EXCLUSIVE: 6 PGA Tour Winners Reveal Their Mental Game Struggles | #883

I hate the word routine because it's the wrong word for what we do. It's more process. It's something that's intentional. It's something that's like not involuntary at all. It's voluntary, and I'm keeping track of it as long as I go, and at the end of the shot, I actually judge the way that shot went based on how the routine was in the process, not on where the ball went. And if I'm good about the process, then I know that by the time night ball's gone, I'm still fully engaged.

But when I'm voluntarily engaged in the process along the way and then a thought comes in, like a doubt or the wind changes or something like that, it's real easy to catch when you're about to hit that anyway shot. So that's how I kind of keep myself honest and try to minimize those shots. And it's still really difficult for everybody to do that, But if you can keep it to a minimum, and you're gonna probably beat half the field just

from that. Hi, this is Aldo Maddie from Castro Valley, California, and I play at Monarch Bay with another Golf Smarter ambassador, Gen Shaw. This is Golf Smarter number eight hundred. Stewart said. Six PGA Tour winners reveal their medal game struggles with Kerrie Valentine at the Sony O. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred

Green. Welcome back to the Golf Smarter podcast. Kerry, Aloha, Fred. It is wonderful to be here as always, and it's an honor you are rocking this world with Golf Podcast. So thank you for having me on again. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay, So welcome back, Aloha. It's great to have you because each year now for what is this the fourth

or fifth year that we've done this like that. Yes, yeah. So you go out to the Sony Open when the PGA Tour comes to town, and you bring a little recorder with you and you're there it's practice day. It's they're out on the range, they're in the putting greens, and you stick a microphone in their face and ask them questions about it's unique questions which

I love about their mental game. Yes, it is. Um it's a blast for me to and and and and it's kind of like I'm I'm you know, I'm pinching myself as I'm interviewing these guys because, um, I mean a lot of these guys are just amazing. They're amazing golfers and really cool people and uh you know, yeah, yeah people, and you know they're for you know, I would say for the very most of them.

They they're very free with their time with me. You know, they you know, we may have short kind of moments, but they're very present and they're, um, they answer the questions straight on, which is really cool. Yeah. I did get that sense that they listen to your question and they respond to your question. Um. It's fascinating because they do seem very

present at least the answers that you gave. Now you interviewed six different people that you provided me information on. We have uh JJ Spawn, Jerry Kelly, Joseph Bramlett, kJ Choi, Aaron Rye, and Stewart Sink. And Stewart Sink gave you a lot of time. You did over thirty minutes with him. But what we're gonna do is we're gonna we're gonna go bits and pieces here. And I think Stewart Sink the most notable name, the most recognizable name to golfers, and he had so much to share. We're gonna

just pick it up right now. We'll start with Stewart Sink and he you knew about this an anyway shot? Yes, Uh, Stewart and I have talked quite a bit over the years, and so I've in a previous interview he talked to me about these anyway shots. So that's why I asked about him in this interview. Yeah, so you brought it up and he responded. So let's go right now to Steward Sink at the Sony Open twenty twenty three with Carrie Valentine and this is on the anyway shot. Ever since I

learned about the anyway shot philosophy. That was from a guy named Preston Waddington back about twenty years ago when I used to talk to him, and it just it crystallized in my mind that you know, that's basically hitting a shot when you're distracted, or when you're having a doubt or or a second thought or something, anytime you're not really fully engaged to execute, it's an anyway shot. Oh, because grandiosity tells you, like, I'm good enough to

hit this anyway. You know, it's still gonna turn out good because I'm talented, I've practiced, everything will be okay, you know whatever. Those are fine philosophies, but they're not very professional philosophies, and so one of

my goals for long time now has been to avoid those anyway shots. And I found it more and more challenging over the years because as I'm getting close to fifty now through fifty in May of this year, that my focus is just not as strong and sharp as it used to be, nor do I

have the longevity of focus that I used to do. So I have to really manage my energy, and part of that conservation of energy leads to a better chance to be having less anyway shots, because it's all about recognition, you know, and I'm pretty good usually at understanding the way my body signals are are flashing, and if I'm fatigue or if i'm you know, if I'm just I don't ever feel physically tired, but if I'm mentally just a little bit like washed from too much the day before or from a lot of

weeks in a row of being in contingent, then I don't recognize any way shots as well, and those hurt me. Is there a way that you kind of almost kind of recognize it as it's happening, or before it's happening, that you're learning or mastering that, or do you also share that with your caddy, like if you see me do this? If you or do you even say a clue like to help your caddy keep you on focus? Well, I don't really, I've never said to a caddy if you see

me do this. The reason for that is that the difference in the routine leading up the shot is imperceptible to the outsider. For the most part. It all happens between the ears and the way I. The way I would do it is more like before the shot, I like to use like verbal intentionality, and I like to tell my caddy almost in a kind of a watch this kind of a way, like I'm about to show off. And

it's there's a fine line between like arrogance and confidence. I mean, yeah, arrogance is something you have to have to be able to compete out here, but it's not something you need to display outwardly. You know. I don't want to be an arrogant, you know what. But at the same time, I do want to be an arrogant, you know what, when it comes to hitting my drive on the first hole or you know, getting

up and down on the last green or whatever, arrogance is key. So I like to state my intentions what I'm going to do and verbally, like actually say it out loud, so that number one, it keeps me accountable. My caddy knows that I'm into the shot. And then the actual routine itself is something that's not just I hate the word routine because it's the wrong word for what we do. It's more process. It's something that's intentional and

something that's like not involuntary at all. It's voluntary, and I'm keeping track of it as long as I go, and at the end of the shot, I actually judge the way that shot went based on how the routine was in the process, not on where the ball went. And if I'm good about the process, then I know that by the time that ball's gone that

I'm still fully engaged. But when I'm voluntarily engaging the process along the way and then a thought comes in, like a doubt or the wind changes or something like that, it's real easy to catch when you're about to hit that any way shot. So that's that's how I kind of keep myself honest and try to minimize those shots. And you know, it's still really difficult for everybody to do that, but if you can keep it to a minimum, you're gonna probably beat half the field just from that. Is that is that

kind of anchor or that intention, that affirmation that you do. Is that something you could share? You know, what you say to yourself before you You mean, like the when I like the stating the verbal intentions. Oh no, it's it's not always the same. It's about the shot. It's like I'm I'm gonna take five yards off the six iron, and I'm going to write at that bush. You know, we've already talked about it, like I like this bush. He might say, I think it's more posts,

you know, behind the green. We always pick out targets, very rarely flatstick. Almost always something behind the behind the green or the fairway. But I'll just verbally state my intentions and it's usually has to do with the shot, and it's usually like I'm taking up you know, it's a full six right at that bush, or it's ten yards off this nine iron, a low punch right at the left edge of the trap. You know,

that's the kind of thing I'm doing. Yes, and then from that point on it it's up to me to get in the process and to produce that shot. And then we'll spend a few seconds analyzing the results, like, WHOA, that played a lot longer than I thought, or oh, you know, I was a little distracted on that and I hit it anyway, so that's an anyway shot. And so but we try not to linger too much on the judgment. We try to really try to create a non judgment

or a judgment free zone out there. So much for all of us to learn from everything he just said. Correct, Yes, Oh, I mean there were so many things that were just so valuable. That's why I wanted to kick it off with that, because your intention when you're talking to these guys, you want to talk about the mental game because of what you do, but you also get into religion, which we'll do that with Stewart Sink

later on and some of the other players that you talked to. Fascinating that you also were aware that his son was his caddy last year, not doing it this year. Yeah, but you talk to him a lot about his son being his caddy. I'm just gonna go right to it. Is a

son's name is Reagan. And here's what he had to say. Curious about your relationship with you know, Reagan in terms of him being your caddy and like, because he knows you so well, did he also like kind of know how to manage you on the course and even beyond the course after to help you, you know, because it seemed like you guys had such great success together. We did, and I think he can point to a couple of things. So the second part of your question, how did he manage

me? And did he understand how to do that? I think that's something that he probably didn't know how to do until we started getting into the tournaments, because he's seen me play a lot of times, and vice first,

