart one. So and that's the way that works. It's okay. It's
called position power, not personal power. So I didn't really have a lot of guys that they were really wanting, but I did have a couple, and they just said, like I said, my guys were like, man, I'm playing for a lot of money.
I don't care.
I'm having a ball. They great family life. They I mean, they weren't saying, please, I need more money. I mean, you got guys making two or three million a year, working twenty five weeks a year. I mean, it's dang good fun and they're playing golf. So how does it work? I mean, obviously, what Live did was contact agents like me, every one of them. They got Brooks's agent or whoever, said here's an offer, and so I just went back. I didn't want to have an offer, negotiate and then
go see the player. I just thought that wasn't fair to live and so I just went and said, if they don't have the interest, I call him, Hey, thank you, but no thanks. And what is it?
What is it that keeps players your players going, Yeah, I'm good, I don't need I'm fine staying with the PGA.
I am Look, I imagine. I mean a lot of my players are from the Southeast and maybe a little different psychological but the they're making a lot of money and they're like, they were happy, the tour is fun, it's a great place. They were not unhappy.
They and you can't win majors unless you're playing on the PGA Tour.
Well, and see, yeah is that relevant. Yeah, somewhat relevant, but not totally. I mean, I mean you can play, you can earn your way into the British Opening and the US Open. Anybody can qualify for most of the I mean Lucas Glover when the US opened in two thousand and nine, he had to qualify on a Monday. He didn't get in because of the PGA Tour. He
went qualified and wonted himself. And again that's the the whole thing is that you know, legacies are created by the majors, financial security, is created by wherever you play. And I think that my guys just the lifestyle they enjoy it their home. Traveling in America is much different
than having to go to Singapore, to Hong Kong, to Malaysia, whatever. Right, So, but if you can argue about a person that would take money for a sport that he has got made himself to the point to demand the dollars, and then they do it, and they say, well, they're not going to be as good. I mean, they did everything you could to make it's just it's horse. It's I mean, Aaron Judd dropped the foul ball. I don't know how
much he makes, but he makes a lot. You still make mistakes even though you get paid a lot of money. So now they're saying these guys are not as good because they're not playing against competition. It was just they were throwing everything they had out of the kitchen sink at this thing, trying to make it not be anything. And then they when none of that were, they go, Okay, we'll partner with you. I mean, it's ridiculous. Never seen that.
Wow, this could possibly be the longest episode I've ever done, But I've never been so captivated. Yea, I have, but I mean I am so captivated by where you've been, what you've seen, what you've done, and I hope that I can call you back and bring you back.
On the show because anytime it.
Is absolutely fascinating.
Man, jord It.
Thanks for letting me talk well, thank you for joining us, and the best of luck, and we'll keep our eyes open and if something weird happens, I'm calling you.
Some weird stuff's going to happen. I'll guarantee you in the next few months. Thanks for letting come on.
I would love to get your feedback on this episode, as he was about as controversial and thought provoking as any guest I've ever had. Do you agree with his thoughts on what's happening on the tour? Did he influence any of your feelings towards Live. I know a lot of people who are like I won't even look at a Bryson just Shamba video because he's on Live. You know,
let's let's play nice, okay. And now he's well aware that he said some things that may not make people at the PGA tour headquarters happy, and during one of our commercial breaks, he said this to me.
Well, no, I am out of him watches this because he'll be well, he won't call me immediately if you want to send it. He's not happy with me right now.
Oh boy, please share your thoughts with me and keep an eye open at golf Smarter on social media for many clips from this episode, and they'll be video clips. So after our recording, we spoke for another hour and a half. It was kind of like living in a ted talk. Hopefully he will be back often. Interestingly, this Friday on Golf Smarter Mullak, we're going to feature the first of two twenty thirteen at conversations with one of the few PGA Tour players ever featured on our podcast,
Matt every What was the last time you heard from him? Right? I mean he was a highly decorated college player and showed tons of promise on the tour, But now where is he? I want to thank this week's Golf Smarter Ambassador, ge or Our Daleman's from Bowie, Maryland, who received all three gifts for introducing today's episode. There's currently a way for you to get all our gifts at once, just by writing an honest review where you listen to golf Smarter and sending me what you wrote and where you
posted it. I've read a couple of new reviews on Apple Podcasts this week which were incredibly kind. Thank you, but I don't know who wrote them. So please if you did, or if you're going to email me and let me know what you said so that I can track you down and then send you your thank you gifts, or if you'd like, you can still be a Golf Smarter ambassador by introducing an upcoming episode and we'll get a gift to you there too. Okay, I am ready
to invite you to our next Golf Smarter adventure. I'm gonna bring Tara and Allen from TMI Golf on soon for a short episode to discuss all the details. But the web page is now available to reserve your spot, which is limited. Here's some details. We're gonna do this on March twenty sixth through the thirtieth. That's a long weekend starting on Wednesday going through Sunday with three rounds of golf on the Robert Trent Jones Trail near Birmingham, Alabama.
We'll play golf on Thursday at Oxmore Valley Ridge Course Friday at the ross Bridge Golf Course and Saturday's round will be at Oxmore Valley's Valley Course. Again. Space is limited, but you can reserve your spot now at tmi goolf dot com. Come slash golf smarter. There's so much to share about this, and I'll continue to tell you about the details as we get closer. But I'd love to play with you as we get our first taste of their legendary Robert Trent Jones Trail again March twenty six
through the thirtieth, twenty twenty five. Check your calendar right now. You should be available and you'll definitely want to join us. We're not going overseas. We're going to keep it as simple as we can, but we're going to play the Robert Trent Jones Trail. I've been wanting to do this for years. Get all the details at tmigolf dot com, slash golf Smarter, and I'll leave that link in today's
show notes. If you have any questions, comments, you'd like to be on a future episode with where you're from, where you play in the episode number, or maybe you've submitted a review on your favorite golf podcast platform, or have a suggestion for an upcoming episode. Please write to Golf Smarter Podcast at gmail dot com or click on the Heyfread button when you visit golfsmarter dot com