If we go specifically to our type of architecture, we are creating a dialogue from not only in the micro, from that particular golf hole that you're playing, but also in the macro what we like to call a carousel of emotions. It's an eighteen chapter book where it has a plot, the rising action. We like to design with all of that in mind. So when you're
playing one hole, it creates a dialogue with your strategy. But when when you're playing the whole golf course, it's going to have these emotional up and downs. It's not only the story of a golf hole Part three, Part four, Part five, heroic strategic penal, It's what the whole storyline of playing one through eighteen is also going to tell you. WELLO, this is Roys Kassoff from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I play golf McCall Golf Club. This
is Golf Smarter, Episode nine thirty six. Course design should take the golfer through a carousel of emotions with architect Doggy Pie Saw. This is Golf Smarter sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf Smarter Podcast Oggy. Hello Fred, excited to be here, as always, great to see you. Great to have you back.
It's been almost exactly a year since the last time you were on, and we learned so much from you. I just couldn't wait to do this again. Was looking at your website. What is the Pisa effect? Oh, well, the pizza piece I effect is something that we like to call of when we have a saying in our in our in our practice, which is the passion begins when you live the experience. So when you when you sign up with us for us said to do to do, to work together in
collaboration with with with a giving development. We believe, we firmly and strongly believe that you that that our clients uh live an experience, a unique experience throughout the process of of of of design. So it's not just the turning in the end product it is it is about the journey. It is about the the the piside effect, which which uh you know, gives you that
opportunity to to live to uh to live your passion. So the passion begins, uh when you live the experience with Okay, well, thank you for correcting me on how to pronounce it. That's yeah, it has a little line on the A, so it's but I know, I mean I understand that that that when it so it's pisa when it gets anglicizes, Hey, what's pizza. We're not. We're not. We're not as good as a pizza. There's only one z. Not too, but we're trying. We're
trying for that. So as a golf course architect, and and I love to try to get into the head of golf course architects. As an amateur golfer, I don't think that we appreciate what an architect does and how we as amateur golfers can take advantage of it when we step up to the first t what we should be looking at, how we should be looking at it. And I would love to be able to use the language of an our
course architect. Well, that's a that's that's a good one, Fred, because at the end, I mean, it's not an intention to add to your swing thoughts. Now, definitely we have enough already, especially as it as you know, as us amateurs going out there, it's like we're already thinking of sixty read things to think about what just on our backs league? So but but I would I would say this, it all depends where you're playing for it because it depends on who was involved, who designed it,
uh and to what intention. It all depends on on the why. And that is something again going back to the pside effect to to this process. It is it starts with the why. So the first thing you need to understand as an as a golfer out there on the first T is, am I playing a player's course. Am I playing a resort course? Am I playing a parkland course, am I playing a public course, am I playing got a private all of these? That's the first thing that we need to
understand. Okay, So when you're out there saying, oh this was very easy and very very very you know it doesn't have a lot of character. Well, maybe maybe it's a resort course that is designed for the super average golf for to break one hundred. Yes, if it's a player's course, then it's going to ask you for some shots. It's going to be designed completely different. A TEPC sawgrass, a you know, a private golf community
where where they're handicapped. Their average handicap could be twelve, a player's course, country club or a resort where you know it's you expect people to be a twenty six twenty eight to come in and play the course. So that's the first thing that we need to find out is what are you play in order to at least critique it or try and and decipher what you should be
out there looking at. So once your once you find that out, then then you can look at different features, different aspects, angles of attack, et cetera. And as we know, golf course up a A well designed golf course should be played or planned from backwards. Yes, where you want your first shot to land in regards to the second, in relationship to the flag. Uh So it depends on to what level you want to take it.