I've seen him play a lot. You know, we play together at home quite often, especially during COVID, but he's never seen like the nervous and the under pressure side of me as much because at home, I'm pretty relaxed, and I can you know, when you're in that relaxed state, you can pretty much do what you want to do with the golf ball, and out here, you know, you can have other forces that kind of affects

you psychologically and emotionally, and it's a little different ballgame. And I don't think there's one player that's competing in Sony Opened this week who would say otherwise. So Reagan learned how to deal with that golfer as we went. Now, going back to the first part, what was it about, you know, our relationship and how it turned into a good, successful partnership out here, I think the biggest things is that two components of any relationship got immediately

wiped off the table, and that was judgment and conflict. I've obviously known Reagan since before he was born, and likewise since he was born, he's known me, so we had this inherent trust for each other in relationship. And he's a bright kid, and he knows golf really well. His golf IQ on the courses like elite like a tour player. Now he can't quite play golf like a tour player, but he knows the way the ball is

going to bounce and react in the wind and all that stuff. He's excellent attack, very high IQ for golf sou and knowing that I trusted him with his decision making and he always dis trusted me with mine. In fact, he learned a lot about how to play different shots and how to read lies and how to you know, strategize on the course from me from playing with me. So it was a lot like having a little bit of myself out

there Caddy. And but the unconditional love that comes along with the father and son relationship and a good, healthy relationship like ours, that really did away with any of the judgment and the conflict that can be present with other caddy player relationships. I mean, it's just a normal part of any two human beings being in a relationship. But with him and I, that part of it was not a factor, And because it wasn't a factor, it ended

up being a huge factor, you know, in our success. Is there things that you've taken from that relationship, that experience and maybe like was you hadn't had that before with a caddy. You go, oh my gosh. As they go forward, I'm gonna make sure we talk about this or that

Caddy holds me up to this kind of standard or things. One thing that I learned with Reagan myself was that I was really open and free to talk to him and tell them how I was feeling and tell them if I was afraid, or tell them if I was confident, or you know anything. Sometimes we hide behind those things, and so with Reagan, I was never afraid to tell them how it felt. And I felt like that was a

really good a good takeaway for me that being outwardly verbal. You know, I can't remember where I got the quote, but someone told me that. Abraham Lincoln one time said a problem shared as a problem halved. That's a great quote. And I just always felt like if I was feeling weird about a shot, or if I was having some indecision, it was always best to get it out there and say something, and the problems halved, you know. And it just felt like a good thing to do. And there's

nothing new. I think a lot of players use that tactic, but I learned that about myself with Reagan, and so I've definitely kind of vowed to keep that going now that I've got Scott satch Night worded woman, and I agree with you on that idea of problems shared is half and I think it depends on the individual with their their emotional temperance as well, Like you can just say stuff, but I think the way you are and the deep thinker,

and especially I'm just assuming like with Reagan, like that actually helped me leave. I'd imagine some of the stresser or the emotional things going on by sharing it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It just you can say the same sentence in two very slightly different ways and it comes across way different. Like let's say I was guiding for you and I felt like that the

yards we have on this one, part three is a perfect set. And I could either say this is the perfect club and give you the confidence to go and you know, like, well I can be free on this and this is the perfect club. Or I could say, if you hit this solid, it should be perfect. What does that tell you? Because that tells me don't not hit solid right, And the last thing you want to

be thinking about on the golf shot is contact right. So both of them said the same thing, and if you asked, you know, a bystandards, they'd probably say, well, there's no difference, but the way that that translates into the way a player can like execute that next shot matters. And when you add that up over four days of seventy two holes of golf and a lot of shots and a lot of variety and variables out there. Some shots are dead perfect set up for you, and some of them are

decidedly not. If just it all adds up, you know, to may make four or five six shots difference out there, and that's the difference between being in contention for winning in thirtieth place or worst. I don't know about you, but if you would have said to me, well, if I was your caddy, I would I'm like, oh my god, I can't imagine being my caddy. That was so cool. Yes, definitely, and it's so profound because of their relationship. I think that was really a big

part of how Stewart was able to win two times. You know, I was two years ago, and just because he's very he's you know, he's very aware of those emotions and those doubts, and he speaks about him and his relationship with Reagan to really work that out in the moment. I feel that was a big plus for his success that was going on with him.

It's incredible that he would have that kind of relationship that open free, he said, open and free relationship of conversation with your son and not you know, and let your son get your two kids two cents in and make you know, suggestions and criticism and being open to it. That's really that's really impressive. I agree. I agree, and it worked to be a great, great pairing. Yeah, remarkable. All right, let's take a time out. We'll be back. We've got coming up JJ spawn, Jerry Kelly,

Joseph Bramlett, kJ CHOI after the break. So Karrie, before we get back into some more of these amazing interviews that you've done and shared with us, and I really appreciate I don't know what else you're doing with them, but I really appreciate you letting us have them here because most interviews that are done with these guys don't talk about the mental game, and this is such a treat to be able to have this kind of insight into what a

tour player goes through and helps us to recognize that they really have a lot of the same issues that we do out there. It's incredible, right Fred, the you know, the from the guys that I coach from you know, amateur level to semi pro to pro level, and then talking to these guys, you go they're going through the same things, and some are willing to talk about and deal with it more than others, and and you see it. It's kind of fascinating. Tell me about JJ spond JJ. JJ

is so cool. I had a chance to meet him and kind of like his first year coming out, you know, from the corn Ferry tour, and so we chatted from that point on and and have had this kind of

similar kind of friendly relationship that I've had with Stuart Sink. So it's just been great to talk with JJ over the years and see him, you know, his his ability and his championship qualities come out and it's and just like Howie has shared with me over the years, he's had to get adjusted to each level, you know, from high school to college to the pro and different different nuances with each but JJ is it's just he wears it on his shirt, you know. It's like he'll tell you like it is. And

he's a really cool guy. Awesome. Well, but another back and forth conversation that you had with him talking about goals and his mental game, and here it is, JJ spawn. My initial goal is to win again and to put myself in contention really to win as much as I can. So that's that's the process I can really control. And then you know, hopefully when I'm in contention, I can pull it off. But I think we're kind of doing a good you know, we're off to a good start and

we're doing the right things. So I'm just trying to stick to what I've been doing the last year year and a half now that's been working out nicely for me. When you went at the Valerio, was there any moments when you felt like you're in the zone, like something different was happening. And if so, I mean you you hear about it, and you talk about it, and you hear other people talking about being in the zone, and it's it's a weird kind of flow. I want to say that you can't

really force because you would love to be in that all the time. But I think the thing that I noticed the most was the sense of calm I had when I was in those really high pressure situations, you know, coming down the back nine with the lead, and I think that's what the zone is, and you kind of feel like you can't hit a bad shot or

you can't hit a bad put. So, um, I think the hardest thing is trying to yeah, capture that, you know, day in and day out, no matter if it's the first round or the last round, but you know, I think that's the peak performance where you want to be in order to you know, win and play your best. Did you find like you did something different that week or you know, or something was going

on differently? Yeah? No, UM, it's funny that you bring it up because it's kind of like the second time this happened, which was last week, where I didn't do I didn't overwork too much. Um. I played a lot of golf leading up to that week and at Valero, and UM, I had a week off at home and I didn't touch a club at all in the off week, which isn't normal for me normally I'm working on something. But I felt so confident where my game was that I didn't

really feel like I needed to I'd rather just rest. And so we got there on Monday of the tournament. You know, I came. I went there with my family and you know, our daughters. She was a year and a half at that time. But there's a water park, so it was a big family affair. Yeah. Yeah, So we were just kind of like hanging out and you know, I practiced a little bit here and

there. I didn't even play all eighteen holes in a practice round. Um, and just kind of went in there, not with any expectations, but not any not low expectations, but just I felt confident that I was going to have a good week. And you know, I kind of put myself in position, you know, after Thursday and Friday to be right there, and I didn't change, you know, I still hung out with my family, went to the water park and just chilled out. But um, and

