How I like to put it is that the low handicap, the higher skilled golfer, I want him to think and then execute, and the higher handicap I wanted to execute and then think. So that's more or less the language that I emphasize on when I'm designing a more challenging golf course. And if you go all the way to Muni's, usually you have a very strict piece
of land. That's where you have your freeway golf. Usually you know the whole number one, whole number two, whole number three, whole number four, five, six, seven eight, because of the area that you're usually confronted with, So you're working on a hundred acres maybe, so you've got to fit everything perfectly. A lot of golf courses from the fifties and the
sixties are that way as well. So that's something I mean in Muni you have to be very creative, which is pretty cool as well, because you have this piece of land, you have all these restrictions and what are you going to do with him? Hi? This is Tom Tom from Delphi, India. Anna enjoy playing golf multiple courses around the Delphi era. This is gold number eight eight seven Butterfly Golf maybe the future of sustainable golf course design.
With creator Aggie Piece, this is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf mines to help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast. Aggie. Thank you very much, Fred, pleasure to be here. It's great to have you on. I love talking to golf course architects.
I just as a as a recreational golfer, as someone who does not play competitively, I like to know what's happening on a golf course, and I love hearing what golf course architects have to say because they're not generally they're not the greatest golfers all the time, and so they kind of designed for us, for the amateurs. Yes, I'm glad you understand that bit, and yes some yes, you're completely right. And not a lot of people
know that some of the greatest architects weren't the best players. I mean, you can start right off with Alistair mackenzie. He was just a great you know, just a great student of the game and h and of golf architecture of course, amazing and you know you have I know that you have a master's in golf course architecture. I've been reading on your bio. What does that entail? I'm fascinated by that. To go to school to learn golf
course architecture. Is that history? Is that gnomic? What elements are you are you studying? That's a very good question and I love that because yes, I was surprised as well a few years ago when I learned that this, you know, a master's degree specifically in golf course architecture exists or existed, and obviously it had to be in the cradle of golf Scotland. Yeah,
Edinburgh University. And this was in two thousand and one, two thousand and two when I started, you know, to look for what was next for me. I'm an architect by trade. I'm a vertical licensed architect by trade. And uh but I was I was in construction. My first six years seven years were dealing with construction, project management, etc. So that that was an advantage for me because I know the bones, the backbones and all the you know, the everything that goes underneath the skin of of golf.
So going back to your question, is I'm looking at you know, two thousand and one looking for either diploma courses, master's degree, what else is out there? Because I knew that. I mean, at that time, anyway, celebrity golf designers were at its peak, you know, eighties, all nineties and the beginning of two thousand. Celebrity golf designers were at their peak. So it was like, Hey, I'm not gonna win a main journeytime soon. I'm not going to hit a green jacket unless I go
buy it in uh somewhere. I'm not gonna get an ice green jacket like that, you know, So one of them I need to go study. I need to go follow the footsteps of the the you know, the the students of the game. So I found this master's degree. I was like, Holly Moley, I have to do this. I applied at the end that we didn't know, but I think there was like one hundred and ten
applicants. Eleven of us from different parts of the world got in. It was part of the EIGCA European Institute of Golf Course Architects, which is the equivalent of the American Society of Golf Course Architects, and it was just an amazing experience I was very lucky to get in. I sold by everything, my toaster, everything, and I'm like, let's go to that sunny Scottish weather, a great accent that I'm going to understand and and and just have
fun doing my master's degree. So that's what I did. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Tijuana. I grew up in Tijuana. And by your expression, yes, regular people grow up in Tijuana to Fred, so, no, I understand that. No, I have no problem with Tijuana. I just don't know that. I don't know how much golf exists in Tijuana. I know that you are an adventurer and uh and you've been to the Bajan You've been to a lot of places in the world.
So I admire that about you, which is great. That adventure side. I love it as well. So my point is that, yes, you know, being a growing up in Tijuana, I did not grow up as a as a golfer, but I did grow up in the Tijuana Country Club. And you will be surprised Fred, what I'm going to tell you that Tijuana Country Club when it first started in the nineteen thirties, early late twenties,
early thirties of last century. It was the biggest uh It was called aguacaient Golf Club and it had the biggest purse of the PGA tourback I mean Saracen. It was playing here, Bobby Jones was playing here, Ben Hogan played here, and it was the biggest, the largest purse. At that time. Vegas did not exist. There was there was the Prohibition era. So we had in Tijuana, the casinos, the country Club, the Caesar Salad. That was the year they the era where Caesar salad was invented in
Tijuana. So we were living at large in tj and then and then the country club became or the Aguaca eventually became the country Club that we now know as the Tijuana Country Club. So there is a very good history. It's a Billy Bell design and if you go back, I mean that's that's part of the of our Cali Baja Cali Golden Age of golf architecture from San Francisco down to Tijuana. That's part of that generation of golf courses. So it's
it's very rich in history. You'll be surprised, that's what I was going to tell you. Oh, I am shocked, and but wait a minute, I got to back up here. Caesar salad was invented in Tijuana.
Yes, come on, really, salad was invented in Tijuana. That's hilarities in the early thirties at the restaurants called was called Caesar's or Caesar School was the place where it was invented years ago, where you had all these celebrities coming down to have fun in Tijuana because they couldn't do it elsewhere in California or the States. So, uh so Tijuana from this side, I mean you could Cuba on the other side was also living living at large as well
on the other side before yeah, we know happened. Happened, uh in the fifties. But growing up, you know, in Probition era, Tijuana was a fantastic point of entertainment and leisure. And I'll stop there. Of of of a lot of celebrities, you'll stop at the leisure party. I'll tell you my favorite part of Tijuana and one of the most memorable for me in the times that i've been there. Highlight, Oh highlight, that highlight
is how's that building? How's the other of that building? Gorgeous? Okay, So that we had that casino to match the High Ali, Caesar's Hotel, the casino that matched. I mean, we had the racetrack where um, uh there's a Disney movie. I think that that that space here that uh it's raced one of the racist is in Tijuana. So we we we have that rich history in golf, which unfortunately we do not embrace. Uh and me growing up, going back to your question, my brother and I
growing up in Tijuana at the country club. We played every sport except for golf. And but it was right there and uh, and that's how I grew up. I played every sport. I'm I'm a I'm a fan, and I grew up in sports. My family, Uh, you know comes from pe teaching and uh. Yeah, so so we grew up in in sports all of our life. From my grandfather. This is another funny story, h or or a cool story for me. My my great uncle was
the the stuntman for the Black and White Uh wise Wheeler's Tarzan. Uh. He was the first met Can to swim across the English Channel in nineteen fifty three, swimming. Of course, he did it twice because the first time his friends didn't believe him. He thought it was a fluke. They gave him a hard time that I has a fluke, and so he did it twice and then he became a you know, a type of celebrity and uh and uh and so we come from that beside side of of sports culture in
our family. When I grow up, I'm you know, I'm curious, I'm I'm inventive. I don't know, I'm a destroyer at the house, you know, baking up stuff and and uh so I knew that I wanted to become an architect since I was eleven years old in fifth grade elementary. More or less, I knew without hesitation that I wanted to become an architect. And and when I when I studied architecture, uh now, it was like, how do I mix sports with architects? That was my first thought.
