Hi.
My name is Daniel from the Netherlands and I play it over some golf club. Welcome to Gulf Smarter.
My name is Bob Fairchild and I'm from sanen Samo, California. My favorite golf course is Royal County down in Northern Ireland. This is Golf Smarter number Oney ten.
We're just trying to gather data on uneven lives and I'm very guilty of this. I always thought that if the ball is above your feet, the person is going to hit it to the low side. Uphill lie is going to hit it higher and shorter, and a downhill lie is going to hit it lower. Well, you just give people a chance to hit these shots. We don't really necessarily see it. The results aren't as simple as we think. Of the people we had today, probably twenty five percent of them hit it higher on an uphill
lie than they do off the level line. So they're on an uphill lie counter to it it but depends on their swing. And we had some people and we've seen this so far and gathering the stata that if the ball is below their feet, they actually hit it straighter and their clipheads feet increases. But what are they thinking they're thinking that it's going to go to the right because that's what people like me have told them.
And then they hit five shots and they're all going dead straight, but they're aiming left, so they're thinking they're doing something wrong in their technique. But maybe depending on your golf spring, the ball below your feet, you'll hit it pretty straight so you don't have name left.
Instinct putting the revolutionary science based method at looking where you put with Eric Albinfels.
This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ.
Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf Smarter podcast.
Eric, thank you that nice to be here.
It's great to have you back again. I just for reference points, I want to say that you were on episodes forty seven and forty eight. We did two weeks in a row talking about Pinehurst in November of two thousand and six. Then you came back after Instinct Putting came out the book Instinct Putting, which we're going to talk a lot about today. That was episode one thirty
eight in August of two thousand and eight. August fifth we're doing in August fifth episode this week this year too, and then you were on in twenty sixteen episode five hundred and forty more talk about instinct putting and as I progress in my journey of golf, and I keep going back to that book and now it really is starting to make sense to me instinct putting. But let's start talking first about your latest book, called Evidence Based Golf.
It's it's not storytelling. It's a science based book, right, and it's it's it's I don't know if dry is the right word, but it's science. And so you have to be able to you have to be prepared to when you get into the book that that's where you're going. Don't expect cute stories about somebody hitting a golf ball.
No, it's pretty straightforward you it's a lot of it's a summary of our research, for sure.
Yeah, so let's talk about that and your research. You had a partner on both of these books. What was the what prompted you to say we need to talk about the evidence.
Well, that's a good question, I think for us. The
you know, Bob Christina, who's my research partner. We started probably in nineteen ninety I actually reached out to him via a friend of ours, a mutual friend, girl named Carol Man, and I was looking for insight into how to do a research study for the World Scientific Congress of Golf which was held in Saint Andrew's University, and I wanted to do a summary of our golf school students and just needed his advice on how to present that and how to gather the data and do a summary.
So anyway, we started this conversation and we started doing research together with the thought of let's make it evidence based. It's not anecdotal. Let's make sure it's research that can stand up where we can stand up in front of an academic environment and people will appreciate the steps we went through, the protocols we follow, and that's really when
we started doing all this stuff. And the book was just a natural transition where we thought we need to we need to publish this and summarize some of our at least to us the more important studies.
Why did you need to be a scholastic, you said, you know, for scholastic presentation.
Well, just more academic. You know, if you go to a World Congress of Golf where it's where you would bring together researchers in different environments where they look at human performance, maybe the biomechanics of a golf swing. They do presentations on agronomy, equipment, things like that. So it's the idea is that I didn't want to stand up in front of an audience of researchers and not be able to present the material the right way and not
have done the research the right way. So I guess when I'm saying that more, it's certainly a more academic environment where you're talking and presenting in front of researchers who do research on human performance and other sports and they so it's kind of a gathering of that type of a group. That's hell pretty much every four years at St. Andrews. It's off and on.
Yeah, and what we haven't established is what you do. Let's say, let's put this in perspective here.
Well, my title here, I guess I have to kind of think of what I do. I do a little bit of different stuff, but I'm the director of instruction as well as the Golf Academy at Pinehurst and I've been here about forty years and so my my major job is to teach in golf schools and run the golf schools here at the facility. I do some individual lessons as well, but not nearly as much individual lessons
as golf schools. And the flexibility I have is to do things like the research, and that's part of my job as well, is to do research projects that could propel our information. We're giving our students a little bit more forward and maybe try to be less anecdotal instructors and more instructors that are based on research. And again back to the evidence based instruction.
And you're a PGA Master professional correct, Yeah, okay, so that means you instruct instructors.
Yeah, fair amount, yeah, fair amount, not a ton with our schedules here, I do a fair amount for the PGA have rather have done a fair amount over the years as an adjunct faculty member. But you know, I certainly trained the folks I work with here and then the professional staff here. But yeah, I do lit that as well. Yeah.
Yeah, So that's why you would need to get in front of a large group to present the science based Yeah okay, all right, now you talk about empirical versus non empirical evidence in the book, Why don't you explain those.
Well, I guess from my perspective, the terms are just that you're trying to draw data that you're trying to You're trying to utilize research and such that will make the data hold that would that would hold up under scrutiny. I guess is in my mind how we think of it.