I kind of did that last week in Maui. I didn't really do too much practicing. I just played the course to see it, and my wife literally put a five hour time limit on my practicing so I could, you know, spend time with them in a beautiful place we've never been to before. So and end up being another good week. You know, it was I kind of had a chance to win, so you know, maybe this is something that I need to try to do a little more often during the

rounds to between on the off time. How did you feel Was there any kind of added pressure or anythings that were going on in the head or it was kind of pretty silent. No, I mean I think I didn't really have the outright lead I co led. I think after Saturday and yeah, I mean you start to hear, you know, the voices in your head speaking to you, and you know, what what could this mean to you

in your career? And you know, next week it's Augusta and you've got people texting you stuff like that where it's hard to just completely shut it out. So I think the most human thing was to, yeah, accept it, think about it, and just try to forget it and move on and just stay focused on what I can control the next day. And I think I did a pretty good job of that, you know, mentally, and you know, I think I'll lean on that experience, you know, as

other opportunities come. Does this ever has ever happened? Like you're standing over a three foot put and yeah, you hear like, oh man, you're gonna blow this, like you got so many times? If that, how

do you address that in yourself? Well, I just like to think, like, if I'm ever nervous over a shot, especially a pretty not simple but a typical shot, I just like to tell myself I've done this a million times, and just because it's in a given context or situation, like it's no different than if I was out here, you know, by myself. It's still me in the hole and three feet of grass and you know,

a ball to roll into that hole. So I think that's the best way to have, you know, some to have a perspective like that, to kind of dump things down instead of putting too much pressure, because that ultimately can you know, make you a little more anxious over shots or get in your own way, and especially if you get in your own head. Absolutely, if you get in your own head. What I absolutely loved is that you asked him about the tension of a three foot put on the tour

level, these guys worry about that three foot or two. I mean, they're just golfers, man, but it's just a different level with more pressure. But they still struggle with the things that we struggle with for sure, definitely, and even the young ones. Yeah, for the young cocky ones. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a new show that just was released on Netflix as we're talking, called Full Swing, and it's like this

docuseries about the PGA Tour. And I watched episode one last night and it's interesting because in episode one, it's Jordan Spieth and Justin Thomas, and Jordan Spieth is talking about how good he felt going into the tournament. How you know, like with JJ was talking about I was feeling good, I'm feeling and he had a terrible tournament, right, So you know, no matter how you're feeling, you just don't know once you get onto the golf course.

It's a completely different thing. Now going to the other end of the spectrum. You talked to a youngster. Now we're going to go back to someone you had a conversation with and we shared last year with Jerry Kelly. But still issues with the mental game. Even when you're battling between whether you're gonna be on the PGA Tour or on the Senior Tour, there's Jerry Kelly.

As the year begins, do you look back at last year and do any resetting, revision, kind of set different goals and things like that for this year. Oh, there's no question. You have to every single year. Uh, you know, you have to give yourself some some lower goals to achieve towards the higher goals. So you know, I'm always looking to just win the first tournament, and then we're looking to win a major, and then we're looking to finish it off with the Schwab Cup. We start

that way every single year, I mean to culminate it. When I was on the PGA Tour, I'd say I'd want to be, you know, number one in the world, which was a tall order because Tiger and I were rookies at the same time, so I'd never achieved that one. Uh. But you know, you give yourself the low goals and the high goals so you can step your way through it. I was curious, what are

like those smaller incremental goals to keep you motivated through it all? Right now, it's it's it's just a just win a tournament, you know, just just win. I mean back in the day, you could have said, okay, you know, secure your top one twenty five, you know, and then it would be a win, and then it would be but out in, out of the champions toured. Yet you know that that win is what I'm after every single time. So when then when a major win multiple

times, when the Schwap Cup, that's it. How many tournaments on the PGA side do you play a season, you know at this point, I mean usually one, maybe two. So I always play the sony which this may be my swan song right here. Uh, twenty fifth straight sony, so uh, and then I've I'm in the players because I won the Senior Players, so you know, unless we win majors, we don't get exemptions into any of the tournaments. But yeah, those are those are my two

this year. Is there a different kind of gear you playing from you know at this point playing on the sony, you know, playing in this tournament unfortunately champions unfortunately, Like well, it just you know, you just you get more adrenaline and you try and hit it harder, and that's usually detrimental. So I need to understand my adrenaline. And yeah, you know, I'm just finally, you know, feeling pretty good about relaxing into it rather

than fighting into it. I've fought into it my entire career. But we've got to try something a little different as I'm getting older. Has there been a mental game challenge that you've seen, like maybe over the last year or over the last few years, that you've overcome, and like, if so, how did you do that? Now? I haven't overcome any of my mental challenges. They are they are all still there, all very prominent and something I work on every single day. So yeah, you're working with the

mental game coach. You know, I've been through you know, ten or fifteen of them, and I took something from every single one of them. And you know, at my age, it's it's not trying to reinvent the wheel or do anything different. It's just, you know, understanding how detrimental thought processes will affect your attitude rather than just trying to be positive through some difficult times. And everybody knows it's not easy, but that's what we all

trying to do. It's easier on the islands, that's for sure. It's easier on the islands. Yeah, low stress right on the islands. But I really find it interesting that, you know, you ask all these guys about their mental coaches, and none of them seem to be employed, but they all know how important the mental game is. It's such an amazing point you just mentioned, Fred, that every golfer right is going to say the mental game is such a big component, and yet not everyone is willing to

take themselves on and willing to really improve themselves. And it's fascinating to me that as golfers, especially at this level, will say these things and then not do anything really about it. So, you know, you hear like

like with Jerry. Yeah, he's worked with different guys. But if to me, if you're still having the same problems, then you haven't addressed the issue that and they can be addressed and it's only going to make your play that much better, lower your scores, feel more fulfilled, and also improve your life, you know, as a person. Yeah, so these are Yeah, that's why he said, I deal with the mental challenges every single day. Yeah, and you don't need to know I'm not familiar with Joseph

Bramlett. What do you know about him that you can share with us before we listen to him a little bit. Yeah, Joseph on the mental game. He's going to be talking about the medical journal. You know, Joseph is one of also those up and coming golfers. He had I believe a back issue for a number of years that took him out of the game, and you know he's coming back and you know, in the last few tournaments he's been up on the leaderboard here and there, So that's been exciting to

see him. And also, uh, he's he's by racial So the diversity aspect for golf I think is really important to understand, no, and keep keep bringing people from around the world of into the golf game. Joseph Bramlett. Yeah, the mental golf is golf. It's all about the mental game. So um, it's a huge influence on on who perform as well who

doesn't and uh and how the leaderboard shakes out. Does let's say, one or two bad shots start to kind of you know, affect you in the mind and kind of like you know, to readjust and reassess and if that does happen, what do you do to make it to like shift down on that? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the keys to golf is being able to stay present and stay in the moment that you're in. So it sounds very cliche, but at the root of it, that's really

what it's all about. So um, yeah, I mean the biggest definitely every one of us. When we hit bad shots, it definitely pisses us off and we were fired up and we don't like it. And you see two in a row and you wonder if it's a pattern, but you just try to sort through them and then figure out if there's something going on or if it was just two loose swings, and then apply whatever you need to for the next shot, But now that a presence is really what's important and

to have that as well as to kind of find like that inspiration. Is there anything that you kind of pull from like during around to kind of like keep in that inspired space. Is there thoughts? All? We have all kinds of little things we pull on from the cookie jar. Yeah, I've got a lot, and this is this has been my dream since I was five years old. So I've got plenty of memories and inspiration and reasons from within that motivate me to work really really art. And uh, you know

the reason I do that is to performing well out here. So things are going poorly or if it feels like it's not my day, you definitely have to pull from some of that and remember that, yeah here for a reasons you need to get the job done right. And then like that thought, like you said, like it's not your day, Well that's that moment, right, like you said, being in the present. There's a fleading thoughts

that we all experience and it's it's a part of everyone's game. But it's a matter of how you sort through them and how you how you interpret them. And yeah, it's it's just a thought, doesn't make it real U. But yeah, there's definitely days that you have three or four lipouts in a row and you wonder if somebody up above is picking on you or not.