I mean, I need to mix my my two passions sports in architecture. Okay, maybe I'll do stadiums. I'm a dieheart Charger fan living in in in Tijuana where Padres and Chargers don't look at me that way. That's just that's I'm just saying, I'm sorry they left a lottery. Chargers left. Nowers left, but I'm still I'm still a Charger fan, even though I mean, they're only an hour and a half away from you, right, So so anyway, we we. That's when I started to think,
Okay, maybe I can do stadiums. Maybe I can do you know whatever, country clubs, parks. I had no idea until I graduated. And I played a little when I was when I was younger, just out in the country club. But I wanted contact sports. I wanted to get dirty. I played football all my life, I played tennis, I played everything, basketball, blah blah. So I uh, when I graduated, I couldn't play all these sports anymore because there's no leagues. They just you start
playing. And so I decided to get back to golf. I said, now it's the time for golf. Yeah, and now I go back. I'm twenty three, twenty four, twenty four years old. I dusting off my golf clubs. I'm still a member because you can be a member till you're twenty eight if you're not married. So I went to practice every day. So at that time, I had a conversation and enlightened conversation with a
dear friend of mine who got me into golf course architecture. And that's the time that, you know, I got enlightened and he was nice enough to introduce me to Paragon Jack Nicholas Construction Company. They were creating golf courses in Mexico and Palmidia and El Dorado down in Cabbo, and that was my first gig. And the rest is history. That here we are chatting away, Fred amazing. Well, I was able like you. I was able to take my two passions of audio production, you know, came from radio and
golf and created this podcast. Now I'm in my eighteenth year of doing it. So thank you and I and thank you very much for inviting me to your podcast because I love the name. By the way, Oh thank you, thank you. I appreciate it. Let's take a time out. I promise we will talk about golf course architecture. But I have a feeling that Aggie and I are going to be going all over the place on this one. But we're gonna take a time out and we'll figure it out. We'll
be right back. Unfortunately, the last time I was in Ti Johanna was I think it was twenty fifteen. My wife and I had gone down to Cabo for a week of relaxation and didn't realize that the rain that they had said was coming was actually a hurricane. And we were, oh, yeah, we were in a hurricane, o'deal. Oh yeah, yeah, it was a that was a good one. And um, we'd only we'd only been in town for like twenty four hours and they and we were going out
to lunch. Um, and they said, Okay, where are you going? And like I beg your pardon, like, yeah, where are you going right now? Said, well, we have lunch reservations. We're going out. They said be back by two o'clock. It's like, why do you want us back by two o'clock. It's like, because that's when the hurricanes get hit. Shelter we had, we had and we had to move our room. We had an ocean view room. They moved us back to the back of the building. Um. And it was horrendous. It was
horrifying. It was horrifying. Yeah, and we were there after it happened. We were there. We were stuck, no water, no power for three days. And finally we were airlifted out and they said they didn't check passports, they didn't look at your luggage nothing. They said, you want to go to Cancoon Tijouana or Guadalajara, and we're like, uh, Tijuana. They went, okay, go get on that plane, and luckily we
got on the plane. They dropped us off in Tijuana. We had to walk across the border and then my son drove down from La and picked us up. Actually, we took a bus to the border. They dropped us off there. Then they he picked us up in San Diego. Nope, that was the bus from Tijuana when we crossed the border into San Diego and then he two o'clock in the morning he picked us up in San Diego and drove us back to La Hurricanes and Cobo, no, because they don't.
It was like the first time in forty plus years that had happened. Yes, and now it's happening like every five years. It's kind of crazy in Cabo, if you know, don't. I don't know if everybody that's that's listening or or viewing this, but Cabo is in the tip of the peninsula of whole California and then Baja California and its southern tip and hurricane Southern Tip and hurricanes that which start down in Central America and come up through Acapulco Portovayata,
Mazatlan start opening up right right towards Cabo. It's right in the in the middle of the highway of Hurricane Highway one oh one, that's Cabo. So it is. It is tough whenever you see a hurricane, usually for travelers out there. I mean hurricane season is going to begin in the real hurricane season September October. Watch out for those two months. Just be aware.
The good thing is that you have like five days of of of of heads start heads up where you can change your flight or do what I thought. It was just going to be shot. Yeah, you should have stopped in Tijuana. I'd had the it was the middle of the night. Um and you also mentioned the palmia down in Uhbo. I have played. I was a beautiful it didn't you? Did you design that coutimental favorite? No? I did not. That's the Jack Nicholas yea. But I was working
for his construction Cocaine, so I was. That was my first gig, Fred was make sure that all of the labor guys had cold water in their jugs. That was my first gig. So how was my job just to run around the site putting ice and putting water in the in the five gallon jugs or whatever. And then from where I started working my way up and is it until I project managed the job eventually, and yeah, it was.
