Golf’s Ultimate Goal: Shooting Your Age or Lower | Mulligans

Hey, it's Josh carp and it's Friday, which means that we are airing a Golf Smarter Mulligans episode from the archives. Next week. We'll have a new interview on Tuesday with golf historian Stephen Proctor, so tune in and we're going to have a special giveaway. This week's three run is episode five hundred. Golf's Ultimate Goal Shooting Your Age Are Lower with Richard Sezna.

Gol Published on August fourth, twenty fifteen. Golf's Ultimate Goal Shooting Your Age with General Manager of Paradise Valley Golf, rich Sesna. This is Golf Smarter Premium.

Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast.

Rick, thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.

Rymma, it's great to have you on, and it's great to have you in your own community here. I'm going to take notes as we have our conversation.

I hope you don't mind certain.

And also not only will we have a Q and A, but we're go also have some tree of your questions and maybe you can win some prizes when we're all done, and we have some gifts for you when we're done. As well, we are live here at the Paradise Valley Estates in Fairfield, California, which is right near Travis Air Force Base in northern California. And this is really fun for me to be here with all of you today.

I certainly played high school golf and then went on to the San Diego Golf Academy, ran out of.

Money and story of many golfers in.

The United States Air Force, Thank you golf in the United States Air Force a lot of golf. Actually tried out for the Air Force golf team and made the team, but got bumped because the major that was retiring unretired of course, so I went back to my duties on the floor lightline, but spent four years in the Air Force, and at the time I volunteered at a golf course near Luke Air Force Base, which at the time was the only TAC base that did not have a golf course.

So I volunteered.

And while I'm volunteering, then I had access to both professional and amateur events. I always played as an amateur then individual that I worked with at this golf course, went on to work for the PGA Tour. Well, my enlistment was coming up, and I was torn between reopp and or whether or not I wanted to stay in golf, And of course it was unfortunate unfortunately for the military, I hope, but fortunate for me. I chose golf and I went to work for the PGA Tour.

Then when did you start playing?

I started playing actually in high school. I didn't start, oh really as a youth.

I my dad played Triple A.

Baseball oh for the Philadelphia Phillies organization.

Wow.

He was a catcher, so the years that he played, he was a home run hitter and a strikeout artist. So I grew up playing baseball. And I injured my shoulder in a bicycle accident between my eighth and ninth year, and so I didn't I wasn't gona be able to play baseball that year. So one of the one of my buddies who played golf, told the golf coach, you had to ask rich to try out for the team.

So I did. I went out and I thought it was great.

But baseball season was coming up, and I tried out for baseball again.

But the baseball coach.

And the golf coach had gotten together and decided that I was playing golf. Oh really, I wasn't playing baseball. And for the Riveries, I was in ninth grade. I was five feet tall away one hundred pounds, so.

That's a golfer's body.

Yeah, it was better for golf it was for baseball.

So I ended up on the golf team.

So was it the golf coach who was pushing the baseball coach? Who was the baseball coach. It's going you know what, I don't take them. He's yeah, take them.

I don't know that the two of them conspired to do, but they made the great choice. Ye first year, my in tenth grade played pretty well. I picked up the game fairly fast. The fact that I was playing a lot of different sports being athletic helped. The baseball movement does help. There is some things that can hinder a golf swing from baseball.

But I then went on and.

Got a job at the golf local golf course. I fell in love. I couldn't that was it.

I was hooked.

It happens every bit.

So I then the next year I became I was third on the team, and then the following year I was most improved golfer. So I was progressing and I was enjoying at an awful lot.

So where did that?

How did that get you to become a PGA professional?

After I left the Air Force and joined the PGA Tour, I immediately then joined PG of America. Because apprentice program, you're supposed to get in about achieve your apprenticeship to a class A golf professional about thirty six months. I did it in twenty eight. I wanted it. I really wanted it. I love the game and I wanted this to be my profession. So once I became a class A golf professional, then that gives you the opportunity to the next start

They hired me away.

That didn't go from Kemper Sports. I'm sorry to distract on that, but no.

Actually, keep in mind that when the USGA comes in to set up an event, it doesn't matter what golf course it is it's going to be hard.

It is a US Open. It's supposed to be the hardest test, sight.

Out fast, It's going to be very difficult, rough will be tall.

But for us, it's a huge success. Yeah, having it there.

We're the first golf management company to ever be selected to host.

A US Open.