Yeah, speaking of that, do you have particular goals or kind of kind of plans that's like especially now starting the year, Like like you look back at the year past and go, Okay, here's what it was good, here's what it was challenged, And if so, what are those things

that you look to make a change for this year. Yeah, I mean I have little parts throughout my entire game that you know, I'm looking to get better at, and I've got you know, specific things to what I do that I think if I can really clean up, it can really take me to another level. And all of that is just part of my question to get my first win out here. You know, that's really the page

I'm on right now. So the biggest goal is to get that win, and I've got a lot of smaller goals within my game that will hopefully give me there. Stay present and be in the moment. It's, you know, something we hear so frequently, but it's so tough to do when things when you like yeah, he said two bad shots? Is it just me? Or what am I doing? Right? And doesn't that happen to all

of us? Oh yeah? And then the key again is turned into round and not be affected by those bad quote unquote bad shots and just reassess what's the next target. That's trust, trust your swing, trust what you're doing instead of questioning with every shot, don't do that, don't go there all right, this one, this one, we're gonna go to kJ Choi. Um, you just asked him about his mental game and he just riffed on

it. And we're gonna do this one will and we'll go right into a break right after this with kJ Choi, I think maya quite long um and uh pray and then um um Jesus and God and thanks for and the mentally okay watching me and the practicing is a more better, you know, um focus playing a lot and still play a lot. And the human thing in the body, it's a little old, but a little spirit in the come

through uh and in the liquever everything. Um, still tough, but always a younger player a little a little more every day and I'm practicing and then how much you know, there's a no change is a continual play and I'm practicing and on more strong minds and plus and the prey it's a more better and so my opinions, yes, So when I'm hearing you say you bring to your connection with God and your faith, you bring that into your play

when you're playing, and that helps a lot for you. Yeah, it's some Some tournaments are not not gray comfortable, but some tournaments and very incomfortable either. Um, you know feeling, you know that's right. The bad feeling is a more prey and then more enjoy play. Not too good today, So dudge matters always a god love me and continue people love me? Is because angry shot but never showing to not angry, So why kJ not

angry? So normal people say, oh that shot is angry in the broken club and then something wrong you know, and then never never do it in the last twenty four years in the PA too, in the Champions Tour, many younger player and then look at me, why do that? It's a yeah, I keep keep it up and not practicing and then pray, so always watching you. You know it's something wrong, it's not give me give you any present it's not and then keep it up and a young player.

Going back to kJ CHOI for a moment. There were times where I wasn't sure if he was saying play or pray. But then when you heard him say play, oh, no, he was actually saying pray. Yes. Yes, I didn't know that part about him, that of his deep faith. And actually that's what got him into the movie Seven Days in Utopia and he played t k Oh And I don't know that movie. You mentioned it in the internet. Tell me about that, and he was involved in it.

What was there? It's a great golf movie and really yes, yes, and Lucas Black was in it as an actor, but he is also

a really good golfer. And Robert Duval was in it. And Robert Duval plays like, you know, the the old golfer and kind of he helps Lucas Black get back into his game because Lucas has different anger issues and he's you know, trending in his at the PGA level in the movie and he just like you know, it just bottoms out at one point and and then he kind of connects up with Robert Duval about how to transform the anger and through his mental game. So is a beautiful film and a powerful film and

I highly recommend it to any golfer. Yeah, oh absolutely, that's great recommendation. Thank you. So a lot of these conversations that you have, you go from mental game into their faith and the religious belief and the strength of it and how it influences Why do you do that great question? It just happens naturally in some cases, Fred, I don't even intend it.

But it's just because the mental game, the vulnerability, that feeling of the you know, the darkness of the monsters quote unquote, right, the demons. It often brings up the thoughts of our spirituality and what is really going on. And you know, from my perspective and from my experience of doing so much research on the mind and the mental game, not just for golfers, but for people in general, I have come to understand that the doubts

are actually our friends. They're not our enemies. They're trying to help us. But they come up in the voice of the negative. It's like it's like the you know, the good and the good aspect, but coming out in the wolves clothings, you know, and it's challenging. What happens is the doubts challenge our resolve and they're testing to see. Basically, we're about to be on the doorstep of success. Are we ready and willing to really

be in that space and claim it? That's why, like I bring it up about a three foot put on the eighteenth hole to win a championship. You know so many times guys here you're going to blow this put. And the point of it is you're about to win. You're about to sink this put. But if you don't understand the language of the subconscious with the conscious, then you think it's enough right to have a little sweaty palm, enough to just take your pregame preshot routine off for that three foot put and you

lose, or you miss it and you lose. Or the guy or woman who understands this actually when they hear that, they laugh and they go, oh, I know I'm about to have success. Why because I just heard in my head you're about to blow this, and I know now how to turn this around and stay calm, breathe read, read the put, sink the hall, win the championship. Awesome. You do a lot of that. That part of the conversation. In the next one we're going to listen

to, which is a little bit longer. I'm just gonna let this one go. This is just over ten minutes. We're gonna have a conversation here with Aaron rye Um. Tell me about him. He's another young hot player coming up for sure. What I mostly knew previously to to talking with Aaron was that he has the world record for the most pots ten foot puts in a row ten feet in under, world record for ten foot and under puts in a row. Yes, on tour, No, like it was a

competition, coetition, Oh, okay, okay, And he sunk. He sunk two hundred and seven puts in a row at that and that was like his third attempt. He told me. His first attempt he did, he got seven. Then the second attempt he got forty, and the record at that time was one hundred and thirty six. So he blew it out of the water. So I was fascinated. I was like, I gotta talk to this guy. Well, let's listen to it right now. This is

Aaron. Right. It's probably the most important aspect of the game because we can group the mental side on how the pre shot routine is, how calm you are over your shot, how well you visualize it how clear you are in your mind, how you can think of the right thoughts but clear the other thoughts out of it. And that's not to mention mental game goes into how well you react to mistakes, how well you deal with adversity, how well you can ride good waves of momentum as well, and within all of

those things, that's that's a significant part of golf. So if that part of the game can be sharp, then then it can take you a long way. I was curious when you did your world record of was it two hundred and seven parts of ten feet? Yeah, did you have any you know, kind of facts if you remember back then, like any doubt set were coming up, like can you really do this or things like that, and how did you overcome that if that happened during that time, Yeah,

definitely. So that was my third attempt. My previous two attempts, I think on the first run I maybe made seven. Second run, I think I got two about forty and so obviously in the world record I think was one hundred and thirty six at that point, So previous two times, I obviously I didn't make it there. But then I thought it's rather than trying to see it as me get into forty eighty one thirty just seeing in cycles of ten, and then when I got to ten, I just started again

at one and then kept on going. So again we're talking about the mental side of it. That just really helped to keep me quite present and not to get too far ahead, and also to keep everything very manageable. That I was never on one hundred and thirty seventh part to break the record. I was aware that it was one hundred thirty seven pot, but it was more in my mind that it was just the seventh part of that particular cycle. So that that helped to kind of keep me in a better place mentally

in order to achieve that. And then, um, that was it really And there were a couple of pots which looked like they were missing but went in. And you always need those good breaks here and there with that's an a round of golf, or with that's it in a ten foot part. So um, that was that was pretty much some of the keys to it.