At least I think of it. A fair amount of instruction to me seems to be anecdotal, you know where, and it's it's not it's not a criticism of teachers, but I think as teachers, you naturally rely on what works for you and the the sometimes the thought is it's going to work for everybody. And so I think our goal with the research we've done is trying to cut through some of the some of the stuff that happens that is successful for one teacher and not necessarily
applicable to other students. And I guess I'm thinking in terms of let's say, I'm thinking of like a full swing swing queue. Let's say somebody swings out to end in a down swing, which is a pretty common error. Well, one form of a swing queue would be to swing, you know, kind of do some sort of internal queue where you drop your right arm into your side or try to have your right oble touch your side in the down swing to change the path of the club.
And then another strategy could be to think more in terms of the club hit. So those two types of approaches are very good cues. I mean, they certainly work. I mean you've certainly heard to you know, drop your right oble in your side to swing out to the right, you know, so I think we all have heard that. But there are two distinctly different approaches. One is external QUE where you're thinking about the club head, and the internal Q is where you're thinking about the body. And
so there are two different strategies. And the side of stuff that we like to do is we like to pit those two against each other to see which ones could be more effective in the down swing or making the swing change. So the idea is that you have research that would support one way could be better than another way, or at least giving people the option to know there's two ways to work on a downswings. So kind of a long story, but that's kind of what
we enjoy doing. It's helpful for our teaching too, and we're looking at a student that's swinging out in it's nice to have two different approaches to fixing it versus always relying on the one. And that's kind of where we feel like we're helping our students have a different way to approach the same thing. Hopefully that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And and I don't worry about long answers. We like long answers here, take your.
Time that you get everything a little bit.
But okay, no, no, no, not at all, not at all. But I'm curious now, this is directed for this information, this content, this science is based and directed at golf instructors, not the average golfer.
Correct, well, what is Yeah, we're our goal with the research. I mean, this is kind of back to the days that Bob, Christina and I really set out to do this research together. Our thought was that if we could do research that would be beneficial to the students at Pinehurst. So we could take two different swing ques and test one or maybe a training aid. We could test a training aid and see which one's more efficient, and that
could be beneficial to our students. But we also wanted to do research that could be helpful for a golf instructor to maybe see it in a different way and maybe be able to think about it in a different way and that could be beneficial to the instructor, which would then be beneficial to the students. So beneficial to our students, beneficial to the instructors out there, and then also to something that we could present that could be permeated out to the world of golf, like via a
golf magazine. So back in two thousand, I guess it was we did. We've started really doing a series of articles for Golf magazine and that have continued where we just you know, again, back in that day, we worked with Lauren Anderson and we might just do two or
three studies on the best way to practice lag putting. Actually, that's where the Instinct Putting book came from because we did a study for Lauren Anderson and we had people practice looking at the hole while they were working on their distance control, and that kind of shifted into that that's that type of study.
So with Evidence Based Golf the book. Again, would you if one of your students, you know, a new golfer versus a very serious golfer, but came to you and said, oh, I saw that you have this book Evidence Based Golf. You know, I'm just learning to play. Is this something I should be reading or should I just listen to my teacher and not get myself caught up in this. You know, I'm new to the game. I play a couple of times a year, and.
Sure, well, I think that's that's interesting. I think for some people the having that type of information is important, and they they they have an appreciation for maybe the simplicity of a study where we just look at how high you should tee your driver and understanding that how the study took place, the findings, the summary of the findings.
I mean, it's pretty simple. But at the same time, maybe that person it would would kind of interest them in that regard just that reading it, and it would be interesting in it. I'd say probably for a beginner golfer, it wouldn't really be something that would be a necessity I would I would strongly suggest they read more material on the ball flight laws and have a better understanding
what makes the ball do what it does. I think one of the questions I've always gotten from folks over the years, still, do you know if you're going to if you're going to give somebody a book to read, what book would you give them to read? I've always told people go read the quick here's for the weekend golfer.
Whether you're a new teacher or you're a new golfer, having a good sense of ball flight and the being able to look at ball flight and diagnose what's going on in your swing or the student swing is not a bad idea. So that's a I mean, that book's been around forever, probably nineteen seventy three, but it was John Jacobs looking at ball flight, how you know, what
makes the ball do what it's doing. The new material out there that's even more in depth because the track man and some of the technology we have, I mean, it's even better. So having a good sense of ball flight and what makes the ball do what it is do what it does rather, I would be suggesting to any newer golfer, and I'd also suggest that to instructors too, because there seems to be some misconceptions out there what's really going on.
Yeah, I can definitely see instructors like reading this saying, ah, got it, Okay, I understand that. But then I also see you know, because the audience on this show runs the gamut from beginning. You know, new golfers too, and I've had a lot of instructors say that they use the show as research, which is really awesome. But the beginning golfer, it's like, I'm I don't know what what am I supposed to do with this, you know, But I can see a teacher saying, absolutely it makes to make sense.