But the first thing that I would recommend is to find out what are you playing and what was the intention of that design and before you go off and critique and uh any any any designer. But when you say, you know, go start from the back and forward, you're talking about start your view from from the green, from the green going back to the t. Yes, if you if you're out there on the first t or you're out there at the clubhouse trying to decipher the golf you know what the what the
the architect is trying to communicate with you. Look at the golf course from the back to the front. You know, if you're if you were, if if if it's a short part for and you're and you're, you know, your go to yardage is Okay, where should I put my driver or my initial shot so that I can I can I can have that area around one forty five and I have my money shot at one forty five to hit
that green. So if I hit if it's like I said, if it's a short part four of three fifty three seventy five, uh, and you hit a nice driver, then you're going to be that then you're gonna say
you git a two hundred and fifty yard driver. You're at one hundred and fifty, So that's your that's your that's your perfect point for a four hundred yard But if it's a three hundred and fifty, three hundred and seventy yard part four, then then maybe you should you should tee off with the three wood if your money shot is at one forty three or if you're you know those are I mean, there's a million combinations, but It all depends on
your game, on the on the person's game. And once you're at that level of of golf where you know your game and you know what your money shot is and you're you're confident and you're you're there and you know you're gonna you're gonna flush it and that ball is gonna hit like a dart on the green. That's that's why I mean that you should or you can plan at that level. You can plan to to to to to play the golf course from the from the green to the tee so that you know exactly where you
want your ball for your money shot. Part five, the same thing. Par five. Okay, my money shot is one twenty, So where what does it take to put my ball in two shots at that one twenty Because I know that I'm going to hit a dart there from that one twenty on
money and I can burdy this thing. So you know, if you're if you're just just hitting it to and just you know, thinking, just thinking, hey, just landing on the fairway, fair enough, But in order to take your golf to the next level in reading the golf course, that's what you should do. That's what I recommend because you're going to have creaks, you're going to have bunkering. If you have a proper design, you
should always read it from the back to the front. And it's that second shot that we're setting up that where the challenge really begins or does it really begin at the T box? No, it should begin. I mean if we if we go specifically to our type of architecture, we're we are creating a dialogue from not not only not only in the micro, from that particular golf hole that you're playing, but also in the macro with what we'd like to call our treasure maps. We're going to be you're going to be on
whole number one. Then then then we create what in uh, you know, a band, a musical band would say, this is our set list for the for our concert tonight. How's that going to change? Well, it depends on if we're if we're you know, what are we going to play tonight? So it's the same. They're gonna take you in a in what we like to call a carousel of emotions. So they're gonna take you.
They're gonna start either with a bang, or they're gonna start softly, or they're gonna whatever they they are going to manipulate, per se the audience. It's it's something similar that we like to do with our golf courses. From one to eighteen. It's an eighteen chapter book per se or a nice you know, or or or a nice play or a nice uh you know, theater, or or where it has a plot, the rising action, the so you we we like to design with all of that in mind.
So when you're play in one hole, it creates a dialogue with your strategy. But when when you're playing the whole golf course, it's gonna have these up and downs, emotional up up and downs. At some point we're going to take a shot off of you. We're going to really challenge you. But maybe the third hole it's going to be like, oh hey, it's wide open, it's there for the taking, there's no bunkers. If I don't score here, then you know, it's it's it's you know, we
can't do much about that one. So but that's how we like to decide. It's not only the story within the frame of a golf hole. Part three, Part four, Part five, Heroic Strategic Penal. It's it's it's what the whole storyline of playing one through eighteen is also going to tell you, Oh my gosh, I have so many more questions just based on that answer, and we're going to deal with that, but I need to take a break. We'll be back right after this. Now I'm really concerned.