When you were in that experience or when you have one, have you ever felt like being in what we call the zone where things kind of like are quiet or maybe slow down, or just you enter into and maybe an

altered space where it seems so easy. That's a great question. Um. I think when when a lot of players perform well, they do experience that that kind of feeling because it's almost or for me anyway, it's almost like nothing else is really going on outside of that present moment and that present shot.

But you almost have to enter a state like that to be able to focus on all of the things you need to in order to pull off that given shot in order to to really perform, because if any of the other things start to enter your mind and you don't use them as fuel and use them in the right way, it can very quickly derail you. And that can translate itself into a misshot or a mispart or a bad run of holes, which can end your chances of winning a tournament. So yeah, to

answer your questions, it's happened a few times. It'd be nice if that happened a little bit more. And I think we will strive for that and we will try and do our best in order to enter that state. And that's where it's such a mix of physical and mental because if the physical parts are in a good place, if you're well rested, always give yourself that chance for everything to fall in line, and then the mental side can really come up because it's you've got a great game to work on on top of

that week. So it really is trying to take care of the whole picture. And that's a battle that I think a lot of golfers constantly face on a week to week basis. But when we do get it right, that that feeling is pretty cool. And then when that translates into achievement or winning

a tournament, then obviously that's very special. If you ever experience any like kind of doubts when you're adding or shipping or driving, and it's so like, how do you kind of address that kind of you know, shift it in that sense, it's a great question and that that can happen a number of times, and it does happen to me a number of times in the past, and it will happen now, and it will happen in the future.

I think for me it sounds very cliche, but having a good routine, having when I say a good routine timing that is quite similar where the body just falls into a bit of a flow where those doubts can come to mind. But when you're working at a good time, everything just seems to flow a little bit better, and hopefully the body coordinates itself a little bit

better to override the doubt that comes into mind. And then on top of that, just having a couple of key thoughts that are very simple within this wing, and if the doubts come to the forefront of the mind, to just try and replace those with a key thought. And I hope that between the key thought and good timing of the body, that the doubt can hopefully

be overcome. And that isn't always the case, but I think that that gives certainly gives me the best chance of overcoming those doubts, because I do

have them. Do you ever consider that the doubts are actually trying to help you succeed, and that they're coming up at a time when you're on the pinnacle of more success, either in that shot or that or that whole in that round, And it's just almost a test to see, we're checking to see your resolve in how much you believe in the success you're about to have.

That's a great question, and I think you're right, I think, and it's in those periods where you begin to push some of your own limits, and you come through those, you learn if you don't come through those, again, they're a great they're a great learning process. It is It is definitely a test of your resolve and a test of how much you truly believe in yourself. But I also think it comes down to self awareness as

well, because there are times when doubt can actually be your friend. When you may be taken on a shot that is a little bit risky and the swing is feeling a little bit ropey, and the doubt creeps up to go, actually, what are you doing here, Let's be a little bit smarter, Let's just step away from this and let's rethink. So I believe it does come back to the self awareness that when is that doubt actually helping you? When is it giving you a signpost to say, hey, let's let's

step back, or when is that doubt trying to limit you? And in both examples they adapt, But in one example it's working with you, the other example it's not. And I think differentiating between the two requires a self awareness and then trying to react in the correct way then requires putting that into action. So I guess you've just got to try and read this situation and

read yourself to the best of your ability. You beautifully explain that. I feel because a sense, that kind of mental inner talk is actually different those two versions of that they are. Yeah, Yes, you have a very unique cultural background. I wonder do you that help you at all playing golf. Do you pull from any of your cultural you know, kind of strains or history or things of that nature, Tom, I guess feel stronger or more confident or things like that on the course. Yeah, I would say

so. I think that is probably a natural part for most people that we rely on some of our past experiences and how we've learned in order to try and help us in the future. And I come from the UK, but from an Indian family, again very cliche, but a lot of hard work in the family and discipline and also faith in God and believing in a higher power than things happen for a reason, and that those those are some very big things which which have shaped me and continue to shape me. Yes.

And have you had that kind of experience where you, let's say, you call on that faith up God or the divine when you're playing and you've felt something kind of takeover in a positive way or like kind of help you or things like that. Does that ever happen, Yeah, yeah, it has. Whether that is simply belief or whether that is a higher power. I think I believe in one of those two things. But yeah, I've definitely experienced that in the past. And again it's as we were talking about before,

in terms of getting in that zone. Maybe that is part of it. That it's just a feeling of peace and being at one with whatever it is that we're doing in that present moment. Whether that is hitting a shot, whether that is walking down the fairway, or whether that is getting groceries from from a store. These are things that are about life and peace and

just the interconnectingness of all things really. So I've definitely experienced that in the past, and i think ironically that's something that I'm trying to be a bit more wary of of implementing in my life now because it is there. But it's also something that maybe hasn't been as much in the forefront as what it was in the past for me. So it's quite interesting actually talking about this now because it's it's something that I've I've thought of a lot over the last

couple of weeks. Really, Yeah, that's interesting. He loved your questions.

Clearly he loved what you were asking him, and even when you ask him about the doubts, he laughed, yeah, yeah, And you know, it's I just find it fascinating because this came out this process that I shared with people, kind of gotten unearthed through my own process myself reread and being a musician traveling the world and performing percussion and drums, is the doubts are the same, you know they you know for a golfer, as a

musician, as a businessperson, as a basketball player. They may say different words because of the world you're in, but the essence I have found it's, you know, it doesn't and it doesn't matter whether where someone from America or someone from Japan and speak another language. Because of working with people from all over the world, I have found it's like the doubts are there's a process, and it's just kind of a thing innate in all of us.

And as I said, it's it's an exciting, beautiful thing when you look at it from the place I look at it, rather than a place of something to be afraid of or something to just try to brush over. We're going to take another break, and when we come back, we'll finish up with more little tidbits and advice from Stewart Sync, and that's going to be run after this. Now, before we get to more of Stewart's SYNC, tell me about my golf Quiz dot com. Ah, my Golf Quiz dot

com. This is a sixty second mental game quiz that I put together. It's it's a very very powerful. In this matter of sixty seconds, you will be determined on what level your golf game is at your mental game, and then you'll get a special report based on the level of what you answer, how you answered, and in the report there's suggestions and helpful tips, and I've gotten golfers have written back to me quite a number of times.

It's say Carrie, just just the information and the special report has helped me, you know, lower you know, my golf game, you know, in terms of I've been able to puts that I and consecutively that I haven't been able to do before. And it's just I love it, you know, because this is I just love helping people out, you know, I love open golfers out and it's um yeah, So Mike Golf quiz dot Com. All right, please check that out. Now let's go to back to

Stuart's sink. Your conversation with Stewart's sink. We have three or four, so just shorter cuts with him, but you're the first one we're going to listen to. Is when you asked him about courses that he either dreads or

favors. Has there been a course that you've played that has challenged you mentally and that you almost look forward to to play again because it has been a challenge for you and you've seen a success you've overcome certain of those challenges, and you've felt that really kind of joy, you know, of transforming that the early part of my career, the first couple of times I've played Memorial,

which is the Columbus Ohioway Jack nichols A tournament. Is I remember my first couple of times just feeling like this course is so hard, like around the greens it's so penal, and just being amazed at the scorers players shot there. And then over time I started to understand how the severity of the surrounding areas around the greens was really there not to punish you, but to kind of like be your guide, and so I started seeing it differently as

opposed to be like afraid of like what if my ball goes there? I started sort of like letting the course tell me, like, Okay, you don't want your ball to be in there, So what is that saying. That's saying, let's move the target over here a little bit and take your medicine. And I saw players that I played with too have success by not taking on every flag. And that's actually the way Jack Nichols played golf.