Is it three nines? Isn't that it's three nine? Yea that's involved in the I was involved in the Ocean nine, the last one, Ocean nine, and then and then because of another hurricane I forget it was in East season. I forget the other hurricane. It was in two thousand, ninety ninety nine or ninety eighth ninety nine, we went back to the other nines to revamp it because there was another hurricane coming in that year. So so that was my first gig, and then I had participated as well in
the Lolo and overall, I've been very lucky. I've been involved in five golf courses in Cabo during my career. So I love that place. It's a very special place for me, and it's our mecca of golf. It's the mecca of golf on our side of the world in Latin America. Well, the time that I played there, i'd played the front nine and I said, oh, I'm just gonna go grab a sandwich, and they said, you know what, here's what we want you to do. There's a
threesome just going teeing off on the second nine over there. Just go join them. We'll bring you the sandwich. I'm like, great, no problem. And one of the three people that they hooked me up with there was Jesse the Body Ventura, No, Ronnie Piper no and and so Jesse Ventura. He had already been the governor of Minnesota, and he was wearing a tank top. He had a beard, his beard was braided down to it, you know, I had a little braid sticking down. He had a
huge around his neck was a huge pewter marijuana leaf. I'll say it. I mean it's it was a long time ago. And I'm like, what's yeah, right, leg yeah, Like what are you doing? What are you doing here? And he says, well, actually I lived down here now because my wife she agreed there were two things that I wanted and she only agreed to one, which was I wanted to run for president and I wanted to be um. I wanted to live in Mexico. And she says,
if you don't run for president, I'll move to Mexico. So and he talked, he was so much fun. He told stories NonStop. Whether you were hitting, putting, it didn't matter. He was still talking. He had this little stogy of a guitar, the guitar of a cigar that he was chewing on that was just dripping down the side of his face. Totally entertained, totally entertained. I remember the Lucky I mean, I don't know how his political career was, but I remember him from his WWF.
Yeah, exactly, because I was going up. I was going up. I was I don't know. I was probably like fifteen fourteen years old at that time, so me and my little brother were always watching WWF. Yeah. Well, when we get off this call, tell you my story is about working with a WWF and hanging out with Randy Macho man Savage. It's it's a crazy story and one of my all time favorites. Let's talk about golf course architecture for a minute. Talk. We have to sure we do?
Um uh where do we begin? So? Okay, from a from a designer's point of view, speaking as an amateur golfer, what's the difference for you in design between a country club, a resort course, and a muni. Oh, there's there should be difference, and that is one of the most important things Fred. And the first thing that we do when we arrive with a new client with a new uh, either if it's if it's remodel or new, it's what is the why? Why are we here?
Why is everybody here? What is the purpose the purpose of the of what we're doing here? I mean for master planning to to Okay, we're going to master plan, and then what's it going to be. Is it going to be a pain plan, Is it going to be a country club, private, semi private? Is it a resort course? Everything? If you know what you're talking about, every single category should be designed different. Maybe a resort course, you would like you're thinking about people that are there once
a year, maybe for a week. They just want to break a hundred, friend, that's what they're there for. I just want to break a hundred. I'm gonna open a champagne. I'm gonna open a nice bottle of wine. I'm gonna have a nice dinner with my wife after I break a hundred on this course. That's what they're looking for. That's in an overall, you know perspective. Yes, So if you're in a country club is it private? What is the average of your membership? Is the average of
your membership sixty years old, then it's a different golf course. You can't create a bunker where it's easy to come in and then it's not easy to come out, you know, because you're they're gonna need a rope or they're gonna need some steps. So all of that and it's I know, it's it's it's funny, but not funny. It's kind of like you you see all these golf courses where we come and and reassess or remodel, and guys, what's what's the membership average here? You know, all of these bunkers
they look beautiful, but you need access. You need access, not on the way in the way it is easy the way out. So all of these when you say the average, you meant the average age, not the average scores, the average age, not the average not the average handy care for the average corn, the average age. So all of these things you take into account. But the number one thing is what's the purpose. What is the why are why are we in this room right now? What is
the purpose? And what is the business plan? Does it match? How can we now after we have those now, our experience, our studies are you know, criteria. Everything now blends in and now we can help you, okay, But if you do not have and sometimes we collaborate and cooperate as in we think that this golf course should do this. Yes we do it as well. But the more information that you have, the more professional minds, the better the think tank, the better the focus group, the
better the result. So what is what do you have in mind? Fred? That is the very important thing. And we insist in our to our clients because you know we're we're not we don't want to just we're not there to take the money. Where did it help? We're there to actually analyze this. Yes, I'm you know, how can we cure your golf course with maybe some makeup, maybe some botox and where it needs maybe it will
do surgery, but I would like to in a remodel. That's my Our approach is that maybe some holes will need a little bit of makeup, some holes will need a little bit of botox and some surgery. If it doesn't need surgery, then it doesn't need it. But you will only know if you know the purpose of the golf course. In two years. Where do they visualize yourself in two years or in ten or in twenty. So, yes, everything makes a difference, or it should anyway, do you know
what you're talking about? If you know what you're doing, Fred, every single objective will make us design the golf course differently fascinating. I want to take another time out and have more questions about getting from the client, your client to the consumer, and we'll be back right after this. Okay, So I understand. I completely understand as being a vendor, when I meet with a new client, it's like, who's your target audience? When I'm
creating new content for them? Who are you talking to? What are you talking to? But from the golfer's perspective, from the amateur, from the traveling golfer, from the local golfer, what can I take into consideration? Knowing? Okay, this course was designed as a as a country club meeting, I'm going to be playing here a lot, or like you said, with a resort course, I'm going to play here once a year, maybe
I'll play here just once. And then there's the munis who are you know, they're not dedicated to their their golf or they you know, like in Los Angeles, you have to belong to a country club because there's not a lot of public golf courses there, which is very frustrating, or you have to drive an hour plus to get to golf courses. So as the consumer, as the golf consumer and the recreational golfer, what is it that I
should understand about golf course architecture that is different between those three presentations. That's another good one, Fred, because first things, first things first, and it's I like how that you mention it. Because when we get with our client, we usually he's not our end he's not our end used right, yes, So when when we're with our client, he just wants his name
on it, He just wants to see his name in big letters. But but sometimes the golf design or the master plan we even have to save it from his opinion because he is not the end user. So you have to understand again, what's the brief, what is the business plan? Where? Where? What? Why are we doing this? What's the why? So I always kid around kidding, not kidding, it's like, hey, you know, mister X, you are not our client. You are the person
that writes the checks. Yes, and thank you for but our clients, our clients, you and I is the end user. We want the end user to be coming out of this golf experience with a big smile in their face. That's what we want. And if and and we're we're very we love to give to make business for our clients. That's a whole purpose.