I'm where am I going to go with because I had so many questions that I wanted to ask you about. But let's let's keep talking about when you're designing for amateur play. Okay, but do holes get more complicated in design? You know, like where where do you want to put your number one handicap or your number eighteen handicap which is supposed to tell the golfer when they're looking at their scorecard, Oh, this is going to be the most difficult
hole on the course. Is your number one and or if you're on the other side, it's number two, could be even. I don't know how do they decide which one's one through the odd numbers on which ones are the even numbers? But in your design, how do you determine Is it the geography that dictates what is going to be your number one and your number eighteen handicap holes? Yes, well, there's a lot of factors. But the brief is the number one. What are we going to what do we want
to achieve? Again, is it a players course, is it a resort course, is it a members course? What's the average handicap? All of that? Okay, So it just all depends. And so when you say a player's course, that means, of course you're designing that's going to be on the tour. It could be on the tour, I mean not necessarily because that all depends on the on the client and there you know, what they want to create for their for their for their project. But it means
that it's going to challenge a player. It means that we are designing for the not necessarily for the for the top players in the world. And now that could be in the proof like what happened at TPC Sargress. You know, hey, we want to we want we want to challenge the top players in the world. Then that's what Pete I did very fantastically well on that course. Uh And but that was a brief, that's what he was. He was there to try and make the player's life miserable in that in that
particular time. So and it's worked to perfection it's one of the most intriguing uh non majors sad to say out there. So, but it's a terrific it's a terrific course. So it all depends on on what are the needs
of the of the place. Because if you're looking at now, let's say that we do create a world class tournament, Now it's a different ballgame because now we have to create areas for television, for for for the uh for all the everything that goes to bringing a huge production of hospitalities uh et cetera, merchantes et cetera, et cetera, merchandising, et cetera. Yes, so that that's a whole different ballgame. Now. Course at that at the
regular level that we're talking about, is is a challenging course. Uh, it's a it's a character course. It's it's a long course and uh. But but obviously you know and for made for for players, so you're not going to be able to spray it. If you don't, if you don't hit one hundred and twenty feet wide uh land the areas, then then then you're it's not a it's not a golf course made for that for that golf When you said intriguing. Did you mean from Uh, let me ask it
this way. Whose perspective are you talking about when you say intriguing, Well, well, you we like to we like to design for the end user in mind. And that is having the brief, the projections, the the business plan, everything set, the market, et cetera, et cetera, everything set, so that we can come and interpret that and create the best golf development for that brief. So that is the that is the the the the important aspect of of of anything you create. I mean, I'm not
inventing anything. This is if you want to build your house, you need you need you need to uh to be in in good terms with the with the wife, because we we're gonna be there. You know, what do you want? What do you need? What are your needs? Uh? What would you like? How would you like the house to flow? Oh? I like this, Well I want my man cave right here in the in the in the center. Well put it over there in the garage.
I mean, just with that. If you if you're not in symphony with and if there's no uh you know, centered synchronicity synergy with that in that aspect, then we're just there kind of like going, okay, so what do we want? This is going to take a while before we have a plan when anybody. Yeah, but obviously we come in and and suggest and gives our you know, sometimes we have those projects where it's, hey,
what do you guys recommend? What do you see here? Well, we see this, we see that, but let's let's address this side to make sure that we're in the right direction and we we will create that uh that creative you know, the why for the client as well. Okay, what
do you think the percentage of your clients. I I'm not going to talk about the industry, but if your clients come and say, I want a player's course and I want this to eventually I would love for this to be on the tour, that for us on the tour you not always you sometimes let's say, let's say that two out of ten golf courses that you're kind of like, you know, visualizing and creating the visual aspect and and the why it is it is like, hey, we are open for for some
sort of tour either either I mean this could be all the way from the WGC, uh all the way down or what was the WGC. Either World Golf Championship just as an example, or even the lack the you know, the Latin American Amateur Championship or stuff like that, and for for our Latin American for our Project Star in Latin America. They sometimes they do think of, hey, I would love to host that lack. Well, I mean these guys they're amateurs, but they they I mean that the distance now from