Yeah, I think Yeah, for a beginner golfer, I'm not too sure. I mean, I certainly have people say that they've enjoyed it, but I think it's more there, you know, they're not really they I guess probably I haven't met a couple of people that were newer to the game and read it, but I think they had probably read any type of book like that and enjoyed just kind of how their brain thinks and how they like that
side of things. So maybe more of it just their background. Yeah, But as far as the beginner golfer, I'm not too sure. I mean, certainly the studies where we talk about those two types of cues, internal and external would be interesting, but I'm not even too sure a beginner could really apply that to their own game as much as an instructor could to their teaching.
Yeah, we've had a lot of scientists on and mental coaches talking about internal versus external targets and that how if you're focusing on your mechanics while you're hitting a ball, or while you're making your swing, let's not even talk about hitting a ball when you're making your swing. If you're thinking about your mechanics, chances are it's not going to go well.
It's really hard, yeah for sure, yea. And yet you know what, when we're kind of looking at that and not you mentioned earlier the rabbit hole, you can kind of go down the rabbit hole some of the stuff. But I think what's interesting from my perspective is that if you talk to the amateur golfer, you know, we have them fill out a questionnaire to start before they start the school, and it's overwhelming the amount of internal swing cues they have. When they walk in the door.
You ask them what they're working on, and they'll give you a probably the average befour or five things they're working on in their swing when they're hitting golf ball, which is of course that's challenging, but they all tend
to be internal in nature. So I turned my shoulders, I shift my weight, I drop my right over to my side, whatever it is, and they don't really think a lot about what the club's doing, and their awareness of what the club's doing is really challenging for them because they think, again, they pick up a book and it's probably going to be geared towards internal cues. They're going to read a blog and it's going to be probably internal cues. They're going to hear tour players talking
about what they're working on. They're probably going to be some internal cues, and it's challenging for them. So I think for the student, at least, my experience has been as if they recognize that there's two types of swing queues and that they can if they just give it a thought, they can figure out an external swing queue where they think about the club that could replace the internal queue, and they're going to probably be a little bit better off with that if they just took the
time do that. But they kind of default into left arm, straight shoulder turning, whatever.
You do right, and there's a myriad of things that they're thinking about. Oh, all the way across and you were saying you started doing this research back at the let's call it the turn of the century. It seems like I know it's when you say that, folks our age, we always think of going eighteen hundred to nineteen hundred, but that's not where we are. But the technology from when you started to today is so radically different. How
has it impacted the results of your studies? And if you had to redoce.
Some you know, I think we were always pretty lucky with any type of study that we were doing. We always had outcome. It was always based on well, not of them, but outcome is probably the majority of the studies.
So if we didn't have the technology where we could measure it with a track manner back in two thousand, the Titleist launch model they had, if we couldn't utilize that, we could always measure it just the old fashion way, which would be hit a bunch of golf balls on a flat surface and measure how far they are offline,
you know, look at the dispersion rate that way. So it's we've always been able to do that, but the technology makes it a lot easier, and certainly we can get more into some of the finer, the secondary measures
that we'd be looking at. But I remember years ago we did a study on the length of a driver out on the first hole of number two, which is at the time was relatively flat wall to wall grass and so there wasn't any of the waste areas and they mowed the area down slightly for us, and we just had people hit drivers off the first tee and they hit drivers that were one inch over standard length
standard length and one inch under standard length. And of course everybody liked the longer shafted driver, but they were more accurate with the shorter shafted driver, which was kind of the name of the game.
Yeah, the longer one, you're getting more distance.
Yeah, on the one out of hit a little bit further. The other nine were its good and then the shorter shafted driver they hit a lot straighter. And at the end of the day the average was greater. But they always remember that one or two drivers that went with the longer clubs. But that's everybody knows that. But we did the old fashioned way. We had a rope down the middle of the fairway and we measured the dispersion off the center line of the fairway and we did
it that way. So nowadays that'd be a lot easier with TrackMan, how.
High tech of you.
Yeah, we didn't even use We didn't even we didn't even use later range finders. We just had a we had one of those longs yards yards or the measuring tools that would run for fifty feet, so we just run back and forth with that. So, yeah, we we did it old school for a while, but the technology has really changed it because we can look at so
many different things. You know, right now we're looking at we're just trying to gather data on uneven lives and at least and I'm I'm very guilty of this, but I always thought that if the ball is above your feet, the person is going to hit it to the low side. So the balls above my feet, it's going to go to the low side. If the ball is below my feet, it's going to go to the low side of the right side. Uphill lie is going to hit it higher and shorter, and a downhill lie is going to hit
it lower. Well, if you just give people a chance to hit these shots, we don't really necessarily see it's that easily defined, or the results aren't as simple as we think. We were running some people through the uneven lies today and we've had of the people we had today, probably twenty five percent of them hit it higher on an uphill lie than they do off the level lie, so they're on an uphill lie. I could see that counterintuitive,
but depends on their swing. And we had some people and we've seen this so far and gathering the data that if the balls below their feet, they actually hit it straighter and their cliphead speed increases. But what are they Yeah, but what are they thinking. They're thinking that it's going to go to the right because that's what people like me have told them. And then they hit five shots and they're all going dead straight, but they're
aiming left. So they're thinking they're doing something wrong with their technique. But maybe, depending on your golf swing, the ball below your feet, you'll hit it pretty straight, so you don't have to name left. So that's you know, that's where track man can be so helpful. Some of the other technology can be so helpful because you can really measure this stuff and get a really good sense of what the ball is doing. We're watching it live.