So it's not for us. The ego has to stay outside the room when we're designing this for the purpose that that we want, which is you know, the making a sustainable golf course in the economic side, in the in the ecologic side, and the social aspect. So that is the first thing. So our end users and how as an end user, what what can you expect? This is another tricky one, friend, because not all golf courses are creative equal. Not all golf courses are have the maintenance budget.
Not all golf courses have the same ticket, the same experience, the same everything, which is part of the beauty of golf. Every golf course is different. So get you know, starting from there, I think number one, it's it's bear in mind where you're at. You know, if you're in a fifteen dollars MUTI, let's not over let's not exaggerate here, it's not gonna be us open conditions. Uh let's let's let's so, let's let's
first know where we're at. Yes, uh so. And again, if you're in a if you're in Prebble Beach, if you're in Tory Fines, if you're in Aviada. Here in San Diego, you're gonna expect, you know, every little flower to be blooming, and it's beautiful and everything. So I mean, very ample thing to talk about, Fred, But I would you know there there, I wouldn't really think a lot unless you know it is a very good designer and very well maintained. I think that you
can actually start appreciating this, appreciating the architecture. But but you know, it's it's very difficult to explain, to be honest, because expectations are are are hard, you know, it's that's the first point. Probably would my first tip would be don't expect anything and then try and read the golf course. But again, it depends on where you're at, so it's it's very
difficult. Okay, let me let me get into specifics then, because I really want to pursue this thought fair designing, fairways, country clubs, resorts, munies. What's the difference in the design of fairways for those three types of courses. Okay, for a resort, you're gonna want a wide landing area. Yeah, so usually a resort it can go all the way to three hundred feet of landing area. I mean, it's crazy. You can just spray it all over the place. And uh, but that's the whole
point. Remember, we want we want this guide to break one hundred. So let's give him this area, and then let's give them the nice rolling greens. Maybe there's some movement, but it's not gonna have you know, from from twenty feet or thirty feet, you're not gonna really move the ball a lot. Maybe it's one percent falling left to right, but it's not gonna wiggle itself a lot. So those are are are a few things. Obviously, bunker let's stay with fairways. I'll get to bunkers in a minute,
So let's stay with the fairways. Let's do it. You're gonna do an ample on a country club private, semi private. You're going to go a little bit of a more of a potential players course because you do want your to challenge your membership. And and yes, but again what is the overall uh, you know, average age of your membership, and in fifty years it's going to change. So if the if the country club did not create a good job of getting new membership, then then the golf course be
old as in as in bunker position, as in everything. And again the example of the bunkers that you can go in but then you can't come out, etc. So you also have to be very careful careful about that. So in in a country club, people are playing there multiple times a week, so you want it to be a little more challenging. That's where you want to create at If I'm designing a country club, I am thinking about mister, I'm thinking about about creating little nuisances that that that you're not that
you're going to discover eventually. I'm really thinking a completely different state of mind in design. I want you, I want you to really start discovering like a great painting, a great piece of art, work of art, that every time you see it, you discover something. Depend It doesn't matter of your of your handicap, your ability to play. Usually, how I like to put it is that the low handicap, the highly higher skilled golfer, I want him to think and then execute, and the higher handicap I wanted
to execute and then think. And then it's kind of like, oh, wait a minute, I could have done that. Yes, So so that's that's what that's more or less the language that I that I that I emphasize on when I when I'm designing a more challenging golf course. Now I do
it anyway on a resort. But but but that's just an example. And if you go all the way to Muni's, I mean usually just unless it's a super Muni, usually you have a very very you know, strict piece of land that where where you can't maybe do a lot of dog legs.
So that's where you have your freeway golf. Usually you know the whole number one, whole number two, whole number three, whole number four, five, six, seven, eight, because of the of the of the air confronted with exactly so you're working on a hundred acres maybe, so you got to fit everything uh perfectly. Uh. And that's and that's those that's the
model of the old country clubs. But then you would have to go back to history and then you know, after after the Great depression and uh and then the economic boom comes up, uh late early fifties, and that's that's where everybody wanted a golf course. So you had you wanted to produce a quick golf course, and a lot of golf courses from the fifties and the
sixties are that way as well. So uh uh that's that's something I mean in Muni, you you have to you have to be very creative, which which is pretty cool as well, because you have this piece of land, you have all these restrictions, and what are you going to do with them? So I think all going back to the beginning of this chat, Fred, it's like, what are you going to do again? What's the brief?
What can we do in California? You're going to have less acres of grass than in other places, all these challenges you need to really take into account. Now, how we like to design is that we like to take if you if you look at this two D. Let's look at the two D. First, you're in a in a in a sheet of paper with all this topography and all these uh you know, constraints or advantages or whatever
the soft analysis you come up with. And then I like to see it as first it's an experience of creating a treasure man, let's create this treasure mare. You have this beautiful piece of land, because all pieces of land could be beautiful if you look at it that way. So what are we going to enhance? What are we going to create? We want to create this as an adventure, as a treasure map. We want to take the golfer exploring. Come back to that corner, come back to this level,
go up to that level. See this rock, see this tree, see the ocean, see the mountains, see the desert, all of this. You want to create a treasure map in the routing. The routing is one of the most important things that you're going to get. Not everybody's a good router, but the routing is number one. It's part of the secret. How is the orientation, how is the elevation, et cetera. And what points are you explored? So you take the golfer out exploring. Now,
fred as we like to see it. The third dimension is what I like to call the You know, that's when you create the the The third dimension is giving it the body. Yes, so it's you have the the emotional
graph. What am I gonna do with you on this three D graph now, And it's how I like to see it is like creating a great play, a great theatrical play, an artistic movie, an eighteen whole chapter book, or you're gonna start with the rising action, the plot, the rising action, the climax, the surprising ending, or the how all of that
structure is how I design a golf course. And I'm thinking of these holes where maybe I'm gonna be a little bit easy on you on whole number one, two and three, and then I'm gonna pick it up a little bit, and then we're gonna arrive to eight and nine or seven and eight.