from that level to the tour level, it's college level. It's it's it's been uh, it's getting closer. It's getting closer. That's what That's what's been happening in the past, in the past probably seven to ten years, that that gap is not as you see more amateurs making the cuts. You see more amateurs I mean mature. But we just won this year, and so that gap is getting closer. It's not like it's the amateur and let him participate. No, he's there to he's there to compete. And that's
that's the beauty of what's happening. One of the beauties that that that's what's happening in golfering, or at least in competitive golf. Well, as we learned last week our guests John Marshall is I think was John Marshall who was talking about how the gap between a scratch golfer and an eighteen handicap is closer than scratch golf to a tour player. Well, that's yeah, that's a different perspective. That's another Would you agree with that? I mean, especially
from your personetive facts. But if I had to to to bet on that, I would put out I would say yes. Okay, I would say yes because I I can go out right now and play with the scratch golfer, a regular street scratch golf like a buddy of mine. That's that's zero or whatever, right, because I you know, at the at the end, it's it's there. It's their indexes zero zero, zero, zero, whatever it is. But but you know that you can go out there and
they're going to still make a lot of mistakes. You're gonna have fun, et cetera, et cetera. And the problem is with the scratch golfers that think that they can be in the tour. And that's the problem when you have that attitude mixed. I'm like, man, come on, man, just to just to try and qualify, you need to be a plus six like on on a regular like a consistent basis, you need to be a plus six, So don't give me that that your club. Definitely, definitely
the scratch golfer to the level of the tour player. I believe that it's longer than the than the than the than the the other one that you mentioned on a regular eighteen handicap. Well, I mean, like, uh, I have a single digit index, but I also play a slope of you know, one twenty five two in there, and you put me on a course that's got a slope of a one thirty three, one thirty five, I'm shooting in the nineties. And that's why I play the white tees.
Yes, I don't. I don't see a reason to make golf any harder than it already is. So we know, so well, sure I'll play the white teas well. You know it's golf. Golf is one of the one of the oldest ways to to commit masochism in the world. So I'll watch it. So hey, we you know it's it's just it's it's a full on suffering out there. We love to suffer. We love we love it out there. And uh, I still have to I still have to meet fred a golfer that is happy with their golf game at any level,
at any love. I've known one. I had a barber. I had a barber who said, oh yeah, I'm a good golfer. I've never met another businesses Yep, I'm a good golfer. Rest is soul? All right, another time out, we'll be right back. Last time that we talked, you introduced a concept that I was absolutely blown out by in the butterfly design. Can you give us an update on that? Explain it first for those who didn't get to chance to hear it last time, and also
any updates. Yes, I love it, well, thanks for asking, freend Yes, we are. We've been described as concept creators, so it's not the only concept that we have designed. I've been creating concepts, you know, since twenty seventeen that I think that we've we've really created a lot of concepts that are now known. But I've the butterfly golf is a four loop of nine. So just imagine a butterfly, you know, body, where the center is the body of the butterfly, where the center of gravity.
The four loops come back to that center of gravity. So when you're playing an eighteen whole golf course, you only need three of the wings, you know, because there's three loops of six and there's always one that's free.
So with that said, if you can create all sorts of combinations that are really permutations, because you don't care where whole number one is, so it's if it's one through six on each one to add eighteen, you can play you know, a root A Let's say that the roots are A, B and C and D. So you can play A B and C, and then a C and B, and then a B and D and then a C and D, A D and c H there for each for each
letter there's six different combinations. So you're playing twenty four combination. So to cut a long story short, it is in twenty four days that you could be there on this resort or whatever. In twenty four days, you will not repeat the same routing, and you will be able to play an eighteen hole, par seventy, par seventy one, or par seventy two, depending on the combination that you've played. And six holes will always be open to
social gatherings or or you know, conventions, et cetera. And also this is a kind of like a school yard for all sorts of levels because joining the inside of this of this concept design, it's also we take you know, for SI, there will be six holes that are catered to beginners, you know, like like ten year olds, eight year old, six year olds that have their extra tee and that and that have that strategy just for them. But obviously you can use it on a like on a regular golf