Without that technology, it's hard to kind of gauge that, Okay, that was two more degrees left. It's hard to do there, but the technology allows us to do that. So kind of a long answer, but the technology has been a huge change and helpful for us.
It's very funny that you talk about the scientific process is you know, you got to look at the process versus the outcome. But when we're teaching golf or when we're telling people about golf, it's all it's like, just think about the process, don't worry about the outcome. And on the scientific one, you're thinking about the outcome the process, right, But golfers, yeah, stop thinking about the outcome.
Yeah for sure, Yeah, that's true. I mean, if you're gonna go hit a golf ball over water, don't be worrying about the water. Think about the process that will help you hit it over the water. For sure. The outcome will wear you out, but we'll make it harder, for sure.
We'll wear you out.
Absolutely well, you know the outcome. You can get sideways on stuff. But the yeah, I mean it is. It is interesting. We did a study a year ago, a couple of years ago, rather I guess now. And so there's two ways to aim. If you know, if you're out on the golf course, do you use an intermediate target? Yes, okay, and then.
There's the shot yeah yeah, for me, every shot.
You like that it works for you. So we did a study where we had people come in and they they did multiple ways of aiming. One way was using the intermediate target and they would hit shots. So we just measured the outcome. And then there's another way obviously, or you aim at the target of the distance. We phrase that, or we think of it as term as distal target aiming, So you're aiming at a pan or a middle of fairway, whatever it is. So you've got
two distinct ways. And we had people just hit shots and we just measured the outcome. You know, aim it up and hit it and let's see what happens. And we found that as groups, one way was not really more effective than the other. Now I had cameras mounted on the ceiling at the same time and looking at the club fase, and I would say that the intermediate target people seem to be aiming a degree or two more square to that to the target line than if
they didn't have the intermediate target. So but again we didn't see anything significant in the outcome. So at the end of the day, figure out which one's best for you, either intermediate or the distal target. But again as a
as a golfer. Maybe that would be helpful for you to now say, Okay, I'm going to go practice and I'm going to hit twenty shots with my six iron with one strategy than twenty shots with my six arm the other way, and see which one I perform better with kind of look at the dispersion, or maybe go out on the golf course and play around a golf with one way or the other. And so you know, that's kind of where I guess I'm kind of circling back to. That's kind of what we try to do
here research wise. That just makes it a little bit more research driven than just anecdotal, where my generation would have been told, you know, use the intermediate target no matter what, it's the only way to do it, which again, maybe that's not always the case for everybody.
Right right, And let's define intermediate target for those who are now their ears are perked like, wait a minute, is that something that's a few inches in front of the ball or is that the midpoint of where my distal target is?
Well, where would you define We defined it as two feet in front of the golf ball. Okay, so now the idea of it being that close to the golf ball was most people can look at the club face and perfectly aim the club at that intermediate target without having to move their head. And so that was the idea of just making it simpler that way. And we did meet some people that used intermediate targets and they were, you know, eighty yards away, so maybe God.
Keep my golf. It varies from person to.
Person, but when we tested it, we did two feet just to streamline it.
Okay, well, that is the perfect opportunity to pivot when you talk about looking at it, you know, while you're hitting it or not. Let's move on to instinct putting. Sure, I've become pretty obsessed with it lately. I've been reading the book and finding that I really like it good a lot. And when I talk to people about it, they're like, that is the most radical thing, the most
heretical thing. Yeah, heretical concept that I've ever heard. And then, you know, you bring up the obvious conversation of when you're shooting a basket, are you looking at the ball? No, when you're when you're hitting a baseball, you know, and they're like, oh, yeah, hitting a baseball, No, no, you yeah, you're you're looking at the ball, but you're not looking
at the bat like with tennis. And what I've really been very pleased with is what I'm doing shorter putts, especially because that's the bugaboo for me is you know, you you've got to make those four and five footers, six footers, eight footers. When I'm looking at the hole versus looking at the ball, I don't think about or I don't get caught up in the mechanics of the
swing like I do. When I'm looking at the ball and watching the buttterhead move around, I'm like, oh, no, no, no, you know, and then the distrust, the doubt just flares up like fireworks versus when I'm looking at the hole.