Then I'm gonna let you rest. I'm gonna pick You're gonna pick up a couple of of bogies that you left out there with maybe a birdie, but then I'm gonna take it away on this So I'm thinking about this story and again, and you saw it on where I broke down the tobacco road. That was like whole number one on tobacco roads, like boom right in your face. Let me. I mean, so, would you like to see that murder scene on the front right when you when you're sitting down to watch
a movie. Boom, murder scene is gone. You're there, You're like shocked. That's the beauty of Tobacco Road. I'm personally would love it if we start on the back nine, as I said, because it starts a little bit, you know, dog leggie, and then you start getting up to thirteen, where now you see the tobacco Road ish uh you know plot coming and you're like, holy moly. So but I love I love what Mike Strands did with the you know, I love it as well. It's
just it's just, how are you designing this movie? How are you writing this book? Bread? That is the whole secret of great artistic golf course architecture. Whoa, um, okay, another time out. We'll be right back. You said so much. I don't even know where to go um on this that. Um. I love that you said nuisance. I love that you said nuisance and not nuance. That when you're designing for golf courses, UM that you create nuisance for a golfer, for their eye for what
they're approaching. Um that they may not discover until they've played that course a couple of times. They just thought it was a hard hole. But now, oh, you put that nuisance there and that becomes the nuance. I just love that. I think that's so great. So when you're designing, you're using your movie analogy. Here are you designing in two or three acts? Is it nine holes and nine holes and nine holes or is it six six hole six holes? It could be. Usually usually what we do is
think about the six holes, six holes and six holes. As a matter of fact, one of my new concepts is the butterfly golf, which is four loops of six. But you know, we can we can, we can get that to that later. But uh, usually it's a six and it's not only a six. It's it doesn't mean that it's from hole one to six. It just means that six holes are going to be challenging. Six holes are going to be medium or or or, and then six there
could be a uh, you know, challenge. Take a breath, relax, you know, kind of like just you just have to hit this ball and you'll be fine. You'll you'll you'll have an easy bogie or or an easy part depending or or or an easy birdie depending on your ability, and uh and get get some get some strokes back. But that is all of this adventure with the emotional graph that we and we actually have an emotional graph. I mean I actually draw it from what I think the messages when you're
when you're playing the golf course. So all of this comes into into effect. Now if you want to get technical. Now we're talking about sustainability, the the the the the balance between science and art, in in in in relationship to nature. U. We're talking about shot values. You know, we're talking about am I giving you? We have like a little of fifty shots that I'd like to It's it's kind of like a fifty shot exam that we also have when we're designing sou Have I have I? Am I asking
you for this shot, for that shot, for this shot? Have I? You know, do you have a a fade lie two way to uh to a draw green? Have I asked you for that? So? But that now those are the nuances. Now it's like, okay, now I'm gonna start asking you. But again, what is the brief? Is this a player's course? Is this a more challenging or is this a resort style golf course. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put the ball underneath your feet a lot if you land on the fairway. Yes, So it's different,
it's different askings for a different type of audience. Now, one thing that I love, Fred, and I like to say this as well, is that I love that our golf courses or that that golf, which is a beauty in architecture is I love how it changes with your sense of you. You play, you play well. I'm the best architect in the world. You play bad. I'm horrendous at architecture. But that's the beauty I want. I mean, I learned this. It's since we were in since I
studied regular architecture. The cathedrals in the Middle Ages were done to make you minuscule as a human being. Yeah, yes, so all of that, I mean that it had basically two points. One was that the okival Gothic architecture could reach the sky, yes, But the other one was working with the scale, with a human scale to make you feel like this. So that all of that psyche behind the architecture, behind the proportion, behind the rhythm, behind the balance, that is very important. I take that to
be architecture beautiful. Wow, you so much discussed with you. You're You're definitely coming back. I just want you to know you're definitely coming back because there's so much to discuss looking but we're not done. We're going to keep going here. What has there ever been conversation? Has there ever been a discussion among golf course architects and even golf course developers on creating courses because you know, people's time is valuable, and a lot of complaints about golf taking
too much of your day, taking too long to play. So right now, we're in a world of eighteen holes where you play nine holes or you play eighteen holes, you know, like and you know, if you're if you're in a country club, it's like I'm gonna play three holes today, That's okay. But for most of us, it's like, I'm gonna play nine today. I'm gonna play an eighteen hole course. What about the idea?
And I know maybe design wise, it's too difficult because the topography or even clubhouse design of I want to play six holes today, I'm gonna play twelve holes today, I'm gonna play eighteen. So instead of a two hour or a four hour round, or a two and a half and a five hour round, we're talking about I'm going for an hour and a half. Today, I'm gonna go for three hours. I'm gonna go for the Unless you're a member of a country club, that doesn't happen or seldom doesn't happen.
Now, now these golf courses are starting really pop up, which is great, but you have to yeah, but not not not that notchcome. They're starting to pop up, but you have to go back to history. I mean five hundred years ago, three hundred years ago, golf was played in any hole there is. I mean the first the first opens in in
in the British Isles were played in Prestwick with twelve holes. Saint Andrews as as you probably saw in the video, Saint Andrews was twenty two holes, So I mean, what just you know, the eighteen became the norm and then became the rule, and then now it's championship and it evolved to that, which is fair enough. But then you're right, the best the commodity, that the high, the art art, time is very valuable and we
have known that, especially all this pandemic part. I think we all learned that how to appreciate and how we can manage our time and our priorities so, yes, you're right. You know the problem is that when you're in the golf course, I don't care. You can wait for twilight, and they still charge you for an eighteen whole twilight. Why don't you charge me six? Why don't you charge me? You know? Uh, you know, three bucks a hole, five bucks a hole. I don't know.