Oh as opposed to a specific course or country clubs exactly right, interesting and a completely different venue. Right yeah, But do they have any sense that they think maybe it's not coming back to Chambers? But because there were so many complaints by the by the even the Hall of famersre it had issues with the golf course.

Well, I think if you look at the results and the numbers that these golfers shot, some of them shot some very low rounds, right, So the guys that that shot seventy four, seventy five, seventy six are probably going to complain, But they'd complain at any golf course they played shot that number. So no, I don't I think it'll certainly be back to Chambers.

Was it Nicholas or Palmer that talked about You know when a when a player complains that it doesn't suit their game, it's like, sorry, you're supposed to suit your game to the course.

That was Nicholas.

In fact, Chlais said he identified those that were complaining and knew he eliminated them from the field.

Interesting because it wasn't a positive approach.

Everybody is playing the exact same golf course for every event.

So now doing a little more research on you, before you started playing golf in high school, you had a very interesting life. Share that tell us a story about where you were doing as a young boy.

Well, for anybody that's interested in looking it up, look up kid Ko Ki d Coo. It was a movie about my life when I was a young man. When I turned eleven, I started my own company, I Incorporated, and I became the youngest president of any corporation in the history of the United States at that time. I

And how old were you eleven?

You were eleven and you said I have one of adults working for you, Well we did.

In fact, I was one of I'm one of ten kids. I grew up in the farming and ranching industry, and the four youngest children were the four that were involved in Kidco. And then we because we didn't have anybody of legal age, we hired my dad as our general manager, so we had somebody that could at least sign the.

Documents leaders sid the checks.

Yeah, absolutely, and we get involved in selling. We had a lot of horses on our property and we started selling horse manure as fertilizer to the local developer because by California code, you had to encourage growth when you put in a new road for embankments, and the developer found a way to do it for relatively cheap compared to sprigging or what any other means of putting vegetation down.

Well, that was an.

Invite to send that out to the media. My dad was a great promoter, and so he did so. It immediately hit the news wires and I ended up on Mike Douglas and MERV Griffin for folks in the audience would remember those kids are people too. I was on Ronald Reagan's program twice when he was governor. In fact, I have a famous line from one of his shows. I said, if I was old enough, I would vote for you twice. And Ronald Reagan has written me several

You're kidding. No, it's about you.

It's about myself and my three sisters and what we did with our own business.

Okay, got to look up the movie kid Co.

Yes, you were a.

Staff member of the Board of Equalization in the late seventies when this was going on. They weren't very happy because the number of individuals that called in to their facility in San Diego repeated those calls so often that it shut down their phone systems time and time again, and they literally came up with a way for us to be exonerated.

Oh my gosh, Oh it was terrific. Great story. Was a great life growing up.

Great story, great story let's get back to golf a little bit, and you're talking about Chambers Bay Kemper Sports, and it seems like numbers are high for great tournaments like this watching. But let's talk about the state of the industry right now. It seems as if there are golf courses closing all over the country. Not many are being built anymore. I think in twenty fourteen I read four courses opened in the United States and one was closing every eleven days.

Correct, what's going on.

We are no different than any other industry. We are subject to our own economy, whether it be a microeconomy or not. But we're also subject to major recessions. So there's going to be in every industry retractions. During the nineties, we were building two three, four hundred courses a year based on the prediction that we would never run out of the golfers.

We ran out of golfers.

As the segment of golfers changed, we then started seeing reclining declining numbers. So it's a natural retraction. It's unfortunate. It's the industry I'm in and I love it, but you are going to have to have this balance. The Many experts say that we have about sixteen thousand golf courses within the United States. Many experts say that a healthy balance is probably twelve five hundred. So seeing so many golf courses close is just a result of too many being built.

What do you think was the factor they got all the excitement, of course, is the glut of courses being built.

A couple of things.

There was a major report put out in the late eighties that stated that if we were so short on golf courses, the supply needed to be increased dramatically. Once developers figured out that you can sell more homes quicker for a higher value along a golf course, and municipalities figured out that they could do the same thing. Municipalities also figured out that they could convert green space, which legally they needed to have a percentage of green space in this city instead of it being a park to

And just around that time, there was this lightning rod on television charismatic golfer who was just dominating the sport as if it's never been done before.

Tiger Woods, Tiger Woods, it's exactly right. When I worked for the PGA Tour, you could tell when the best players in the world, especially Tiger, were leading a golf event, how there was a different type of energy. And when the tournament ended each day, the range would be flooded with people.