Ye. No, I agree. I think most of the time, when I'm somebody that is doing the idea of looking at the whole, it really just frees them up a little bit and makes the whole motion a little bit more athletic. And even though there could be flawed in their stroke, if they just make it a little bit more athletic, it tends to be a little bit more consistent. And if it's a little bit more consistent, there's a
little bit more predictability to it. And it's one of those things where just it can be very helpful for them. And and I agree, I think a lot a lot of golfers will are looking at the putter on a two footer. They're looking at the putter going back and forth and saying, oh, I should I arcutter straight back straight through as the face open, and really just it's very challenging to make that putt when you're kind of
preoccupied looking at all this other stuff. So for sure, yeah, I agree, And it was very It was a big surprise to me when we did the study, I'll be
honest with that. When I we did all the measurements, we had the groups do their routines, and then when I went to put in a format for my research partner to throw it in the system and analyze it, I really thought I had typed, I had done the formula wrong because it was so it's so different, you know, the results were so much surprising towards looking at the hole. I really thought I must have done this all wrong
because there that can't be that big a deal. And I had went through it again and it was right on. It was just.
Please expand on those results, and so we get a sense of.
Sure, yeah, well we just you know, we had people, we had people doing different distances, randomizing their practice session, doing different distances, and at the end of the day, when we measured old school way, how far was the ball away from the cup from the center of the cup, you know, with a measuring tool, it was a lot closer when they practiced looking at the hole. And again that was just surprising that it would be that big
a difference, and it really was very significant. And but again we then you think about it, and then you talk to people, and it's to your point, well, basketball player are not going to look at the basketball when he's trying to shoot a shoot a free throw. And so it talked to a couple of researchers and they said, well, sure, it makes a lot of sense that they would have a better sense of the distance because they're looking at the cup and they're now equating energy and speed of
the stroke to get there. And I find it extremely effective because a lot of people if you watch them putt, if you just go out on a golf course with people and watch them put and watch their routine, they will very often aim up at the putt, at aim up at the pen like they want to and then do two or three strokes off to the side without ever looking at the at the distance they're trying to hit it. So by the time they stand over the golf ball, they have no sense of the distance, and
so they're distancing very good. We'll just have them, if anything, just ha them do the rehearsal strokes looking at the hole. We're looking at the distance they want it to go. It's just the simple fact of that will help them, or the step of that will help them hit at the right distance. And a lot of people do a lot better looking at the hole the whole time. And you're kind of doing it from all different distances, not just a set, not just the eight footers or something like that.
Yeah, no, No, I'm trying to get comfortable with it. And like the closer I get to the hole, then I'm not just looking the hole. I'm picking a spot like you know it, if I'm going uphill, I'm looking at the back edge of the cup right right behind the pin. Or I also do you know, when I'm when I'm putting, I look at the hole as a clock and I'm standing at six o'clock and it's like, where's the ball? Where do I feel the ball is
going to break and go into the hole. It is going to go in four o'clock, is going to go into seven o'clock. Right, So I'm looking at that specific spot when I'm looking at the hole. And trust is such a big part of this. You know, you've got
to remove the doubt. You've got to And that's like I remember shooting free throws all the time is just feeling it, feeling it, and now with the putter and just being able to hit that spot, my my distance control is so much better my and now you know, not worrying about oh did I get it over that spot eight inches in front of the you know, eight in front of the ball. Oh no, I'm you know, it's just focus on something else. But you really have to trust this. It's not something you just go out
and do. No because you've heard a podcast.
Yeah, no, I agree, but I think if you were to In fact, I did this on the golf course just the other day with some folks that were doing on course in our golf school, and they're they're just
really struggling with distance control. They self admittedly said they always struggle with that so we just went out on the I guess we were on the second green of course, number one, just doing some lag putting, and I had them try just three putts where they looked at the hole or looked where they needed to put the ball to compensate with the break, and they immediately did better. But again it was just it wasn't It didn't change
their strokes. It just simply gave them a better sense of how hard they need to hit it to make you go the right distance. It's a it was a sixty five foot putt. They're not going to make it. All they need to do is just get it close enough to tap it in. They're trying to read the break, they're trying to figure out what to do with their stroke, should I arc it or go straight back straight through? You know, they're they're deubbing and all this stuff. Where
it's point, it really just becomes a distance. But make it go sixty five feet, And I think if anything simplifies it for people when you do that out on the golf course, it simplifies it. And again kind of the if you don't necessarily do that while you're putting, if you just did the rehearsal strokes with the same strategy. You're looking at of okay, how you know where's the ball going to enter the cup? Is it going to
be nine o'clock or six o'clock or four o'clock? And then from there, how hard am I trying to hit it? Just the rehearsal strokes, if they're more in line with that, are going to be be effective for you much better. And the amount of people that just basically look at the ball where they're doing the rehearsal strokes amazes me. They're never looking at the distance they want it to go.
Taking the rehearsal strokes, and of course we're all like taking the rehearsal strokes. You look over at the hole, you look down at the ball, you look at your putter head, and you're taking your rehearsal strokes, trying to remember how far right, Oh yeah, I've got it locked in exactly how far it is, you know, and you kind of lose sight of the distance that you're doing when you're looking at the putter ahead.