But let's get into other types of operations, other types of you know, it would be great if I can just if it's four thirty and I'm like, I'm done here with Fred, I'm gonna go play six holes. Hopefully that could happen. But no, I have to pay the full on the full price of Twilight for an eighteen hole. So that's that's another story that you know, it's in operations that I would love for it to change. You can charge my hole, et cetera. On certain days. I have
no idea because it's not my department. But what is my partment? My part of this solution, Fred, is that we have created since twenty seventeen, we have been designing for the non golfer. I don't I don't know how how how where you are about that? But we started to create wellness golf. We've designed a few concepts and that is why. And we've been very lucky in the past years to be uh you know, mentioned as as some or top five or top ten or whatever of innovative architecture visionaries, et
cetera. On top of the sustainability, because you can also argue the sustainability. But what did we do, what did we do or what we were thinking and in our design studio in twenty seventeen is hey, you know, golf is time consuming, Golf is judgmental, Golf is intimidating, uh price at centa, etcetera. And it takes a long, large piece of land, so developers can only create a huge piece of land or not, so
there's a higher risk. We started to for the non golfer, which is, you know, all of these factors, Let's get the grandmother to play with the grandson, Let's get the mother to play with the daughter. Let's get all of these that you don't see in a country club. So we started to design wellness golf, which would love for you guys, say, if you hashtag wellness golf, a lot of things will come up or in our in our instagram. So wellness golf multipurpose golf, golf lounge or the
pit. All of these we started to design. And then and and funny that you mentioned it, because then the other concept that we created. You're gonna love this. I don't know if you can see it there, but it says Butterfly golf, and this is Butterfly golf. Four loops of six. So how many loops do you need for an eighteen old golf course. Three? So that means that if you create four loops of six and you're only using three, you can play different golf course every day. And since
since whole note since there are four whole number ones. I don't know if I'm explaining myself, but you these are not combinations. They're actually permutations because you don't care where number one starts as long as it starts one, one, one, one. So you play this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, and then this one, this one, this one is La la twenty four different
golf courses with six more holes. So we we actually think and we're very positive, we're actually working on a couple of golf courses now that have the butterfly golf concept. It was you know, invented, created and designed by my piece of golf, and we love and we feel very proud to create these concepts never before seen. And so with these four loops of nine, now you can go and play six holes fret. You can play nine, you can play twelve, you can play twenty four, you can play eighteen.
And if you're there for twenty four days, I will promise you those twenty fours, you will play a different circuit. That's an incredible concept. And I promise the golf smarter listeners, the audio listeners, I'll create a short video on just what he explained, because he was holding up a diagram that explains what the butterfly golf is. So keep looking in social media for
the short video that i'll put out. I'll put in YouTube and LinkedIn and Instagram, TikTok, I'll put it all over the place so you can see exactly what Aggie was just talking about. That was brilliant. I love that concept. You've mentioned multiple times. Sustainable courses. Now, yes, that was probably not a word used in original golf course design. It's probably more of a twenty first century concept. What exactly do you mean by a sustainable
golf course? And why? And I apologize for asking two questions at once, but why is it important? It is important because we need to create a conscience. I mean, you know, to goo, the golf courses weren't even alter to be used. The links you had, You had the sheep, you know, grazing, grazing the grass. You had the fertilizers from the birds. You had, you had sandy soil. We're talking about the British Links. Yes, you had sandy soil. Now industrial revolution comes
up, you know, late eighteen hundreds, Industrial revolution. Guess what, Now we can create the first golf course in in clay so let instead of traveling for twelve hours on train to play the Scottish Links, now we can have our first golf course here in London. So the men, you know, human beings, ego. Now it's like, hey, let's bring it over here. So now we alter the sequence of nature. Now we can
build whatever we want because we discovered or made machines. And curiously, that's when golf proper golf architecture began, because prior to that it was nature and it was actually just laying out a golf course. When that golf, when that industrial revolution comes up, the Harry Colts of the world started to make plans because he needed to plan to build it on play and create these movements that only nature could do. So to emulate nature, he had to plan.
And that's when the first you know, paper plans began, when we took these golf courses away from natural links. So, uh, there's a big debate, at least in my book. I mean, I create my own debate something. So there's I mean for me is did we do the right thing of forcing golf on other parts of the world. I mean,
should Lake Las Vegas ever existed? Should should you know? Or should have we played like tennis in clay and in different types of of surfaces instead, because the the you know, the the game, the rules, the the the honorable games could stay the same regardless of where you're playing. It doesn't matter. So anyway, that is something that we took as human beings because we could, and we took it all over the world and it was beautiful,
it was great, and we're all passionate about this sport. So now forward years years later and we have you know, I mean golf contributes a lot. To be honest, Fred, golf contributes a lot. There is there is, I mean and justin, justin, And if you take it into account, the it's the sport that that creates or generates most employment of any other sport. When it comes to maintenance, the maintenance crewe, the operations crew, there's you know, there's a lot of dozens of people working
there. So you asked me about sustainability. The more that we advance, the more people that we're here, the more blah blah blah all of that you have to create a better conscience. We have to eat less meat because deforestation is one of the highest you know, of the most important things in in in what we're in in our in our in our world. We're deforestation because of the meat industry. We have all this methane coming up. We have a lot of things. So meat lovers, you know, if we
don't measure ourselves, it's only going to become a bigger problem. But I don't want to deviate from no preaching. Now you have a golf that I'll do that. No, no, no, no, So now you have golf where it actually you know, yes, there is deforestation, Yes, there is, but there's also a lot of beautiful things that a golf course does. Uh. In the now, let's let's let's remind ourselves what is sustainability. Sustainability is economic? Is it? Is it supporting the economy,
the social aspect, and the natural aspector or ecological aspect. Nothing that we do fred as human beings is going to be completely sustainable. Even even sustainable projects are not sustained or I mean they're not. You know, we we're gonna have all to something. We're going to alter something. So what are we gonna do? We just need to think about the best way to alter the less amount of of altering that is. That is what we need to do. So so a golf course. You know why did we create the