Interesting the range at the event, at golf facilities everywhere in the country.

Yeah, oh, I know, yes.

Definitely there was a storm that had been created. It was a great energy.

So once with Tiger, you've got Tiger Woods.

He played core sensational for ten or twelve years. He's had his personal challenges, and as we all know, golf is more psychological than it is physical. The best golf swings don't win every week. The best mind does.

Okay, so we're back.

You can control it. You've got to be able to control your brain, control your emotions on a golf course. If there's a lot going on in your world, it's difficult to win a golf.

Tournament, right, thank you.

I actually had a conversation with a former touring pro and he said that most people don't understand that when you're on tour, you have to be able to eat and digest anything. You have to be able to sleep on any kind of bed with no problem, you have to adjust to any time zone with no issue. And as far as not getting emotionally involved with the people you meet after the round of golf, you have to

It's right.

While I was working for the PGA Tour, I used to take time off and travel and teach golf and go to Hawaii and cabbo in different locations throughout the Southwest.

I did that.

Repeatedly, and when you get home, you're tired, and when you go to another location and you're expected to turn it on because you've got a whole group.

Of clients coming in that don't care whether or not you're tired or not exactly. They want to.

Start the golf instruction. They want to do what's on their schedule. So I feel for the guys that travel and do this for a living. It's a very tough business.

Very tough business. Now, let's talk about the state of the game. There's technology has changed the game radically, technology and golf balls, technology and golf clubs in the last ten to fifteen years. And it seems like because people are hitting it so much farther, golf courses are getting longer and longer. But they're building golf courses longer for the touring pros.

Not for us.

That's correct.

And you know there's some courses that I don't have a problem getting the ball in the fairway, but getting the ball close is a lot harder. I mean, the short game really is kind of disappeared because everything is so long, so long. But we even did an episode once called It's not about how long, It's about how close.

That's correct.

There's a titleist commercial right now that talks about the golf ball doesn't know who's hitting it right.

So it doesn't matter what game you have.

Play the game according to your satisfaction, what makes you happy. Don't play it at seven thousand yards, play it at five thousand yards, play it at four thousand yards unless you're playing in USGA events and you need to run to the computer after each round and file with the USGA.

Don't tee off of the t boxes.

Yeah, go out to the forward part of the of the.

Fairway play it forward, play it forward.

Part of that program to play it.

Forward, which is a terrible name, but a great idea.

It works great.

Anything that makes it easier for the golfer to enjoy, because the game is inherently difficult.

It's the easiest game in the world to enjoy.

I'm not going to just do it that four four and.

A half hours out in a fantastic setting with your friends, with your family.

So let's make it.

More enjoyable playing like I've been saying about eighteen years now, and my wife is now just starting to get interested in playing. And so the rule that we have when we play together is one I do not give instruction, which helps our relationship. I think every person should take that advice. Do not try to give instruction on a golf course. Their mind gets flooded. But what we do is, if we're playing a par three, she can tee off

We tell lots of folks double pars the max okay, and for certain events, we'll hater an event at our golf course and also adjust the game.

You know.

So if we have a group that we've seen two or three times and we know that they have a difficult time getting around the golf course, will assist them with a new game. We've got to find a way to get the folks.

They're trying so many joyable apps, so.

It's got to be enjoyable, but at the same time, it has to feel like a game to them trying.

So one of the most interesting things that's being tried right now just for the fun of the game, is fifteen inch holes.

Correct.

Have you tried this?

No? We thought about it. The biggest challenge with the fifteen inch cups.

I love the idea. I don't know that I would put it on every single hole just because of the difficulty of changing that cup. It's very difficult to keep a smooth surface on the greens. A four and a half inch cup is tough enough.

To keep it. We've all putted over a cup.

That's yesterday's littlber or is.

Hasn't been quite seated properly. You can imagine trying a fifteen inch cup and trying to keep the surface.

Of it that a cup that's a plate.

Yeah, so I like the idea.

We have a couple of five inch cups at Rancho on the chipping Green, Okay.

Which is great to encourage people to see that ball going in the hole more often.

And we have talked about doing special events where we might put an eight inch or a fifteen inch cup in for a closest to the pin or a hole in one contest. I think that's spectacular. I don't know if superintendents are ever going to be able to perfect moving fifteen inch cups.

That's the big issues.