You know, he designed that course exactly the way he plays golf. And so over the years, Memorial became one of my tournaments I loved playing and that I had a lot of goods. Never won it yet, but I had a lot of good success playing there. So that's definitely one example. Another example right here, Sony, because we've been back at most of us that live back East have been in you know, kind of marginal weather and not being able to play a lot of golf courses that have good green grass

and healthy rough and win. And this course pretty narrow, so you come out here and you've got to really be on top of your game. So it's taught me a lot about how to start the year, and also how to accept the fact that you can do all you want to prepare for a shot and hit the right club and hit your target line and everything. A lot of good drives here don't end up in the fairway, and the rough can be pretty gross here. So it kind of I like playing here first

in the year if I'm not in Maui. Obviously Mauie's awesome, but if I'm not in MAUI like this year. If I'm not in the century, then I like playing here at Sony because it takes you from like midwinter to midsummer almost right away, and it's got to it gets your mental game kind of ramped up faster than playing other places. I'll tell you the takeaway from me on that one was don't let it punish you. Let it be your guide. How often are we like, oh, I hate this whole because

I'm hitting in the water all the time. All right, If you do let that be your guide and approach it differently, love that I do too. It was beautiful and he said that point. Yeah, We're gonna do two back to back here. The first one is going to be about the goals that he had for twenty twenty three, but then he talks about intention and will follow it up with intention not on the year, but intention for

your shots. So again Stuarts sink. Goals and intentions are tricky because a lot of them tend to be attached to results, which, going back to what I said a second ago, you really can't control a lot of So you'd like to have goals and intentions that you can control. But at the

same time, what would those be? So um instead of instead of using like finishes in the FedEx Cup or making the Tour Championship or having wins like that as goals, this is something that drives my wife crazy, is that I never use those kind of things as goals, those results were ented things.

Instead I use things more like my goal will be too. I have a set number of drills I do and putting you know, with my coach that I kind of say, all right, I'm gonna do that twice a week, and that's a goal, and I know that if I do it, it's not always the succeeding in the drills as much as it is the

doing them. Just do them. If I do that set of what I said, I'm gonna do every every week or every you know, whatever time frame I put on that, if I do that, then there's no chance I'm not going to improve because I trust that I'm working on the right things and I'm good coaching. My team's excellent. So um, those are the kind of goals I like to use that you know, maybe driver ball speed, you know, I try to get my ball speed up to a certain

where I can cruise at a certain speed. That stuff you can control, a lot of stuff you can't control. So when I hear players say, like, my goals this year are you know, I want to have at least six top tens, I'm like, hey, you know, that's great, But a lot of that just depends so much on other things. A lot of varieties. You are, a variety of factors you can't control. So but I think what you're asking is, this is the Christmas and things.

Give me breaking the center of the season, kind of give you a set and reset those goals. Yes, and no, I mean no, And the fact that I start the season back before, like in September, and I kind of I want to have a big enough data set where I can say the goals I did were either matched or they did work or they need to rely on someone, And we don't have enough terminus on our belt yet, even though it's been a while we hadn't had We've had like eight

straight weeks of no golf, so we don't have enough data points. So this time of year you can't really do a lot of of adjusting. But in my case, issuear, I'm about turn fifty and so I've got the Champions Tour tournaments out there that I'll be eligible for, and I will be deciding, you know, which ones of those I'm going to play in, and if any which ones I'm gonna playing out here. And there's a lot to play for out here on the PGA Tour, and so my goals this

year are still more oriented towards PGA Tour golf. And you're so you can dance back and forth between the two toys. I could, Yeah, yeah, I could, but that's not really been proven to be a real successful route to go for anybody to bounce back and forth. It's been more like you've got to commit one way or the other. Yeah, it's like in a sense a different gear, you know, Yeah, because so well you know, you you know, play you two points to count. Yes,

it's all about points. If you play on this tour and your points count, and you play on this tour the next week and your points count over here, Yes, they're not counting both places. You could say I hope this goes right at that bush, probably not gonna end up being a successful shot, right, Or you could say I'm gonna take this ball straight. You know, you can kind of state like this is what's about to happen. It leaves really no room for anything else. Yes, Um, absolutely

I choose I'm choosing. Yeah, there's something very fascinating though when we speak that way to our mind, it's almost as then you swing and you hit and make contact with the ball and then it goes there. It's almost like did that happen? Right? But it's but it's due to that intention, Like you know that subco when you say what you're going to do, what you're choosing to do, that's an active statement of like I'm in control and you're keeping your agency. Yes, and um, I just feel like it

automatically excuses you from, um, a mistake being made. You're you're gonna make plenty of physical errors out here. You know you're not gonna hit all your drives and your iron shots and everything exactly one too. It's not gonna happen. If you can be willing to accept all those and eliminate all those other errors that you just feed yourself, like the hoping and the wishing and the needing, then yeah, you're gonna give yourself a better chance to succeed.

And that's in the end, really what it's all about. You can't control all of once you make contact with all, you can't control much else, and so um our job out of here, My job and that guy and all the caddies and the coaches and the players. The job really boils down to accepting the percentages and keeping your expectations in the proper frame and then trying to improve like one percent, you know, yes percent. Yes, you're not trying to make every twenty footer because then if you did that,

you'd be disappointed most of the time. But you can try to make thirteen percent of those instead of twelve and a half over the year. That makes sense. I think that's a Kobe Bryant thing about one percent, like that was something to just improve a little bit each time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's amazing, amazing, is right. I love the idea of I don't want to make every twenty footer because then I'll be disappointed all the time when I don't. Okay, just keeping your realities in check, I'll

take that twenty foot though not every time. The most of the time, he really he really opens up to I just find this so fascinating. He really enjoyed talking to you, and and oh god, we enjoy eavesdropping on it. Yeah, I do too. I just it's kind of funny every and just kind of you know, kind of being really candid. Here. I go to these events, you know, I go to this event. I have I have a sense of who I'd like to interview, um, but I have no idea if any of those are going to happen or how

it's going to happen. And I've seen my own doubts through this process, just trying to get interviews, and it's like, you know, the voices, dude, you're not gonna get anybody, and you know you're gonna you know it's not gonna happen here. And I go, oh, thank you, I turned it around. Oh that means this is gonna work out great. And then there's a process that I've shared a little bit here today to

how to deal with it. And it turns out it's you know, I generally, you know, when I look back at the list that of the guys I want to interview, and then after the events, you know, my time there is over. It's like, oh yeah, you know, I got just about everyone or everyone that I was looking for, you know it. And yet there's no I can't force that to happen, but I can intentionalize it. And that's a powerful thing, amazing, you know what.

I'm going to take one more break and then we're gonna come back. We got three or four more from Stuart Sink and we'll be back after this. This week on Golf Smarter Mulligan's is Part two with Catherine Roberts if Yoga for Golfers. In this episode, Catherine provides a variety of pre and post shot round stretching routines that are specifically designed for golfers. She even provides a

story that maybe all too familiar with some of our greatest fears. I had a client and his name was Jim, and he was sixty seven years old. He had retired his whole life with golf and he had backpain that was so bad he could not play, and that doctor told him, forget it, you're never going to play golf again. So you can imagine he became very depressed. His social structure kind of fell apart because his life was playing

golf. And so he was referred to me by someone and I just did some very simple evaluations, physical evaluations, and I said, Jim, I said, here are seven to ten things I want you to do four days a week, fifteen minutes. No more, don't even do more. And in three months he was back playing golf. That's Golf's Murder Mulligan's episode one

hundred ninety nine, Part two with Catherine Roberts of Yoga for Golfers. Please subscribe for free to our sister podcast that revisits the best of the Golf Smarter podcast called Golf Smarter Mulligans, being released every Friday from wherever you're listening right now. One of the last things that you and Stewart talked about. There's a couple more topics here, but one of them is about debriefing. It's like, you know, we talk about post shot routine, post round routine,

or debriefing. This is the conversation you had with him about that.