butterfly golf concept? It's because you know, resorts that have thirty six holes, they won't need them anymore. You can do twenty four and have more variety than a thirty six hole golf course. So depending on we designed this when we were doing the Septica in uh in, Mexico, which is a
very nature friendly and sensitive area. So why why would I why on top of everything that we were designing, we wanted to disencourage more golf resorts to come in and and and and be the next you know, Cankoon or the next whatever. We wanted to disencourage that. So what do we do? We created the four loops of six so that we can have twenty four golf courses in one Why would anybody else come here and put another golf course as
your neighbor. So those are the things that we thought about when we were designing this. It's it's very tricky for it because every single place is different, every single situation is different, every single social aspect is different, economic is different. So what country are you doing it? In that state? In that country, what state are you doing it? Everything changes. You just have to be conscious of what you are creating and doing and ask yourself
is this leaving some sort of legacy, some sort of lesson too? So from here people can grow in a more sustainable way. That is at least my version of it. And you know, Fred, everything here is only how I think. It's your house. It's your house. That's that's well. I have to be conscious of taking another break because we want to let anyone know what happened in golf smart Mulligans this coming week, so we'll be right back. This week is number four of nine in our Tony Manzoni series
to help you launch your new golf season. This week is the second part of taking your game to the next level, one club at a time. You know, when you're in and around the green, which is a scoring area, whether you're pitching the ball on, you want to do it the simplest way, the way that even if you miss hit, it doesn't become
a catastrophe. When you start lifting that club up and bringing it down on the ball and a more steeper angle, the miss hit is going to be horrendous, or your line driving over the green into a lake or something like that. Where when you're using a more level to the ground stroke, if you hit a little bit sin or a little bit sad, it doesn't hurt you. That's golf Smarter. Mulligan's episode two hundred three, which is number
four of nine featuring our friend and mentor Tony Manzoni. Check the show notes to learn how to get Tony's book The Lost Fundamental One Simple Move, Better Golf Forever, and gain access to his video of the same name. Please subscribe for free to our sister podcast that revisits the best of the Golf Smarter podcast, and it's called Golf Smarter. Mulligan's being released every Friday from wherever
you listen to your favorite podcasts. Aggie, I wrote so many different questions about what I wanted to discuss with you today, and we haven't touched on any of it because everything is just flowing. So what you've mentioned multiple times the video, I've seen the video. I don't know if anybody else has seen the video or what you're talking about. Can I make the video available or is this something that's uh, what's the deal? And tell me about
the video? No, of course, it was just we It's with Eric anders Eric anders Land a dear friend of mine, and we've done so many things together that we have become blinder, uh puddy. He content maker, Yes, a great storyteller, a fantastic storyteller and uh so, so he creates content and and and we we created a segment which I think it was never before seen, where we break down five golf holes, five of my favorite golf holes. So we're just breaking them down. You know what I
think about this? You know about about you know Cyprus points fifteen, about the seventeen at TPC sawgrass Uh one of our designs and Tempico, so we breaked out five. It's on Eric Anders feed I mean, we've gotten some great, great reviews, some great feedback, and we were just having fun doing it. And that's that's the whole point, is it. Fred. I really love this this era of podcasting and creating content because it's it's not
you know, you're free to talk. It's not elaborative. It's just a couple of guys having fun that you know, talking about what they think or their experience in life. And hopefully on this one and on the way we can we can wake up an aspiring golf architect out there, an aspiring superintendent, anybody that wants to come into this beautiful, um and unique golf case. Well, I will definitely then put the h I'll put the video on the blog post for at golf smarter dot com for for this episode, so
everyone should check that out. It's really entertaining and it's really interesting. You talk about your five favorite golf holes in the world, right, and I had one I wanted to ask you about specifically as it's a Mexico golf course and the only TPC course in Mexico, TPC Danzante Bay in just south of Loretto. Are you familiar with that course? I have played there six times now because we're time share owners. We went to that place once, went
we're in. We absolutely love Danzante Bay and the Via del Palmar Islands of Loretto. It's gorgeous um, it's a great golf course. There's great hiking there. The water Sea of Cortez, which I now understands called the See of Mexico because we don't think Cortez was a nice guy. So the Sea of Mexico, which Jacques Cousteau called the aquarium of the world, it is the aquarium best world. And I've snorkeled in many places around the world.
Is the best snorkeling I've ever done in my life. So number seventeen TPC Donzante Bay takes my breath away every single time I come up over the top. And then there you have it, this incredible hole. Part three you want to please, I would love your feedback and your thoughts on that whole. Well, I'll tell you something, Fred. It is designed by a dear friend of mine as well, Reese Jones and I've known Reese for a few years. I've I've I've played I had the privilege of playing with him
National Golf Lakes. So so I'm biased. But regardless of the bias, it is a phenomenal design and it's something that we also have to you know, we don't have to, but let's let's mention it. It's it's a it's a different you know, this era. Uh. They're pioneers in the era of you know, student of the game architects. You know, uh, Rhys Jones, Robert Trent Jones, you know these uh. And and now there's a great generation of golf golf architects out there that are just killing
it. In the past uh seven, eight, ten years. Maybe there's a new generation that that is just you know, creating these masterpieces. And I have to say Don Santeve is one of them. And that part three behind there, that's sitting right on that flat top overlooking the Sea of Cortez. Uh, it's actually uh the other the official name is the Gulf of the Golf of Baja calt for you, not the golf, the Golf Cortez
is also there. The golf the Gulf of Baja So you have the Gulf of Baja, Sea of Cortez, a clarium of the world, call it whatever, just call it. You know, it's we have a saying an architecture. Exactly, we have a saying an architecture. Talk bad or talk good, but talk. If you're not talking about about our architecture, that means that we're just a plain regular guy and we don't want that. So uh so uh it's a great piece, great work of art out there in
Loreto. It's a little bit difficult to get to unless you're from La So yeah, there's direct flights from La but other than that, coming up from Mexico, it's very difficult to get up to Loreto. But it's a beautiful
place. And if you go up to Senta by car, come down, come down to to La Paz, all of that inside of the Baja is a beautiful, beautiful piece and and unspoiled piece of so well, yeah, thing was bored us like crazy, but um, the beautiful part about Baja And a lot of people probably don't know this, especially if they're not in California. Baha, California is practically the same length miles north to south as
California's it's big. Yeah, it's big, exactly. The one of my favorite fun facts about Baja is when you get to Cabos on Lucas, which is the southernmost point of Baja. If you leave Baja and just head due south on Planet Earth, the first piece of land you come to is Antarctica.