This is the course superintendent's correct. I know a golf course near where I live in Marin County tried it for an afternoon they tried to day and they said that the rounds were down to three and a half hours and people were knocking ten to fifteen strokes off sure, on every hole. So and they had a lot of fun with it, but it's not a score you can record.

Correct. Purists are going to fight that as well.

Yeah, going to say, well the peists can do that.

And that's a whole other conversation about who is the USGA really concerned about?

You know, are we really they I know they want to grow the game. I know they want to bring a.

New golfers, but really it's the old guard who is saying, no, no, get out of my way.

You're right, You're absolutely right.

And I've always felt like the USGA was not an advocate for the golfer but for the golf course.

Well, I think the I think they're an advocate for the game itself because it encompasses so many traditions, and traditions are hard to break, they're hard to get rid of, hard to change. So I think they're they're certainly part of the purest approach to the game. However, they are engaged in a lot of programs that are encouraging the growth of the game. Yes, so yeah, I think you'll see in the next ten years you'll see a big change.

That would be great. I want to focus now because we're here at Paradise Valley of States today. I wanted to focus on issues that seniors have in golf, and even for the audience, the golf smarter audience that ranges an age from you know, twelve and up. And we've had I've gotten emails from twelve year olds and eighty year olds. Eventually all of us are going to be senior golfers. That's the whole point. We're all going to

I think we've gone from well, first of all, pace of play has always been an issue, no matter since golf it was created. Everybody's always pushing to play at a faster pace. Somebody once said, a good walk spoiled right, all right, And it really is a terrific four four and a half hours out there. Anybody that thinks that forty seniors of eighty years of age are going to play in four to four and a half hours under

Our whole world has sped up.

So if you look at the challenges we had with pace of play anyways, then you start adding this world that we're living in electronics, everything is fast. Those folks that are new to the game were expecting that same thing to happen. It's unrealistic. And if you start adding the new golfers that we have coming into the game, who don't have much experience, who do not have the proper etiquette yet, or no understand the rules the basics, those are going to impact pace of play as well.

Up and move forward. Please just enjoy it. Just continue to enjoy it.

So for those folks, for those folks, mark your good shots, not all shots.

That's exactly right.

Nobody is keeping track at the USGA or the PGA Tour of what your score was.

For the day. It just doesn't matter.

Just enjoy it. So pace a play is always going to be a challenge. It's never going to go away. We as operators, though, have to continue to find ways to move golfers along. We like to tell folks that you're not slow, but that you're falling behind our desired pace. There's a nice way to say it. We'd like you to regain your position on the golf course based on time.

It's not always easy.

I've worked at resorts where people pay two three hundred dollars a person to play. Their answer is I paid my money, I'm going to take as long as I want.

That's tough, but.

So did everybody else here on the golf course.

And that's our answer.

So sometimes you actually remove those folks from the golf course wow, because you can't have four impacting two hundred.

So it's always going to be challenge. It's never going to go away.

But we as operators have to find ways to encourage people to play at a faster pace, and sometimes that means are marshals have to recognize that certain golfers don't understand that, like everybody waiting for somebody to hit, well, if you're going to play at a reasonable pace, you play your ball when it's your turn or when it's safe to hit it. Doesn't somebody else is not ready. Don't wait for him just because it's not your turn, based on the distance you are away from the pin.

Just play golf.

What are the instructions that marshalls get about trying to keep the pace of play moving, because mostly what I see with marshals is I'm driving going, you're moving slough, come on, pick it up, and they're no help.

Well, that's remember that the generally the individuals that take those jobs are people that have retired from other industries. Nice they're looking for something to do right, They're looking for something to do. Our facilities converted from the marshals being a paid position to a volunteer position simply based on the economics. Of course, we needed to find a way to save money. So you're asking somebody a general manager. Rick Rennick, who I worked for at the PGA Tour,

Pace of play. May I make a suggestion, absolutely.

I would appreciate that if marshals have noticed that a specific group is slow, or if they're sitting in their cart on the fairway watching them tee off and they see that the ball is going to be difficult to find, why can't the marshal mark where the ball is? Why can't they take their hat and put I found your ball so that you don't have to spend five, six, seven, ten minutes looking for your ball.

You know, it's like that to me.

Is where the marshal could really help out.

If we do that, it's gay for you, yes, yeah, we do that.

Good for you to actually teach our staff to rake bunkers well, right to put a flag to give walkers and assist put them in the cart, drive them forward.