It's quick, but it's fascinating. One thing I've started doing, and I started this about five years ago, is whenever I have those little debriefs like that, which is, you know, I would say anywhere from like a formal debrief like with Reagan caddion too, very informal, just like thinking about it when I'm in the shower, right, But I always try to take little notes down, and so in my yards book, I always have it written down, a little list of things in the back of my yardsment,

like right there, you know, and just little things like where do you get your piece? You know, like it's a question that we all have to kind of ask ourselves, and very few really ever do. But if I'm standing over a drive and I feel the wind blow in a certain direction, the shot feels uncomfortable. Am I getting my piece from where that golf

ball goes? I hope not. But that's really easy to do. And so little notes like that, you know, just reminded myself to look at the cross and remember, like the people standing around the cross the crucifixion might have been thinking, this is like one of the worst things that's ever happened. How can this be? You know, how can God allow this? But what they didn't realize is that they were looking at the greatest things ever

happened towards the redemption of mankind. You know, things like that, like, oh, how can this ball bounce right into the bunker? Maybe I need to practice my favorite bunker shots. But that's one way that I kind of keep myself reminded. And it's not completely you know, full proof. I mean, there's a reason I have to debrief every day, and we all should ask ourselves, and very few do wise wise wise, Yeah, and yet if we do, when we start doing it, it's only going

to improve it. You know. It's kind of like the pus, right, like of an infection. You know, if we if we go after that pus and let it you know, and yeah, when we pop it, uh, it's it gets a little messy, but then you know, we apply whatever we need to after that on the pus and the infection goes away and it heals up. It's a similar kind of idea. You know,

it's touching the pus. So the things we don't want to do, but the you know, my question is do you want to just would you rather deal with that or would you rather have the same consecutive challenge keep keep coming after you day after day, year after year. That's a question of us has to ask. One of the things that came out in that last cut was his faith and the importance of it. And you know, like you mentioned you were a professional musician, but to bring it back to music

and he takes it back to his faith. Do you use music as a way to kind of get you revbed up at all? Oh my gosh, I used music as a way to get my heart in the right place. Man, not rebbed up. If anything rev down, I'm already rebbed up. And usually the reason I'm rebbed up it is because I'm like hoping for results or maybe a little bit fearful about what might happen. And so I have a great playlist of Christian music that I listened to all the time.

It's just such a solid reminder of gratitude, and you know where my heart ought to be. And yeah, and how significant I really am out here playing golf. You know, I sometimes overinflate my significance out here, like I think we all do. I interpret that is when you feel that connection to the divine or God like I imagine, like there's that oneness that golf is sid of the way in that moment for you to make that connection.

Yeah. Web Simpson's wife one time told Lisa when we play together, something like, it's great the boys get to worship together today. And that was this least ten or twelve years ago, and from that point on, I remember thinking, you know what, this is a way to worship because I understand that golf, being the golfer that I am and playing at these high levels, it's teaching me things about myself that I would have never known otherwise.

And it's just such an opportunity to be grateful and to learn about yourself and to keep yourself in the right perspective, you know, with your relationship with God. And so she said it, she said it great, and ever since then I've treated it that way. I noticed that when I don't treat it that way, I'm not near as happy on the course. And I want to be happy. You know. I love playing golf and I love what offers me. It's way more than just a job for me,

because I'm just so fortunate and blessed that I can do this job. You know, it's such a fun thing to do and such a challenging, personally challenging job to to continue to, you know, try to do every year. But such a blessing too that I get to, you know, I

get to do something that's taught me so much. People feeling, you know, And I watched it just today, watching you just talking the course of you know, and just how you are with people, and I'm sure they are feeling that too, and they may not expand it, you know, but they would feel it. Yeah. Well, that's part of the purpose

out here, you know. I worked with a guy for a couple of years back about five years ago, and he kind of put me through like his curriculum, Jim Murphy was his name, and one of the things that he had me to do right at the beginning is to define a purpose. And I think I probably don't need to explain to you, but it wasn't

my purpose to shoot sixty five every day. And we kind of defined the purpose for me, and I got it straight from the lyric of one of the songs I like to listen to, and it was like, my purpose was to let this world know me by your love, by meaning the love

of Jesus Christ. I want the world to see me and say, like, there's something about that guy, and when they investigate that, I want them to see Jesus Christ and his love and I want the love for him that I feel to overflow and to get onto the other people that are near me. That I think is what you see if you watch me play. I like volunteers. You know. Yeah, there's some moments when the volunteers

are annoying, but who isn't. I'm sure I annoy the volunteer sometime too, but no, I just like to I like to try to be that way out there all the time. And that purpose has been something that I try to walk with every day. And it seems to kind of lessen the bad scores and also it kind of lessens the good scores too, which kind of good for me. You know. I like to stay even and not get too up or two down, and when if there's credit due ever, you know, I like to use it as worship. The Church of Golf

is an evangelistic golfer. Yeah, I love that idea of over inflate our own significance. And for professional athletes who have been praised and followed and clawed at for most of their lives, especially if they're lade athletes early on. Yeah, I'm sure that most professional athletes over inflate their own significance. Yeah, and keeping it perspective has got to be really hard, for sure. But that humility and that driving humility can create that the honest passion to keep

improving, you know, help you stay humble. Right now, you couldn't hold back. He still needed to ask about his mental coaches because you might be looking for gigs. I don't know, but you're asking Stewart Sink about his metal coaches. Let's see what he has to say. The last guy I worked with was that guy Jim Murphy. I work with him. He has a curriculum that I kind of outran the curriculum, and we stayed together longer than his curriculum lasted. So when we stopped working. There's a guy

that he was here too. You may have seen him if you were here yesterday. James Sekman. He's a guy working with a short game and putting and he is like really strong in that area too. But he's not really a fully trained sports psychologist. But he's really good for me because he knows me real well, and he knows where I get wayward, and he knows where I'm really sharp and good. So he's a good reminder all the time, asking me questions and he kind of parrots back the questions that I have

for myself, and he knows my lists. So I kind of have given some of that to him, just to more as a reminder of past, you know, material that I've learned. Interestingly, James Siekman as been on Golf smarter Um back in twenty fifteen episode four eighty six. We he had just come out with a book and so we had him on, so I

know of his work. Comment yeah, anything, but yeah, I'm definitely going to check that podcast out that pipe for sure, And don't know if it's still available for free on you know, because the episodes that disappear that's in the right, that's like the four eighty six is kind of out of the realm of where we are, and we're getting up into the three hundreds now with Mulligan's. So if there's only two hundred and fifty or so episodes

available on iTunes, I don't know. At Apple Podcasts, I don't know if that's available but it will be at some point we'll bring it back and maybe we'll even find James Sekman and bring him back on the show. Yeah. Um, let's wrap it up here with Stewart sink one more with him, and I love the fact that you asked him about if he had any advice for amateur play and for amateurs on dealing with doubt. I remember my

first about my third or fourth year on tour. I had some early success, like I came out of the gates like boot, and I'm like, now what do I do? And I felt like a lot of worry because I didn't feel like I was quite ready to jump into that role he had of a top player in the world and you know, making all the Rider Cups and President Cup teams. And I had to do some searching. And that's why I really actually kind of got interested in the whole psychology of sport.