Oh yeah, I agree, I did. And they're say, and I'm not too sure there's gonna be people out there that swearing I am with all this stuff. But if you have a I know that in our when you're making a swing change with somebody. I tell people this because it's based on motor learning that I've read and been told by accountless people. But if you do a rehearsal swing of what you want to do and you're
changing your technique. So let's say you're working on not swinging out, then you want to swing from end out classic thing, you do the rehearsal swing, You step up to the ball and you give it a hit, and you've got about a five or six maybe seven second window. Arguments back and forth that you have to hit the ball within that timeframe before you start losing the field. So somebody standing over the they've looked at the pin, and
I think it carries over to this as well. If they look at a sixty five foot putt and then they start looking at the ground and looking at their putter and the ball and looking at their putter and kind of thinking about their technique, most likely they've probably lost the sense of how hard they're going to hit it to make you go the sixty five feet because they're getting distracted by other all this other stuff and
so I think it would hold up. Just that, do the couple practice strokes, looking at how far you want it to go left to the if his brake's left right, look past the hole to the left to give yourself plenty of room for the break, and do a couple of strokes and put it, and you're probably going to be better off than not doing it that way. But certainly the rehearsal swings and that hitting the ball right afterwards is very helpful and making any type of swing change. For sure.
We had Tim Tucker on the show a while ago in the eight hundreds, was that in twenty twenty three? Do you know Tim?
I know the name for sure.
Yeah, yeah, So he is a putting guru, but also he's a PGA tour caddie. And the week after he was on the show, he started carrying the bag for Kit Kitty Yama and Kit one that week. The thing that stood out to me in that conversation that kind of blew my mind was his emphasis of the point that we take a GPS out on the golf course all the time, we take a rangefinder and we're like, okay, I'm one hundred and thirty yards from the hole, I'm eighty eight yards from the hole, I'm one hundred and
seventy five yard. You know, we're looking at these distance to determine which club to take and how you want to approach that swing. But when we get on the green, we just stand there and look at the ball and the hole and he says, which, I have implemented my game and it's been quite it works well. From my head, step it off. Realize what your distance is, not just by look, but tell yourself, Okay, I've done an eighteen
foot put before. Okay I've done a thirty foot putt before, or seven foot whatever it is, so you get a feel for the feel.
Sure right, oh absolutely.
And that to me, I mean, do you advocate of stepping it off or you guys just like take the practice, rehearsal strokes and move forward.
You know, it depends on the skill set of the golfer. With the vast majority of people I meet, pacing it off that linear distance, knowing how far it is is a really good stepping stone to getting good distance control on their putting. If they know it's sixty five feet, they at least if they practice a sixty footer, they can easily add five more feet to it, just because they can recollect what sixty feet felt like and when they're making trying to do that putt that distance. So absolutely,
Now there's some players. In fact, I was watching somebody putt today and they have really good touch. No matter what any scenario I put them in. Really they had a good sense of how hard to hit it to make it go that distance, and then they just had to take a little off or add a little bit because it was uphill or downhill or against screen or whatever. But they're just instinctively really good at that. So I
would say, you know, that person doesn't have to. But most of the people, if you say pay them off, they're kind of surprised with I think they don't really have a good sense of you know, how far is twenty five feet? You know, sometimes people are looking at a twenty five foot and they're you know, if you ask them how far it is, they'll say twelve feet. It's like, well not quite, So it's just kind of funny. Their awareness of it is just not so good. So anyway, yeah,
definitely past it off. And in what we do quite often in the schools, we'll set up a station where almost like a ladder drill. In fact, we recreate the study and instinct putting that started that where we have them putt from different distances. We randomize it so there might be a five ten, fifteen twenty twenty five thirty foot putt. They bounce around between the different distances trying to make it go that to the cup, and you
don't do it in like five ten, fifteen twenty. Bounce it around a little bit, and then they start getting to where they can have they have a good sense of a thirty foot putt is this much energy? So then you just turn and say, okay, now make it go thirty feet and make you go twenty feet. They're already start starting to get a sense of it, or like a template maybe of how hard to hit it to make it go the right distance. And it's but it's the beginning part of it, knowing if they pace
it off, it's it's a thirty foot putt. Well, I know how hard to hit it. Now at least I can get I'm closer to knowing how hard to hit it for sure. That's a great way to do it.
I've talked to instructors and brought up the concept of instinct putting, of looking at the hole while you're putting, and a lot of them are like, well, you know, that's that's really an interesting method, but it's probably better for when you're practicing, not on the course, and you're even saying what we should be doing is when we take our rehearsal swings on the course looking at the whole.
Well, absolutely, yeah, yeah, no doubt about it. I find it. Now that's a little bit ancdotal because I'm just going by my experience. But for sure, everybody I've ever had to, any time I've ever watched anybody never look at where they want the ball to go the distance they needed
to go. If they just do that, if I add that step to their routine, they improve immediately, they automatically, and they'll actually they'll actually hit one every once in a while and immediately say, oh, that's too hard because they recognize I put too much energy in that one to make it go that distance. So it is very helpful for sure.
No wait, let me let me stop you. And when you say that's too hard, is that when they're looking at the hole, well, or when they're looking at.