course. But these are things that we are thinking of creating. In one of our projects. Another six would be catered to the uh, you know, the best female golfers. Yes, that speaking of second shots, that's where the situation, that's where the problem is. It's not just cutting the t box to to to whatever yardage is. It's it's what's their angle of of trajectory and attack on the green when they're one hundred and eighty yards away or two twenty on a short part five. Uh, that's the difference in
that angle from the from the gentleman players to the female players. There it's a it's it's there's a lot of change in the trajectory of the ball. So the golf course needs to be designed in a different way to catch or to attract or to lure these players into going for it, and and and and getting it on the green. Uh. So all of these things is what we factor in to betterfly golf. I don't want to I don't know how deep you want to go into this, but I think that this is
I have an explanatory video. Now you're gonna send it to you and maybe maybe maybe it can be part of the addition. Oh yeah, no, I'll definitely link to it. We'll definitely link to it on the on the show notes, no question. So does I just love the idea because I've always loved the idea of round, you know, six hole increments versus nine hole increments, and so it makes so much sense. And then by adding that fourth loop, I would think that the maintenance people would absolutely love this
concept because that is another thing. It's for maintenance. Uh, it's it's for experimenting, if you want it's maintenance. It's uh, it's that if
you're conscious of time, you can play. If you're there for a week, you you can play six sols, you know, for days, and you'll you'll play a different hole obviously you can depending on operations because this all depends on on on how busy the day is or the or the or the season is, but you would be able to operate, you know, having a nine hole loop, a twelve hole loop, a six hole loop,
and so all of that can be mixed. It's a multi multi use area that that would depend on the on on what what what you and your customers want to want to live as an experience in in the in the butterfly golf and when it work with this concept, you hope work for any type of course, resort players, membership, yes, and you can even you can even mix it nuch and if you want to get let's say that if you
want to practice if it depends on who you you cater for. But maybe let's say that this butter that let's say that a butterfly concept is in is in Palm Beach, or in Florida or where you know that Arizona where you know that a lot of professional players live. I mean we we can create this as I mean, one wing can be a resort, the other wing
can be you know tour player, female tour players. The other wing can be as the male tour players and really challenge each each sixes and then there's a complete eighteen hole golf course where you'll have the different experiences of how a golf course is played. So yes, we can mix and match and and and cater for the necessities of of of that particular project or your end your
end consumer. And you know you mentioned Florida and Arizona, which mostly we're talking about level land flat land, especially Florida, right, but here I live in northern California. There's a lot of ventulation everywhere. You're familiar with it. You live in California San Diego as well. It's not just flat. Would this concept be adaptable in areas that aren't just a level course?
Yes, of course. It all depends on the land whenever you have and that happens on every on every level, even designing a regular eighteen old golf course. When you when you see the land, when the land is there, and let's say that you have let's say that that there's like, oh, we have a five hundred acre piece of land. Oh, it sounds
beautiful, But how's the topography. If the topography is like this, then you don't have a five hundred piece of land, because you know, half of it is counts as the as the as the sheer drops and ups, and so the only thing you can use are the top parts or the middle or the valley parts, but that at the end of the day, we
have one hundred and eighty acres to play with, you know. So it depends if if you have if you have whatever, five hundred acres in Florida, usually you can use them all unless you're on wetland and stuff like that. Then you have like sixty percent wetland, Well you're not going to use that as well, you know. So it depends on environmental It depends on
your on your topography, a relationship. Those are the two things that are going to dictate at the end how much land you really have to play with. So yeah, it depends like here in California, let's say that over there up where we live in this I mean, you know that there's a lot of us ups and downs and everything. So if the it would probably be a bigger on paper, we would probably have a bigger land. But
it's not necessarily a bigger one. It's just it's just that the topo map reads five hundred acres, but you can only use two hundred, Yeah, because the other ones are impossible to go in or there, or they're part of of a park of a national forest or so all of that starts increasing decreasing your piece of land, especially if if if you're if you want to do things right and uh and and not you know, not disturbs the important important areas in nature, right I have in mind, of course that I'm