So and then you know it kind of beloved. It's just rode a wave ever since then. Sometimes the the doubts and the fears are strong, and I have to really work really hard. And as I've gotten older, I probably matured out of some of them, you know, And I don't sweat what I used to sweat, but I do sweat things I didn't used to sweat, so um, I wouldn't say it's lessened. But it's just

a constant, you know. It's a moving target a little bit. But that's part of the reason I love plays, because I'm always having to. Yeah, it's like whack a mole. Yes, yes, yeah. And what would you suggest for let's say, the weekend golfer to help their mental game stay strong. Just depends on the player, And that's a sorry answer. But the expectation level is usually not where it ought to be. Sometimes

players have low expectations. They shouldn't. They should have like some high expectations, you know, and then a lot of times it's the other way around. But it just depends on what you want out of golf. It just depends what you want out of golf. You can raise your expectations. It's okay, I love it, Yeah, I love please do actually exactly exactly talk about Champion yig dot com. Sure. Champion dot com is my website to check out about the mental game and focus a lot on golfers, but

also other athletes too. So if this has been interesting for you, check it out. Let me know what you think. It's been interesting for me, Kerrie. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you sharing this. You going out and doing it first of all, but then you're sharing it with us. Can we pretty much have an exclusive on this content? And I hope you get to use it some other place, just not another podcast,

please, Okay? For sure. We briefly talked about last year you were getting involved in this project where you were narrating some audio books and I remember the name Kobe Bryant coming up. What's happened with that? Well, I'd love to share about with Kobe as well as some of the other books that have happened. Really, yes, yes, it's it's unbelievably exciting for

me just personally to be part of these projects. What's happened is Saint Martin Press is publishing a series of books called Life Lessons from a Legend, and Kobe's was the first one, and so I've been given against the great opportunity to narrate and produce the audiobook version of the book. Toward sink talking about one percent, that's a Kobe thing. He was all after just improving a

little bit each and every day. But you know, it's just like when Kobe was playing, everyone knew where to find him on the basketball court, you know, wherever he practiced. If you knew Kobe, that's where you'd find him. He was just constantly, you know, improving himself. And and you know, when asked about all of his championships and what was really how he wanted to be looked at as his legacy, you know, and this was before the unfortunate passing of him, he was saying, no,

it's not about the championships that I want people to remember. I want people to remember that you have the ability to improve and if you go after that and again this one percent, a little bit each and every day, you're going to get to where you want to go. And that that really touched me. And his book was profound. I didn't expect it to be as

deeply moving to me personally, but it was. And it really takes a huge arc from his beginnings, his time growing up in Italy, coming back to the States, you know, joining the Lakers, and the whole history of his journey. The event that happened in Colorado and him you know, that really shifted his life and it was what I got from the book.

It was like that moment he really realized his actions matter, his actions affect people, and he almost lost his relationship with his wife, but he he got to a point fret, which I just love is that he was like, hey, I got a fight for this relationship, just like I don't know the exact piece, but it was a classical piano piece by heart while he was on the road playing, like to to show to his wife like I made a mistake and I'm sorry, but you are my person and you

know it was. It's an incredible thing to what he what he did, and who he was. And so I was very, as I said,

very touched to do this audiobook. And then the cool thing with this series, I've been also been able to interview the authors of each book and I'll share what the books are in a moment here and to hear about their mental process and like what it was like for these authors to write the books on these guys, and what kind of research they did, and how do they decided on what to include a one not to include amazing and what other books?

All Right, So, so the next one was on Michael Jordan's Wow, and then The third one came out last year on Lebron called Life Lessons from the King, and I'm super excited this year. Later in the year, two books are going to be coming out, one on Tom Brady called Brady Life Lessons from a Legend, and then the next one at the end

of the year will be on Steph Curry. And you know, and just you know, the the the ability to to just you know, be in the studio recording these books and really thinking about these guys is again human beings. Like again, like I just love the mental game on all areas, so it comes into my thinking and realize, like the challenges like Lebron, like when he I forget what it was like fourth grade. He his mom just was, you know, unfortunately in a financial situation moving from one place

to another. He missed like a ton of days in school that year.

And then like you know, the basketball people in that community saw him and like said, we got to help this guy and you know, get him focused, and they did, and it was like, you know, when he was in fifth grade, he was starting to like coach the younger players, and you know, and just the humanity of what you know, we we often think of these people as just you know, they're athletes, their stars, they're you know, you know, they're just amazing, and the

reality is they're human beings and they go through the same challenges. And then I question, like, you know, like Steph Curry right now, like you know, the challenges he has faced, the injuries, and you know, and the team the Warriors to come back and to you know, and and to to have that faith, have that belief, like you know, Clay Thompson after being down for so long, it wasn't pretty. He talks about it, how dark it was at times, you know, in terms

of his doubts, his mental games. So I just think there's so much to be taken from as golfers about like all these other great athletes, to glean to improve you know, our game of golf. Incredible. So you didn't have any input on the content of those books. You just did the audio, You did the narrator correct, Yeah, okay, Okay, again they all sound amazing, and I just want to say thank you once again. This has been a very long episode, but very productive and insightful.

Carrie, Thanks so much again for coming back on the show. Fred Aloha, and thank you for having me say goodbye to my dog because she's clearly wanting to get out of here. She's had enough of this. That's why I had to leave earlier because we started to have a ring storm. My dog was outside, so I was like, oh, I gotta get her in. Well, thanks again, just loved having bad thing here. Many many blessings, Fred, Let's stay in touch, and just I applaud you

for your success and continuity of commitment to all of this. So right on, Bred. As I mentioned during our conversation, I've been watching Full Swing, the Netflix docuseries that takes an inside look at various players on the PGA tour. I'm really enjoying it and was definitely intrigued with the second episode that focuses on struggling Brooks Kepka. Congratulations are in order because it is really great

television. What I truly loved about this episode is that we get an inside portrait of a broken man, one who has lost his game because of injury and mental fatigue and is trying and failing to find it again. I found it so relatable for all of us to learn from, as we did in today's show that as good as these guys are they still struggle with the same

kind of issues we have obviously, just at a different level. There are eight episodes in the series, and last night I watched as PGA Tour everyman Joel Damon insists that he's not good enough to win a major and isn't driven by being on top of the tour. Well, he cut my eye last year because he wears big brim hats most of the time. I'ven't reached out to him last year to discuss why he doesn't wear baseball caps, but never heard from him, probably because he was being followed by a film crew.

So anyway, check it out. Let me know what you think of Full Swing. It's on Netflix. I want to thank Loretta Maddie of Castro Valley here in the Bay Area. As she mentioned she was turned on to golf

Smarter from another ambassador. We heard from Jen Shaw because they're both in the Bay Area as am I. We have plans to play together this spring and I'm really looking forward to it. Loretta has selected to receive a glove and glove storage compartment from Red Rooster golf dot com, the unique glove subscription service that offers many styles of gloves in twenty six sizes. You two can win a golf Smarter gift and have a choice of which you'd prefer. And here's

all you have to do. To send me an email golf Smarter Podcast at gmail dot com and request our simple instructions to leave a voicemail at the toll free line, and when you do, you can choose a dozen balls with the golf Smarter logo from Odin Golf, the golf brand that sponsors and pays everyday golfers. These tour quality balls are a fraction of the price of what you usually pay, and when you use the code golf Smarter check out,

you'll receive an additional twenty percent off your order. Their link is in today's show notes. Now you don't have to pick the balls. You can also have the option to receive a private online link to Tony Manzoni's video of the Lost Fundamental And your third choice is that new glove and glove storage compartment from Red Rooster golf dot com. So please send an email and I'll get back

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