Is this a Rancho Solano and Paradise Valley States golf course thing? Or is this a Kemper Sports thing?

This is a Paradise Voul Rancho Salona. But I'm sure it's done. Ever so, the one thing at Kemper Sports as allow each facility to run as their own entity. So sometimes the rules that we have at this facility may not apply at another facility, so we adjust accordingly. But yeah, the marshal is there to help you around the golf course. That's his his or her job.

All right, let's talk about how what things we can do to help pick up the pace of play without having to deal with the marshalls. And let's just assume again we're talking about seeing Let's assume we're in a golf cart. We get a couple of people in a golf cart. What you know that's going to help immediately if they're not walking, it's going to make it a little faster. What suggestions could you make that would help help them pick up the pace in the golf cart.

Two golfers in a cart, drive up to the first golf ball. That person gets their yards maybe they're looking at GPS. They get their yard each, they get their club that they want to strike it with. And then if it's close, if it's a shot to the green, you want them to take their putter and their wedge and their if they have a towel, and they can then walk forward after they strike their shot while the

You'd be surprised.

So what you're saying is, go to the first ball that you come to, drop that golfer off, let him take everything needs, then go to your ball, and as soon as he hits, you're ready to go.

That's exactly right.

And then that if the golfer, the first golfer is on the green, second golfer hits their ball, he can drive by and pick up that golfer, yeah, and head to the green moving I like to put my golf bag on the cart and then whoever I'm playing with, I like to walk and I can literally by the time I walk up to my golf ball, I will wait because other golfers haven't quite finished yet, because I'm ready to go. I know, walking up, I'm already looking down for yardag markers. I'm ready that kart gets there,

Okay, another issue I would think that everybody has, and it's not just seniors, but as we age, the biggest complaint is I'm not hitting the ball as far as I used to.

It's correct, and it will happen to everybody, and.

It will happen to everybody.

But I have played, I have played with some senior golfers, and I've played with some women who don't hit the ball far and they beat me. It's correct because they're just hitting it straight. They just you know, plugging away and they're betting. They're getting their fives on every hole, or sometimes I'll get a four and a three, but they're just keep plugging to keep the ball in the fairway.

That's exactly right.

That's why senior golfers, some senior golfer groups can get around the golf course relatively fast. If they're decent golfers and they don't hit or don't have a tremendous amount of sight spin, their golf ball is always in the fairway, it's always in front of the green, it's always somewhere they can find it. Young golfers like the swing harder, which produces more spin, and golf balls that go all over the place, always looking for it.

Right, that's the military golf right right, yeah, exactly.

I'm sure the folks that one. Uh the uh. But if you ever played Ray Ray golf, Ray Ray Golf.

Ray Ray golf. Anybody here ever hear Ray Ray golf. I frequently play Ray Ray Golf. One shot I hit like Ray Floyd. The next one I hit like Ray Charles.

Oh, yes, yes.

So now that we're not hitting the ball as far, uh, there's a couple of things that we can do to maybe pick up a yard or two.

And one is your body.

And two is your equipment correct, Let's talk about your body for a moment. Fitness, flexibility, There are lots of programs available today to encourage a golfer to become more flexible and some strength training.

If you look at the best players in the world over the say, the last hundred years, only a couple of them, one being Tiger Woods was ever a workout fanatic that actually put on a lot of muscle. You look at Ben Hogan, Sam's Need, Tom Watson, Jack Nicholas, all the great players.

What did they do.

They played a lot of golf and they kept that motion constantly moving. So I would encourage anybody that's a senior that wants to get a little more length off the tee or just length throughout their bag. They've got a stretch more and try to get into some physical program that they can build some strength.

Second, was the equipment.

You asked about the equations, Well, I want to get but there's also flexibility.

Flexibility, Yeah, well as strength.

Absolutely, you've got a stretch, You've got to continue to try to keep the muscles elong and the joints somewhat supple.

All right, and now let's talk about the equipment as well.

All right, So the thing that we see the most in the golf industry is ill fitted equipment. First of all, young people think that they should be able to swing really stiff shafts or play muscle back golf clubs, which, for any of those that don't know, that's the difference between a tour professionals club and a club that is considered a cavity back.

Is more of the amateurs club, more forgiving, much.

More forgiving, and so the person that's new to the game actually is being is a disservice to them if you do not get them the proper clubs. Somebody new to the game should be swinging regular shafts, cavity back clubs, anything that's a forgiving golf club, get them lessons. For those that are of the senior age, they tend to still swing clubs that are too stiff and also too short.