sure many people have not played h Tpcdune Sante Bay in Mexico in the retto, which kind of snakes through the mountains. I mean there's a couple of level holes there side by side, but mostly it's snaking through mountain areas. So, yes, that was it. That was a beautiful layout by Rhys Jones. Yeah, beautiful layout. And then you come up over the top on number seventeen and you're out there at the Sea of Cortez and it's like wow, yeah, this is breath tanking. Yeah. And anyone else ever
had a chance go to this cold of course? Yes, yes, please, yeah. And it's playable. I mean it's halfway halfway from San Diego to Cabo right, so but on the eastern inside, on the inside of the Sea of Court. Beautiful place. I love that place. That's why we became member owners in that time share. Nice good, Yeah, No, I love that place. So tell me as far as the butterfly design, what's the reaction been and are there any in design and operation? Where
are we with it? Not yet in operation, but yes, it's it's uh and thank you for asking. I'm not going to be able to disclose on this show anyway yet. But we do have our first one, this
one, I wouldn't worry about that. I love it. So so we do have three on the on on paper and that should and will begin construction this year twenty twenty four and uh in twenty twenty five, and uh so we're very proud of that because you know, and it's it's it's kind of funny, but this is how things work, and this is how creativity is up there in the air. Great ideas are up there in the air. If you're in the right frequency with the right sensitivity, you it's just you
can bring down the ideas. I mean, so it's it's it was hard to believe when we first came up with this concept of the four loops of six. And you know that loops of six is not a is not a secret. Three loops of six is not a secret. But it's not done. Years in five hundred years of golf's existence, nobody thought of four loops of six and the and the combinations that you have right right. So it's been it's been great. It's been a great. When we pitched this to
our to our clients, it's they love it. If they have land, they go for it. And I've told them, if you have the land, I would never design another eight hole golf course again. I mean, let's go for the twenty four because more is less. I mean, you do six holes more, but you're not going to invest ever in a twenty seven or a thirty six golf complex because you don't need to. Yes, right, you have twenty four golf courses right here now, unless you're going
to build twenty thousand houses. That's a different we're going to have a different volume. But for a regular volume, for a regular master planned community, resort, master planned community or something like that, you're going to have fifty seventy one hundred rounds a day. It's more than plenty, more than plenty. And it's a great solution. You can come out of the twenty seven
whole layout, thirty six who layout. You know, it's better for the environment, better for water, better for space, it gives you, it gives you, you know, still a very good housing development. But but you you you know, for for for water usage, for all of that. It is. It is a great example of sustainability as well. All right, one more break. We'll be back in sixty seconds. For a normal Uh, let's just say there's a housing development being made and they're going
to have five hundred homes. I don't know what a housing development is. They want to put a golf course in there. How much land do you need for the golf course, the practice area, the driving range, what? What is what's required? Generally? I know can't be because it can range. Yeah, they do whatever, And it depends on the on the
on the type of on the use of land that you have. If you go go vertical, you know, for a golf course, we're gonna need we're gonna need one hundred and eighty two hundred let's just round up the numbers. Two hundred acres, okay, So and that's the land. That doesn't mean that the golf course is going to to be there. Maybe for the golf course, just for the grass, you're gonna you're gonna grasp one hundred
acres. I don't know. I'm just just to round up numbers. So if you use two hundred half of it, per se will be grassed. Okay, now this is don't take this literally. This is just an exercise for for for for whoever's listening, maybe maybe my grandma is something else, Just kidding, So just just to round up some numbers. So that's just the lot that we need for safety precautions. So those that's the quarridor that you need to you know, to uh to save the housing development from from
having that many golf hold balls hit or et cetera. You're always going to have that that that uh, you know, percentage of balls that are that that go outside the corridors. We we all know that we all have been there, so windy day, more windy, et cetera, that's gonna happen. So with that in mind, that's what you need for a regular eighteen
old championship. That includes the driving rains and and short game facility, and and and cutting green clubhouse and marking love not in as No, that's different. That's just just a golf corridor of everything that has to do with golf. Okay, yes, but you still need the back of the house.