There's no believe you're going straight down the Pacific. Yeah. Yeah, You're going to the belly through the belly of the Pacific Ocean, which if you take the if you take Planet Earth and flip it like and you look at the middle of the Pacific Ocean, you barely see land on the side. It's pretty exciting. Go to Google Earth and just just go like this to the Earth to the Pacific Ocean. That's a very good one. And
so you're right, Loretto is tough to get to. There are flights from Houston and from Los Angeles, right, but well there San Francisco is during their high season, so only between I think it's April to Novem no no other way around November to April till April. You can get a direct flight from San Francisco. It's only two and a half hours. It's much closer to Dowai and much Hawaii. Yeah. Well, and and kudos to Rees Jones, a great job. It's not you know. And here's an example,
like number whole number one. They're very wide, fairway, very forgiving, and it's a resort course, so you're gonna want to play it and go, oh yeah, I want to come back and play it again. And generally you'll do that, you know, while you're still there. If you spend a week there, get to play a couple of times because you're gonna spend up a lot of time in the water too. Um. Yeah, I'm glad that I'm glad that you appreciate. I'm glad you've played it.
I can't wait to get back to that course. I just just love it. All right. Let's wrap it up with this one. Who are your idols in the design world of golf course architecture? Oh uh not Golden Age of architecture Alistair Mackenzie Number one. A lot of inspiration from from Alister from his books Spirit of St. Andrew's just unbelievable. I would have to say, uh, Tom Fazio. Tom Fazio is another. I consider him one of my mentors. I had the privilege of working at Cadencia with them
me as a junior project manager. But I had the chance to do everything down his first golf course south of the border in Kerencia, in Cabo. So I had the privilege and the honor to work with that fantastic group and including uh, mister Fazio. So I've always you know, I get I get pumped up when I when I talk about his his architecture. I think the the the aesthetics, the quality that I learned from that golf course,
which I think that I I I grabbed and and made it mine. And uh and and that's the quality that I'm looking for whenever we were out there working. So um uh that that is that is that and uh and right now I'm uh, I mean, I'm I really admire everything that you know, the new generation that I mentioned is is out there doing. I mean that David McClay kid, who's another a good friend of mine. I admire
his work a lot. David Kid is awesome, you know. Um, you know, uh, you know corn Crunchhaw, they're killing it out there. I really like what they're doing. And uh and you have you know, have the Phillips and the dogs and all this this great group that's coming out and just saying, hey, there is the new Golden age of architecture. One hundred years later. There is this great generation which I would love to be and feel, I like to feel a part of where we're just
you know, disrupting a little bit. Uh uh, so you know some or or you know, hold onto the golden age of architecture. I'm not like that. I think that maybe we haven't discovered the best way to golf architect so I'm trying to do that. But but at the end, it is it is a very great generation that has that, that is out there doing some fantastic sustainable I think we'll see families do this like we've seen in the past, the Fasios and the and the Jones, you know who,
multiple generations of designers. Are we going to see that ever? Again? Hope so well, I'm hoping for my kids to come in. I didn't want to lead you into that, but okay, part of it, of course. I mean, there's nothing I would be honored if they're still young, They're still very young, but I would be honored if if, if, if there's a family legacy left behind. But uh, you know, the the of course, I would love I would love that, and I
would love that to continue. Yes, I mean you know, uh, there's a big difference between marketing on a golf course and architecture and and and now I think you know, clients and and and developers have noticed that.
It's it's a it's a difference. It's you can have the celebrity designers, you know, you know mark it, let let let that that's yeah, let the name sometimes depending on the brief, let You're depending on the brief, depending on the purpose, and what is the why on the you know, the business plan it is and what is the why perfect fit and then the other why. You have now this great option of other you know, students of the game than the architect which is which is just a different way
of doing it. Nothing. It doesn't matter who's best, who's better who It depends if it's a great fit, it's perfect for that what we're looking for. So that that's that's all there is. That The beautiful thing is that there's just a lot of options that Aggie, this has been so much fun. I really I really am going to bring you back. I cannot wait to have another conversation. You're a pizza Pizza golf, right, I appreciate it. Pisa golf p a z a golf dot com. Check out
his stuff, um, follow him on Instagram. Uh and come yeah at at at all right Instagram and um, please come to golfsmarter dot com and you'll check out the video. Um on the blog post, you'll check out the video that he did. That. Boy was this entertaining. Auggie, thank you so much. Really enjoyed it. Can't wait to have another one, Fret. Thank you very much. I really appreciate your interest in our work because it's not just Augie Pissa. I have a beautiful, beautiful team
behind me. Uh and uh and I'm just very grateful for this opportunity to share a little bit of my thoughts and the way I think. So thank you very much for those of you who've been writing to me over the last ten days. Thank you for your patience. Is Today is my first back and from vacation and was met with computer problems that took all of my morning and lunch, which delayed production of this episode. I will be responding to
your emails in the next twenty four hours. So we just returned from our outrageous adventure that was kind of like being on Safari, but this time we were on the west coast of Baja California in the water, interacting with mother and baby gray whales. The keyword here is interacting, as this is the only place in the world where mother whales encourage their newborn calves to go up to these twenty four foot boats with no more than seven people aboard and literally
encourage the calves to get petted and kissed and sung too by humans. I can't think of other than your dogs and you know, domesticated animals. I can't think of any wild animals that encourage their babies to interact with humans. It's outrageous and it was so much fun and so exciting. I love that stuff. I'm working on a video that we'll get posted, but if you're interested in learning more about it, check out Baja ba Ja Baja ecotours dot
com. As i'm recording this, it's still raining here in northern California, but it's supposed to calm down starting tomorrow, thank goodness, because I'm really having some serious golf withdrawals, having only played a couple of times since November. I know you folks in the Midwest and the East. I know you go months without playing every year, but I don't, so this is really hard for me. I want to thank Tom Thompson of Delphi, Indiana for
opening up today's episode is a golf Smarter ambassador. Tom chose to receive Tony Manzoni's video of the Lost Fundamental, and you can too. Send an email to Golf Smarter podcast at gmail dot com and request our simple instructions to leave a voicemail at our toll free golf Smarter line, and when you do, you can choose one of three gifts, including a dozen balls with a golf Smarter logo from Odin Golf, the golf brand that sponsors and pays everyday golfers.
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