The bull look at the ball? They might be looking at the ball on this one, but they'll hit it and immediately no, that's too much energy for the distance they needed to go. And they're knowing it as the ball's ten feet off the face of the putter, so they're even their their awareness of speed becomes increased very quickly or improved very quickly. Yeah, I think it's a bit. I think it's hard for people to do that out
on the golf course. But I mean a lot of people that I know that have switched to that strategy, that looking at the hole do it because they get so distracted with the putter, you know, watching the putter go back and forth and getting consumed by that that if they just take that out of the equation and the strokes are not that bad, and if they's got to free free themselves up a little bit just to get the right distance and the right speed. But it's
amazing how quickly people can adapt to it. I've gone out on the golf course and tried it some. But it is awkward, no doubt it is awkward, But some people it's about the only way thing, but they really struggle with putting without that.
Do you recommend instinct putting to putters to be looking at the hole all the time, or you know, once they get comfortable with it. Is this something you use just on your short puts inside ten feet maybe or whatever, you know, or take it all the time.
Yeah, it's good. That's a good question. I think probably that. And this is just more my observation of people who
use that strategy. It makes it instit you could use it all the time, but I think some people really are more comfortable with it in like, for fact, I'm just thinking of a person the other day that if they were outside of ten feet they use that, but then inside the ten feet they felt like they had a good they had a free stroke, it was not bogged down by mechanics, and so they weren't worried so much about the speed. But on the on a forty footer, they're always kind of defaulting to I got to have
a better sense of how hard to hit it. So they felt like their speed was really the issue for those types of putts, which means statistically it's probably true. I mean, you're probably gonna three putt from forty five feet more so by you know, by distance and by by misreading the green I suppose. I mean not all the time, but certainly the people I see they're gonna they're gonna miss a forty foot or because of speed more so than the green or the slope, so that
they do that more. But I think it was Jordan speed, wasn't he He was kind of doing it more on the shorter putts, you know, the maybe the fifteen feet, and I mean for a while. So I think it just depends on the person, I guess.
But yeah, every time I talk about this, people go, oh, Jordan Speith did that for a while. Yeah. Yeah, And did you ever work with him?
No, No, actually I did not. I think Cameron. I'm not too sure if his coach took the information because he saw it we published it someplace, or maybe it fit in you Later on he recognized that, you know what, we've kind of done a study that matched up with what they were doing. But he certainly was for a while doing that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, all right. So when you started doing this research, and this is what like now fifteen eighteen years old or even older, when you started doing the instinct putting.
Mosh yeah, oh sorry, yeah, yeah, the instinct putting. Yeah, I guess we did we did probably two thousand and six or something like that.
Yeah, right, right. Since then, there's been a huge, let's call it impact on the golf commun unity by zero torque putters, especially LAB Golf leading the way and the success they've been having. Yeah, more and more. Do you know, Sam han over it Lab Golf.
I do not know. I mean it is. I mean it's They're pretty hot right now for sure.
Yeah, the hottest. Have you seen a putter company explode like that, or even any golf independent golf company explode like that.
I don't. I don't think so, and I think it would.
Uh.
In fact, I was just virtually having a conversation today with a guy who was asking me if I had any remember the back in the day when Jack Nicklaus won Jack Nicholas won the eighty six Masters, and he had that really big aluminum putter that McGregor made for him, and he was for some reason looking for that putter, And we are talking virtually in terms of that was the hottest putter of the week after the Masters, for sure, and nobody could nobody had them. These guys have really
changed the way people are thinking about the putter. It's it's certainly going to be. It'll be around a lot longer than the aluminumutter. Nicholas, I think so. But yeah, it's it's amazing really what they've done. Yeah, it's great. It's exciting. Tact people wander by the putter.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now you have companies going we have a zero torq putter. We have a zero tork potter. And then you do the test that Sam usually does with the revealer and it's like, yeah, it's not really a zero torg putter. Have you tried using a lab putter? Have you worked at all?
I have? I have messed around with it. Somebody one of our staff had one. We were out there trying it and it felt great. I mean, as far as I think I'm probably a little bit to old school and the head designs, but I mean as far as it's still it's still had a great putt. And I would love to see I'd love to see somebody do some research on and I'm sure they've got this someplace.
But you know, just how the ball comes off the face slightly different than not to pick on any but the Scottie Cameron or something like that, is there all that much difference? In how the ball comes off the face, and it'd just be interesting to see that. But that feels good to me. I like the butter, nothing bad.
Yeah, well, I'm going to leave that scientific research to you.
Oh no, no, I don't do equipment. I don't do equipment. No, that's way too hard. Yeah.
Well, it's interesting when I even when I started to play golf not long before. I mean I was in my forties when I started playing, not long before I started doing the podcast, and you were on the show, and so I was really ignorant about so much of it. And I'm not saying that I'm not ignorant still, That's why I keep asking questions. But to me, my I always went to a center shafted mallet putter. Yeah right, And so when I first saw a LAB and it's like,
oh well, this is definitely for me. And the one thing that I think that LAB users will agree on is that no matter where you hit it on the face, you're pretty much going to get the line that you set up for. Yeah right, it's gonna you know, it maybe affect the speed a little bit if you hit on the toe or on the heel, but the lines trying to be true.