You still need your maintenance facility, you still need your your clubhouse. I don't know if your clubhouse is going to be twenty thousand square feet or two or or two hundred square feet or or or two hundred thousand square feet. Why because I don't know if you're going to need a convention center. I don't know if you're going to do weddings or not. So all of that factors in right. That's why you can't really say, ah, it includes
this, because what's again, what's the brief? What what what are we doing this for? We're doing this for for to host a PGA show every year in Orlando. Well, then then your clubhouse, convention center is is going to be We're going to need more land. So all we're going to we're going to cater for a PGA tour, Well, then we're going to
need more land because we need hospitality, we need all the trailers. I mean there's I don't know how many trailers there are out there, you know, but every time I'm touring a you know, a or I'm in some sort of a tour event, there's fifty trailers out there. I mean, you know, from television to equipment to bah blah, so that parking lot and then the regular parking so that changes again. So when you ask,
I mean, what is what is? What is that? What are we catering for at the end of the day, But for the golf course, that's what you need and then the rest. Then what are we doing? Multi housing development? One family home development vertical? We can go to thirty thirty stories thirty story building because we're right close to the city. I don't
know, so that that all depends. The important thing is to come up with that good factor of housing per golf per rounds so that we know that we're doing the right thing in regards to the business plan and we have a successful project for our clients. So I'm not going to ask you to be specific about anything, and if I if you can't even answer these questions, don't. But I'm just curious about the people that have shown interest and will
be developing a butterfly type type golf course. Is it the United States? Yes, one in Europe, one in the United States, and one in Mexico. Wow, can you give a state in the United States? Can't even go that? Okay, then I'm done with that yet. Not yet. That's what I do. So you can you can invite me back in it. Oh I can't wait. No, no, no, no, I love I love having you on because you really help you put things in
perspective overall. Have you had uh pitches to to potential clients and you gave them this idea and they're like, no, yeah, well luckily we don't get the silly thing. Uh. We raise eyebrows and that's good, that's good. But they're thinking, but it's not. But it's not in the in the format, you know, it's not in the format. It's like no, you know, we we we we're a little bit more conservative. We want the eight old golf course fair enough, perfect or maybe sometimes we're
doing a short game facility. You know, we're working with a top tequila brand right now that that we're going to do their their short game cool sexy. Uh you know, part three course short, part three course in their hacienda for tequila, one of the top producers in tequila in the world. That you're going to love that one. But I can't disclose it the Navy yet. But those things that we love to do, those things that we
love to do that that also comes in the equation. So just to try and answer your question on a to maybe in another in another perspective, with another view. We're very lucky right now, Fred that that clients that call us, they call us because they want something unique. They call us because they're looking for something cool, something sexy, something original, something that's that's a little bit you know, out there, but still respecting the integrity of
the game. So that's where we're at. That's our sweet spot right there. We do we can do traditional, yes, we love it. Yes, but clients right now are calling us because of our of our unique approach. So that's pretty cool too. That's very cool. Congratulations. If we could be the friend, if we could be the with all due respect to Frank Getty, if we could be the Frank Getty of golf, I'm in yeah, I would think so, I would think. So tell me about
Wellness Golf. I also saw on your website you had Wellness Golf. Yes, that is one of our concepts. That is our less is More collection and that is you know, something that we created seven years ago now, twenty seventeen, where we started. I created a list of uh in in our in our design studio, We're like, okay, what is golf. Everybody's talking about growing the game, nobody's doing anything about it. What is
golf? That's that's and this was this was in twenty seventeen. Though so uh so, well, golf is intimidating, it's time consuming, it's judgmental, it's uh, it's it's it's land consuming, resource consuming. List. Okay, what can we do to counter that list? So let's create a concept that's going to call wellness golf. We're going to take invite people to take their shoes off, to connect with nature, to forget about the slope, to forget about the rating, to just play primitive golf. And that's