And generally getting fitted for clubs is free. I mean, you can create a pro shop at a big box store. You can find people, but it's finding the right or even a custom club maker, but it's finding one that you trust that has some credibility of finding a good club fitter.

That's correct.

The Paradise Valley two years ago we built our own golf performance center. Oh and so we started two years ago with now two years later, we have facilities from all over northern California visiting us.

To see what we did.

Awesome, congratulations, and we fit and we have Kevin Hansen, who has built clubs for the past twenty five years, including on the PGA Tour. Kevin really knows his death and when you go see Kevin, he will have you hit your golf clubs and then he'll put you through

Right?

If you're hitting bladed shots all over the golf course because you can't get the ball in the air, I can't tell fun.

Yeah, no, I can't tell you how much know this past month I've had. I've at my past twenty rounds, looking at my ncgajin and my past twenty rounds. I've had three rounds in the seventies, which is a huge accomplishment for me at all, and only one in the nineties. And that is a huge goal for me, which was trying to get less rounds in the nineties and more and the better I found that, the better I become, the more fun it is. Although I love being out there,

One of the other things that I do, and I.

Can check easily check my ego at the door. And I have a lot of problem with my friends on this is playing different tea boxes. I don't need to play all the way back. I know sometimes I'll get in less trouble if I do. But playing you know, to me, it's I want to go out and score is best I can and have fun. So I'll play the white t's even though my slope may say suggest that I should be in the middle tees. Again, for seniors, drop the ego.

Drop the ego, and if you're not going to play the forward tees, put it up in the fairway.

It's okay going, It's okay to tee it up. We still make it.

The goal should be right that you want to hit your second shot with an ad ire or less.

That's right, right, that's what.

They do on the tour.

That's exactly right. So the farther forward that you go, find that mark. And for the folks that live in this area that play our golf courses all the time, we're not going to tell you that you can't tea off from the fairway. We're not going to restrict it to the tea box. I worked, or I took some lessons from an individual many many years ago who told me to start playing the forward tees And I said, what, you want me to play a forward teas, but I'm

Great piece about confidence, it's all about confidence. We did a show a couple of weeks ago, and I think it was called Golf is one hundred percent mental and one hundred percent physical.

There you go, it's all you get. It'll drive you're crazy, that's for sure.

But the key to scoring putting.

Short game, short game, you bet absolutely what are.

Seniors They can take advantage of us with that, because, yes, more time to practice if they're retired, don't have to worry.

About length.

And not always difficult the thing to practice, especially if it's just putting.

You can do it in your own place.

If you get a putting the seven foot putting matt and just practice your.

Line exactly right, practice distances, practice the three footers and without a cup awesome, practice on the carpet and practice to those different distances. Because if you can control the distance, all you have to do now is select the correct line. I mean, it's obviously both. You have to have a correct line. You got to have the correct speed. But if you're practicing that distance, that means you're always in the area, you're always around that hole because the distance is correct.

Right. I want to not only invite the Golf Smarter audience, but I want to invite everybody here to participate in a contest, not a contest, a drawing that we're having on Golf Smarter. We're giving away some wedges from the brand new Ben Hogan Golf Company.

Excellent.

They've just returned company that used to be called Score Golf and before that Idolon out of Texas and they've moved the company to Fort Worth. They bought the brand, the Ben Hogan brand, and we've talked about it on the program a lot, and very exciting. They've just come out this year with a new set of irons called the Fort Worth fifteens, and a new set of wedges

A while and I play.

I don't play a nine iron, I play my forty one degree. I don't play my pitching wedge. I play a forty five degree.

It took a while to get used to that, but I love it.

And now we're going to be giving away four pairs of these TK fifteen Ben Hogan Golf wedges.

Anything with Ben Hogan's name on it has to be good, right.

That's what we're very excited, and they just this year the PGA Merchandise Show in Orlando in January was the announcement of the introduction of these new Ben Hogan line of golf clubs, and the press has been going nuts. They've been very excited about it. They hit him there and everybody loved them. And I'm actually getting my set. They're arriving at my house today. I'm frustrated on them out here because I want to break this box open.

Very excited.

But for those here, if you want to enter to win, we invite you to do so. Go to Benhogan goolf dot com slash golf Smarter. For our podcast listeners in the show notes, you can click on the link there and you can win a pair of the TK fifteen wedges.

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it very much