Well, that's I mean as far as if you can, if you can create consistency in that, you can really, at least to me in putting, if I have somebody that has the buttterface a degree open at impact every time and it's more or less centered hit, I mean, you can change it. But maybe that's not where you got to put your attention. Maybe you just need to worry about distance control or better reading of the greens
or something like that. So yeah, if you can, if you can minimize the dispersion coming off the face by head design, it makes a lot of senses of being very popular. And I'm sure they're going to sell a bunch and there'll probably be a lot of people trying to recreate some of the same ideas in the next wave of products. But yeah, I mean it makes sense.
It's just like anything else we we mess around with the Sam Putt lab in our school and the amount that people how much the starting direction is so different. So with golfers, amateur golfers at least that there's just no consistency in that, and if you can influence influence that by that putter design, or if they tow it and heal it you still get the same start point. Not too bad.
And that's part of why I'm feeling so strongly about doing instinct putting now, is that I feel that if I'm looking at my target spot, not looking at the ball, but where I want the ball to go or end up or pass through. I mean, it depends on how far the putt is and what the break is that the lab putter is going to just obey my command. Basically, right, I'm feeling comfortable. So then to me, it's all about
the distance control. Always has but now looking at the target, my distance control is even better because I know where it's going better feel for it. And again you got to trust it. You can't use any doubt. You can't like in their backstroke going is this right? I'm not, Yeah, You've really got to trust it.
Well, I think one thing that I would I would tell I'd say to golf professionals who when they when they we talk about this, I'll say, the one thing, the one flaw of the study, and we just didn't. We just didn't think about this. We should have had cameras set up that looked at the putting strokes, the differences between the stroke without looking at the hole and when they did look at the hole, because in hindsight, we were you know, Bob and I were standing back
there along. We had a lot of people helping us with the study, and a lot of a lot of the folks that were helping us with the study were saying that they thought the strokes looked better when that people were looking at the hole. Now, it was just anecdotal, but it we started thinking about that, and then it was, well, you know, we're watching somebody and it doesn't seem like they were moving their body so much, because if you move your body a bunch, it's probably pretty hard to
hit the putt solid when you're looking away. So maybe it's simplified the strokes a little bit, and that could be an argument for why people should give it a try, just because it could improve your stroke slightly. But we felt like that's what we saw happening. But we didn't have any We didn't gather any data on how did the stroke change. We just were basing it on.
Outcome so interesting and one of the huge elements of the instinct putting that I think it solves a big problem for so many golfers is that in their normal stroke when they're looking at the ball instead of the target. As soon as the ball leaves the putter face, their head is turning to see where it's going, and that's going to impact and they don't really realize. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't realize that when they turn their head like that, their shoulders are now
turning and it's going to affect their stroke. Sure, they'll probably be offline.
Yeah, no, I agree, And I think the other for sure. And I think the other benefit of it is that it's hard for people to catch really where the so the ball gets struck. By the time you really see where it is, it's probably five feet in front of you already, and so they do miss that first five feet of potential break or starting direction. So I think some of the benefits of it as well is that you're looking at the hole, but you've already got a perfectly You've got a good sense of where the ball
is starting out on your line. I think sometimes it's hard to see the starting point on your line when your head's down. Then trying to catch it five feet off the face, you missed thatily, So that's kind of one of the things I like about it too.
Right, is that your head has already turned, it's already there. Yeah, and it makes it and it makes a difference. It really does make a difference.
Yeah, I'm glad you like it. I'm glad you're having some success with It's great.
Yeah, And that's why I'm so glad that you after I reached out to you to have you come back on that, you did respond to because this has been everything i'd hoped it would be. In our conversation. I got all the information and I now have more confidence in the idea of looking at the hall when I'm putting, and I highly recommend. Now there is a new version of the book, right, it's a revised version. Tell me about that real quickly. Yeah.
Yeah, well, we just we wanted to update the information and just kind of add a few more things to it. I think it's you know, it's just one of those things, like anything, information changes over the years, and we just tried to update some of the information and it's I
think it's still still a good read. It's a little bit less dry than our evidence based golf book, but you know, off is pretty much straightforward with here study one and here's what we found, you know, so which again I think I think knowledge is information for the
amateur golfer is not a bad thing. Having a better you know, a good sense of what goes on, whether it's ballflight or the putting stroke, the new information that's coming out and putting, or even the ball flight laws with all the new technology, all that stuff is very helpful for golfers. So if you like reading a book, it's not a bad one, I suppose no.
And again it's called instinct putting revisited. Look where you want to put the ball Advised edition The Breakthrough Science based on Target Vision Putting Technique a great read, fascinating read. It's really going to spark your imagination. And at the very least, do it while you're practicing your putting, don't, you know. Don't start with it on the course, do that. Definitely practice with it a while before you take it out there, because you have to trust it, and you
do it. Eric Alpinfels from Pinehurst, again, I want to thank you so much for coming back on the show and for your longtime friendship with Golf Smarter. Appreciate it.
Thank you so much. It's always it's great to see. It's hard to believe it's been that long. So thank you so much and congratulations on all your success is great. What you're doing is great for for golfers across the board, so professionals as well as amateurs. H