that's that's what we talked about. Primitive golf. You find the ball, you find the club, Let's go play horse, let's have fun, let's connect with nature. There's nothing, there's no scorecard, there's nothing out there. It's a it's a it's a short game area, short game facility where depending on the on the project, we created one hundred and eighty yard shots
or sixty yard shot shots. But but the important thing is for you or for us to to to to to you know, to connect with nature, to forget about golf as we know it, uh at that time and uh and and it's great. I mean that that is that is what we call wellness golf. Is those types of of projects that have been luckily picking up
and that and that you can see now all over the place. Not not that we not not because of us, but funny enough, you know, the Cradle was was was born at the same time as the as chub Let wellness uh wellness wellness golf and many that we were doing. And we and I didn't know that that that that the Cradle was going on. So so it's pretty cool that that you know, it's it's the again at that uh, that creative those creative waves were out there in the universe just and and
we were thinking, you know, doing some something different out there. So are there places that I can ask Now, it's like, can we go out and see that? Yes, of course you can go out and see it. On on in La Pause down in the Baja, we created a special place inside an area where there's an existing Gary Player course, the only Gary Player signature course in Mexico. You can play that, which is another gem out there in the Baja and in in twelve acres. We created a
short game facility wellness golf course that is that it's great. I'll send you some pictures. And also in Many the Yucatan and the Yucatan Peninsula, in one of the most important and best resort spy resorts in the world, we have another wellness golf there and we created a golf lounge the pit, which you've probably seen. And we're working on special projects right now, very original and unique, which I'll soon send you some pictures as well. Well.
I'm a huge fan of Mexico. I have had heated debates with people about Mexico versus Hawaii, and I feel like I win every time. So now we know that there's actually great golf there too. Yes, that also competes with Hawaii, especially if we're talking about these wellness golf resorts, that it's golf that you can take your family, because that was the whole point, you know, time restrictions, et cetera. I mean, these are designed
to play in ninety minutes. So if you're there with your with your significant other and they're at the spa for ninety minutes or a couple of hours, nobody's going to miss you. When you're out there on the golf course for ninety minutes. That's the whole point. Part of the point is that these trips that you can take to these specific concepts, nobody's going to miss you for ninety minutes. Perfect, perfect, Augie is so great to talk to
you again. It's pias A Golf Pack Golf and it's p i z a g o lf dot com to learn more about their design and everything that he's doing. The innovation is off the charts when it comes to golf course architecture. Thank you, sir, appreciate appreciate it, and any any Instagram followers at PISA Golf and we're there interacts, send us some questions and where we're on it. Thank you very much. Fred really appreciate it. Well.
I have a great story about this week's Golf Smarter Ambassador, Royce Cossoff from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he plays at McCall Golf Club. Royce is a longtime listener who even wrote a very kind review for Golf Smarter on Apple Podcasts back in twenty seventeen. But more in interestingly, Royce was so taken by hearing Jim Waldron on the podcast that he actually flew out west to Portland, Oregon to take two days of one on one lessons with Jim. And that's
after doing Zoom lessons with Jim for three years. So then Royce wrote and said about his time face to face with Jim, quote absolutely life changing. Empty your mind and listen to everything he says and you will be saved. Wow. And that's why we have Jim on regularly. And now Royce is officially a Golf Smarter ambassador. Well why don't you become one of our ambassadors.
Then you can take advantage of getting a free gift. If you aren't comfortable recording a show opening and that's been said to me, that's fine, But there's another way to get a choice of these three great gifts. Just leave the review for Golf Smarter, like Royce did, wherever you listen. Then send me the text of the review you wrote and where you wrote it. Or like Royce, you can record an episode opening on your phone or on our toll free listener line. I'm trying to make it so easy for
you. Then you can choose one of those gifts, which includes Tony Manzoni's video of the Lost Fundamental Royce took advantage of the glove and glove storage compartment from redroostergolf dot com. And your third choice is an eight pack of Flightpathgolf tees at flightpathgolf dot com. Just write me directly with your review or request to do a show opening, and I'll send you some simple instructions on how
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